Why would you do this in an R44?

[heli-cal]

I just came across this photograph and was astonished to see that it looks as if a line has been secured from the Police R44, to the steel handrail of the stricken vessel! :eek:

Why would you secure a line from the R44 to the steel handrail of a stricken vessel which may move without warning?

It looks like an invitation to dynamic rollover!

Single engine, no floats, over water, line attached! :confused:

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/21/boat_zoom.jpg

[darrenphughes]

Dude, they're cops. Why would you need any more explanation about their capacity to operate intelligently!!

[VeeAny]

A quick zoom in, in paint shop pro seems to show the lower end has a grappling hook and the upper end is being held by someone and is not attached to the 44.

I guess they know why they were there and if they were saving someone then I believe what they did is a commendable improvisation. Risky yes, but letting go of the rope is an option unlike in the Jetranger video were they tied it on.

[Edited to Add]
The boat had an engine failure and drifted over a dam and two guys were killed.
The story is here Two presumed dead as boat slips over dam (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/21/loc_damdrown21.html)

[Gordy]

Two presumed dead as boat slips over dam


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By David Eck
Enquirer contributor


HAMILTON - Two people were presumed dead Friday after their boat apparently lost power and went over a low-level dam on the Great Miami River in Hamilton.

The victims were identified as Kevin Lodder, 24, of Hamilton, and Danny Brodnick, 49, of Miamisburg, Ohio. According to the Butler County Sheriff's Office, Brodnick was on a test ride in the 26-foot cabin cruiser that he planned to purchase from Lodder Marine in Fairfield.

A third person was able to escape the boat and swim to safety as the large pleasure craft began to drift toward the dam, officials said. None of those in the boat appeared to be wearing life jackets, the sheriff's office said.

"The witnesses are indicating the boat began to stall," said Maj. Anthony Dwyer of the sheriff's office. "Witnesses, along with fire/rescue personnel, did see two bodies in the water."

The accident happened about 2:30 p.m. in front of Miami University's Hamilton campus on the south side of the city.

"We're still looking into this as to why the craft was on the water," Dwyer said. At about 9:30 p.m., the search was called off for the night.

Several relatives or friends of the victims ran to the scene shortly after the accident and started screaming hysterically. They were quickly escorted away by officials.

Rescuers worked for several hours securing the white-and-blue craft as it rested sideways against the dam. Eventually, the boat was pulled onto rocks at the river's western shore.

The bodies remained in the water late Friday afternoon. The river was swollen from recent rain, which made recovering the bodies treacherous, officials said.

"When you get this, the churning motion of the water and the current, it is very difficult," said Hamilton Fire Chief Joe Schutte. "We can't get real close to it."

Water rushed over the dam in a boil. The craft leaned against the dam as water continually slammed into it.

A friend of one of the victims came to the scene to try to help Lodder's family.

"Every time we'd go out, we'd do something fun," said Scott Bryant, of Ross, who had known Lodder for about a year. "He would bend over backward for everybody. He knew everything about boats."

Witnesses said they were helpless as they watched the boat slide over the dam.

Ryan Miller, 16, of Hamilton was fishing on the bank when he saw the boat pulled over.

"All of a sudden it fell over and it threw (the people) into the water," he said. "They were hanging on. I'm sick to my stomach right now."


Full article here (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/21/loc_damdrown21.html)

I suspect the rope was being held in someones hand and they were then dragging the rope to the shore to be pulled by equipment on the ground---but I could be wrong.

[mickjoebill]

Bit early to criticize..

reading between the lines, for all we know the bodies may have been trapped inside the boat and visible to the crew, who may have been unsure if their were survivors trapped inside the craft.

An attempt to pull it upright to save lives would be commendable, given the dangers of such an operation which are well known due to the 206 dynamic roll incident.



Mickjoebill

[ReverseFlight]

I suspect it was just an improvised device in response to an unusual emergency, otherwise you won't see a tether being tied to a flimsy part of the chopper's structure, besides not being directly under its centre of gravity (it's not a proper sling job). It only takes a light tug to roll the chopper into the dam.

[JimBall]

Heli-cal : Single engine, no floats, over water, line attached!

10/10 for observation. Maybe...

ENGINE: So - let's assume it had 2 engines and did the same thing at the same height and an engine went...... are you any happier ?

FLOATS
I suppose they might cushion the impact as the helicopter goes straight down on to the boat. Floats are, of course, immensely useful in fast flowing water over a dam.

