RAF Vought Corsairs in WWII?

[nacluv]

My wife's grandfather recently passed away. He was a submariner (radio operator) during the war. In the stuff we have been sorting out are a number of files of his days in the Navy.

One of his photos which particularly struck me, from when he did a stint on an auxiliary aircraft carrier (the ones where they bolted on a flight deck to a merchantman), was of a flypast of three Vought Corsairs which are clearly sporting RAF roundels and tail markings.

Now I now of many American types either purchased or loaned to the RAF, but I have never heard of Corsairs being used. Can anyone shed any light on this please?

[chevvron]

They would have been Fleet Air Arm rather than RAF. The FAA certainly had some; hopefully an FAA enthusiast will see this post and elucidate.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Link to copious random internet babble removed, apologies for so lowering the tone.


I still wonder how people manage without google...

(edited in deference to the comments below)

[nacluv]

You know, I have heard of google. Even used it once or twice. However I valued the opinion of industry experts over copious random internet babble, and chose the direct route. Is it not what these fora are for?

Anyway - thanks for the link.

Perhaps I should expand on the story a little and see if this explains better why I was asking on here.

The vessel he was on (Nairana) was on Russian escort duty in 1944 (I think) and several aircraft types were mentioned on their inventory. American types included. However I didn't see Corsairs mentioned in the list, so I was presuming they were from a different vessel - but possibly not...

Also, I don't recall seeing before what I previously referred to as RAF roundels on ship-borne (i.e. FAA) aircraft. By that I mean overall camouflage paint scheme with roundels which include the white and yellow bands. This is why I thought they were RAF.

[norwich]

This has to be one of those 'spooky' days in life ! let me explain, for some time I have been asking friends of my age to look into their parents photo albums etc for those rapidly disappearing photos of aircraft from history, and asking if they would mind allowing me to copy some ??? Well on this very morning a colleague left a memory stick on my desk containing a few of his fathers photos from his naval career, which he had been keen to show for some time ! I have just looked through them and !!! guess what !!!! see below ! is this FAA ???? it has roundels ??? I know nothing of where or when or what or who, but this lovely man is still well and truly with us so who knows ????

Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/KPs%20dads%20pics/037.jpg

[nacluv]

Great photo! Thanks. Unfortunately I am not in possession of the photo I was referring to at the moment, but I think it is worth getting hold of it and scanning/posting it here. I'll see what I can do. The only thing I would say is that I think the fuselage roundels were more prominent - larger - than those in the photo above. But in both cases they are proper roundels, and not with the added broad horizontal white bands.

AB - I think you misunderstand me. My comment about google was not a dig at you. I was merely explaining that I chose not to go to google as a first option because I thought there were likely to be too many search results, and a direct post on here would yield better and more accurate results - as you proved with your response. Even if it was from google... :) I would have preferred that you removed the sarcastic rolling eyes, rather than the link.

[nacluv]

Keith - just to add from what I have learned. Your aircraft is definitely FAA - it has the "ROYAL NAVY" script over the serial immediately in front of the tailplane (trust me on that!) and the shadow reveals that it has the clipped wingtips - a FAA mod so the aircraft would fit in the garages below deck. No camo though - or at least it doesn't look like it? I think 'mine' have camo paint schemes.

I have got to get hold of those photos now!

[norwich]

nacluv. I feel excitement in your post ! I zoomed into this photo and thought it looked like Royal Navy as you confirm ! There is a possibility I may get my hands on the original to scan at higher resolution, and maybe talk with the owner to glean more info ??? at a later date.

Keith.

[renfrew]

Nacluv,
As I understand it the aircraft with "proper" roundels would be in Europe.The other markings you mention would be in the Pacific or Far East.

[ZeBedie]

I have a few photos from the deck of HMS Venerable, taken in 1945. The roundels were not like these.

[Agaricus bisporus]

A very short search through anything related with the FAA (let alone wikipedia page on the subject) will show that just about every aircraft shown has roundels. Wiki describes them as the insignia of the service. Every Stringbag you've ever seen carries them, as does almost every Seajet, and everything else in between. Why/how does this come as a surprise? Virtually every aircraft the FAA ever had wore them.

ps. Google is crap. Use webferret instead.

