EK Hiring

[cody_v]

So, emirates will start the road shows and start recruitment in October. Anyone who looks at the contract (and I use the term loosley) and knows the situation here and STILL says, yeah that sounds good I want to work at EK is insane. The management needs to look inside and figure out why their current workforce is fleeing instead of ruining the lives of innocent canidates that may be duped into coming here.

[fatbus]

Just remember, the more guys you convince not to come as FO's means more of AS's Dec's buddy's and hence delayed ypgrades for everyone. First I've heard of any road shows.

[Payscale]

Courses are already running...

[fatbus]

I think most knew that courses were running, 8 on each. Should continue as well on the bus not sure about the 777.777 getting most of the new cadets .30 + upgrades on the bus only a couple on the 777, preparing for the next group of 380's. Still no word on the 333's or the 744/748 but all still on the table.

Things can change overnight as I was just on a flt with a recruiting guy and said no plans for any roadshows as the number of files are up.

[Asianlonghaul]

Don't wast your time. Many guys who "passed" the interview in March - June last year are still on the hold file, OR suddenly after waiting all this time found they are no longer qualified, those that are still qualified have been told to re apply & this time pay for their own ticket. The EK job is not what it was. Many, many years to wait for a command and a very hard roster compared to a couple of years back.

[sheikmyarse]

Beware each and everyone of your rights will sooner or later be violated!!!

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Preamble

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,
Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,
Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,
Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in cooperation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,
Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,
Now, therefore,
The General Assembly,
Proclaims this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11

Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.Article 12

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13

Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.Article 14

Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.Article 15

Everyone has the right to a nationality.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.Article 16

Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.Article 17

Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20

Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
No one may be compelled to belong to an association.Article 21

Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.
The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.Article 22

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23

Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.Article 24

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.Article 26

Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.Article 27

Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.Article 28

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29

Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.Article 30

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

[cody_v]

I'm not convincing anyone to do anything other than consider their decision carefully. Even if EK decide to hire DEC's, I certainly hope that anyone considering a position as a DEC would take into account the 76% FAILURE RATE on the Boeing before deciding to shove off from their current employer. This is a fact. I won't quote names for obvious reasons, but it comes from the horse's mouth, as they say.

[ItsAjob]

Where is the roadshow advertised?

[QCM]

Sheikyoura$$e are you in jail in this part of the world?
Why such stupid useless inadequate post?:ugh::ugh::mad:

[Air1980]

Article 23

1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
2. Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
3. Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
4. Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.



Note paragraph 4, rather ironic eh?!

[cody_v]

If anyone decides to come to EK, just understand you will work harder than you can imagine, experience fatigue of a new level, and make just enough money to pay your bills if you have a family. FO's with kids here live paycheck to paycheck. The few days off you have will not be spent enjoying your family, but recovering. But that's ok becasue you won't have any money to leave your villa or travel anyway.

The old days of come to EK for 7-10 years, save up some money, have some fun as an expat and return home are long gone. If you want to make enough money to leave here in any reasonable condition your looking at 15-18 years or it's just not worth it unless you are independently wealthy or have a military pension, etc.

[jackbauer]

cody v, your post is a load of verbal cobblers. I make more than enough to save some and have worked much harder in past companies. Stop putting spin on the story just to sound like you are hard done by. If its that bad why do you stay? Oh yeah thats right your own country has no jobs , no human rights, the unions have neglected to protect your pensions and it's 15yrs to a wide body command. A little balance please and less drama.

[Fubaliera]

With lots of people in the pool still, I seriously dought they are gonna do roadshows. And if they do its just to keep the HR people busy.

[kotakota]

Just heard from pretty reliable scource that EK have got so slaphappy with firing people that an FO has just been booted for having his photo taken with 2 hosties in front of an engine somewhere . Apparently some wonderful passenger took a photo of scene and sent it to the Firing Squad - WTF ? Certainly some previously happy company men are now being shocked on a regular basis by all these goings on.
if somebody could please explain to me the real reason for this behaviour?
Is there ANY recruitment going on ?

[yada.yada.yada]

sounds like this:

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/381454-sackings-will-continue-until-4.html

[cody_v]

Seems like you've got your facts a bit backwards. First off, you have far more rights as an employee in America than most countries in this part of the world. Secondly, the reason why unions have no power and pilots have no pension is because the US airline industry has produced heavy financial losses for years on end now. If EK posts massive loses for years on end I will GLADLY take a pay cut and contract changes to protect my job and the jobs of those below me. I've done it in the past. I have a problem when the company makes 1/2 billion USD and then tears up the contract and works us like dogs.
Like I said, as a captain I have a descent lifestyle, nothing glamorous by any stretch. But as an FO after a bit over 3 years I saved exactly 0 dirhams prior to upgrade. A friend of mine who is currently a 3 year FO and is single has loads of cash in the bank, but another neighbor of mine who is a 2 year FO has 4 kids under the age of twelve is now in the red ink after the sudden contract change.

