Hughes/MD 500

[A check]

If you could afford your own helicopter what would you buy? What is the average cost of ownership, leaseback to operators, maintenance, etc ( turbines ) or would you just rent, on the old addage that if it flies, ***** or floats, rent it! ( I got married anyway ) What about depreciation, or do certain helicopters just stay at a certain price? How easy to resell?
What would you do? Anyone with real experience of private ownership?

[ATPMBA]

Helicopter ownership is an expensive proposition. This is not like owning a Piper Warrior where the purchase price is the main cost.

The helicopter purchase price is just one expense, if being financed you may have to put down 20% of the purchase price versus 5-10% for an airplane. You will need to hangar it as most helicopters are delicate machines and should not be exposed to the elements.

Insurance is a major cost, you also need hull insurance if the helicopter is financed. A B206 worth about 350,000 USD with liability and hull insurance would be in a range of 25,000 to 35,000 a year if it’s used for air taxi, total private flying may be a little less expensive. An operator’s base going rate for a B206 would be $600-700/hour. Some owners who lease back their helicopters get about $500/hour. With a DOC (direct operating cost) of $300/hour this leaves about $200/hour to pay the fixed costs

Your ongoing fixed expenses would include:

Monthly payment
Hanger fee
Insurance
Annual inspection and routine maintenance
The total fixed expenses could easily run $5,000-6,000 per month.

Most leasebacks are set up as a business, so if you incur a loss for the year you can offset it against your income taxes.

Purchasing an R44 can reduce most of the above numbers. Some insurance programs are set up that are tailored for R22’s & R44’s and are “reasonable.” I believe the R44’s DOC is about $150 hour.

Helicopters are easy to buy and hard to sell, unless you lower the price enough. I have seen helicopters listed for sale be on the market for 12-18 months.

Used helicopters do not really depreciate, their value is basically determined by the amount of life left in their life-limited components. The rule of thumb is 70% of a helicopter’s value is within those components.


Good Luck and let us know your thoughts.

P.S. All numbers above are in U.S. dollars. Rental rates must be higher in the U.K.
:)

[catseye]

On behalf of an associate,

does anyone manufacture a fire fighting belly tank for a hughes 500 or its derivative ( 530 etc ). No listing on the simplex web site although a photo is shown for a spray rig also not listed.

I thought NSCA in their heyday had some but can't find any details


the cat

[helmet fire]

I've yet to see a 500 with a fire fighting belly tank so I cannot help you there. Personally, I reckon that if you are under 1100 litres, it is of little benefit, and only begins to be really beneficial over the 2500 litre mark. IE everything less than a medium Bell (205/212/412) like B206, B407, AS350 (including B series but at a BIG stretch maybe not the B3), BK 117, A109, and H500 series, should avoid belly tanks as a waste of fuel burned for water dropped. Medium Bell range can show good use of belly tanks, but the larger machines are where they really shine (B214 and up to that great bit of kit on the erikson S64).

The bigger the machine, the harder it is to handle the bucket manually, the less of a factor the extra weight of the tank is in percentage terms, the more damage a dropped bucket would be in an urban environment, and the more likely the aircraft will be used in the critical urban fringe requiring overflight of built up areas.

So why would you put one on a H500? Or rather, what agency would actually request one?

[Autorotate]

South African Police have a Simplex tank that they use for spraying and was told that they also use it for fire fighting.

Ned

[chopperdr]

ned is correct, SAP do have a simplex spray system on their MD500E'S, was there last week with them training. personally have installed a number of tanks for simplex. they do not have a fire system for the 500 series. also agree with helmet fire the smallest machine that can effectively do tank work would be the AS-350B3, simplex has available a very good ( bugs worked out) system for that airframe. have many good jpegs of the systems, email me if you would like me to send a few
dr

[Spaced]

Im pretty excited, this weekend Im finally going to get a flight in a 500, probably the helo that got me into flying helos. As well as being my first flight in a 500, it will also be my first in a turbine.
Its a 500C, (369HS Kawasaki), with a C-18.
Ive been making my way through the POH, however some tips on flying the beast would be much appreciated.
So how about it 500 drivers, any advice for my first foray out of the 22.

[spinwing]

Wellll ... if its a 500C then its got a C20 or C20B engine ... they go like "stink" and the "C" can be driven to the edge of retreating blade stall in level flight ...great little sports car ... enjoy it

:) :) :) :)

[whatsarunway]

We had a 500 earlier this year with the c-18 engine , thing only burnt about seventeen gallons an hour and would sit at the 130kt vne all day

good heli , very stable , easy to fly but keep an eye on the auto's, once you hit the ground dont be tempted to pull back the stick as you will chop your tail off!

also watch out for landing on long grass especially on low skids or it will BBQ time,

fun heli

enjoy!

[SASless]

Lead with your thumb....trim the stick for big movements...move it for small small movements....and if you run out of top cyclic when making a tight turn near the ground....stomp that uphill pedal....while reducing your collective pull a bit.....might save your bacon!:ok:

[catseye]

Spaced,

are you doing a conversion or just going for a jolly. Didn't know of anyone doing training on 500's as there are not many around for low hours pilots etc.

Is it really a C18 powered machine ??


Aaah the old VH-BAD Mk 2.

Great machine for low level recce and far better than a deathranger when it has the aux tank.

The eye

[spinwing]

Arrrr what a giveaway .......

VH- BAG wasn't a bad (excuse the pun!) ship either .... nor was VH- PMY ........

:) :) :) :) :ok: (Does that date me or WHAT!)

[that chinese fella]

Interested in why the 500 would be your first choice of a turbine endorsement, unless of course you have a specific need.

Enjoy the shake rattle and roll of the 500, let all the pilots tell you what great fun it is to fly and let all the engineers tell you what a dog of a thing to work on. After all that hop into the old 206 and realise why they are more versatile and less fatiguing.

As far as advice, make sure you spend a good deal of time inspecting the rotor head and are familiar with the damage limitations on the strap pack.