LINE
We now know it is held by hand and will cause no problem if let go.

[topendtorque]

unlike in the Jetranger video were they tied it on


Is this the one at alice springs from many years ago to which you refer? if so yes very lucky to live they were.

[VeeAny]

TET

Just in case everyone thinks I am making reference to random videos and expecting everyone has seen them, the video was in a post above mine in this thread and has been removed, and yes its the one you refer too I believe.

GS

[Whirlygig]

I removed it as, in the circumstances, I thought it may have been in bad taste, given the loss of lfe.

If there is anyone who hasn't seen it, it can be found on Youtube.

Cheers

Whirls

[heli-cal]

Heli-cal : Single engine, no floats, over water, line attached!

10/10 for observation. Maybe...

ENGINE: So - let's assume it had 2 engines and did the same thing at the same height and an engine went...... are you any happier ?

FLOATS
I suppose they might cushion the impact as the helicopter goes straight down on to the boat. Floats are, of course, immensely useful in fast flowing water over a dam.

LINE
We now know it is held by hand and will cause no problem if let go.

Thanks for the sarcasm, speculative questions and stating facts known after I made the post.

However, what I asked was Why would you do this in a R44?

Specifically, this R44!

ENGINE: So - let's assume it had 2 engines Then it would not be this R44!

FLOATS There are no floats!

[XV666]

There seems to be a lot of criticism/speculation, but could it be a hand held line from the pax seat, helping to secure the boat landside? Simple procedure to snag the boat with the grappling hook, then pay out the line as the R44 is hover taxied to the shore where the line is then passed to be secured.

I realise that the handrail wouldn't be the strongest point on the boat, but as an interim solution to securing the boat, I'd say that it would make a lot of sense, and wouldn't be nearly as risky as a lot of posts here seem to imply.

Quote from the Enquirer:

Rescuers worked for several hours securing the white-and-blue craft as it rested sideways against the dam. Eventually, the boat was pulled onto rocks at the river's western shore.

[22clipper]

Nice use of that otherwise wasted space at the back of the R44. Think I'd like a big smiley face on the one I hire for when I'm over taking R22s

[JimBall]

Heli-cal: I'll try the direct approach then.
Engine likelihood of failure is minimal. However the point I was making is that even a twin operating at this height would not be immune from a power unit failure and the consequences would be the same as a single - only heavier.
Floats : my point is that, again, in these circumstances floats may actually cause more of a problem. They certainly won't save the aircraft. And the weight of them decreases the performance of the helicopter - thereby increasing risk.

To answer your question - why would you do this in an R44 ? - the answer is to possibly save lives. You also don't know what was outside the frame of the picture - there may have been people in the water (dead or alive). There may have been other craft.

The sarcasm is my way of dealing with misconceptions and the constant circulation of myths. You seem to doubt the reliability of the R44 engine. But where's your proof ? Is it any more unreliable than any other helicopter powerplant ?

Would multiple powerplants be any better in these circumstances ?

[heli-cal]

Do you by any chance live under a bridge?

[R22 HEAVY]

'It looks like an invitation to dynamic rollover!'

You cannot get dynamic rollover unless the aircraft is in contact with the ground. In the hover the aircraft is a free body in space.

The picture sure does heap up a load of trouble for the pilot and possibly passengers if his actions were not very carefully considered.

Be careful out there.

Regards

[Kirt Hood]

You cannot get dynamic rollover unless the aircraft is in contact with the ground. In the hover the aircraft is a free body in space.


But the aircraft is in contact with the ground via the rope unless of course the passenger lets go. But if he hung on for dear life trying to drag the boat or what ever and the heli pulls collective ( with the rope on the outside of the skid) or drifts to the left, how is this any different from snagging a skid on a log or rock etc.? Thus dynamic roll over. Maybe it is called a different term as once the heli drops the left skid beyond the point of getting into mast bumping while trying to stay upright, more or less the same result but with a drop plus what ever happens when one loses the rotorhead. Yikes!!

[JimBall]

You're never more than 2 posts away from a personal insult on Pprune.

It's the Chiswick Flyover actually. Nicely placed under the heli route. And I'm really happy with my cardboard and old supermarket trolley "house" until about November.

Then I'm moving in with you.