Sorry, but "if you don't like it leave" is not an option for this guy because now he is in debt and would be thrown in jail if he tried. I have not been done wrong by any company in my career, just the normal ups and downs, nor am I bitter. My point is that anyone looking to join EK needs to VERY carefully consider their own individual needs and not drink the kool-aid the recruiters love to serve up or beleive that this is the same EK from 5 years ago.

If you still decide EK is for you and after arriving they stick you in some awefull temporary accomodation for 8 months, then give you a villa under the flight path of the departing 2 am Antonov's, please don't come to work and complain. This is what EK can and does do and you must know that coming here. But, yeah, I guess I'm just being negative, sorry. :ok:

[tcasguy]

Cody V, I have to take issue with your 76% number on DEC failures. That is just not the case. You data is not accurate and while I'm on the subject, the insinuation that DECs are treated badly by FOs is also bunk. I flew with the most professional FOs you can imagine (with one exception and this guy was just mad at the world..) and every trip but one was a sincere pleasure.

Now, as one of the recently departed, I would strongly recommend serious conisderation of the "facts" before coming to EK. Integrity is non existent in the culture despite the advertising to the opposite. You will be held to a different set of standards than management is held tol

It was my personal opinion that management hoped the pilot force was just stupid enough to believe their spin on everything from cost cutting to rostering to accident investigation. Fortunately, this was not the case and the pilots are able to see through the ruse.

If you are unemployed, then EK is probably a good option. If you have a job with any satisfaction, then a move to the sand should be seriously reconsidered. Having lived through the changes of the last 15 months, it is just not a job I can recommend at this time.

Tcasguy (and NO RELATION to the other TCAS...)

[cody_v]

Thanks for the post TCAS, right on the money. Didn't mean anything with regards to treatment of DEC's by FO's, something I wrote probably just came off the wrong way as I agree with your statement.

My thread was intended for guys to write opinions about working for EK so that those interested in coming here have as much information as possible to make such a big decision. (Even bigger if you have a family that you'll be dragging along!) EK has been great for me, but I came along at a much, MUCH different time. In the last 2 years I have seen an alarming number of guys who are miserable here and it is sad.

It really doesn't matter if people here agree with me or not, and numbers are arguable, but hopefully potential canidates will get something out of the thread and it won't turn into a pissing contest amongst EK pilots.

Once again, I feel joining EK now would be a risky proposition at best. (of course as TCAS pointed out, depending on your situation) Just be prepared for things to get worse from the time you interview until when you join. Until the management recognizes the need for a bit of perspective in that we have a very proffesional bunch of guys here and to treat us as such, it would be difficult for me to get excited for new guys joining. Too many pilots leaving at the moment for me to be confident change for the better is coming soon.

[Iver]

EK management is pretty shifty. I am sure they will start offering A380 FO slots to newhires to get the hiring numbers they seek...

[cody_v]

Well primeco you said it. If you don't like it leave. Unfortunatley there are too many good people leaving EK, because the people at the top have their heads up their a$$.

Not all jobs are equal and a love of flying won't pay the bills or satisfy the needs of other people in your life that depend on you. I love aviation, even after all these years, but I have been very carefull where I have choosen to work at this stage in my career.

Just don't want to see people jump into EK because "it's a job" and find out it's not at all what they bargained for. Too many other companies around the world hiring at the moment.

[pool]

I get so sick and tired of people complaining about their current employer. Like you said if its that bad then you should just leave



It is mind boggling having to read such stupid arguments every second day on PP. As if people having a job are not allowed to complain at all, because others have none. Very well orchestrated by tyrants and demagogues and numbly followed by morons.
According to your logic Aung San Suu Kyi is not allowed to complain about the house arrest and dismal human rights in Myanmar, because she has a house and millions others don't, so she should just shut up or leave! She can't, just as many others can't simply leave a place or a company.
It is therefore a basic right to complain about bad conditions or if they change to worse. You can always argue about the validity, but stating that one should either shut up or leave is fundamentally wrong, inherently fatalistic, plain stupid and simply playing into the hands of the oppressors.

[snaproll3480]

Thanks for the positive feed back jackbauer. I get so sick and tired of people complaining about their current employer. Like you said if its that bad then you should just leave. There many other folk looking for jobs and those with negative things to say should quit and let people who love to fly do just that!