[Dynamic Component]

Spaced,
Would this specific one have a blue eagle painted on the side?:D

[Spaced]

Firstly thanx for the relplies.

spinwing
Im sure that its a C, its 4 bladed main, 2 bladed tail, and its a C-18. Dont know if it makes any difference but its a Kawasaki manufactured machine.

whatsarunway
Shes low skid so Ill definately keep that in mind.

SASless
I get what your saying, but does that include transitionin, lead with the thumb?

catseye
A little of both. Im probably a little low time to do the endorsment now, but would definately be my choice to do it in. I know that flying the 500 will ruin me, and it will be all I want to fly. It will sure be tough squeezing back into the 22.
:ok:

that chinese fella
Like I said in my original post, the 500 is probably the helo that really got me interested in helos. The shape, the noise of the rotor, I just love them. I had resigned my self to doing my endorsement on the 206, as I had only ever seen one at our airport, and even that didnt stay long. When this one showed up, and I could take a flight in it I couldnt hold back.

For me this is a treat, with the exception of a blat in an Apachie or Cobra, I cant think of another helo I would really go out of my way to atleast fly once. My flying career is only just begining, and while I know intelectually that the 206 may be a better initial choice, in Aus anyway, love is blind, so the 500 wins!

Dynamic Component
No she doesnt, however she has been to WA.

[fatter bloke]

Mate,
If you dont have a job flying the 500 after the endorsement and you are a low time pilot (less than 400 TT in my opinion) Dont waste your money. If you are just wanting to fly it for a bit of fun then Go for it. I 'm sure you'll have a great time.

If someone is trying to sell you an endorsement on it with the line that you might get a job with low hours on one then dont believe them but I am sure you know that already, This is just friendly advice. I recently bumped into a bloke who spent 8K on a turbine endorsement because he was told he might need one, He had 107 hours when he got the endorsement and has got NO chance of getting a job flying one. The 8K would have been better spent on a 44 with ten hours P1 to consolidate the endorsement. This is just my opinion after spending a few years in the industry, I am be no means an expert and hope I am proven wrong .

Good luck with your Jolly in the Hughes!!

[pohm1]

Hhhhmmmm,

Kwakka 500C, low skids, C18 in Australia.

Not VH-KFZ is it?


Go for a R44 or B206 endorsement, there's a much better chance of the investment paying off.

[the wizard of auz]

Is it a shiney black one or a fire engine red one?

[Rich Lee]

After all that hop into the old 206 and realise why they are more versatile and less fatiguing. "The slave that thinks he is free is the best slave."

The OH-6A got me started in helicopters so I understand what you are feeling. Enjoy your flight in the 500! There are those of us who still fly for the love of flying and not because the proper endorsement will lead to a position of great wealth and high esteem. Fly whatever you want whenever you can and don't listen to the girly-men about their iron lung like B-206A's with boosted controls and slug like performance.

[pohm1]

Rich Lee, looking at Spaced posts, it would appear that he may be a student looking to make his mark on an already crowded industry. I would suggest that those with low hours get an endorsement on a type that is commonly used in the low hour areas of employment, usually tourism, ie R44, or B206. In Australia I don't know of any 500's used in such ops.

I'm with fatter bloke, your money could be better spent, although the 500 is great to fly.

[Dynamic Component]

pohm1,

If you're from SE Qld? then you should know of a aircraft of that exact description doing exactly that:}

Ooh man-I almost confused myself there:8

[bellsux]

At least if it is the same one it should have a lovely new set of blades on it... Oh what a feeling!!! ;)

[pohm1]

DC

Its a new one on me, where is it?

[Spaced]

A bit of clarification here.
The company in no way pushed me in to this, it was completely my idea.
Im still at the stage where I fly for the love of it, and look forward to a career in it. Would the money be better spent on a 44 or 206? Almost certainly, however its not like I have the prospect of making the money I do now when I start my commercial flying career.
I know that Im not the only one, but I have really given up alot to pursue a career as a helo pilot. Lots of work, no holidays, staying home alot, so its also a bit of a reward to keep me going.
I think the biggest decider for me was that I wasnt even sure that I would ever get to fly a 500, so when the opportunity arose there was no way I was going to let it go.
Thanx for the replies.

[John Abersynth]

Mate. You have chosen well. There are few helicopters as fun, and as affordable as the 500 to get endorsed on. Of course there will be knockers, but most will be the "green man" syndrome. I'm sure you may even get to x-hire this a/c albeit maybe icus, but go on, have a great time in it. I love them.

JA

[Dynamic Component]

pohm1,
If my memory serves me corectly its somewhere in Brisbane.
I think it may be from Archerfield?:}

[that chinese fella]

Spaced,

Enjoy the 500, as I (and others) referred to, they are good fun to fly. Sounds like you are in a fortunate (read no-doubt well-earned) position to follow a passion. Good luck to you.

Afterwards you could also grow a cheesy 70's Pornstar 'tash and pretend your Magnum PI..............

Jokes aside, good luck with the endorsement!

TCF

[SASless]

Spaced..

The Thumb rules...in all phases of flight....if you are going to move the stick....lead with the trim button...as the stick force disappears...stop beeping the cyclic trim. When making small..small cyclic movements...no need to trim...but if small movement for a longish term...trim the force away.

[Captain Lai Hai]

Check with your instructor first before leading with the thumb button when trimming cyclic forces

Leading with the thumb is the exact opposite to what I was taught as it burns out trim motors due to the much higher workload they are subject too in overcoming the cyclic forces.

I think you will be shown to position the cylic first then trim out.
After a short period of time you'll be doing it without thinking about it.

Call the Aeropower boys they have around eight 500's I think and they would be more than happy to yarn with you about it

Fly safe

[catseye]

been flying yet? What were your impressions.

The cat

[Spaced]

I got tied up with my work over the weekend and had to put it off.
:{
Looks like the same for this weekend, but the weekend after Im determine to get up.

[Werti]

Hello all you out there.

Does anyone here know what is the operating cost of hughes 500?

[rotornut]

Try Helmut at the URL below:

http://www.aogheliservices.com/

[Hughes500]

Tricky one really, depends upon what you are using one for and where in the world it is.

