Jetstar A330 Load Planning

[Firstofficer320]

Jetstar are outsourcing their Weight & Balance ( Load Planning ) Department in November 2009 to the Phillipines from Australia. It is currently based in Perth where it is manned by english speaking aviation professionals, however in a bid to cut costs Jetstar wants to outsource this crucial department overseas, thus making 5 planners redundant.

A330 Pilots working for Jetstar to my knowledge have no idea of this proposed outsourcing and I highly doubt any pilot would be happy with the decision by Jetstar to do so.

Let me hear your views.

[ATC Watcher]

Luthansa is since some time now outsourcing some of the heavy maintenance of their A330/340s to the Philippines. Empty a/c going there from Germany, crew sometimes immobilized there, etc, then ferry flight empty back. Acording the the beans counters if is cheaper than to do the maintenance in Frankfurt.
Welcome to the club !
(and so much for IATAs plea in reducing CO2 emissions )

[manrow]

AS usual the decisions are forced upon us by the bean counters

If it saves money then we do it, with no consideration of any other factors what so ever including safety!

[jettison valve]

ATC watcher,

Heavy maintenance (i. e. IL- and D-checks) have never been done in FRA, which is focussed on line maintenance.
Secondly, every now and then the LH rotations into heavy maintenance at MNL are not done via ferry flights but live exchange, for instance in SIN or KIX in the past.
Thirdly, you don´t have to be a beancounter if you look at the manhour rates in LTP and in Germany. Provided you get similar quality and turn-around-time, you basically are forced to go to the cheaper MH rate (we are talking five digit MH figures for a HMV!).
Ask yourself what you would do with your car: Drive 10kms more to a garage that provides the same service for 200EUR instead of 300EUR? :ok:

FO320,

what are your concerns: Poorer quality? Slower responses?

Regards, J.V.

[Huck]

We've operated out of the Philippines for years - payload workup, heavy maintenance, ramp operations, whatever.

Damn good people and not a safety concern in the least.

[jettison valve]

... I agree with Huck...: Professional staff over there!

[Wannabe Flyer]

It is currently based in Perth where it is manned by english speaking aviation professionalsFO320

Last I checked they spoke pretty good English in the Philippines. Is it the accent you are worried about? :=... Well they also have a problem understanding your accent, ever considered that?

Given the times nowadays saving every penny is vital to the survival of every airline!

[ebt]

A330 load planning was always outsourced anyway to Skystar, and even then it was only because they had ex AN people who could do it. So the work will now go to a different operator who happens to be overseas. We won't know for some time if that is a good or a bad thing.

Could it be possible - even only a little bit - that there are people overseas who can do some parts of airline operations just as competently as Australians at less cost? Cost doesn't always equal quality when you look at the world market.

[Buster Hyman]

Aside from the obvious outsourcing of jobs offshore issues, I can't see any particular problem with this. CX send Loadsheets via ACARS from HKG, CV do the same for some ports.

I'm wondering if I should set up a business doing Loadsheets from home...:ooh:

[nitpicker330]

Yes CX gets it's loadsheets from HKG, our HOME PORT.....

Not from MNL

Good luck Jetstar!! You'll need it.

"I'm so tired sirrr, please wait"

[Transition Layer]

QF gets their loadsheets from HKG, SIN or Australia, depending on where in the world you're departing from.

Guess it's just the way of the future, as Buster says, eventually some bloke with be sending them via ACARS from his flat in Bangalore while he plays online poker and runs Telstra Bigpond technical support.

[Eastwest Loco]

Being an ex loco, I cannot see the sense in not having the dudes at the port in question doing the load and trim.

On the spot decisions regarding seat allocation and bag distribution count for a lot.

The system is getting far too Space Invaders.

The guys and girls doing the weight and balance should be on site at the port in question. Simple and straight forward.

Do the load and trim. monitor the ongoing load. sign the aeroplane out and then watch it take off.

THAT is what airline employees do. The real ones anyway.

Bean counters - fornicate off.

Best all

EWL

[Buster Hyman]

Yes CX gets it's loadsheets from HKG, our HOME PORT.....

Jetstar is based in MEL...not PER, or MNL! And would CX's costs be comparable?