Primeco, that's the attitude that allows employers to treat their people like crap. They count on people like you who are afflicted with BSJ Syndrome and will fly their airplanes regardless of the conditions. We all love to fly, but we do this as a PROFESSION not a damn hobby. If you love to fly, that's awesome, go rent a 172 for the weekend. If you want to fly for a living, you need to adjust your "I'll fly for anything" attitude and recognize when an employer is giving you a raw deal and demand to be treated as a highly trained professional. Otherwise, do the rest of us a favor and stick to plane spotting off the end of the runway.

p.s. for those who don't know, BSJ Syndrome is Big Shiny Jet Syndrome. It is a congenital defect in some pilots that subjects them to an irrational sense of wonder at amazing flying machines and makes them particularly susceptible to repeated ass reamings from management.

[cody_v]

The last thing that EK needs is guys with "BSJ" syndrome. It is a poison to our proffesion. Primeco should look into a management position if that's not where he's at already.

Look, seen many guys, especially in the last couple years, who have come from regionals with a wicked case of BSJ. Funny talking to them now. A much different attitude. EK has a steep learning curve in many ways.

[Wiley]

I get so sick and tired of people complaining about their current employer. I had a mate who was a recruiting officer for the Air Force many years ago and he told me something I've always remembered - and found on many occasions to be true. "No matter what you tell them, people looking for as job will hear only what they want to hear."

He saw a succession of people walk into the recruiting office and join up, only to bitch and complain within six months about the very points he told them would be part and parcel of life in the military. primeco is a classic example of this. Whether he's suffering BSJ syndome of just feels that life in the Sandpit will be an exciting change, at this stage, he only hears what he wants to hear.

Only time will tell if the blinkers will be shed. primeco, I know I'll never change your mind, but take a look at all the posts from a relatively new EK pilot who uses the handle A380-800 driver. A year ago, all was sweetness and light and EK could do no wrong. His last few posts tell a rather different story.

[pool]

PPPS ... and the side-stick was never connected ...

[Jet II]

It is mind boggling having to read such stupid arguments every second day on PP. As if people having a job are not allowed to complain at all, because others have none. Very well orchestrated by tyrants and demagogues and numbly followed by morons.
According to your logic Aung San Suu Kyi is not allowed to complain about the house arrest and dismal human rights in Myanmar, because she has a house and millions others don't, so she should just shut up or leave! She can't, just as many others can't simply leave a place or a company.

Please get a bit of perspective - I hardly think that the lack of human rights in a military dictatorship is comparable to leaving a job you dont like. :rolleyes:

[Oblaaspop]

Cody, you have stated several times (with great authority I might add) that many people are leaving nay fleeing EK.

Just had a looksee at the seniority list and cannot come to the same conclusion, please back up your statement with fact or don't bother stating!

And yes I have heard the RUMOUR that a small handful of US F/O's didn't come back from holiday, but still don't have names nor can I see any evidence....

[flybooze]

I totally agree
:D

[fatbus]

And do you really think the company is all that concerned if that handful dont come back.

[sleeper]

The fact that just a "handfull" (5?) bailed out is telling. Not many companies have employees doing that!

[fatbus]

But do you really think EK cares.They actually would prefer to have some FO's leave, the ones that are giving them alot a grieve right now, you know the ones, the ones that were PROMISED this and that.

As long as you keep the bitching here and not the aircraft then bitch all you want, but please don't bring it to work its getting boring. Last rumour I heard was 80 Fo's quiting , so let them!

Did a flt the other day with someone that did not complain and it was so nice, actually fun.

[402 Driver]

Hey Cody,


I have been furloughed for 8 months and can not find anything in the aviation world. Seeing that you hate your company that much and it is so bad were you are why don't you let me have your spot. Even if it is true that you live from paycheck to paycheck you are flying, you are building experience en you should be getting a better pilot by doing so.

Just my two cents

[tbaylx]

you can have my spot..all yours mate, though they've probably already given it to someone else. And fyi if you're qualified for it there are several other outfits that are hiring right now, ek is not the only game in town.

[Fubaliera]

I was called for a Interview today despite the fact that I was already in the Hiring pool. The recruiter said the company is gonna re interview all the poolies. Then they told me that since im at QR I cant interview all in the same call. I thought the indians were disorganized. Before I interviewed at QR I interviewed at EK, since all EK offered was a promise, I took the QR job and Imformed EK that I would be going and they said it would not affect my status. Today they changed their mind. God bless them.

[grippen]

Tbaylx, if it's not a secret, where are you off to?

[Oblaaspop]

402, just so you are in no doubt, Cody isn't or damned well shouldn't be living from pay check to pay check.

He has already stated that he is a Captain and therefore on an average month should earn around $11,000 usd, and if he is living in company accom, then that is included in the package as is medical and 90% of school fees.

Yes Dubai is expensive, but if you can't survive on that, then you've seriously cocked up your personal finances!!

I believe he was referring to F/O's with kids living from month to month, but even then if you don't need to send money home and save heaps, you can have a pretty decent lifestyle on $6000 usd per month with the same benefits!

Hope this helps...

