A380 OBM's

[RRTrent]

Are there many interested L/H QAL's OBM's wanting to transfer to the 380 for the next few aircraft - it's a hot topic on the Airbus now with S/H and AO ex CSM's coming in numbers who would have flown on the a/c for 1 or 2 bid periods before more OBM's are needed (who will probably stroll right into the job from 737's and the like) and also some existing A380 crew seeking a career path.

I wonder what the company would like to do versus what they may have to do versus keeping morale amongst existing crew at the level it is at...surely a small upgrade school can't be too expensive?

Interesting call QCC - hope you get it right and not just based on $$$ - unravelling the current A380 culture (not for all) may be a huge mistake. The 1st 4 (start-up) are here and it's 'supposedly' open to all as of number 5?

Think carefully QCC Managers...it may be a bigger decision and have more significant ramifications than you think.:confused:

[The real Louise]

Patty,No wonder these threads get moved around.Please try and be civil.
Interesting call QCC - hope you get it right and not just based on $$$
They don't know any other way:ugh:

RRTrent,The problem is that QAL crew are not very interested in the A380 because of the work rules.That means that most crew on it will be QCCA where ever they come from.
The managers know this and there is not much we can do.

[twiggs]

There will definitely be plenty of QAL crew going to A380 who have aspirations to be an OBM, especially while we still have the right of return.
It's will be the only way to get a promotion for a while I would say.
I think they will give a majority of CSS positions to QCCA and a majority of CSM positions to QAL.
I doubt many CSM positions will go to S/H.

[Pegasus747]

the current surplus is likely to delay direct promotions as it will create surpluses of OBM's. As soon as the economic downturn turns around in the other direction promotions will be on offer again. Given that until 787 or another type comes along, the only growth vehicle is the A380, ergo the promotions will only on A380.

I think N-BW is correct in that the a CSS with experience on the A380 is more likely to get the CSM A380 gig before a CSS with no A380 experience. And a flight attendant with experience on the A380 will more likely get a CSS A380 gig.

Its the carrot of promotion that QF will dangle for QAL crew to go to A380 in the longer term.

[twiggs]

I agree with Pegasus and therefore as I said, I think they will give a majority of CSS positions to QCCA(744) and a majority of CSM positions to QAL(744).
Of course this is in the short term.
N-BW of course I am speculating , but that is all I can do.
Thank you for welcoming my post.:rolleyes:

[Pegasus747]

Also if they start appointing the SH Crew to CSM position they will totally burn the LH crew that are already there, and that will not be sensible. It will also see the existing OBM's retaliate by all going back to 747 world and leaving Qantas to deal with the results. The existing OBM"s on the A380 are very keen for for existing QAL and QCCA crew to have opportunities for promotion. The SH are unlikely to be promoted while on temp transfer

[Jelly Shots]

and the return is only available if positions are available at the time....and with the current surplus there is no guarantee.
Can anyone confirm this is true?

[Pegasus747]

totally incorrect. The FAAA has an iron clad guarantee that you have the right of return to mainline at the expiry of the two years. Some time before the two years are up you will be asked whether you wish to return or extend..(still retaining the right of return) . if you decide to return to mainline you will give the approximate date you wish to return and CC Management have "GUARANTEED" your return give or take a bid period to ensure not everyone returns at the same time.

If that occurs it will be staged over two bid periods to ensure proper balances and transfers back to A380 from mainline.

QED thats it!

[GalleyHag]

I can assure you that very little interest will be shown in OBM positions from exisiting SH CSM's most are very, very happy to be an F/A for a couple of years.

Yes the ex AO QAL CSM's maybe interested but I highly doubt they would get a serious look in over exisiting QAL LH crew and QCCA crew (but never say never).

When does aircraft number 5 arrive? Whats the vibe like now that a group of SH crew have already gone over onto the aircraft?

[Exceptional]

Does anyone know if or when recruitment for new CSS/CSM from the existing crew on the A380 will occur.

[Exceptional]

Thanks for the info :)

[RRTrent]

Interesting discussion - I imagine that if the next 2 aircraft are due in November we should see the company play it's hand soon as to how they are going to fill the slots - personally I hope they do offer upgrades and allow everyone across both fleets to apply - it's not as if it is going to be a large number of folk is it?

If QAL are not interested and I doubt can be forced over - then perhaps promotions may well be on the cards...I guess it depends on how big the surplus is and we all know after all these years how hard it is for the company to get the 'numbers' right!!