I have owned / run them for over 10 years, tend to be very reliable, but here is a quick run down for a UK based one.

Insurance £ 9000 to £ 14000 on £ 250k hull value with betterment and xs bought out ( £14 k is for any puropose )

Annual inspection £ 2500 plus retification

100 hour / 6 month inspection £ 600 to £ 1200 depending if compressor needs inspecting.

Fuel 25 imp gallons / hour

Component costs are what they are - use MD's component reserve figure, suggest you add a bit as things do not always last, espically if the machine flies as a private one. Eg blades leading edge erosion strips.

Worst ever year running one £ 32k on 250 hours, but this included 2 new main rotor blades and FCU. But insurance at the time was £ 6500 and fuel was .15p per litre !!!!!!!!!!

You will not have more fun in any other type of helicopter. Given the option buy a low skidded D model, the best of the type.

[Werti]

thank you!

This helps.:ok:

[SASless]

Stolen Post from another less professional website....

I don't have my manuals at home. A new pilot called me that was flying an OH-6 (MD-500C) at 10,000 feet MSL and had a bad MR vibration at cruise speed of 100 kts. slowed down to 85 kts and it went away. It does not do it at 3000 feet. I told him I thought it was retreating Blade Stall. Anybody else?

My response was the aircraft was exceeding Vne and thus could have been approaching Retreating Blade Stall, some responses had to do with compressibility problems.

The aircraft in question was clean, light, and had a 20R engine vice the -18 that the type normally had. The OAT had to be very cold....event happened a few days ago.

Any ideas?:confused:

[nmai123456789]

10000 msl
oat very low
the two combined could have caused ice on the top or the bottom of the blade causing the angle of attack to grow thus causig a temparary less than normal vne, but im only a student but that sounds like the thing
and i fly an oh6 to and its not a 500 c its a h369 just to be correct. :D

[SASless]

you are dealing with Yanks my boy....an Easter Egg with a hard-on....with V tail is a C model 500....if it originally came with an olive green paint job and military radios it was an OH-6 or Loach.

But you are correct....in one way....the type certificate for the C model shows 369....the OH-6A...which this one is....being on an Experimental certificate is an OH-6A. This OH-6A you fly....which engine does it have installed?

Please explain how ice can form in clear air and very cold temperatures....no rain, snow, sleet, condensation nuclei present.

[HeliMark]

Don't have a "C" model book, but the "D" has a Vne of 94kts at 10K and -10c at a weight above 2500 lbs.

[SASless]

Helimark...

The C model would certainly be well below that number....thanks.

[Shawn Coyle]

Since the Vne placard is on the center pillar, it should be pretty evident that what the Vne is for any particular condition.
If that's not enough to convince you that you've exceeded it, the control forces get pretty heavy when you get to retreating blade stall - the collective wants to go down and the stick starts to vibrate pretty well.
Or doesn't anyone look at placards???

[SASless]

Shawn,

Despite the placard...a ferry flight on a 206B in Iran one Christmas Day years ago....had the collective up under my arm...at 10,000 feet....going as fast as the ol' girl would....not a tremble, shake, or rattle....no feedback....just smooth sailing....was in a hurry because I did not wish to miss my Christmas pudding with related Turkey bits. Days later, got to thinking about it and relalized what a naughty boy I had been. Shows what placards are all about.

[Flingingwings]

Guys/Gals,

I'm trying to locate a UK school that can provide me with Type rating training on a Hughes 500.

I've tried Google etc and many schools advertise 500 training but when you call the aircraft is no longer there/ website is out of date.

Anybody know where I can actually find one?

Cheers

FW

[Whirlybird]

I may be out of date, but there certainly used to be one at Heliflight at Wolverhampton, 01384 221215.

[leemind]

If you are in the South East, try Biggin Hill Helicopters. ( 0870 443 0555 or www.bhh.co.uk )

They have a very nice black 500E and soon to have a 500D just out of re-furb. Both available for training or SFH, though no hogging it, or I'll have nothing to fly :p

[DanRS]

HeliFlight do have a type rated instructor at either Gloucester or Wolverhampton, and I'm sure they can source an aircraft

[Flingingwings]

Cheers folks.

Had already spoken to Jamie.
Just waiting for those suggested to come back with some prices.

Many thanks

FW

[heli_spy]

Hi

I can thoroughly recommend Biggin Hill Helicopters for 500 training. I did my type rating there in August (in a 500E) and you will not find better instructors anywhere.

Give them a ring and ask for Bill or Simon.

Enjoy!

heli_spy

[CyclicWaggle]

Dunno if it's in your area or not but Fast Helicopters at Shoreham airport can do H500 training. Phone 0800 0748339

[Glacier]

Does anyone have Excel weight & balance program for H500D converted to metric

[paco]

No but if you let me have the details I could convert one of those on my site

I need all the arms and the CG envelope. Will it be used on a PDA? (the graphs won't work)

Phil

[Werti]

Anyone got any idea about how much it costs to overhaul a mainrotor hub for hughes 500e, and recommend a place to do it around Boston, MA.

[diethelm]

Parts, what parts.

I have a mainrotor hub out for repair on my F. PM me and I will give you some names for an overhaul or exchange.

[Ed Thrust IV]

I am having problems locating two Hughes 500D rotor masts. They seem to be in very short supply at the moment. Part No. (369D22014-501) Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[GroundGirl]

Check your PM's SOrry if you have already tried this!

[diethelm]

Call Darin Cannon at Phoenix Heliparts. Mesa, Arizona 480-654-4930.

[Rotor1]

Has any one ever heard of a tail rotor drive shaft failure in a MD500E.