[Saltaire]

Just love hearing the DEC's complain....cruel injustice to others. Been here a couple years and talk the big talk :rolleyes: Lucky to have the opportunity I'd say. Zip it

[4PW's]

Hiring DECs or not?

[Fubaliera]

It sure looks like that. They said I had to resign before reinterviewing, or Reinterview because the first selection wasnt good enough I guess

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I would like to hear opinions on EK vs. Qatar.

The Qatar posts sound about the same...high negativity level... as EK's, but then manay Qatar posters say EK is light years better than Qatar. Does not make sense.

I had applied at EK, but now do not meet the minimums, as I only have about 400 hours on a plane that is big enough.

I will probably soon be based in DBX flying a DC-9.

cliff
NBO

[Plank Cap]

To all contemplating the decision between EK or QR;

I have flown for both, currently with the Dubai bunch. What can I say, other than EK is completely mismanaged and rapidly losing the plot in some fairly fundamental areas, including flight safety.

The remuneration 'deal' (not to be confused with contract) is steadily heading in the wrong direction, and terms and conditions will be eroded after you arrive, regardless of what you think you signed on joining..........

Oh yes and QR - they are worse.

[AFD]

has anybody already been called for an interview with emirates next month?

[puff m'call]

Just another good reason not to come to the sand pit.

It's been said time and time again about the T&C's in this airline, no matter what they say at interview and how they dress the job and company up in flowers and make it look pretty, it's NOT. It's all going down hill fast, no doubt at all.

Unless you're faced with floods, riots, starvation and poverty stay where you are.

Oh yeah and another good reason. Dewa just doubled everyone's utillity bills last month, expat tax they called it :ugh:

[Aircav]

Sorry, have not heard anything about a DEWA increase, where did you get that info from?

If that is the case then there is no point in being here from next year when the deductions for Emirates ill concieved cap starts.

[Jet II]

Not DEWA - Sharjah Electricity & Water Authority ;)

[T-6]

Hello,

Since you are shortlisted, how long does it take to receive an invitation for the screening?

Cheers,

[Air1980]

Same question here....how long is the shortlist wait?

[AFD]

we'd better call the shortlist...longlist

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

You guys should check out the Resignation thread on this board and ask yourselves why so many are packing their bags, at a time when jobs are realtively scarce????

You have been warned habibis

SyB :zzz:

[flyneo]

Dear all,

I absolutly have to agree with Sheikh !

Please make up your mind before joining EK...For those who have no Job at all-probably- but for those who have a job for the moment, stay there !!!

Lots of people joined EK as the market was booming and it was a GREAT place to work till 9 months ago. The managment is going ways for the moment and only God knows these ways...It has been proven over decades that what EK is doing for the moment to their pilots will go against them sooner or later..

If you want to have changes every day, more notes (FCI, FCN and so on) If you want your contract changed in a daily basis ( not for your good but for them) if you want to be treated like a monkey, work around 88-90 hours a month ( just below the threshold before overtime), get during your standby only nightshifts to India until the night becomes your day, if you want to get a warning letter for not peeing straight, forgetting your cap or loosing your ID card. If you want to stay at home in Dubai during the time that your wife gets birth to child in the country called home... ( I could continue but it would burst the size of the forum...)

I was as my colleagues proud to work for this company, but the times have changed, PLEASE, PLEASE be aware of that !!!!!!

Greetings from the sandpit ( or called Golden Cage),

neo

[sandbox5]

CP
From one group of new joiners last fall who were in temp acc for over 8-10 months...Out of 18 pilot familes...3 have split up.....
them the facts....

[White Knight]

Actually LR3 I don't think the new guys are going to want to sit next to you:rolleyes:anyway....

[kiwi78]

I have a safe job in the UK but am looking to move to the middle east with my family, purely to make more money to pay off flying debts. Is it worth it, after expenses, schools etc ?

[expat400]

I think that the numbers of DEC:s will be very small in EK in the future. They have changed the criteria from "widebody command" to "1500 hours on type in EK". I believe there are very few rated guys that would leave their current job for EK and now all the 747-400 guys are out.

[sanddune 1]

Here is the direct, simple, and honest answer: NO.
If you have a "safe job" where you are, stay there.

[763]

Has anyone been invited for an interview subsequent to recruitment being re-opened?

[CAVnotOK]

Plenty have been invited, but no-one wants to come anymore. Coupled with a large percentage of us who are already here looking at other options.

It is going to present some interesting times in the very near future.

[Touch'n'oops]

When the ME+EK first struck my interest, two years ago, I obviously headed to PPRUNE to get the dark side of EK (Let's be honest people only really go on here when f'd off). What I read didn't scare me off. I even went to visit friends working for EK in Dubai, all of them loved it... then!

