EU Environment trading scam

[Kak Klaxon]

What a pile of steaming ****e, I hope I am not the only one pulling my hair out trying to fill in this crud.
How many Civil servants are getting life time jobs out of this with public holidays,9 to 5 hours and final salary pensions.
I doubt our plane will be flying in 2012, what a waste of my time.
Now, where is that Civil service application form....... all aboard the gravy train, next stop the House of Lords.

[Paradise Lost]

"What a steaming pile of ****e"

I sincerely hope you have applied for carbon offsets for the above deposit! It's people like you that have got this planet into the mess we're in now.
Could you pls put the "How to join the Civil Service" link on here when you find it. Thanks.........PL

[FL480]

i did start to fill in the papers when our civil aviation authority said we were not concerned since we burn less than 10 000 ton Co2 yearly.
I first thought than we were considered as "small emitters" (who have to fill in the forms as well) but according to our aothority we "have nothing to do to comply with the EU directive"
Maybe having some less than 5.7t aircraft NTOW helps in this case !

[hawker750]

No wonder your sub 5.7 tonne aircraft emit no carbon if you choose to fly them at FL 480!

[HS125]

This will be the biggest freud since VAT.

Im absolutely disgusted with this and don't understand why we don't get together as an industry and tell them no thank you..... Oh thats right, we never do.

[Flintstone]

Sigmund, Clement or Emma?

[Daifly]

We did HS125 - through BBGA and EBAA (EBAA for the record are actually being very practical about the whole thing, they realise we can't win and so are working on an easier way for us all to report thus at least making the "freud" less labour intensive) - which I'm sure you'll agree is more reasoned than just "no" (and I'm assuming seeing as you reckon nobody said anything, you didn't check with those "who never do" on what they were(n't) doing?). But what exactly do you think would have happened if we'd have said "no"? We're hardly a big impact share of the market are we?

The airlines have all signed up to it without a whimper and the only ones who said anything were us GA lot and we're about as important to HM Gov't as a Libyan Terrorist is to Scotland.

I don't agree with a second of what it's about or what it's trying to achieve as they need to sort out China's pollution first (though I guess that's a bit of a NIMBY view from me) but there's really bugger all any of us can do about it as it's a dictat from on high that we're lumbered with - blame Ted Heath if you want to blame anyone (he's dead, can't defend himself...) and the only thing we can therefore do is make it an easy process for us all to work with.

Or start a revolution. And like you say, "we never do" do we?

Flinty - Schaden? :ok:

[Sepp]

Freud apparently means "peace" ... ooooooooor perhaps stems from Frewie - and thence distantly from the gaelic 'frith'... which roughly means "small" :)

[411A]

All this nonsense (cap'n steal) is being debated now in the USA.
The Europeans have dug their hole...now let 'em lay in it.
They will not be missed....at all, by others that will pass them by.
I expect the Chinese, just as an example, are laughing up their sleeve.:rolleyes::}

[Daifly]

411A - debate it all you like but there's bugger all else to land on when you're trying to get to Paris! :-)

[The Beer Hunter]

You know, just when I think 411A has reached his peak of bigotted, misinformed, self-centred arrogance he goes and tops it (I nearly wrote 'tops himself' but that would be wishful thinking).

Is there the slightest possibility of him ever contributing to a thread without being an obnoxious, redneck, oaf?

[PicMas]

What did you expect?
The guy is a product of the worlds greatest nation, that emits the most CO2, Methane, etc.

you know... the country where people live in trailers, vote for Bush and refuse to ratify the Kyoto protocol. Somebody else will take the responsibility.

Old beatup pickup truck/ old beatup Tristar - Tomato/ Tomatoe

[Flintstone]

You're wrong PicMas. Wrong, wrong, wrong!

And some good 'ole boy will be along later to tell you about it.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_soY3d4LJqV4/RjM8oIrmmKI/AAAAAAAAAFE/gpisK9Lqb90/s320/Rednecks.jpg

A L1011 captain and co-pilot earlier today.


PS. Someone will have to PM me any good 'ole boy replies. He....I mean they are on my ignore list.

[flybyshark]

Those guys cant be the flight crew, both of them have their own trousers. PF gets to wear the pants on (wait for it) each leg :}

[Empty Cruise]

"...That ain't no Hank Williams song!!!"
:ouch:

[hawker750]

"the Kyoto protocol."

Don't confuse the dear chap he really thought that was a Clint Eastwood movie.

[HS125]

Is anyone managing to get cogent help with this?

The implimentation is dire, I received a flyer from an outfit called c-sense offering assistance but haven't got a response yet. It was nice of the EA to make a template but its largely irrelevant to our operations.

Im probably not giving them an adequate chance but Im twitchy because of the timescale.

On the matter of opposition, I know we didn't just keep quiet [as an industry] I just felt that if there was one worth taking to the streets over, this had to be it.

[Daifly]

As much as I hate to say it, and sadly, I think that as a nation we're so overwhelmed by things that require revolt that we've given up and are all just lying back and taking it. Not ideal, not great, nothing to be proud of, but I think we're all aware that if the government (they can forget the capital "G" now) think it's a good idea, by the time we're asked they've already agreed to it with Europe (who get a capital "E" because they tell me I have to). If only there was some pride and morals left in politicians - it's really hard to believe that there was once.