Ours broke and we had to autorotate to the ground with a run on landing at the bottom. as we exited the helicopter, the main rotor was winding down and the four bladed tail rotor was stationary.
It sheared completely about 20 inches from the tail rotor gearbox.

any thoughts or ideas, as this has stumpted our engineers

Cheers Rotor1

[tusker]

Gday Bruce,
The D and E models fling their shafts for two reasons I know of. Firstly, if it is just after maintenance it is because during the balancing the recommended Rpm was exceeded before the recommended Ips were in place. ie You have too high a Rpm with too high vibration . Look in the maintenance manual and you will see the limitations. Secondly, there is a guy in Canada? who sells a copy of the real T/R driveshaft hanger bearing, that big black hanger, and it is not on speck and not of the correct material. We lost two shafts because of this sub standard part. Go buy one from MD and the problem goes away. Enjoy your 500, they are magic machines.

[Thomas coupling]

Rotor 1: thats a very casual and cool comment you made after experiencing possibly a pilots worse nightmare.

Could you elaborate so that we can understand something of what it was like???

Many thanks.

TC

[Quick Release]

selfish.

witty reply, and so true.

Favourite machine is the 500 (i know, i need my head read ) so will follow this thread and hope to find answers, i have always heard about this problem so im all ears.

[bladebanger]

There is an AD that needs to be done on the T/R gearbox stud inserts. I hope this is not the cause as it's an old problem.
Not a nice one but a job well done for getting it down.

Banger

[Flying Foxy]

I'm ready to be corrected, but isn't loss of T/R not 'too' much trouble if you can auto straight away since the principle of autorotation removes the need for an anti-torque thrust as the M/R is being 'driven' by upflowing air? Swinging into wind presumably can only be done by cyclic in this case..

FF

[Lu Zuckerman]

The Bendix designed shaft is used on H-500 series as well as the Apache and the Agusta 129. Each of these shafts has a nodal point about which the shaft will whip. At each nodal point the manufacturer installs a stainless ring circling the shaft. This ring rides inside of a damper assembly, which is also installed at the nodal point. If the shaft for any reason starts to whip about its’ rotational axis the stainless ring will contact the inside of the damper causing it to displace. The displacement provides a damping effect canceling out the shaft displacement. The damper is installed between two plates and is restrained in position by springs that are preloaded to a specific setting thus providing friction and restraining damper movement. If the springs are set too loose the shaft will be unrestrained and will whip resulting in fatigue of the shaft and or the Bendix couplings. If the friction is set too tight the shaft will be unable to whip and will be exposed to high stress levels.

At least that’s what I remember from about twenty years ago.


:E :E

[Rotor1]

Tusker
As far as I know we have a proper MD hanger bearing instaled.

Blade banger
all current and past AD's are up to date on this machine and it has the 10300 hour tail boom

Mr Selfish
The bill will be a night mare but all bills for helicopters are

Thomas

Cruising at 1000 feet and between 80-90 knots, when a massive cracking rumbling noise was heard by all in the 500, the pedals froze instantly so we realised it was something in the tail rotor, we maintained our speed and entered autorotation.

we noticed we had only one viable place to go, along a road over the other side of the river. as we got closer we noticed many powerlines crossing right were we wanted to go and some large overhanging gum trees, so we changed heading and went for a large backyard of some house. all the time we kept our speed up around the 70 knot mark, if we slowed down we started to yaw. at the last second we had to pull pitch to slide in between some very large trees. on landing we ran on for as long as we could to stop the tailboom being cut off. it was a fast run on but very soft on the 500 and us.

The whole time as the engine was idling we could here the tailshaft banging around. the tail rotor push pull tube was bent at the moment of shear, that explaines the locked pedals.
Our engineer estimates that ten to twenty more seconds off flight the tail boom would have failed and the t tail and all the rest would have fallen off. not a nice thought.

what intriges us is that is sheared in a stabilized cruise not under load in a hover for example

any more thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Rotor1

:confused:

[tusker]

Hi Rotor 1,
Then I would seriously look at the last TR balancing procedure because when you fit the new bits you could be following the incorrect procedure again and your autorotation proficiency will be tested again.
Cheers
Tusker

[ConwayB]

Rotor 1,

Great effort on your auto!

As a Chinook pilot, it's been a long time since tail rotor malfunctions have been a major concern. (Our major concern is having a mid-air collision with ourselves!) From all reports, the 500 is a great machine to fly and not withstanding the failure, she sounds like she got you out of trouble okay.

Reading your description of the event, I have to say I'm impressed with your aviating. As a CRM facilitator, I'd love a chance to talk to you about it so I can use it as a teaching/learning point for single pilot operations. PM me if you wouldn't mind letting me pick your brains, or email me at [email protected]

Well done and I hope your future flights are less eventful and more enjoyable.

Cheers
Conway B

[Thomas coupling]

Rotor 1: when you pulled pitch at the bottom, was your engine still on line or had you throttled it back to GI?

If the latter, did she yaw a little or considerably in the direction of rotation?

Ta.

Good work by the way!

Take a weeks leave!

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Congrats Rotor 1 on the safe landing. It never fails to fascinate me to read and learn from these hot off the press tales on pprune - they demonstrate the skill and bravery of professional heli pilots around the world. Let's hope you never get to write another !!


TFS

[jbrereton]

Well done on walking away from this one.


Flying Foxy

Quote
"I'm ready to be corrected, but isn't loss of T/R not 'too' much trouble if you can auto straight away, etc."

Lets hope you never have to find out. You only get one shot at it. The bit at the bottom, if you survive that long, will be the exciting part.

Once again well done.

Jon

[Rotor1]

Thomas

We left the engine at flight power, but once we were asured of landing we shut it back to GI and ran on, due to the speed we maintained there was only a little bit of controlable yaw during the pitch pull sequence

Rotor1

[imabell]

how about a photo of the shaft or the landing site.

[SASless]

Congratulations on the successful recovery of a bad situation! So glad it was you....and not me. Have you tried to replicate the pedal settings, airspeed and power setting....and played about a bit to see how slow you could get before it all goes blurred?

The question I have....and the answer would be most educational...how was it you arrived at the decision to take the course of action you did? Sounds like it was a pretty exciting time for a while and thus you had to make some pretty darned serious decisions quickly.....an account of what the thought process was would make for interesting reading.

