Article on Emirates Accident

[neville_nobody]

Sounds like the powers at be are trying push the fatigue issues out of the way reading between the lines. I find it amazing that there are no corrective fatigue measures being put in place by Emirates only more computers. It seems ironic that in one line they are saying pilots shouldn't rely on computers too much and in the next line they say 'we are putting an extra computer on board'

Some interesting facts and quotes:

The ATSB is continuing its investigation into the incident, but says there is no proof that pilot fatigue played a part in the accident.

The the captain and FO had flown 98.9/89.7 hours in the last 28 days.

The Captain said he hadn't slept well because of the circadian rhythm issues.

That alone would suggest there just might be some fatigue issues not to mention the fact the flight was leaving around midnight. Yet the ATSB think there are no fatigue issues??? What do they need, someone to fall asleep at rotate before they can 'prove' there are fatigue issues.

The devil is in the data | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,26056145-23349,00.html)

[Goat Whisperer]

No there is no proof, but the inference is very strong.

If they don't draw conclusions (at least) that fatigue likely contributed to this accident, I ask what further signs would be required to assign likely cause to fatigue?

I haven't heard that Emirates are looking at bringing their flight/duty limits closer to international standard practices. The capt was on 98.9 hrs at the start of the duty, and would have been 114 on arrival, not legal under most work practices.

[framer]

It makes me wild that they ignore fatigue.
Also statements like Smith says the key lesson from the Emirates near miss is for pilots not to over-rely on computers. "It is a warning for all pilots to be very careful when they put something in a computer and we have to be careful not to overly rely on computers for calculations in aviation. are not worth the paper they're written on. All airline pilots understand that inputting correct data is important. They all understand that they make many many more small errors when they are not well rested.
Fatigue played a significant role in this accident and the ATSB needs to say as much. If it does not it is playing a role in future fatigue related accidents.:mad:

[BombsGone]

Yep the fact fatigue was over looked in the article stood out. When you're rested a simple cross check of the numbers should be sufficient. When everyone involved is knackered it doesn't work so well. Solution: punish the crew and add more computers?

[Mr. Hat]

Its high time the relevant authorities and community remove their hands from their eyes and face up to the facts and reality of fatigue and give sleep its rightful place at the top of the safety chain. Until they do another ML is just around the corner.

I put sleep and rest at the top of my list.

[Kelly Slater]

If the pilots had close to 100 hours each for the month and they fly augmented crew, does this mean that they had each spent closer to 200 hours airborne in the preceding month?

[Art Vanderlay]

No it doesn't! In most regulatory frameworks, long haul crew count flight time from chocks OFF to chocks ON, irrespective of whether it is augmented crew or not.

[FGD135]

Yet the ATSB think there are no fatigue issues???

You guys need to brush up on your comprehension.

The ATSB said there was "no proof" of fatigue. This does not necessarily mean they don't think fatigue was involved.

I'm sure they would strongly suspect that fatigue was involved. They just can't prove it.

Understand now?

[neville_nobody]

And hence my point what would you need to prove fatigue??

Do you think the Captain would make the same mistake at 1000 am on a Monday morning in Dubai after 5 days off?

Do we need to spear one in somewhere before the regulator gets tough about fatigue. Lets face it, flying is a unique job that at times requires some serious brain power. That brain power is not necessarily available if you are half asleep.

[Hempy]

It's wishy washy. If the crew had been drinking and were subsequently breathalysed they could say "there is proof alcohol played a part in this accident"...because it can be quantifiably measured. Short of someone actually falling asleep, how do you measure fatigue and hence prove it played a part?

Don't be too rough on the ATSB, as others have said, it's not that fatigue wasn't an issue, it's just that they cant 'prove' it..

[Praise Jebus]

How do you prove fatigue?

EK use third party rocket scientists somewhere in the US to check fatigue suspected rosters. And how do they do this??? they use a computer of course! (which we should be careful not to overly rely on etc etc...)

[Goat Whisperer]

I'm sure that the ATSB staff don't have their heads buried in sand. I'm sure they are aware that fatigue is a likely contributor, I just wonder how much more obvious a case would need to be to justify them assigning fatigue as a contributing factor.

While the airline in question is happy for a pilot's error to be blamed, they would be less happy for their extreme approach to pilot productivity to be blamed.

[ferris]

Fatigue is a grey area. I've been thinking about this myself, lately. We've all had instances where we are just tired, and others where you were so tired it is akin to being "drunk", and furthermore, you can move between these states quite quickly and unconsciously. I know research has been done in the trucking industry- just wondering if there was any way to quantify fatigue in a physical sense eg. hormone levels/blood sugar levels/reaction time response etc.?
V. difficult to check/test for; as soon as you are aware you are being checked, you 'wake up' a bit!
Maybe a super-sophisticated "dead-mans switch"?

[Mr. Hat]

Its a useless discussion we need a hull loss for it to get any attention. Thats how we operate here. Reactive measures.

Just sit and wait.

[heres trouble]

This may be a silly question, but will the Captain and F/O be able to work again?..I mean are they stuffed because of one mistake(well a few mistakes in one)?I read in the article that when they returned to Dubai they were handed pre written letters of resignation and yet the other 2 crew members have been retained..

If so,What other industry is there where if you make one mistake you are gone(granted it was a pretty huge muff up)?It doesnt seem right...They really as an Airline need to take some responsibility and care for their employees, not just sack them to make themselves look good...:mad:

[KRviator]

If so,What other industry is there where if you make one mistake you are gone(granted it was a pretty huge muff up)?It doesnt seem right...They really as an Airline need to take some responsibility and care for their employees, not just sack them to make themselves look goodA certain large rail operator in Australia will do exactly that.

