Ops career- questions

[JimmyGerrard]

Hi guys,

This is my first post so nice to meet you all. :)

I am currently privileged enough to have a position within the aviation industry in sales, and I'd like to move away from that and towards working in planning, aircraft management etc. I am struggling to find a definitive description of what an 'ops' role entails, so if any one could shed any light for me that would be great.

My current role has given me access to a variety of areas so in general terms my basis is pretty sound. I am therefore wondering what areas I should research, any good websites or resources, what books might be worth reading and what I should prepare myself to face...

I hear you are all a friendly bunch so I'd really appreciate any advice. :ok:

Thanks,

Jimmy

[Lauderdale]

Why don't you hobble around to my desk next week and I can tell you all about it......!

:ok:

[waco]

Hi Jimmy

Best of luck...........there are jobs in flight operations......not careers.

Cheers:ok:

[airchabum]

Hi Jimmy

In a nutshell, the role of Ops is to try and make what the Planning guys have planned actually happen on the day whilst trying to avoid any excess costs or disruption. A typical charter operation will on paper have a particular aircraft planned to do 3 return trips on a busy day, but if that aircraft has been delayed or taken out of service then Ops have to come up with ideas to get the programme back on track.

There are a multitude of events which can conspire to make sure Ops don't have a quiet day, eg:
Technical problems - if you have a spare at base it'll probably be a quick fix but if the a/c needs to go in the hangar or the only spare is in Kuala Lumpur then it could be grounded for days.
Air Traffic Control delays - some can be avoided but generally with an increased cost due to rerouting or flying at a less-economic flight level.
Crew hours limitations/sickness - if a crew on a long duty get a problem downroute then they go out of hours and the plane is stuck there until they are legal to fly again.
Weather - fog, snow, thunderstorms, etc can all cause delays/diversions.
Passengers - late pax to the a/c may mean having to offload bags causing you to miss your take-off slot and picking up a big delay which could then cause crew hours problems. Drunk/offensive pax can cause flights to be diverted en-route.
Airports - baggage belts break down, a/c get hit by ground equipment, handling agents can be short-staffed, especially if you arrive late.

If an airline has lots of spare aircraft and spare crew and lots of turnaround time between flights then Ops would be an easy job, but they never have so Ops have to make do with what they've got and try to minimise the disruption without spending a fortune on welfare, sub-charters, empty sectors, etc.

I hope that's given you an insight :)

Cheers
Alan

[Glen Air]

Whew!!! Well,I've always wanted to get into Ops and this has been a huge ambition of mine! Even though I obtained the qualifications for my core subjects,I've had no luck at getting into this field! Long story which i won't bore you with,as I posted this same kind of thread some time back!

I sometimes wonder if I was meant to get into ops,as I often think that"if things are meant to be",I would've been in the field a long time back!!

As you've described above,despite Ops being very stressful at times,is it at least a gratifying career or is it more liable to make me pull out my goatie hairs,as I haven't any left on my head!!

[Glen Air]

Whew!!! This is quite an involvement!!I've studied and qualified in my core subjects only!I've always wanted to make Flight Ops my career and have always had a huge ambition to fulfil this! Besides the usual "hectic"schedule, is Ops/Dispatch a gratifying career in the long run,or is it liable to have me pull out the hairs on my goatie,as I have none left on my head??:)

[Grasscarp]

It's gratifying but it usually doesnt have a progression ladder. You do the job and the next x number of years you keep doing it. I speak from experience. The better you are at it the less likely you are to be promoted or put doing anything different!

[airchabum]

You do get a sense of achievement when you do a good job and no two days are the same so it is gratifying but it isn't really a career. I've been in Ops off and on for 20 years and am now dispatching (for a lot less money) as there are no jobs around. I've been made redundant due to companies going bust 3 times and that's a lot less than some people I have worked with.

Depending on the size of the airline you can work up from Ops Assistant to Ops Controller to Duty Manager, but there isn't really anywhere to go after that unless you can get into the Commercial side.

Cheers
Alan

[no sig]

WACO/Grasscarp

I can't help but think you're being just a tad cynical about Ops related jobs and career progression. Ops is a excellent place to start a 'career' in aviation and many senior managers and directors of airlines I know started as ops officers. It is, as in all things, what you make of it. If you continue your aviation and/or management studies, garner as much knowledge as you can while in the job, it can give you a very marketable set of skills to move up from.

There is just one other thing I would add however; and that is you need to be prepared to move to where the work is.

[waco]

hi no sig........just being honest and practical.

[Grasscarp]

No sig, I was not being even slightly cynical. Have been in this field for over twenty years, but realised early on that there was no progression. Have worked for the very best employers and am now a trainer. Was trying to reasssure JimmyG that it is gratifying and interesting work, but anything you do after ops is up to you as there is no natural chain of progression. Know many people who have spent most of their working lives in ops.

[waco]

well put grass:D

[Glen Air]

Just out of curiosity,what part of Flight Ops involves the Flight Watch etc and does one need to have been a Flight Dispatcher before getting involved in the Ops side?(..if that makes sense!).I'm asking because this is the Flight Ops area I am really keen on!

[Grasscarp]

Not every airline has the same division of responsibilities. Depends on the size and complexity of their operations department. Often the dispatcher role includes monitoring the flight. Makes sense as they will be the ones to do any required reanalysis etc. You would be best to contact airlines that interest you and ask about vacancies and what they would require from you.