I know from experience when you have caste iron failures in these things....there is not a lot of time to go read a manual. Tail rotor failures are one of those things we spend not enough time talking about or practicing....and those failures require some pretty sharp thinking to get the aircraft down in a re-usable condition.

Well done!:ok:

[imabell]

a few pictures of the offending shaft ,

on request from r1,

http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au/pprune/htr.jpg

http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au/pprune/htr2.jpg

http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au/pprune/htr3.jpg

:uhoh:

[Rotor1]

Thanks imabell for puting the photos up for me.

Is this similar to any other MD500 failures that any one has seen.

Any more information would again be apreciated.

SASless.
Our thought process was when it happend we did not start yawing so we just kept our speed as is. not very technical, but it worked for us. Slowing down was not a good option to us.

Cheers rotor1

[helibiz]

Does any one know if Howard Hughes himself had anything to do with H500 series or had he gone completely mad by that time?
Thanks in advance

[md 600 driver]

he must have known he was going mad to have had anything to do with helicopters

[George Semel]

Well he owned the Company. He was very aggressive in getting contracts for his Aircraft and electronics. He had a hand in a lot of things. One of the interesting ones is Direct TV. That comes out of Huges Aircraft Sat division. Most of his companies are still around in one form or another. The 500 started out as the Light Scout Helicotper the Army was looking for , Bell came up with what will become the Bell 206, Hiller the FH-1100. The Army ended up with what became the 206 and the 500. Like a lot of things there were a lot of politics going on. LBJ had a huge stake in Bell helicopter at the time. The Army liked the OH-6, they still have them and are buying more of them. Bell improved the 206 and the latest vision is the OH-58D. Howard Huges was a very great man who saw the future better than anyone of his generation. A lot of things we take for granted today is because of some of the far reaching inovations he was able to put to pratical use. You can get 140 channels on Direct TV or around 29 dollars a month, and for a little more you can get 500 channels. Also Internet and phone and a bunch of other things. The casino's in Vegas are gone, along with Huges Air West and TWA. Air West morphed into South West Airlines. Its to bad that the Helicopter division is having troubles, but then again, so is bell and well Hiller is about gone.

[Project Pilot FH1100]

Thirty-six hundred helicopters. 3,600. That's how many LOH helicopters the U.S. Army said it was going to buy. That's an incredible procurement that would make any manufacturer's mouth water. Nowadays, such a high number is just unthinkable.

The story of Howard Hughes' involvement with the little egg that used to bear his name is a fascinating one. Yes, he did have direct involvement with its development, something he probably came to regret. However, one cannot fault his determination.

Because of certain, um, "circumstances," Howard was banned from any involvement at all with the Hughes Aircraft Company. Instead, he turned his attention to the Hughes Tool Company as a way of returning to aviation through the back door. Through the mid-1950s HTC had been doing market research and figured there was a place for a small, two-seat trainer helicopter. In 1955 design work began on what would become the model 269.

Somewhere in our archives we have the actual earliest files relating to the U.S. Army's LOH competition that was announced in 1960. But it's fair to say that knowledge of the competition existed well prior to that- surely back into the late 1950s.

The LOH purchase was going to be big: 3600 aircraft. You can bet that competition for the contract was going to be fierce. Bell figured they could win it with their OH-4. After all, they were already pumping out UH-1's, so gearing up and adding the OH-4 would've been no sweat. Hiller figured they could win it with the OH-5. After all, the U.S. Army had been using Hiller helicopters since forever, and there was a well-established working relationship with the power-that-be.

But Howard Hughes wanted that contract and he wanted it badly. Whether he had any direct involvement in the design of the LOH is doubtful. But it wasn't that "his" OH-6/369 design was any better. (That point is arguable in any event. The Bell and Hiller designs met the contract specs while the OH-6 needed over thirty waivers to be considered.) Howard looked at the contract as vindication. He would finally be considered a successful provider of military aircraft, a long-time goal of his. Perfectly understandable, if you ask me.

What is now also perfectly understandable in retrospect is the lengths to which Howard went to win the contract. Let's not be naive: he pulled out all the stops, using whatever means were necessary. We know fairly reliably that Howard was able to get Hiller's costs (and probably Bell's too) for production. He simply undercut them, whether it meant making a profit or not. He offered the OH-6 airframe to the military (who would supply the engine, remember) at a ridiculous, shockingly low price. The military took the offer and ordered 714 OH-6's (88 in 1965, 168 in 1966 and 458 in 1967). But Howard couldn't produce them fast enough. By January 1967 only 21 OH-6's had been delivered and the poop really hit the fan.

HTC was operating at a loss, and we know that Howard was not happy at all about it. Neither was the Army. The Director of Army Aviation wanted Rea Hopper, Vice President and General manager of the Aviation Division of HTC "removed for incompetence." The beleaguered Hopper had to go a couple of times to Howard for more money, and to get money-losing budgets approved- budgets that his own Board of Directors had rejected. We know that Howard supplied it, begrudgingly, out of his own personal funds. But he wanted that contract. Rumor has it that he spent roughly $90 million of his own money to get it.

It's not that simple, of course. It never is. There is much more to it, and it makes a wonderful story. In the end, the Army got the OH-6 (a terrific LOH by any measure) and the OH-58 (in some people's opinions an LTE accident looking for a place to happen when used in the LOH role). Ironically enough, both Bell and MD Helicopters found themselves competing again for the U.S. Army "Little Bird" competition. Ah, how history repeats!

[Graviman]

Interesting read, Project Pilot FH1100. I like learing about heli history...

Mart

[Ian Corrigible]

I read in one of the FBO rags that MDHI is planning to end production of the MD500E & MD530F, with only the NOTAR-equipped MD520N & MD600N being retained.

End of an era if true. Sorry to see the MD530F go.

:(

I/C

[EMS R22]

That would be sad. They are are great machine.

[rotorrookie]

:{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{

[Ian Corrigible]

An informed source tells me that rumors of the Loach's demise have been greatly exaggerated, and that the MD500 and MD530F survive.

Reading the rag (this month's AIN) again, the claim was actually made by MDHI's new owner. Given the rather tasty full length leather body suit she was wearing at Helitech, it may have been a simple case of restricted blood flow to the brain...