LoCoBloko, I heartily agree. Nothing can compare to SEEING a 40CM overhang on a space critical flight. You can rely on your freight guys to build pallets accordingly, but seeing it before you plan it...no comparison.

(Still the greatest job at an Airport...IMHO) :ok:

[mohikan]

Wannabe flyer you dumb ba$$tard.

The management or any of the other blunts that infest and drag down airlines have not taken any pay cuts in these 'difficult financial times' have they??

Au contrair, you can bet your balls that this move to outsource JQ load planning gives some 'rex hunt' a nice fat addition to his annual bonus. Dont be such a chump and a suck hole.

The guys you are championing here will burn you in a heartbeat also.

Stop drinking the cool-aid or you will end up like the rest of the Australian pilot group that allows itself to be played off man against man by scum who do nothing but line their own pockets with bonuses sucked out of the operational workforce.

[Firstofficer320]

Ok. For those who dont know Load Planning for JQ was outsourced within Australia to PER to a ground handling company and those employees are now facing redundancy because some BIG Shot in JQ wants to add another few 0's to his annual salary, while the load planners will be let go just before christmas. Lets just see how this new operation ex MNL goes.

[VS-LHRCSA]

I wonder why THIS isn't on Sunrise?

Aussie jobs being shipped off-shore. Seemed like a big deal when Pacific Brands did it.

[hotnhigh]

Bean Counters have only one way of justifying their existence. If they don't continue to drive down costs at any cost, well what is their point?
To borrow the line from Kimmy, "Ya pack of chunts."

[captaintunedog777]

From my sources.

Jetstar planners send a provisional load plan which is then checked by the crew who then make ammenments and then print the final copy. The provisional is a provisional the pilots have to rely on the final given to them by the loaders and then make the necessary adjustments. Now to think Jetstar have 5 dudes doing this for 12 or so flights a day. I very much doubt it. I am not sure of A3donkeys sources are but they seem a little suspect.

Buster. What are you on about. You go down underneath and check the containers are AKE PMX etc. Come on sunshine this aint no clapped out Chieften on a Horn Island charter.

Amateurs:D

[john_tullamarine]

Draft and check works well. Best system I have seen locally was at IPEC. Trimsheet run up by the loadies in the normal manner. Crew checked the load and ran a double check using a circular slide rule style of trimsheet - as I recall, F/O ran the prayer wheel while the Captain read off the checked numbers.

Closest thing to an independent check and worked real well - only took seconds to do the final crosscheck

[Ken Borough]

What are you on about. You go down underneath and check the containers are AKE PMX etc.

How ignorant can one get?:mad: Buster is pretty well spot on. :ok:The challenge of getting a 'gutser' has to be one of the most satisfying tasks of any airport job, any day of the week.

[Buster Hyman]

load plan which is then checked by the crew who then make ammenments and then print the final copy.
Gee, would they have the time after checking in all the punters & then chucking the bags themselves? IMHO, all the crew should have to worry about is the weights, the trim (balance) & any pertinant stuff like DG's etc. They've got enough things to sort out without worrying about transit cans etc! :ugh:
Buster. What are you on about. You go down underneath and check the containers are AKE PMX etc. Come on sunshine this aint no clapped out Chieften on a Horn Island charter.

Well, you got me there. Never knew a "Chieften" could take LD3's...:rolleyes:...but that's okay, I was only ever licensed on a few types, such as B727, B737, B747-100/200/300/400/Combi/Freighter, B777, A310, A320, A340, A330, Dc-10/10/30, LD-11/11F, F28, B767-200/300...

Amateur??? You'd know...:rolleyes:

[nitpicker330]

Buster:-- I can't see any particular problem with this. CX send Loadsheets via ACARS from HKG

You were justifying JQ using MNL by comparing it to CX.
You can't compare JQ "outsourcing" it's loadsheets to MNL with CX sending it's loadsheets from it's HOME BASE in HKG.

Our own trained expert guys do it from our home base HQ, not some foreign guys in another third party country.