Now I hear from every last one is "DON'T COME". I am gutted. I looked forward to the sand, sun and long hauling it. But, everything I hear now has turned me away. What annoys me the most is that if things do improve again, I can't trust that they will stay that way.

EK management you're getting your short term gain... but you're buggered when the pilot crunch comes!!!

[twieke]

Said it before and saying it again, ONLY come if you have no job or your company is likely to go bust soon.

Halas.

[CAVnotOK]

Wrong Sir Donald,

People are fukced off because they moved their families to Dubai, based on what they saw and lies they were told by EK.

People are fukced off because they signed a contract and committed to a company who couldn't give a rats arse about them or their family and completely disregarded that so called contract.

And lastly, I would think that it's more like 99.9% of EK Pilots who feel this way rather than your seemingly uneducated view of 0.1%.

I welcome the view of any other EK Drivers to see what is actually closer to the truth. Perhaps it is just me who is delusional???

[snaproll3480]

Sir Donald, we aren't referring to a sales pitch and promises, we are referring to contractual provisions which can be relied upon in every other part of the civilized world. Please do not insult these guys by acting like they were duped by a sly management team. They signed contracts with the understanding that the provisions would be followed and honored. How could a visit to the sandbox prevent or forecast the subsequent, egregious breaches that have occurred? Perhaps that level of dishonesty and blatant disregard for contracts is normal where you come from but in most first world nations contracts are honored or there is legal recourse to recoup damages if a contract is broken. IMHO the lack of any real contract law in that part of the world will be their downfall. Sure, laws do exist but we all know that some people are not subject to such petty things.

[Pin Head]

so when are they going to start screening?

[kiwi]

The truely telling thing on this whole issue is that only 6 years ago, it was the EK pilots who were defending the company against attack on this site.
The rot started when TCK arrived and started ripping the guts out of conditions of the Trainers. Now AAR has taken the lead in stealing away conditons throughout flight operations (and I assume engineering) to the extent many are looking for other options.
It takes a lot a c..p to fall to break the inertia of simply staying in the job you hold, but I believe critical mass is close for many EK drivers.
0.1% of the EK pilots on this site that are dissatisfied? I don't think so!
Just my opinion for what it's worth....

[Schibulsky]

Just to give you the view of a soon to be ex-desk jockey:
At the HQ we chat a lot with guys from load controllers to fleet management and believe me, they are almost ALL p:mad: off and shocked by the recent developments.
Off the record they admit the destruction AAR is causing, that includes management pilots!
The lower ranks are staying cause they have no alternative and the higher ones cause they got paid so much. At the moment colleagues with good qualifications are leaving i.e. Doctors and middle management but also lots of FOs, some of them going to less paid jobs just to get out of here.
What you will learn here very fast is that quality of living is much more important than money:ok:
I doubt its only 1% of EK who are posting here and I am still waiting to meet a happy EK pilot...btw I met them a year ago...the ones coming from real crappy outfits!
So good luck to the ones still determined to come here...you have been warned!

[peternowell]

Fatbus. Do you think I will be contacted? I have:bored: 6000+ hours, 3000 Jet (EFIS) and 1000+ PIC. Currently commanding a Saab340 in the Bahamas.

Thanks!
Peter

[peternowell]

I'll take a 380 FO seat! HAHA!:rolleyes:

[yossy]

Hourly Flying Pay
An Hourly Flying pay is paid on block hours up to a threshold of between 83 to 92 hours.

• Productivity Pay
Productivity Pay is also available for block hours worked above the monthly Hourly Flying Pay threshold of between 83 to 92 hours.

the Above article is quoted emirates career website.
I can understand the meaning.So would someone help me understand the meaning?

If I flew say 78 hours, could I get hourly hourly flying pay?

And how much would that be if I flew 78hours?

Thanks infos!

[CAVnotOK]

Yossy,

You will receive Hourly Flying Pay for any hours flown. For the 78hr month, foran FO it will be I think 45dhs/hr. Or, 3510dhs. (USD956).

No Productivlty pay for the 78hr month.
92hrs for the 31 day month, down to 83hrs for the 28 day month if you get my drift.

Basically, you will work almost to the maximum before being eligable for Productivity Pay.

Is that what you call an Oxymoron?? or just an EKmoron??

Cheers.

[Air1980]

On another note, just checked my status, and it went form shortlisted to 'under review' - anyone else experience this, or know what it may mean?

[yossy]

Thank you CAVnotOK!
You gave me a very good explanation!
Now I understand the Ekmoron system.
Flying 83hours in a month sounds very exhausting.
But in EK has no domestic route,and all flgihts are go and back patterns and
many long haul flights.
So seems to be very efficient to earn flight time.
I'm flying average 1.5hours flight around 50-60 hours a month and also
many deadheads which are counted half the flight time as flt time.
50-60hours flt time against duty hours a month around 150 hrs.
Which do you think it is exhausting job?
I guess that depends on fleet you are in though,How's like rosters in EK?