:E

I/C

[diethelm]

It is unlikely that MD would discontinue all but the N model of the 369 series. It is likely based upon Kaman's recent SEC filings that a deal with MD was close to being finalized which is a major stumbling block to a restart of production.

Given the loss of the ARH contract and the competition related to the LUH contract, in the event the LUH contract does not go to MD, Patriarch's investment is contingent upon a component overhaul/service business and sales of as many new models as necessary. To limit themselves to N models of the 369 would be unduly constraining.

Boeing owns the ability to sell the 369 series for military purposes which limits the market for new product placement of this aircraft to commercial.

Patriarch spent a lot of money and management has continued to be evasive with respect to an actual date that parts, components and support will improve. My bet is that things will continue to improve but that they are spending a considerable amount of resources on the LUH contract.

Even though the statistical probablility of winning LUH is not very high, in the event they win the contract, the resources necessary to improve support and service for the 369 series will continue to be limited. If you operate 900 series aircraft, hope for a LUH win as that will result in substantial product improvement. In the event you operate 369 series aircraft, hope they lose so you can become the most important customer to their business.

[lead zeppelin]

Does anyone know why the Hughes 369 is also the Hughes 500 / MD 500?

[HeliEng]

Lead,

I think you will find, and I am sure MD600driver will be able to clarify, it is only a Hughes 369 and an MD 500.

A change of ownership thing I think, bit like the aerospatiale/eurocopter thing.

[Ian Corrigible]

It’s a combination of change of ownership and grandfathering rights on the FAA Type Certificate. The list includes:

FAA designation & MDHI sales designation
369A = OH-6A
369HE = MD500
369HS = MD500C
369HM = MD500M
369D = MD500D
369MD = MD500MD
369E = MD500E
369FF = MD530F

FAA designation & Schweizer sales designation
269C = Schweizer 300C
269C-1 = Schweizer 300CB
269D = Schweizer 330/330

Schweizer also uses the Model 379 designation for the Fire Scout UAV.

I/C

[ppheli]

I'd take a slightly different line than that. The 269/369 names were the internal model numbers which appeared on the certification paperwork and thus is the type description which appears on the FAA/CAA/etc registers. However, these numbers were considered "not good enough" by the marketing department at Culver City (at the time, prior to Mesa) and hence the 300 and 500 names appeared on all the brochures and the sides of the aircraft as being more "marketing focussed"

Similar problems exist with the likes of the "MD902" not being a name that MDHI would like heard because it's different from the (FAA certified) MD900 and "MD902" would thus need a new certificate in the FAA's eyes (ie loadsa money etc etc). Thus they should be referred to as "MD Explorer" only, even if we all know what "MD902" really refers to.

IanC, nit picking, perhaps, but MDHC (and later MDHI but not MDHS) never marketed any of these things prior to the 369E/500E and thus all the earlier models (and the 269A, 269B which you rightly omitted from the second list) were always "Hughes" 500 or 300 and never MD500s. Some early 500Es were Hughes aircraft, but the majority have been MD500Es. The NOTAR lines have always carried MD names like MD520, MD600 etc as the only (albeit significant in technical terms) involvement Hughes had were the prototypes and MD owned the outfit by the time marketing of those lines started.

Now, is a Lama
- Sud Aviation SA315B Lama (hence the SA part of the title), or
- Aerospatiale SA315B Lama (eg. one built after Sud Aviation merged into Aerospatiale), or
- Eurocopter SA315B Lama (eg. an older SE313B Sud-Est Alouette II converted in the last 10 years) ??

And is an EC130 really an AS350B4?

And an EC145 really a BK117C2?

pp

[HeliEng]

PPheli,

I would agree with the BK117/EC145 statement. I have seen one with EC145 painted on the outide, but BK117 engraved on the data plate!

Isn't an AS350B4 a EC120?

[bellsux]

During the design it was noted that there was 369 reasons not to own one , fly one or maintain one but when it came out there was over 500 and still counting so they left it at that.

[800]

I think a AS350B4 is an EC130 (B4)

[Lunar]

I think the EC120 is the 206B4!!!!

Lunar.

[Hughes500]

Bellsux

Why would you not want to fly one ? Probably the most responsive heli made and certainly the most crash survivable !

[Fun Police]

good thing too as the blades keep coming apart :sad:

[Choppersquad]

guys

can you tell me the following

what is the fuel burn per hour on a 600.
what is the running cost per hour extra over a jetranger
how fast a they full fuel full pax.
what would i expect to pay for a 8 year old machine ok spec.
why is there very few around in the uk.
are parts easy to get .

any of the above questions answered would be great.

thanks
choppersquad.

[Ian Corrigible]

what is the running cost per hour extra over a jetranger
C&D gives $505/hr vs. $385/hr

I/C

[rotorboy]

There was a bad 600 accident last month in Canada. Rumor ( this is a rumor network) and accounts from witnesses indicate mid flight break up. Tail boom was found seperated intact away from airframe. Pilot did not survive.


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060404X00392&key=1

word is AWD maybe in the pipeline.

rb

[flyheli]

also would be very interested in how much you can lift with a D/E/F model???

[on21]

For information, thats if anyone is looking for one!:ok:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MD-Helicopters-MD-500E_W0QQitemZ4631214325QQcategoryZ32635QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[206 jock]

I saw that 500 on eBay - funny the bloke is also selling a JetRanger - and both machines have been for sale (at higher prices) through brokers in the UK.

An opportunity for a bargain, or another eBay scam? I came the conclusion it's probably the latter, if only because the descriptions are very similar to those on the broker websites!

[Hughes500]

The machine belongs to Derek Mcgarity, according to one of my sources he blows hot and cold on selling it !

[rotorboy]

IMO a D will out lift an E. They are lighter, and I personally dont like the panel on the the E, takes up too much room/visibility and I think the instruments are positioned better on the D.