Then again, this certain very large rail operator thinks nothing of rostering crews upto 99.9 on that stupid FAID program, nor expecting traincrews to work well over 180 hours a month at any ungodly hour they demand...The best bit is the time off "resting" away from home..."minimum" of 7.0 hours, signoff to signing on again...And you can work upto 12 hours each way.:eek:

Then they have the gall to sack crews who make a mistake when they're tired?:ugh:

Well, at least the money's good...Maybe it should be called Hazard pay instead of a salary...

[NO LAND 3]

In most regulatory frameworks, long haul crew count flight time from chocks OFF to chocks ON, irrespective of whether it is augmented crew or not.
I am under the impression this should be the case for any JAR compliant airline. This is purely my opinion based on trawling through JAR regs which are themselves a little obtuse. The only occasion augmenting hours are not counted is for the purposes of logging time towards qualifying for a higher grade of license. I believe this was the subject of a certain GCAA letter a while ago.
I'd be interested in others interpretations.

[plasticmerc]

I was going to use the recent article in flight global but I see there is a thread on the topic already.
Airbus says that a long haul pilot only average 3-3.5 hours stick time a month if lucky?
They have systems for everything, lights, bells and whistles and eicas/ecams just to tell you someone wants you or something is wrong.
If so what is the major cause of fatigue in pilots....boredom?
I guess watching all the latest movies and getting to sleep while at work does cause fatigue.

In this industry we all have a lives screwed by forever chasing the clock, minimum rest periods, constant phone calls and more important life matters why should it be any different for pilots.

When I or someone whom I am working with are tired we increase the level of checks for all tasks be it mundane or more complicated.
How can someone say I am tired then mis calculate the wieght of an aircraft by 100 Tonnes. Don't the figures get checked by the captain (if F/O) inputs data or vice versa or is there no HF practice in the cockpit?

I can hear the shotguns bieng loaded now!!!

[rowdy trousers]

plastimac, this is a professional pilots rumour network, not a ******'s forum - bang bang.

[Keg]

I can hear the shotguns bieng loaded now!!!

That's because you were the one loading it....right before you put it in your mouth and pulled the trigger by posting your ignorance on this thread! :rolleyes: :ugh: :E

[Maaate]

Don’t you just love journalists who include phrases like: This 100-tonne difference was the equivalent to the aircraft having an extra 20 African elephants on board, or a fully grown adult blue whale.

I think Mr Stewart missed a number of opportunities to provide suitable analogies. For clarification, I offer the following addenda to the article:

“An Emirates Airlines Airbus A340-500 bound for Dubai was roaring down the floodlit runway for take-off when it became clear that something was wrong.” The roaring sound was equivalent to 902 African lions on heat, or 48,316 Collingwood supporters……… possibly also on heat.

“For these few terrifying moments, Emirates Airlines flight 407, carrying 257 passengers and 18 crew, simply vanished from official record, leaving those in the tower to pray that they would not hear an explosion in the suburbs to the south.” The number people on board was equivalent to over 12 Rugby League teams (excluding reserves. If this number of rugby league players were to have been eliminated in a single accident, the NRL competition would need to be cancelled

"It was an incredibly serious incident," says Dick Smith, a former head of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. "They were very lucky that they did not end up in a major accident with a lot of people losing their lives." One ‘former head of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority’ commenting on A340 operations is equivalent to 8.7 Paris Hiltons commenting on the Global Financial Crisis.
“One of these was Roman Korobitson, who was travelling with his wife Irena and their two-year-old son to a family reunion in Russia.” The ‘human interest’ value of a Russian family is equivalent to 0.07 orphans, or 0.24 vacuous celebrities.

“At 49 seconds past 10.30pm the Emirates plane began its roll to the south down the illuminated 3657m runway. In the tower, air traffic controllers became alarmed by the plane's slow speed as it neared the take-off point, but cockpit recordings suggest the pilots did not notice anything wrong. “ 3657m is equivalent to 111 adult blue whales laid end to end behind a ‘research’ vessel. (The adult blue whale is commonly used as the standard unit of measurement in aviation weight and balance calculations, except in certaind third world countries, where the older African Lion is still used. ICAO has mandated that by 2013, all signatories must convert to the ABW scale. Until then, conversion tables must be used by pilots who cross international boundaries.)

“The city's newsrooms were largely empty, with hundreds of journalists and editors partying at the annual media awards night, the Quills, at Crown Casino, oblivious to the huge news story about to unfold on their doorstep.”The noise from hundreds of journalists partying is equivalent to an A340 roaring down a runway - or 48,316 Collingwood supporters……… possibly on heat.

At Melbourne airport, a 42-year-old Danish pilot was sitting in the cockpit of his Emirates Airbus with his Canadian co-pilot running through their preflight checklist in preparation for their 14 1/2-hour flight to Dubai. A 42-year-old Danish is equivalent to a very stale pastry. 14 ½ hours is equivalent to an NFL Superbowl game.

[TWT]

Great post.

I can't wait for the rash of Grand Final stories with the mind numbing details of the numbers of pies,hot dogs,beers sold during the events.'Statistical journalism' is one of its least enthralling forms.

[AlJassmi]

Loved it Maaate. Though i might point out that the writer was "Cameron Stewart, Associate editor" at the Australian rather than Ben Sandilands.

[Maaate]

AlJassmi

Indeed it was. Edit done, and apologies to Mr Sandilands.

Maaate

[positivegee]

Excellent post Maaate, I can't wait for our company to convert to the ABW scale. I find converting litres to pounds to kilos all too confusing.:ok:

[Dick N. Cider]

The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator (http://www.aussiebloggers.com.au/planestory/planestory.html)

Need I say more...

DNC