Thanks!

[CAVnotOK]

Yossy,

There are a lot of other factors that must be worked in.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for the past 3 months I have been rostered 90hrs + each month. This duty time begins 1hr before departure, however pre-departure briefing starts 1hr 35mins before departure. Duty ends when the brakes are set, even though you are not generally of the jet for another 20-30mins later.

You will find that a majority of Duties are on the back of the clock, and quite often in some very challenging environments. Classic example. Mumbai turnaround. Get picked up from home at 7:30pm for 9:45pm Dep. Arrive Mumbai around 1am and then 1hr 30 mins on ground. Dep around 2:30am to arrive DXB around 6am. Leave HQ around 7am and home again when ever the traffic allows.

Sounds pretty straight forward, but when you factor in poor ATC, local traffic, badly equipped airport facilities, monsoon, likely holding back in Dubai it becomes a very fatigue ridden duty. Compound the effects by whatever other duty(s) you have had prior, and I think you get my point. I'm not trying to paint a bleak picture, but that is exactly what you can regularly expect with EK.

Bit of food for thought. Happy to stand corrected if anyone has a different view to this kind of pattern.

Cav

[drop kick]

No thats all very true, I personally have worked flat out for the last six month and not a penny in overtime. Also alot of what you do does not qualify as credit, sims, SEP ect but its all still work (but no money!)

In addition you will have to complete numerous and time consuming on line training courses for the company, this is in your own time and gains no credit.

The flying is not easy to accumulate, sure there are some long haul but its mixed in with alot of crap and the bidding system will not help you much.
you will work to the limit basically each month. Personally I cannot remember an easy month.

If you are comming from a civilized country think very long and hard, you may or may not be aware but you are protected by some fairly good employment laws and rights, here you are not, they can and will do what they like when they like.

[Watchdog]

Never a truer word spoken Pruner.

[lowstandard]

Indeed, check the latest tweak to the bidding system compliments of dickhED's latest FCN.

Peternowell, I would bet that a large majority of EK pilots would love to trade positions with you! Myself included.

Coming to EK will help you in one way for sure, realising what you really want to do for a flying job. It was pretty good 5-6 years ago but now its just a stop off to something else. Most guys talk about being home everynight as a dream job, gear down at sundown.....

You will need a strong marriage, fiscal restraint and good exit strategy (i.e. were leaving tonight) to survive here.


Good Luck

[casio man]

I don't get it with the new restriction on only 2 same layovers a month...the bidding system does not work unless you are pretty high up the totem pole or its your top or 2nd top bidding month.

The rest of the months you get sent all over the EK network at the whims and fancies of their ops requirement. And when they roster you for 90 hours without fail, there are a lot of opportunities for other destinations to be included.

Just another one of the stupid things to screw up our lives.
:hmm:

[fatbus]

What part of expat pilot do you not understand? EK owns you.They will bo whatever they want with you and you have no recousre. For those who are thinking of coming this way be prepared to have no rights or say

[puff m'call]

Try asking this one to the HR gimp at interview and see what the answer is:

What is the point of me signing a contract with you when the company has no intension of honoring it?

See what the answer is.

And while you're at it, ask them if it's in the contract that there's a Cap on the utilities? Which they say they pay. :confused:

It's about 21500 Dhs a year which equates to about 4000 STG which sounds alot you might say, well I can asure you it's not. :ugh: and DEWA can just put their charges up any time they like, so think about that when you buy your own house or flat.

[kempilot]

To some of us in the US, 83 hours of block is normal. Backside of the clock flying normal. I have not had overtime pay since 1989. That is no BS
A very easy month for a lot of us is 78 hours.

I am not slamming anyone, just pointing out that SOME not ALL the gripes on this thread seem pretty normal to some of us.

[CAVnotOK]

Good for you Kempilot, you are the EK dream candidate. It's guys of your calibre who one day become Chief Pilots in an airline such as EK.

I'm not trying to slam anyone, but just saying what is reality in this part of the world. Wish you luck.

BTW, the normal here is not 83hrs, but 90-92hrs. The problem is that when hired the agreed OT threshold was around 78hrs.

[kempilot]

CAVnotOk

Don't know what you are suggesting by "guys of our caliber" but I am just stating what is mostly normal here in the USA. I know pilots at JM that are shocked when they see how much we fly in America.

You who are used to flying low block hours would die here.

[CAVnotOK]

Kempilot,

Don't want to burst your bubble on how hard you have been working, but frankly speaking all flying I have done domestically in the US is a walk in the park compared to what we experience in this part of the world.

[PorkKnuckle]

I am just stating what is mostly normal here in the USA

What does that have to do with the UAE?

