Pilots : Regarding VHHH J9 & J1 TO

[MercuryRising]

Should Ground Control clear you to J9 (25L) or J1 (07R) for departure and should you really want the extra 99m that J10 or H1 affords, I request that you make said call to Ground and not to Tower as this decision falls within Ground's jurisdiction. I'm sorry to burden flight crew with this but maybe you will be able to get through to those who don't seem to understand the difference.

Any counter-argument supporting taxi to J9 or J1 is academic as flight crew who see the full length available will invariably ask for it and further, should Ground Control specifically require J9 or J1, then Ground can explain their reasons directly.

[Night Watch]

I think that you are making to big of a deal out of it. I personally don't have a problem with ground control clearing me to J1 or J9, as long as it facilitates a more expeditious departure for either my aircraft or someone else. The aim of the game is to get everyone off the ground and into the air ASAP.

What the big deal if when you are approaching the Holding point and traffic is not a problem, the tower controller clearing you to a different Holding point. Happens is a lot of major airports around the world.

[nitpicker330]

yeah really, having a slow day in the Tower?

If I'm on the GND Freq and I see that the full length is not blocked and might be available I WILL ask.

If I'm on the TWR Freq and I see the full length is not blocked and might be available I WILL ask.

Either way as I'm responsible for the safe operation of my Aircraft I will do/say as I see fit to accomplish said operation.

So, live with it.

Besides, you can ( and do ) say no.

What really annoys me is when you are sitting at the holding point waiting and ground insist you stay on his freq. In bad or marginal weather I should be listening to whats going on the TWR freq for such things as Wind checks, Windshear reports, Wx reports from departed aircraft etc etc. I can't hear any of that if I'm hearing CX 123 requesting pushback from bay E1.

Common Airmanship I would have thought.

And don't tell me I should listen on VHF2, this isn't Dhaka airspace!!

[geh065]

Thats the attitude nitpicker....and you wonder why pilots are so popular. :D

[nitpicker330]

Didn't know we were un-popular as a group?

They are Air Traffic SERVICES aren't they?

They are here to provide the end user ( us ) with a service.

If I see the need to ask for something then they should try and accomodate me within reason. Anytime and anywhere, that's their job.

So what if I ask on the TWR, if it's not available just say NO.

A waste of a thread if you ask me.

[Dragon69]

should you really want the extra 99m that J10 or H1 affords

Have to agree! We are never field length limited and compute our data based on take-off from J1/J9, so why makes things more complicated by requesting J10/H1. If you think an additional 99m is going to make the operation safer you shouldn't really be flying. :ugh::ugh:

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Dragon69, Respectfully,

From ACARS-
PACKS ON
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R J1 = CANNOT
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R H1 = CAN

99 meters in this case makes a BIG difference!

AFL

[hongkongfooey]

Good point AFL, I think my learned colleague should have said " in 90% of cases, " I think he forgot about the 2nd most gutless 4 engine jet in the world ( the 146 being the 1st, of course ). :}

On the other hand, when you ask old mate if he wants the figures for J1/J9 in an A320, and he says " we will not be accepting J1/J9 !! " in a stern voice, well, private pilot comes to mind :hmm:

[BusyB]

With 777's not having bodygear steering it always seemed sensible to me to calculate performance from J9 and turn gently on from J10 so as not to scrub the tires:ok:

[notanotherfivehourstogo]

what about calling CX or Dragon and the rest of the major HK companies and explaining how it works, and they can inform the crew. from my experience very few know that ground controls the J9/10 thing etc as apposed to the tower. If you understand it you can deal with it if you dont then your forever confused nobody's fault live and learn!

[moonbug]

Thanks for the info MercuryRising. Clarification on these matters are always appreciated.:ok:

[Tembani]

Unfortunately, seems there are one or two obnoxious & arrogant tw.ts in the tower. While ago some prima donna cleared us (B747-4) for takeoff on 25L as a VERY heavy B747-4 started his rotate at the other end. I asked for a 1 minute delay, because, besides the obvious, it was a training flight (abinitio handling R/H), & was abruptly informed, that there was "NO SUCH THING" (his words, believe it or not), & that our in trail distance was sufficient. As we were light, elected to roll about 30 sec later anyway. Sent his supervisor an e-mail, with a detailed explanation about wing tip vortices, induced drag etc for his info. Nice reply received- from supervisor!!!!

[The Wraith]

777...no body gear steering?!!!

[BusyB]

Ghostie,
No just a trailing pair of wheels:ok:

[MercuryRising]

Thanks for the opinions and comments.

NA5HTG, I have in the past tried the official route but it was probably to trivial to take further.

D69 your point echoes the official line I have had come back at me but regardless, its human nature that you'll get crew who see the full length available and will want it. There's nothing wrong with both of these viewpoints and all I'm asking is : if flight crew want the full length then please ask Ground as they have jurisdiction ( and I appreciate that asking Ground is not always possible if you've been switched to Tower ).