[GalleyHag]

Maybe that explains the rumours that QF have decided not to take any more short haul crew over to the A380 until next year although they were advised of their approximate start dates by bid period some time ago. The rumour is the balance of crew scheduled to go over in 266 and the crew for 267 and 268 will not start now until aircraft 7 arrives some time in the new year.

[Exceptional]

I know a lot of crew on Reserve this bid period that have been sitting around for 10 + more days on stand-by. The A380 is very over staffed at the moment but if they keep rostering back to back LAX with a single X day between trips you can imagine the sick leave will increase.

I also heard a rumour that LHR based crew will be crewing 1 x A380 flight all the way to Sydney next Bid Period so the LHR crew can attend Exceptional.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[GalleyHag]

What do you mean by extra hours? I understand QCCA (A380) crew can be rostered more hours than QAL but what sort of hours are you talking?

[Grove]

If short haul crew are not being transfered to long haul untill aircraft 7 arrives they may be waiting for some time. We were told by an A380 Captain recently that aircraft 5 and 6 will arrive by the end of this year but no more deliverys [ aircraft 7 ] untill Oct next year...

[GalleyHag]

Well thats the rumour no more training schools for short haul onto A380 this year. They may not have to wait until aircraft 7 but no training will be happening this year.

Does anyone know if the company is obligated to take them now or can they just disguard the arrangement?

[Pegasus747]

AC 7 is now not due to arrive until mid 2011. All AC due in 2010 have been deferred until 2011

[GalleyHag]

So where does that leave the crew that were due to go across onto aircraft 4, 5 and 6 from shorthaul? There has been no communication from the company apart from the rumours out on line some people are in the process of moving states I heard today as they are anticipating their start date as per the bid period when they were originally advised.

I was of the understanding this was an agreement between both divisions of the FAAA and the company to avoid CR in long haul so short haul returned the 25% regional flying and all A330 flying domestically and now it appears the company is not going to honour the arrangement.

Crew always knew it was a ploy to reduce the Cairns base which was achieved in Bid Period 265 now it appears that they dont really care about the balance of crew.

This does not directly effect me anymore, however you would think at the very least some sort of communication to the effected crew would be good idea especially if they are packing up house, home and family on the belief they are starting in the bid period advised on the list.

[Pegasus747]

My understanding is that there are 4 classes of SH crew that are commencing training in Long Haul in the next few months. The crew have been advised of their approximate start date. Other than these 4 classes i am not aware of any others....

[Grove]

Also, Part Time positions for A380 crew confirmed this week. I think for a fixed period of two years, starting next roster. Maybe this will open up some positions for short haul transfers???

[twiggs]

I would guess that all the OBM's that are based in MEL and want to be based in SYD will apply for A380 SYD spots.

[lowerlobe]

So it looks as though things have not changed since I left....

Who can you trust....not the office that's for sure.Pity because the job is a great one if they simply worked with crew instead of against them.

They make moving the goal posts an art form don't they....

There is a previous poster who has said that closing Melbourne down would be a positive and now says that with this backflip you have the chance to move back to Sydney....looks like she doesn't care much for melbourne.

As Bla_Bla said ......The conundrum this raises.

Do I go on commuting or take up this offer and.....

No roster or be able to plan your life...

The extra hours...

Limited flying to only a few destinations for the while at least.....

Mind you the office will pick and choose which QAL On Board Managers they take with this as well....I doubt experience will count for much.

[twiggs]

it would be a matter of giving up the commuting to become QCCA ???

Not become QCCA but to work under QCCA conditions for 2 years (except pay).

[RedTBar]

I go along with Bla_Bla and Lobey and say this is a kick in the face for the QCCA crew and their aspirations.It is also a backhanded compliment to the QAL crew.Even with the added expense which Darth would not agree to the airline has now said it wants the more expensive crew for the job.

This could be because they have problems with what they see as the right candidates within QCCA or it might be because they don't want to spend the money on upgrade courses for existing QCCA crew.With the extra expense of QAL crew I would think that an upgrade course would be cheaper anyway.

Either way I don't think Darth would have gone along with this.

You might get some crew who commute to Melbourne for the job and who live in Sydney but it's a close call with the downgrade in working conditions.If it was so attractive to work on for QAL crew then they would have enough already.For the record this shows how much twiggs was wrong about the destinations being more important than the money.

You might make some more money but you don't have any say in your roster and you have the extra hours and flying to the same spot everytime would be like working in the same office every day,day after day fater day.

Lobey is also right to about who they will pick for the job.That'll make for some fun reading.

[indamiddle]

any csm's out there want to post their average hours for the last 2 rosters? romour has it that csm hours have not been high at all. this rumour was attributed directly to the toupee himself. twiggs, don't reply to me, you are on my 'ignore list'.