Read our lips: 90hr+ rosters are normal here.

Factoring.

In the past pilots have flown (flight, not duty) over 100hrs/month again and again. And this is in ATC and operational environments in which, unlike the first-world US scene, the pilots are not spoon-fed, to say the very least.

[kingpost]

kempilot

I think what he's trying to say is that the 90 - 92 hours you'll do here is a "little" more taxing because of the nature of the flights. You can end up doing a SFO, 2 days off followed by a HKG followed by a 12 hour rest to do a midnight Indian trip (in the monsoon).

There is just no way one can recover from this sort of flying, it really takes it out of you. Recovery starts when you try and go on leave and get no days off before your leave. You get home and then fall sick because you're body is not use to relaxing. After your leave, no days off after, you're back into the sausage machine.....

Consider carefully

[Chandler Bing]

True
I found myself unable to recover.
I'm on my way to a healthier place to live and a healthier company to work for. Anyway, there is nothing worse than what I've just experienced.
I prefer a low cost operation in Asia or europe. At least you knw what you go for, EK is just a hidden lowcostlike with a major difference : a low cost anywhereelse can't afford to kill people.

This place is hell and this company is going to kill people soon.It was close in MEL already. Time to go

Bye bye

[Bandit FO]

You sound like the same chaps who say "Oh, the drivers in Dubai can't be any worse than in New York or L.A." Try flying an EK roster for a few months. What you're doing now will be seem like a holiday.

[snaproll3480]

To some of us in the US, 83 hours of block is normal. Backside of the clock flying normal. I have not had overtime pay since 1989. That is no BS
A very easy month for a lot of us is 78 hours.

I am not slamming anyone, just pointing out that SOME not ALL the gripes on this thread seem pretty normal to some of us.

Don't know what you are suggesting by "guys of our caliber" but I am just stating what is mostly normal here in the USA. I know pilots at JM that are shocked when they see how much we fly in America.

You who are used to flying low block hours would die here.

I don't know who you work for but you have a crap contract if all that is true. What is your overtime threshold or min guarantee and how little do you fly if you haven't had overtime in 20 years? Yeah I flew 80 to 95 hours a month back in the US as well but I never flew backside of the clock and the longest sectors were 4 hours. The most time zones we crossed were three and, if there was backside flying, there were very specific restrictions and extra pay for it. How many red-eyes do you do back to back with a day trip in between? I would argue that that never happens back home.

I would rather fly 4 sectors during winter out of NY than an India turn around that starts at midnight and gets back at noon, that stuff is brutal. I wanted to do long haul but ended up doing regional flying at all times of the night on a widebody.

[Iver]

snaproll,

I hear Jet Blue is hiring onto the E190 out of JFK and adding more aeroplanes in 2010. Take your widebody experience (and fun midnight India flying memories) and apply to JB if you are a US citizen. At least you got some interesting (or not so) experience on the widebodies to reflect upon...

Good luck

[kempilot]

Snaproll3480

America West Airlines, now called US Air. Red eyes out of LAS. We were known as the Vegas Vampires. You are right one of the worst contracts in the industry. The last time I ever got paid time and a half was at Command Airways in 1990.
Straight pay for what you fly.

I am not disagreeing with anyone. I now realize I have just never have been as fortunate as some of you to have had any of those things such as overtime pay etc.

If you don't know any different........

[kempilot]

Bandit FO

I am from Jamaica, I challenge you to rent a car and drive from Kingston to Montego Bay

[IXNAT]

Kempilot,
A few differences between US flying and here. What are your duty rigs to get you to your 80+ hours? What is your duty time per month? Does your duty end when the parking brake is set. Believe me, not one month of flying in the US for over 30+ years was as challenging and fatiguing as flying over nine hours on a turnaround on the backside of the clock during monsoon season into India in a non radar enviornment.

If you prang an aircraft in the US, will you be arrested? Will your union protect you? You done any 16 hour flights across 11 time zones, turn around and fly 16 hours back with only 28 hours of layover?

All the flying around here is not like that, and some is very good and fun. But to compare duty time, duty rigs, union contracted flying and employment, FAA independent oversight to what happens, not just here but other out of US companies, is absurd. There simply is no comparison.

[SOPS]

and as I have said here before..we at EK have no "duty rigs jigs figs or migs"....whatever they are...but IF YOU COME HERE...expecting rigs jigs or whatever...forget it...it is simply work work work.......

[troff]

30 days? 'ello?
Wat's dat?
Didn't it used to be 42?
No credit for leave so 80 hours packed into 3 weeks before or after a week off...
Work more- less time off. Only way to get a few weeks off is to go time x!

[Bandit FO]

No thanks, Dred! I used the driving story as a parable for people that think 90 plus hours at EK can't be so bad. It's a dirty ras klat mon!