I know this is not rocket science but Ground should clear traffic to J1 or J9 for one of three reasons, i) they specifically want you to go there or ii) they're a Ground god, take-off data is computed for J1 and J9 and everyone else is an idiot or iii) they've never given it a second thought. By soliciting your comments I'm trying to address the latter.

[Avius]

Jeez...A whole thread for a simple question..Or so would one think !? I know, it's the "cathay way" to discuss things ad nauseam. Well here is my share of ..."it"...;)

I believe that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication and therefore I try to keep things as simple as possible (but not simpler).

It is just a matter of communication. ATC has no idea what our weight or performance on a given day is. Sure there are those controllers, that have been around for a while and understand the difference of a B744 going to TPE vs going to SFO. Unfortunately, ATC faces the same problem as the rest of aviation....the declining conditions fail to attract talent.

As talent is gradually replaced by some type of robotic buerocracy, we will face more and more issues of this nature.

So if I need the whole length of any runway, I just advise the ground upon taxy request or otherwise as soon as possible.

That way they can squeeze us in a sequence and by the time we get to the RWY there are no or minimal delays..

Worked so far.....

[By-stander]

"ATC faces the same problem as the rest of aviation....the declining conditions fail to attract talent."

Our beloved Brother 4 would strongly disagree with you in-sight. He has personally hand pick the most talented student controllers. All the pilots' grievances on HK ATC will be fully addressed in the coming years.

[nitpicker330]

BusyB..........1/ The 777 doesn't have "body gear" and 2/ the back wheel pairs on the 777 are steerable, so no problems in tight turns. That is not an excuse.

There's an old saying in Aviation...

3 things that are useless to a Pilot:

1/ The fuel in the tank back at the airport
2/ The sky above you
3/ The runway behind you.

If you have the practical opportunity to make use of all the runway HKIA built then why not?

[Svengali]

Hey Dragon 69, you may not be field length limited in your Navajo, but some of us on large airplanes at max weight on very hot days may need all the runway.

[OldChinaHand]

Personally, in spite of type, wake turb category, hair driers for engines, colour on the tail etc, how many wheels can steer, H1, J10 is 99 mts less swimming to do should your magic machine decide to go surfing off the end of the runway .

MR, thanks for letting us know who has the controlling function, I was of the mistaken belief it was Tower.

[BusyB]

nitpicker,
OK, I admit one nit, I should have said main gear but it still doesn't steer, it trails:ok:

[HeavyWrenchFlyer]

What I see here is a reasonable request and a piece of information that most pilots don't have, and a few wankers whining and squeeling... "no, I won't do it, I do what I want, you're not the boss of me"! How childish! There's a reason pilots are not awarded honorary air traffic controller licenses! If you were considered to know it all on the ATC side, you would be given one! When someone gives you information you didn't have before and makes a very reasoable request, just be thankful and consider it in your decision making next time. Don't be a child! Asking for the full length earlier than last minute if you require it is common sense anyway, but here's another perfect example how common sense is not all that common!

Thanks MercuryRising, will do!

[nitpicker330]

Well, it is connected to the nose wheel steering and doesn't just "trail" as you put it. It is hyd powered by the Centre Hyd sys.

To quote FCOM 1:--

"Main gear aft axle steering is powered by the center hydraulic system.
Main gear aft axle steering automatically operates when the nose wheel steering angle exceeds 13 degrees to reduce tire scrubbing."


So, it's like 4 wheel steering on a Honda, it is an active part of the operation and doesn't simply "trail" like a stupid dog!!

[nitpicker330]

HeavyWrench.............it's not about being childish or me me me.

If we require the full length for perf reasons then yes I will and do ask on the taxi call., no worries.:ok:

However If I'm taxing around the corner and see the full length is available and I've been given J9 I will ask for the full length and it wont matter what freq I'm on. Big deal if I should have thought to ask ground 2 minutes before!! I can't be expected to know all the quirks of every ATC system worldwide.

Bottom line............If it's that important then publish it in the AIP, then CX will put it in the Port Page.

I'll take on board what he asks, but make no promises.

[12wheeler]

Thanks for a good piece of information! :ok:

I am one of those who often ask for H1/J10 on Tower frequency. When I am given J1 and there is another aircraft waiting to depart on H1 (usually the case), I won't make the request to use H1 on any frequency. Sometimes Chinese carriers wait at H1 for their departure slots, ATC may want to clear us to depart on J1 ahead of them. If I request H1 too early on Ground freq, ATC may think I NEED H1 and put me behind the aircraft already on H1. I normally just wait until I see the aircraft at H1 lining up or I pick up the departure sequence on radio, then I will ask if I could depart from H1. By that time, I am normally with Tower.

[Dragon69]

Dragon69, Respectfully,

From ACARS-
PACKS ON
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R J1 = CANNOT
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R H1 = CAN

99 meters in this case makes a BIG difference!

AFLAFL why don't you check the PACKS OFF figures..... = CAN.....but more importantly your point is irrelevant to this discussion, since you would know even before push back that J1/J9 would not be possible for your weight/conditions, and hence would have advised ground long before you started taxiing. Nice try though :ok::ok:. The initial post was referring to the crew accepting J1/J9 and last minute requesting H1/J10 on tower frequency.