[Grove]

I must have been speaking to different C.S.M to you NBW... Several I know are doing 3-4 trips per roster... A whole lot less than the A/C and B.F.A's who's rosters are very close to 220hrs.

[DEFCON4]

Qantas is a business.The efficient allocation resources is the name of the game.The good of the business is more important than the good of the individual.
To be blunt experience is lacking on the A380 and this has been magnified by the closure of the Thai base.Enthusiasm is wonderful and should be applauded but it needs to be coupled with experience.
Contrary to popular belief all is not well in A380 land

[lowerlobe]

DEFCON4 is right.....

The office has no sentimentality or loyalty other to itself....

During your career some decisions will go your way and some will not.It's probably a case of being in the right place at the right time or the wrong place at the right time....or..well you know what I mean.

With this, if some crew from Melbourne take up the offer it is a possible win for those who prefer to stay and commute.Their seniority will go up and hopefully that is reflected in their bidding.

Those who go over to the Dugong will get some more money and can give commuting the flick and put up with the downside.It will all depend on personal circumstances I guess as to which you prefer.

Trying to second guess the office is a fruitless and mostly frustrating waste of time.This is basically because they don't know what they're going to do the next day themselves.

Best of luck to all...

[lowerlobe]

N-BW...There are plenty of crew with 20 plus years of flying and a lot of them could not run a chook raffle or would even want to...

If there is a problem with the cabin service from a crew point of view it is because they are not picking the right people for the jacket on the 380....

A good CSM makes all the difference whereas a mediocre CSM can make a 3 day trip seem like 6 months....and the company sure knows how to pick them.Look who they get to run the office.....

[Grove]

On a positive note.... It has been great to have some new blood join us from short haul... Cant say I was trilled about it initally, however many have added a more mature element to the a380, something we really did need..

[Pegasus747]

N_BW.

THere have been periods at Qantas where there have been no promotions for over 6 years. The lack of promotional opportunities at the moment are as a result of the planned 1000 crew recruitment for 2008-9 being canned as a result of the worlds worst financial crisis since the great depression.

Over the last year there have been in fact operational surpluses of nearly 300 crew that in other times would have resulted in mass redundancies. In 1991 over 650 crew were made redundant and some was compulsorily.

The Thai flight attendants who earned 12k per annum and who never had any chance of promotion and many who had given 10 years total commitment were terminated by the company to save the jobs of the QCCA crew in Australia.

Under the EBA the obligation of the COmpany would have been to maintain a 75/25 ratio of redundancy with the overseas crew meaning that about 100 QCCA would have been made redundant.

Whilst i completely understand the dissappointment at the lack of promotional opportunities it has to be seen within the above context. Over 3000 Qantas employees have been made redundant, SH crew have had massive cuts to their incomes as a result of changes to flying, MAM crew have had incredible changes to their fortunes and many Long Haul Crew have had 20% pay cuts by forced leave over the last 2 years.

Even if promotions were available at the moment A380 crew would be competing with mainline for them and existing CSM and CSS could still apply for the positions on merit against crew seeking promotion. Given that there are on 6 CSM and 6 CSS positions it would be extremely competitive to start with and no guarantee that any more than a handful would be successful in any case until more aircraft arise. I would hope that the majority would understand the situation and hold out for better times ahead

Everyone has suffered to some extent and i am sorry that you have had to leave Qantas in order to pursue career advancement. I hope wherever you have gone is in better shape than the airline industry at the moment. Qantas is still purchasing over 20 more A380 aircraft and over 160 new aircraft in total over the next 7 years or so. With that growth come massive recruitment again and promotions will flow.

Even so, there will be many crew who will not be successful in attaining promotion and that in itself will lead to bitter disappointment for some. You only need to see what the AIRC has handed down at the AWARD for flight attendants in this country to see what they think we are worth. The challenge moving forward will be no different to the challenges of the past

* doing everything possible to create employment security in Australia

* creating an environment and conditions conducive to recruitment on shore as opposed to off shore

* improving conditions for some and maintaining what's possible for others

Breaking news from the UK
British Airways to cut 1,700 jobs


British Airways has recently introduced charges for pre-booking seats
British Airways has announced that is to cut 1,700 jobs and introduce a two-year pay freeze for cabin crew as it looks to cut costs during the downturn.
It also announced that it would press ahead with plans to recruit new staff on different terms and conditions to current employees.
The airline is losing money and expects to make a big loss for the second consecutive year.
Global airlines are struggling with a fall in passenger numbers.
"Revenues are down, so we must reduce costs and restore profitability," BA said.
"Thousands of staff across the airline have already made contributions to the cost reduction programme."
The airline has been in negotiations with unions about the best way to cut staff costs.
This summer, it asked employees to volunteer to work for free for one month, to take unpaid leave or to work part-time.
It has also scrapped sandwiches on short-haul flights and is introducing charges on pre-booked seats.
In the year to the of March, BA made a loss of £401m - its biggest loss since the company was privatised in 1987.