[kiwi]

Guys, you can say whatever you like here, for many it will be a waste of effort. No matter how true and factual the info is that you pass here, many will not take any notice as they are blinded by BSJ (Big Shiney Jet) syndrome and will ignore all advice and facts presented.
They will be the new generation of dissatisfied in a year or two!
As has been said many times, if you're unemployed then you should consider EK but if you have a reasonable job in a nice part of the planet you really will regret giving it up.

[Saltaire]

Come on now, what's the problem? Things couldn't be better...

India and other glorious local night turn arounds
85-90 hours per month for no extra pay other than a pittance of flt pay
Manually inserted flights to suit maximum rostering initiative
Increased reserve coverage, including sporatic weekly reserve
Reduced leave availability and newly announced forced leave
Poisonous internal morale with maximum accountability for all decisions
No open door policy or so called non punitive reporting
Utility cap on villas
Minimal days off before and after leave, due 90 hour bid windows
Unilateral contract changes with no negotiations

:O

[oz in dxb]

EK have announced more Indian flights.
Warning, there will be even more flights coming soon!

[White Knight]

Yeah abc1 - that's how it always used to be in the relative good old days:\:\

[atpcliff]

Hi!

IXNAT:
I sat on reserve for 240 consecutive hours, and was then called for a trip.
I sat on reserve for about 72 consecutive hours, and was then called at 0300 hours, after 1/2 hour of sleep, to be in Operations within 25 minutes, for a 16 hour duty day.
I did a 25 hour duty day (2 man crew).
I knews guys that were asked to count one of there 24 hour reserve periods as a day off, retroactively.
My roomate had a VERY long duty day, and LOTS of flight hours, from FWA-Yellowknife, and then had to do a tail-end ferry from Yellowknife to El Paso.

At a -121 airline, all FAA approved.

cliff
NBO

[Instant Hooligan]

Sorry cliff,
It is far from faa approved. I don't doubt that it happened but please dont say that it was faa approved and legal.

[ironbutt57]

Yes Hooligan, it is indeed, reserve/standby if not called, out is not duty..while under most ALPA contracts it pays 3.5 block per day, in fact you may sit many consecutive days on reserve, governed only by the term of your CBA with your company..FTLs in the USA really suck..:ugh:

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The POI from the local FSDO, and the FAA Regional Office both either knew that all the above was happening, and did not say that any of it was not allowed and/or specifically approved the above practices.

That is one of the BIG problems with the FAA. While the head office may have certain interpretations of various rules, they let the Regional Offices, FSDOs and POIs interpret the regs however they choose.

Oh, and I was not on reserve for 10 days (as in, 16 hours per day, with 8 hours off), I was on for 240 CONSECUTIVE hours, and then was called and legal for a trip. Part-121 supplemental does not require any crew rest BEFORE a trip starts, and there is no "on call" status, officially, just duty and rest. So, I wasn't on DUTY for 240 hours, and no rest is required BEFORE the trip, so you can be on reserve indefinitely, and then be called, day or night, for a trip, AND THEN you are allowed to exceed your 16 duty hours, according to some of the Regional Offices/FSDOs, if the trip was ORIGINALLY scheduled to be completed in 16 hours. So, for 2 crew, a trip of potentially 36 hours of duty is legal!!

Not very nice!!!

This is why ALPA is trying to get rid of -121 supplemental, and not have separate regs for them....want to combine them into -121 Domestic/Intntl.

Currently, in the US, aviation organizations are allowed to fly commercially under the following sets of regulations:

-121 Domestic
-121 International (Different Flight/Rest/Duty Rules
-121 Supplemental (charter and frieght-USA Jet, FedEx, UPS: WAY Different Flight/Duty/Rest rules)
-125 (-121 airplanes that supposedly only fly for one customer, but in actually compete against the -121 supplemental ops: The only Flight/Duty/Rest rules are 16 hour duty day and 8 hours rest)
-135 (small aircraft charter, helo medevac: Different Flight/Duty/Rest hours than -121)
-91 Subpart K (Fractionals-NetJets: No Flight/Duty/Rest rules, as Part 91 is non-commercial...makes LOTS of sense!)
-91 Subpart F (large and fractional airplanes that are allowed to operate Part 91, which is non-commercial, but then charge money for their flights!!! Since it is Part 91, there is NO Crew Flight/Duty/Rest rules)
-91 (private, and General Aviation (Exxon, Coca-cola) Many of the private jet owners fly their aircraft commercially with NO Crew Flight/Duty/Rest rules. It is illegal, but allowed by many FAA Regional and FSDO offices.
There is also separate commercial flight rules for Agricultural, Sight-seeing ops, etc.)


cliff
NBO

[4HolerPoler]

Fascinating stuff Cliff but can we keep to the topic please?