Svengali,

Never flew a Navajo, but I know a good friend who has, I will ask him! :}:}

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Dragon69'er,

The company I work for and I presume by default inter alia the company you now work for preaches CRM v6. Which emphasises TEM (threat & error management), this means mitigating potential threats by developing an appropriate strategy to deal with them. Our fleet office has decided that PACKS OFF take-off is a non-std procedure with the exception of 1 Port JNB.

Therefor PACKS-OFF is most always the last resort and full length is to be used prior to resorting to a PACKS-OFF RTOW. And yes often this is decided on the bay and also very often when atmospheric conditions change after pushback.

Then again as your operation (short-haul) is generally not RTOW limited from HKG your reply does not surprise me (as usual).

Have a nice day in sunny fresh Shanghai.
Sincerely,
Alpha Floor

[Dragon69]

Come on Alpha Floor big picture stuff. I am not suggesting doing intersection departures at long haul weights. I've flown enough long haul to know that at max weight the A340 will be able to depart from J9/J1, so we are never field length limited, you were trying to dispute that with your figures. Would I do it? Of course not! However, flying regionally, and in a real airplane, departing from J1/J9 is as much of a threat as using FLEX departures.

this means mitigating potential threats by developing an appropriate strategy to deal with them. Our fleet office has decided that PACKS OFF take-off is a non-std procedure with the exception of 1 Port JNB.

You call a PACKS OFF T/O a threat??????? Are you a pilot or merely a pansy button pusher???? What's next manual landings are a threat???? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ALPHA FLOOR]

My management defines PACKS-OFF a threat in the FCTM, based on the number of "early flap retractions" experienced on the fleet over the years, adding selection of PACKS at thrust reduction is considered a distraction at a critical time when one should be focussing on Mode awareness and configuration changes etc (TEM removing a potential threat) ---

Any further debate on the topic is pointless as you seem to have made your mind up.

AFL

[Dragon69]

What can I say, you've obviously had way too many drinks with Bob and Daryl!

Have a nice day :ok:

[Shot Nancy]

What is a Navajo?:rolleyes:
Wise to raise the issue MercuryRising. I thought GND determined the intersection based on our departure sequence. Of course if full length is REQUIRED as opposed to REQUESTED the earlier ATC know the better.
ALPHAFLOOR: In the days before CRM and TEM there was common sense and airmanship. There was also a higher hour requirement before being allowed to fly airline jets. I get the feeling from your posts that a lot of "flying" things are being dumbed down by your company. So if it isn't listed as a threat in some book it isn't a threat?
Can you explain how the PACK PB is connected to the flap lever?

[2longhk]

When you say I need the full length then take -off with reduced thrust you have no clue .

[nitpicker330]

this is not rocket science boys.

settle down.

The point is that "if" the full length is available and you are right there then you'd be a little stupid not to take the extra 99 m.

Obviously there are times when close to field length limited weight and you must take it.

yes at flex t/o settings J9 or J10 wont make a hoot of difference 99.95% of the time. But Murphy is hanging around!! You'd look pretty silly in court explaining why you didn't take the avail full length and therefore clipped the lights at the other end!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the lawyers would have a field day, why give them the pleasure?

Could be one less nail in your coffin !!

[nitpicker330]

If the longer black stuff is available and it's not going to cause us any delay wouldn't you be duty bound to take it? Wouldn't you be stupid not to?

A bit of extra length never hurt. ( I'm taking about Aviation )

[ClearToLand]

Hi guys/gals, I just want to explain a little bit here: as a ground controller, the general rules (not absolute) for taxiing aircraft to a holding point are for those parking at south apron normally taxi via J to J1HP and for those parking at west/north apron normally taxi via H to H1HP, in this case, we can keep the conflict points to minimum, similar rules apply to J9/J10. Of course, things subject to change when we have to do dep sequencing, or an aircraft needs to make their expiry time etc.

If pilot has been told to taxi to J1HP via J, normally that means there are other traffic taxiing to H1 via H, if you don't see anyone at the H1HP and ask TWR controller for it, that means the TWR controller has to ask the ground controller's permission, and at the same time if there's someone taxiing on H and has been told to go to H1HP, the ground controller has to tell that aircraft now you have to follow the traffic to your left to the H1HP. Yes, physically those 2 are not going to hit, but we still need to apply separation assurance. If not busy, that's not a big deal, but if it's busy, asking for H1 can increase lots of workload and coordination.

Some controllers like only using J, so that everyone can go to H1HP, but then the conflict increase at the junction of W/J, and the flexibility for dep sequencing decrease. So, if you really need H1, tell ground controller so that he/she can merge you with other traffic if required.

[geh065]

Thanks CleartoLand. That makes sense!

[Night Watch]

CleartoLand

Thank you for one of the the best posts I've read on PPRuNe in a long time. That makes perfect sense.