Dont know what an F will lift, though have heard that the transmission becomes the limiting factor.

at sea level a D will lift 1000+ pounds with wind on its nose and cool temps. I have picked a 1300 pound drill piece , with the thing stripped, and MINIMAL fuel. You are not going far with that kind of weight.

For less than 3000> msl and cool temps , you cant beat the angry egg. For anything above that, the need to move loads far, or hot temps go As350B2/SA315.
RB

[flyheli]

guys
can you tell me the following
what is the fuel burn per hour on a 600.
?

why is there very few around in the uk.
are parts easy to get .
any of the above questions answered would be great.
thanks
choppersquad.

what is the running cost per hour extra over a jetranger
210-254 for mx/hour

how fast a they full fuel full pax.
around 125kts

what would i expect to pay for a 8 year old machine ok spec.
high time 620-720, mid time760-910 low time 1-1.1 mio (blue book)

[flyheli]

How many passengers really fit in a 500 in regular configuration excl. pilot???

[BigMike]

Well I did once have 8 plus pilot in a C model...;)

[pohm1]

BM,

Did it smell nice afterwards?:yuk:

[rotorboy]

4 people Pilot + 2 up front and two in the back.


Doing tours in the thing is horrible, fat and old people cant get in and out of it. "Its ok granny, just jump on me ill catch you"
rb

[Fun Police]

3 up front in a 500 series helicopters is extemely uncomfortable and arguably unsafe as it is too tight to allow for freedom of movement of the cyclic because your arm gets wedged up against the middle passenger. the only way around this is to contort your wrist so your hand is almost in front of the cyclic (very uncomfortable and also arguably unsafe) or only allow kate moss sized pax in the middle seat. the choice is yours:hmm: .
3 pax total is the only way to go, especially during colder seasons as heavier coats make a huge difference in such a small space.

[Hughes500]

I like the squeeze in the front, mind you only attractive women are allowed in the front ! As for touring it may be small but beats the pants off a 206 into a 30kt wind - you are still going faster than the motorway traffic !

[407TX]

Does anybody have any good pictures of Hughes/MD 500's in flight?:ok:

[Aesir]

http://www.helikopterpilot.dk/uploads/Helidoctor/H500_4.jpg

http://www.helikopterpilot.dk/uploads/Helidoctor/H500_3.jpg

These are for sale by the way.

I´ll add the link http://forsvaret.dk/FMK/eng/Sale+of+Helicopters/here. Maybe not allowed but I am in no way affiliated with the seller! just for your information.

[22clipper]

Saw my first Hughes 500 photo in the late 60s as a teenager, love at first sight. Anybody know where I could get an endorsement on one in Australia?

[willybear]

I think Aeropower use them near Brisbane, you could try there.

Will

[Nigel Osborn]

Interesting machine the 500. The 500M, the military version, is flown from the right hand seat whereas the civil version is flown from the left. Because of this, in Ireland my boss who only had a right eye, lost the left one in the Isle of Man TT, managed to get the 500M on the Irish civil register as he could only fly in the right seat. He was allowed to fly provided he had a pilot in the left seat to monitor the Ts & Ps!!

[MPR]

I quite like this one.... it is my shot, but I still like it!
http://www.pbase.com/mikerice/image/60301579.jpg


or try Airliners.net & get some more....


http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0868953/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0885007/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0990985/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1009954/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1034797/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0929778/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0851550/M/

[Practice Auto 3,2,1]

Nice pic of G-ORRR there. Dont think you'll get to photograph it in flight any more though :

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225247

:ouch:

[rotor67]

I'm looking for a pdf of the start up and shutdown procedures for a 500D.
Thanks in advance-
Rob

[mfriskel]

www.mdhelicopters.com go to the publications icon and you have access to every flight manual and maint manual

[rudestuff]

Does anyone know what seating layouts there are for the various models of MD/Hughes 500?
I know you can get 3 front 2 back in the E model, but is it possible to get this layout in a D model? The only ones i've found so far seem to have 2 front and 3 in the back - which means a sore neck for whoever gets the middle seat...

[Hughesy]

I have been flying both D and E models lately, and both have had the 3 front,2 rear seat config. Same with the old C model and Notar i uesd to fly.
Never seen it the other way round though.
So yes, you can have it like that in a D model.
Hope that helps.
Hughesy

[Hughes500]

Rudestuff. Flown 25 different 500's yet to see one with 3 in the back. There was a diagram showing 4 in the back in a mil one I flew. How they achieved that I will never know.
All models of civi ones are 3 in front 2 in back

[Rich Lee]

The four in the back layout was called, not surprisingly, the 'four on the floor' configuration. It was a utility, high density configuration. The seats were nothing more than pads, each with a seatbelt, and it required that the passengers sit with the opposite passengers legs intertwined. It has been used by military special operations, SWAT, utility operators and sky divers. Have not seen a 500 equipped in that configuration in a long time.

[nouseforaname]

Hi,

Was flying a H500c back from Denmark, got as far as Holland (about 50nm E Amsterdam) and got a t/r chip warning light.

Inspected the chip detector with a local engineer and found there to be fragments on the detector. Cleaned the detector and replaced and more chips arrived after a short hover taxi, no warning light though.

Just wondering if any of you guys have H500 experience and have had a t/r chip warning light and what was the eventual outcome?

Thanks, TD

[kissmysquirrel]

Probably a great idea to have the tail rotor g/box inspected thoroughly before any more flight if debris found after cleaning plug. I'm not an a/c engineer but I would imagine it's possibly a pre-warning of something more serious. Usually, bits of 'fuzz' find their way onto the plugs in g/boxes etc, but after cleaning the plug, none should be found so soon after. That would apply to all heli types, not just h500!!
Check if second lot of particles are ferrous with a magnet. Again, not sure what components are made from but my advice? GET IT CHECKED before flying it again.:=

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

Describe the bits -

a) Dark paste = bearing outer race spinning in housing

b) Shiny thin pieces with jagged edge possibly flower shaped and maybe slightly dished = ball bearing failure

c) Slivers and some black paste = gear failure

d) Nothing on detector but light ON when detector installed = broken gear tooth and part is too big to fit out through detector fitting (no joke). Have seen the same on Allison RGB and 500C MGB - parts too big to fit out through the chip detector hole.