[Tarman]

Cardboard ? and a Supermarket trolley ? You are lucky. . . . . there's 10 of us living in a plastic bag on the outside lane of the M4 . . . . . .. . . etc etc etc

[helimutt]

Ok, so how about this. The only way to get a line onto the boat was to take a rope with a hook on the end, carefully lowered down onto the boat handrail, then held (by hand only) as the a/c moves slowly to the shore where the rope can then be attached to a land based hoist/winch etc, and the boat pulled clear? Possible? Only risk would be ropes hanging from helicopters and tail rotors and main blades spinning about.

Job done? A picture paints a thousand words, and on PPRuNe, usually starts a war! :ok:

R22 Heavy, I'd be interested to hear your technical description of Dynamic Rollover. ???

[mickjoebill]

Taking this thread one step further away from from reality,
would a passenger, holding a rope attached to the ground have enough strength to affect normal flight in a perhaps subtle and progressive way for the R44 to roll to a point beyond which the pilot would not be able to regain control?


Mickjoebill

[Um... lifting...]

Towing A Boat By Helicopter :: Whoops Videos (http://www.fugly.com/videos/4874/towing_a_boat_by_helicopter.html)

Can't speak for the R44. Have never flown in a Robinson and don't expect to.
The U.S. Coast Guard actually has published procedures for towing distressed boats by helicopter. I never had one of my crews do it nor have I ever seen nor heard of it being done, but the procedure does indeed exist.
The tow line must be held in hand, is not permitted to be partly or completely wrapped around anything in or on the aircraft, to include the person holding it. If one's hand strength is sufficient to tow a boat, it can be towed. If it isn't... it can't be.

[Canuck Guy]

No need to get all worked up, it's an obvious Photoshop job.

[MartinCh]

helimutt, R22 Heavy never saw and understood why that Jetranger towing the boat for fun suddenly rolled and whacked into water..

I didn't realise the dangers of DR while not directly on the ground, or that it could be, for that matter, until I was told about it by instructor. I actually saw the vid before, but didn't attribute it to DR. The recipe has all the main ingredients.

[Ag-Rotor]

Um...lifting... :confused: Have never flown in a Robinson and don't expect to " Maybe you should try before you go peddling your 2nd hand opinion.:=

[Um... lifting...]

Um...lifting... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif Have never flown in a Robinson and don't expect to " Maybe you should try before you go peddling your 2nd hand opinion.Show me where I expressed an opinion and I'd be delighted to.
I think you'll find I didn't express an opinion one way or another as I said: "I can't speak for the R44" and I didn't.
I spelled out a procedure that exists for other machines. That's kind of different. You might want to read a little slower before you try to tell people what they said.:=(back atcha)
If I were to express an opinion, I might possibly guess that attempting to attach a line to a machine that weighs less than 25% what the smallest machine operated by my old service and has maybe 15% of the power for the purpose of towing anything might not be the best idea in the history of ideas.
But, I'm not expressing an opinion, so if you care to blow a hole in that supposition... fill yer boots.

[toptobottom]

Um... Lifting...

Good answer!

It seems to me that too many Prooners are sitting on the sideline waiting to jump on anything they could remotely consider to be controversial. If a particular contributor dares to express an opinion, he/she shouldn't be flamed for it. If it's factually wrong, it would be nice to be politely corrected - education is one of the key benefits of this forum. I'll probably get flamed for posting this!

TTB

[Ag-Rotor]

This whole thread is about opinions, obviously the dudes in the 44 are trying to achieve some out come :ok: other than their own demise. I read your thread Um...lifting... from toptobottom and can appreciate that you may not have had an opertunity to fly a R44 but go out and do a bit of work in a R44 you may be pleasantly surrprised, its not all about how big it is.

[toptobottom]

Ag-Rotor - you've missed the point.

...but go out and do a bit of work in a R44 you may be pleasantly surrprised, its not all about how big it isUm... Lifting isn't necessarily criticising the R44; he's just saying he doesn't expect to fly one. That could be for all sorts of reasons, not least personal circumstance. Incidentally, my opinion of the R44 is well docuemented (and i fly one every day): it sounds like a tractor and looks like a giraffe, but it's excellent value, versatile and very reliable (in my personal view, before i get flamed ;))

TTB

[John R81]

The "hold in hand" approach Um...Lifting speaks of can still go wrong in an R44 (and other heli's?.....(awaiting flame here)) if the duals are still in place.

If the rope gets under the left collective and goes tight, up comes the collective and it is very hard to repair.

Don't ask how I know.

I assume this method of towing should be "without dual controls fitted..."