[Exceptional]

N_BW,

Jeez mate calm down.. The goal posts have changed because the "economic crisis" screwed up a few short term plans that Qantas has.. We all have jobs here in OZ so lets be happy about that. The industry changes, the Ansett Set know all about that.
You appear to have a lot of anger towards QAL, and the FAAA so maybe its a good thing you have resigned.

[QFRegional]

So is it true that no more temp transfers for the 2 years over to long haul for short haul crew are going ahead?

[GalleyHag]

Further transfers actioned today for short haul onto A380.

[OCCR]

I havent spoken to many CSM's or any CSS's that want to go over
as you cant get a straight answer out of any of the OBM's over there, they all tell you its rosy but the body language states something else..
pegasus. the honest truth.... would you stay in mainline or go over???

[skybed]

All in all, thanks to the FAAA and company for salvaging jobs - things could be ever so worse...:ok:

times will change and opportunities will emerge...

[thecatinthehat]

Are there any updates yet as to the numbers required for CSM/CSS on the 380

[Shazz-zaam]

I'm not sure about the number of CSMs and CSSs they are looking for on the A380, but I can tell you they are after an extra 10 A380 crew after the sackings over the Noumea incident.

[standard unit]

Also a couple of Domestic csm's are up for A380 csm interviews - not that domestic is the issue just the people in question, I'd rather have Elmo as a CSM.


The conciliation being that if they do get up they'll fit in with the existing OBMs perfectly.

[dizzylizzy]

I agree rather have Elmo as a CSM... can imagine those Domestic CSM's doing that on an a380 *close the door close the door* brief the overwings! quick quick! *taps the watch repeatedly while crew scurry to close overhead lockers* it amusing enough watching them get used to the a330 again :rolleyes:

[whatever6719]

Touché !!! :D

[QF A330]

On a L/H flight seated in J class, you have your pre take off champers and then wait for no less than an hour whilst the crew are chatting and having a coffee before the next drink......................less gossip more service please.

On S/H flights the service starts around 10 mins after the seat belt sign is extinguished.

[dizzylizzy]

Don't think you've been on the 380....

[ozangel]

jeez! mustn't be an EBA up for renegotiation any time soon!? I'll bet your managers are noting your discontent with other work groups, only to use it against you next time around.

If a long haul crew struggle to do a service in 3hrs - it's because they mainly operate long haul sectors - and they're being put on those flights to industrially intimidate you short haul folk.

Likewise, if short haul crew are found lacking on longer flights (as they sometimes are), it's because they are trained to serve on shorter flights - it's again only used against you.

Pull your heads in! After a decade of 'divide and conquer' IR techniques - you'd think you'd all learn that both SH and LH can prosper together!?

*stares in amazement*

To quote my favourite line from Muriel's Wedding:

Wake up to yourself!

The FAAA can't fight for opposing interests.

Either start a new union - or learn to fight as one!

[GalleyHag]

The recruitment for A380 OBM's was for a "HOLD" list not for actual positions. Since recruitment opened, the company also opened up the opportunity for crew in Long Haul to transfer within category therefore that will effect the current recruitment program and rightly so if current OBM's wish to go the A380. There is only 1 aircraft arriving before the end of the year and the crew for that aircraft are being moved within category. A further 3 aircraft will arrive before March next year but this always changes as more aircraft were suppose to arrive before the end of this year and they have been delayed slightly. Some OBM's have or will be returning to long haul as their 2 years are up but that small number is apparentley being replaced with the transfer of exisiting QCCA OBM's.

So in short I dont think anyone really knows actual numbers as there are so many other factors which will influence the final numbers required. But as noted the current recruitment is for a hold list only.

[standard unit]

Avoid like the plague is now flavour of the month ????

[GalleyHag]

Charlie Fly Away

You seem to know what is happening with aircraft deliveries more than our CEO. These are his quotes from a press release on 14 Sept

"Six Qantas A380s are currently in service. A seventh aircraft will arrive later this year, with the fleet growing to 12 by mid-2011, and to 20 in 2015/16."

[fishers.ghost]

Do a google .The delivery dates of QF A380s(together with regos) are in the public domain