I'd hate to think how bad the service would be if CX "outsourced" it's load control to MNL!! I've been through MNL hundreds of times and nothing, repeat nothing inspires confidence in me there at all. Sorry I to be blunt but it's the gods own truth. The number of stuff ups and incidents there over basic stuff is amazing. ( ATC, Engineering, Ground staff, etc etc )

[captaintunedog777]

Sorry Buster.

I'm not talking about baggage handlers here.

[neville_nobody]

Could it be possible - even only a little bit - that there are people overseas who can do some parts of airline operations just as competently as Australians at less cost? Cost doesn't always equal quality when you look at the world market.

Maybe. May be not.

However it is worth considering how many people the major Australian airlines killed in the last 30 years? And yes I conceed that there are many factors that work in our favour however we have managed to keep a very safe operating environment.

It is also worth pointing out that a QF flight crew saved the day with a problem in a 737 that has resulted in two fatal accidents in overseas airlines. And I would imagine any Australian flight crew would have easily handled the same problem. For the QF boys it was a non event yet for some foreign airlines this same problem ended in fatal accidents.

The Australian psyche fits very well into Aviation and it is a very safe. The only thing is that the idiots who run airlines don't actually realise this and think that it is better to sell everything off to the cheapest bidder.

The question I ask is do want the standard that the rest of world has?

[Eastwest Loco]

John Tulla

Totally correct post, although I have never used a trim wheel but staff who worked for me have with NAC.

There is no substitute for the load and trim being produced at the location of the aeroplane in question. I signed them out, and I watched them fly.

Last second advice from tarmac staff can prevent a potential disaster.

Taking control from those at local airports can also provide more negatives on a marketing base than any benefit it provides.

We use to be able to close off F27 52 seaters, F28 72 seaters and 96 seat BAe146-300s at 8 minutes to rollout and still get them out on or ahead of time. That was with manual load and trim and seat allocation.

The more technology you get, the slower you are.

However, I will say the guys at DPO these days do a brilliant job considering the neanderthal system they have pressed upon them.

Best all

EWL

[john_tullamarine]

although I have never used a trim wheel

.. just a "circularly" drawn trimsheet, if that makes sense. The only downside is that the accuracy varies according to the radius for any given trimline. They are used in much the same manner as a conventional paper trimsheet (with a couple of style differences due to the circular format) .. in the hands of a proficient user ... greased lightning.

[Buster Hyman]

I'm justifying remote Loadsheets as a technological possibility, as evidenced by CX. I'm not endorsing remote loadsheets as I preferred to be on the ground watching & planning the load.

I have NFI about the current local qualifications in MNL, but I'm assuming that when CX used locals in the past, it turned out allright...

Trim wheel, or Prayer wheel as we called it, was used to great effect by Continental...pain in the arse converting to pounds all the time, but quite a simple & effective manual trim. :ok:

[nitpicker330]

When Cx used the outports to generate their own loadsheets we had a lot more errors. Columbo was particular concern for us.
Now it's centralized we have a better product.

Seems to work ok:

[David Brent]

It's a simple computer programme administered by anyone with an IQ above 100...get over it.

Not that dissimilar to a low cost airline with a star on the tail administered by a bunch of ex-Ansett hacks with an IQ nominally above/below 100..

[SOPS]

Well for my two cents worth...no matter where we are in the world our load sheets are calculated and sent by ACARS from a "sandy" place, and it seems to work fine. Now, I have no idea of what happens between communications...what I mean is this

Anywhere in the World: ACARS comes from Sandy Place with Actual ZFW
Crew makes final fuel calculation and passes figures to local handling company
Anywhere in the World: ACARS comes with Final load sheet from Sandy Place

And it all seems to work fine

(but yes..I admit..the load sheet comes from the company..where ever we are...well at least I assume it does:})

[Firstofficer320]

Quote: Now to think Jetstar have 5 dudes doing this for 12 or so flights a day. I very much doubt it. I am not sure of A3donkeys sources are but they seem a little suspect.

Captain Tune, I dont know who your sources are but logic will tell you that you need more than one load planner on a roster, therefore what I mean by 5 load planners is the entire department with 1 load planner working at anytime. Lets just see how our friends in MNL go I'm sure your sources can probably inform you come mid november lets just hope they are more reliable than of late.