[Brian Abraham]

The FAA operated a total 2,012 Corsairs, none were operated by the RAF as far as I am aware. The FAA Corsairs originally had a camouflage scheme with a Dark Slate Grey/Extra Dark Sea Grey disruptive pattern on top and Sky undersides, but were later painted overall dark blue. Those operating in the Pacific theater acquired a specialized British insignia — a modified blue-white roundel with white "bars" to make it look more like a U.S. than a Japanese Hinomaru insignia to prevent friendly fire incidents.

Some history of the FAA Corsairs here, and photo of original camouflage scheme Chance-Vought Corsair F4Uaircraft profile. Aircraft Database of the Fleet Air Arm Archive 1939-1945 (http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Corsair.htm)

[Brain Potter]

I'm sure that I read an account of the RN's role in the development of shipboard ops in the F4U Corsair. It seems that the USN had difficulty with bringing the F4U aboard carriers due to the poor visibility over it's long nose in the approach attitude. Consequently, the F6F Hellcat became the preferred equipment for the carrier fighter squadrons, whilst the F4U was issued to the USMC for mainly land-based operations. When the FAA got hold of the Corsair they applied the hard-learned lessons of the Seafire and adopted a curving approach to the deck, giving the pilot much better visibility. This technique dramatically reduced the Corsair's landing accident rate and was adopted by the USN, allowing F4U to give distinguished service right through the Korean War and outliving the rival F6F.

[lauriebe]

Norwich/Keith, I am fairly sure that your photo shows a Corsair IV of 1851 Naval Air Squadron operating from HMS Venerable in Far Eastern waters during mid-/late-45. Then, the squadron was part of the 15th Carrier Air Group. My copy of "The Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm" shows this unit's aircraft wearing the 'R6' codes at that time. The 'P' would be the individual aircraft code.

The unit arrived in the Far East just as the war ended and it did not take part in any action. However, it seems it did have a detachment ashore during the re-occupation of Hong Kong.

Just a note on Far East Fleet markings. They did change and there were both small and large roundels. Don't have that reference to hand at the moment.

Hope that helps.

[Chairborne 09.00hrs]

Norwich,


Please post more piccies!

[nacluv]

Well, here's one (the one) from me. Early scheme I would suggest - camo and large 4-band roundels. The FAA clipped wings are evident too...

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/Nairana.jpg

I have no date, but I suggest some time in '43 or '44.

[renfrew]

The Corsairs would not have been from this escort carrier but presumably from a larger carrier nearby.

[nacluv]

Very probably, but...

This particular vessel is known to have carried Sea Hurricanes, but also Grumman Wildcats, so larger radials were no stranger to her decks...

[norwich]

Chairborne. I am sorry at the moment that is the only photo of corsairs that I have ! but there may be more ! that at the moment are 'lost' !!!

lauriebe. Following your supurb research and comments above, the letter below, in the hand of the donor, will, I am sure, please you ! I rather hope it is readable ????

Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/KPs%20dads%20pics/letter1.jpg

[Union Jack]

As a young officer I served with several, dare I say "mature", FAA officers who had flown Corsairs in carriers with the British Pacific Fleet in the latter stages of the war in the Pacific.

Without exception they all thoroughly enjoyed their Corsair time, not least since they had come to grips with the special technique required for landing on with the extended nose from their previous experience, and they also greatly appreciated the additional strength afforded to the aircraft by the inverted seagull wings.

As Brian Abraham states, the eventual paintwork scheme was a very distinctive dark blue, much as subsequently used with FAA Skyraiders.

Jack

PS Nacluv - He was a submariner (radio operator) during the war .... known in those days and until the early 1960s as a Telegraphist

[lauriebe]

Keith, glad to be of help.

The letter is certainly readable. Thanks for posting. No.814 Sqn was the 'attack' half of the 15th Carrier Air Group onboard Venerable. After WWII, that ship was first sold to The Netherlands as the second Karel Doorman (HMS Nairana, which also features in the thread, was the first) and then, in Oct 68, to Argentina, as the Veinticinco de Mayo.

No. 1851 Sqn wore the "R6" codes between July 1945 and February 1946. It transferred to HMS Vengance in June 1946 for its journey back to the UK and disbanded at Devonport on 13 August 1946.

[Brian Abraham]

I recall reading an absolutely wonderful and riveting book written by a FAA WWII Corsair pilot and his exploits in the Pacific and elsewhere. Damned if I can remember title/author.