[Glen Air]

Thanks Grasscarp for the info! I don't mean to be negative,but I'm slowly getting to the point where I don't think this career is worth pursuing any longer,as I have spent so long (years to be quite frank!),trying to get into this field!! I have had to do random jobs which are totally non related to Aviation just to pay the bills and obviously in that time frame,pursuing every oppurtunity possible,but have been rebuffed everytime!! I have even got friends in the field already and they are not even able to help! Some years back,I chose to undertake an Ops/Dispatch Course which I funded myself and was more than optimistic that it would get me somewhere,but to no avail!! I'm not one for giving up and I've proved this more than anything, by making up a file of all the application letters, (and the rejections that followed!) and now i'm really starting to think maybe,it's not meant to be!! Some advice regarding direction would be gladly appreciated!!:ugh:

[waco]

Hi Glen
I love aviation, I always have. I have spent the last 25 years in airline ops rooms. I have spent times in quite senior positions and plenty of time at the other end. On the plus side I have travelled extensively however these days I only just make a living.
Life in the ops room is not a career, it is just a job. It will go pear shaped because airlines go bust, merge, disappear etc and you have to follow the work which means living out of a suitcase and being away from your love ones.
My advice ? Study hard and join the professions or get a job with excellent transferable skills, save up and get yourself a ppl. Then enjoy flying for a hobby.
Airline ops is great, I have jump-seated some fantastic aircraft, but that does not pay the bills nor provide a pension that you will be able to live on at retirement. I for one will never be able to retire, despite putting considerable funds into poor company schemes.
The very best of luck mate. Oh and just have a look at the other threads and notice the highly experienced ops guys looking for work.
And finally...........If you think its not looking good in the airline business at the moment wait until winter time........it is going to be carnidge.:ok:

[Grasscarp]

Your post is quite disturbing. You have obviously invested time and money in making yourself as good as you can be and still not found the job you are looking for. I went into an airline in a lowly role and moved into the area I wanted at the very bottom and worked up. It was very much worth it for me in the end. I dont know if this kind of thing is an option for you. Do you know anyone who can give you an introduction to an employer, as like every walk of life that is helpful. Unfortunately once jobs are advertised you are one of many applying and just sending a cv out randomly is also not very often any good. I got into this line of work when the wrong side of forty so dont give up!

[Glen Air]

Thanks guys for your friendly and helpful advice! I'll definitely bear some of your points in mind! Grasscarp,just to answer one of your points,I was told to approach some of the airlines and get in as a checking-in clerk,which yes,I have considered but the pay is not good at all (and I'm struggling on the wages I'm on now and that's not even with an Airline!).What worries me though,is how long would you be as a check in agent (or some other position) before you even get an open oppurtunity for an Ops vacancyand that's only for the interview?I'm not a "spring chicken"anymore,so i've got to consider my options for the future..and soon,if you know what I mean!

[Grasscarp]

I spent a year in the wilderness before getting into ops. It is impossible to say how long it would take you to get where you want to be, but we are only here once (I think) and if you can possibly manage on the lower wages I would do it. At one stage I did some extra evening work to survive. You dont want to be an OAP thinking I wish I had gone for what I really wanted to do!

[no sig]

Waco/Grasscarp

Ok lads, sorry- your posts came across a wee bit cynical at first read, but on a re-read I can see that it wasn't quite so.

[5552N0426W]

no sig

Getting a wee bit touchy in old age eh?

You sound as if you're taking on the role of Les and Pat.

;)

[no sig]

No D, I wouldn't want to do that. But maybe I'll go into Harris tweed suits and sit with my feet on the desk like ol Al W- much the easier life.

[desertopsguy]

Glen, just curious, what is it you studied and how long ago was it? How many of your job applications have resulted in interviews? If the answer is 'not many' then perhaps your CV needs some work.
You gotta be flexible sometimes to work in ops, the jobs aren't always where you might want them to be, ask anyone who's been in it a while. For those in possession of 'Brass ones', it can take you all over the world.

And it is a career but you need to have the smarts, determination and ambition to make it so. In every profession there are those who make it towards and sometimes all the way to the top and there are others who by bad luck(especially through choice of employer) or other reasons remain in the lower echelons.

Getting a foot in the door in an airline is a step in the right direction but it really is an open ended thing and when a job opens up in ops you can often be part of a very long queue to get it, especially in parts of the world where the job is still not licenced. You could be there for years.

Happy hunting.

D.O.G

[Glen Air]

Thanks for your thread desertopsguy! What you said makes sense and I know it can be a long line to wait in! Just to answer your question,my CV has had mostly replies of:"thanks for showing an interest in...,unfortunately there are no vacancies for this position" etc etc! One interview I managed to get, was with a major US airline based at LHR.I felt privileged to have been given "a shot" but the outcome was a resounding: "sorry,but we want to try keep this internal"! :ugh:

I am a determined soul and will carry on pursueing the "road of many hurdles"!!!

Thanks to you all for all your words of wisdom!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Jimmy

Being in Sales given the chance you'd sell your mother to earn some $$.
Ops would sort it out for you. 9 times out of 10 it would be a straight sell. When it goes wrong you call Ops.

The other key requirement is to make the Crewing Bods the tea, something that waco was preeeety hopeless at.

Mr A Singh Career Crewer :\

[waco]

still am mate.............hate tea..............:)

[747-436]

JimmyGerrard


Some of the posts here are correct about limited career progression within Ops, yes it is there but it is harder to come by than moving in to other areas of the Airline Business.

One thing you have to think about is that with Airlines going bust or merging and being bought up by others the number of Ops departments in the UK is decreasing. If an airline buys another one it generally doesn't need two Ops departments.
This has decreased the promotion opurtunites within Ops in the UK. It is a good role to do though and I certainly enjoyed it but for me it had a limited timescale. Although others are happy to stay in Ops for a long long time so it really depends on what you want out of it. My advice would be to do it for a few years as you already have sales experience which you can add to any Ops experience you will get. But be prepared to move around a bit within an airline if you can and add to that experience, which if you end up enjoying Ops you could then bring back to Ops management in later years.