- If anyone does want to start a revolution, please let me know, I could do something next Saturday morning if that works?

[FLEXJET]

You could join the club:
Global Warming Petition Project (http://www.petitionproject.org/)

[Kak Klaxon]

Hi HS 125, I have nearly finished doing my application, I have no idea if I have answered a lot of the questions correctly, I want to use the Eurocontrol PAGODA system but the Eurocontrol web says its not ready yet, I have had to make up a lot of new procedures and give them fancy names to answer a lot of the questions.
All I need to do now is construct the flow chart thing but my IT skills are so poor that I dont know where to start.
My gut feeling is that my application will be rejected because I dont understand what a lot of the questions mean.
I will let you know how we get on, for info we have one plane on a private op, the form seems to assume that we are British Airways.

[capt.sparrow]

we have one plane on a private op

will you be producing more than 10K T of Co2 with one a/c? Wont you be classified as a small emitter and be exempt from the 'plan' nightmare or have I got this wrong :eek:

[mattman]

Only charter ops (i.e got a valid AOC) that fall under 243 flights in a consecutive four month period OR under 10,000 tons of Co2 will be excempt.

The rest hold on tight this is going to be a bumpy ride.

The application is set out for the airline boys, who have there departments created for this single issue.

As to the PRAGODA model, its a rude word on the application form. If you fall under the small emitter CAT, then just say " A Eurocontrol and ETS approved monitoring system", as this has been been put into the ammendents in the Directive.

Eurocontrol have said they will have something in September which will be used for the monitoring. Maybe!

Guys this is just a huge scam to push BuisAV out. When the trading period starts in 2012, the Co2 (which is a comodity) will trade due to supply and demand (basically) so what costs Euro12.00 per Co2 ton today can cost anything in 2012.

There is no accurate way to forsee what operational expenses will be in the future.
All told, now be prepared for huge fines if not compliant.

Only good thing is they are so confused about how to implement it that some member states have people with no idea on aviation let alone Co2. This could backlog hugely.
At the moment, apply to your member state and wait for a response. They cant fine you if you have tried. They should be able to give you the guidance you need unless your in the darker parts of the EU.

[flyingfemme]

Only charter ops (i.e got a valid AOC) that fall under 243 flights in a consecutive four month period OR under 10,000 tons of Co2 will be excempt.

As I read it, on-demand charter ops won't qualify for the exemption. Only scheduled airlines operating between defined city-pairs can fit that one.

Eurocontrol have said they will have something in September which will be used for the monitoring.
Haven't they noticed it's already halfway through September? Can I borrow their calender when it gets to tax paying time?

On the upside, I heard this week from one of the fuel card companies that they have found their way onto the official list of operators.........never having owned, or operated, any aircraft is, apparently, no bar to being persecuted! :ugh:

They have also targeted operators of B200s that are actually under the weight limit.......the Eurocontrol database was designed for a different purpose where weights are rounded up. So far nobody at the DTI has been able to grasp this argument.

[mattman]

Flyingfemme

In total agreement, I never said they would actually have a system working let alone approved and in place.
BUT they have agreed to implement it, unless some wise A$$ in Brussels decides we all need to play airline, and changes the Directive.

The whole thing is open to iterpretation and thats excactly what is happening. My Authority, which is not the brightest wanted me to complete a reporting form as well:eek:
What the!!!!! we have not even started the monitoring period let alone my plan has not been approved yet,,,,, long discussions on the phone about that one.

This whole thing is going south fast and when the idiots in the EU catch a wake up, there desks are going to piled high with the very rainforests they are trying to protect.

[Kak Klaxon]

Capt Sparrow, yes I hope to be counted as a small emitter but in the UK I have to produce details of a plan in the common data section before I can apply for the simplified procedure.(if any uk guys think this is not correct please let me know as it will save me a lot of time)
Also its nothing to do with our CAA, its our environment agency who are running this.
I asked a question about using the Eurocontrol system but it takes 10 working days to get an answer,no answer yet after 8 working days, guys if you have not started this process start now because it is horrific.

Good luck to you all.

[Sepp]

I have a written assurance (hah!) from the EA that we would fall outwith the scheme due the 243 sector rule ... however we were included in the final list anyway, and the hitherto useful and friendly helpline staff are (oh, why am I not surprised?) suddenly not contactable.

Marvellous.

[Kak Klaxon]

Hi SEPP, If your aircraft MTOM is less than 5.7 tonnes then you should not be on the list.
If you are a non commercial op, do less than 243flights per 3 months in the last year and produce less than 10,000 tonnes a year of co2 then you can use the simplified procedure.
The problem is that the simplified procedure, ie using eurocontrol data on your flights is not operational, it may be operational at sometime in September,it may not.
You still need to fill in the forms if your over 5.7t but miss out sections 5,6,7 and 8.
The EA are not able to ammend the list so if your on it go to the EA website and follow the link to the EU to try and get off the list.

[Sepp]

KK - thanks for the reply :)

We're commercial, over 5.7, less than 243 sectors in the qualifying period(s) and well below the 10Ktonnes limit. Attempts to get the error corrected are alredy underway, but moving at a typical govt. dept. crawl...