[Chairborne 09.00hrs]

by Norman Hanson? OC 1833NAS?

[renfrew]

I think the book is "Carrier Pilot" by Norman Hanson.He was a civil servant from Carlisle,who almost by accident ended as a senior pilot on 1833 Corsair squadron on Illustrious.
For anyone interested in the FAA's Pacific war it's a must read.

[nacluv]

PS Nacluv - He was a submariner (radio operator) during the war .... known in those days and until the early 1960s as a Telegraphist

Thanks Union Jack. You're quite right, and I had realised my 'howler' - and was intending to correct it.

Funnily enough, reading through more of the papers last night, I came across his wireless examination records, where he is labelled as a 'Radio Operator'!!! Other documents state, as you say, 'Telegraphist'.

[johnfairr]

Another excellent, though fictional, account of Corsairs in the RN Pacific fleet carriers can be found in "Aircraft Carrier" by John Winton, the renowned naval author. Every one of his books are eminently readable, full of humour and incident, delivered with great style. "HMS Leviathan" continues the carrier theme, this time into the 50s.

Sad that he didn't write more books. The Artful Bodger was a terrific character in his first four books. :ok:

[aedie]

Keith
This is just to confirm that the picture of Corsair R6P of 1851 squadron taking off was taken by the photo section on HMS Venerable. The pilot was Lt Michael B Gerrish RNVR Commanding Officer (acting) 1851 May1945 to June 1945. His age at the time was 24 years. He now lives in Sussex. I have an original print on which he has pencilled on the reverse side "self".

[gpugh]

Hi just reading this thread with interest, my father flew FAA Corsairs in 1944/45,he did his fighter training on them based at Yeovilton then flew them out in India and remembers them being moved by elephant out there, still his favourite piston fighter out of all that he flew including the Sea Fury which he flew during Korea from HMS Ocean and HMS Vengence as well as from some of the shore bases. He says the Americans did have problems with them on the decks until the FAA altered the height of the tail wheel which the Americans then adopted


gordon

[norwich]

aedie. Thank you for your input, and welcome to the forum, it never ceases to amaze me just how many small peices of information can be collected in this way ! all of course adding to the bigger picture !

Keith :)

[Fournierf5]

Anyone who flew or worked on Corsairs will surely be fascinated by what the Fleet Air Arm Museum have done to their Corsair KD431. If they haven't done so already - Corsair KD431: The Time Capsule Fighter - is a 'must read'.
It may be out of print though. Strangely the museum website invites you to buy it and then doesn't show it in their display list of books available. A search on that place named after a very long river shows copies available tho!

[palmyrah]

Greetings from Sri Lanka (formerly Ceylon) to all of you. I happened on this thread and joined the forum to comment on it.

The Fleet Air Arm did indeed fly a number of Corsairs in the Indian Ocean theatre. There were Corsair squadrons based at Koggala and Palavi (both RAF bases) on the west coast of Ceylon. The Imperial War Museum has a number of good images showing this, together with quite a lot of information for anyone who is interested. In the meantime, I’m sure members here will enjoy these images from Palavi. First, the romanticized version:

http://kiekebusch.com/images/art/Robert-Taylor/Puttalam-Elephants.jpg

The reality was slightly less picturesque – and more cruel. That's an immature elephant and, as many of you will know, a dry Corsair weighed well over four tons.

http://lankapura.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/raf-base-kalpitiya.jpg

[onetrack]

I wouldn't say there was anything cruel about the work the elephant is doing, even if the Corsair is "well over four tons".
It is easy enough to roll a substantial weight on wheels, if it's on firm ground or pavement. The ground around the Corsair certainly appears to be quite firm.
The Corsair wheels are large enough diameter to provide low rolling resistance, and no doubt they are inflated to a reasonably high pressure.
I would be very surprised to find if it took more than about 300-400 lbs force to move the Corsair, with the major effort required initially to overcome the inertia from a standing start, and with a much lower pull effort required, once the aircraft was moving.
I would have thought this amount of effort would have been easily achievable, even for a small elephant, as a single draughthorse is capable of up to 400 lbs of initial pulling effort, and a constant pull effort of 200 lbs.

[BRIEFING OFFICER]

........and a few aircraft handlers can shift it just as well. Mmmm
"Now then you lot...two six...HEAVE!" Come on..put your backs into it....."

.......easier said than done with a heaving deck!