As always refer to Aircraft Maintenance manual for the final say. Relatively cheap and easy gearbox to repair, is the same as 300C and interchangeable, but beware different and lower finite lives on the gears if it has been used on a 300.

[Encyclo]

Not much in there to come apart...so if you have metal on the chip detector get the engineer to investgate before further flight; it will not get better on it's own.:ok:

[nouseforaname]

i'm back in England now, left the helicopter in Holland. Was not intending to fly it until fully checked an given go ahead from engineer.

What I found on the detector was some shiny and dark grey thin pieces all the way around the detector the detector is obviously magnetic (may sound stupid to some of you but i'm not experienced with these things) and the particles were about 2mm in length all the way around the detector.

if it means anything the tail rotor gb was overhauled about 10-15hrs ago....

An engineer whom I know as he worked on our aircraft came down, inspected what he saw and we ran the engine on the ground for about 10mins, no light came on but more particles were found.

Doesn't sound good to me so I won't fly it.

How much of a big deal is the replacement of the tail rotor gbox?

[the coyote]

Not as much as a TR gearbox failure....:E

[nouseforaname]

Was glad it wasn't the main transmission but anyway....has anyone else had to replace a t/r gear box? is it that much of a big deal?

Also, does anyone know a good maintenance place in the UK for hughes helicopters. Good meaning good maintenance and good value (I was going to say cheap but that is taboo in helicopter maintenance I imagine!)

[ConwayB]

Hi there,
I've only got about 300 hrs on 500s but have had a number of tail rotor problems:
Chips, short circuits and a Total loss of tail rotor control due to an unusual mechanical failure, (If you fly 500s regularly, I urge you to read the accident/incident report here so you can check on this particular problems: http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2005/AAIR/aair200505332.aspx
I like the info that Giovanni has put in. That's good stuff.
Here's my two cents worth...
The chip detector is a magnetic plug with two elements. When the elements are bridged by metal particles, the circuit is made and the T/R chip light illuminates on the master caution panel.
Sometimes, new components will wear down whilst they are 'bedding in' and some small particles will float and be caught. It is not unusual.
Some chip detectors have a thing called 'Fuzz Burn' which will put a larger electrical charge through small particles and disintegrate them. The reason is that small particles are normal wear and tear and if they're small enough to be burnt off using Fuzz Burn, then they are not really anything to worry about. (Fuzz Burn will sometimes cause the warning light to come on momentarily and then, once the item is burnt off, will extinguish).
If the chip is too big to be burnt off using Fuzz Burn, then the circuit will be made and the light will activate. This indicates significant chip in the system. Put the aircraft on the ground!
On one occassion, the T/R chip light was constantly illuminated but more dimly than other warning lights.
What to do?
1. Check chip detector - remove detector, look for chips, (save any chips on a piece of sticky tape folded over itself so that it can be used for analysis by engineers), clean chip detector, replace.
2. Do ground run for 30 mins.
3. Check chip detector again as in step 1. If no chips, then it's your decision to continue. Seek maintenance advice and then make a decision based on received information, flight manual/maintenance manual recommendations, your judgement, your comfort level and level of risk. (If in doubt, stay on the ground!)
4. If light is still on, get someone to earth/ground the connecting wire whilst you watch the caution panel. If the light illuminates brightly, then that's what it will look like if you have a chip. If the circuit is broken (when your helper ceases earthing/grounding the wire) and the light returns to its less bright condition, then you have a short circuit in the system.
What does this mean if the above happens? Well, the light will stay on because of the short circuit but if you get a chip, then the light will burn brightly. If you decide to continue, then remember that you'll have to keep an eye on the brightness of the warning light (which you can confirm by activating the press to test function of the MCP and comparing the different levels of brightness). Be aware of the difficulty in seeing warning lights when sunlight is shining directly on the MCP.
It means you can get to your destination with relative confidence in the chip detection system but you do so at your own peril. You must be happy that you can tell when you have a real indication compared to the constant false indication.
I was happy to fly the aircraft (solo without passengers) to the next destination which, at my insistance, was an airport that could do maintenance and fix the short circuit. The bosses were happy with the decision and so was I. T/R gearbox replaced, circuitry replaced, aircraft good to go.
Once, when I was flying Chinooks, we got a chip light, landed and pulled the detector. A bearing race had collapsed and the chips were over 1cm long (1/3 inch). One of them had a serial number stamped on it. NO JOKE!
Safe flying
CB

[nouseforaname]

Thanks for your info CB (and everyone else of course)

the airport where the light came on is a very helpful one, we get our fixwing a/c maintained there which was v. lucky!

So I left it there and have a company called Helli Holland coming down to look at it. I spoke to the guy I bought the helicopter off and he is getting a new or o/h tr gearbox and he is going to fit it to the helicopter.

Thanks for help again.TD

[Hughes500]

Only one company that is any good with 500's in Uk - Skytech helicopters at Sywell. Give Martin or Carrol a ring 01604493137

[rudestuff]

Anyone know of a 500 for sale in the US around the $450k mark?

[ditchy]

I recall having t/r chip lights come on with newly installed gearboxes. Being out in the bush, I always carried lockwire and the required wrench to check it myself. It was usually fuzz, which was cleaned off and monitored. However, my experience has been that any slivers [bearing casing usually] has lead to a change of gearbox.

[Skycop9]

I have around 1600 hrs in 500's. Had both T/R chip light and Main Transmission lights come on. On 2 separate occassions T/R came on.
1st. Bearing let loose. We could almost get part numbers off of crap in Gear Box.
2nd T/R The bearing was turning on shaft making medal. I think it may have been nickle or iron. Can't recall the lab results. Replaced bearing and shaft on that one. The oil turned a dark brownish color.
On the Main Tranmission it was a silver paste. The gears were coming apart.
The RFM says Land as soon as possible when you get a chip light. I have never had a chip light come on when it wasn't a problem.

[perfrej]

I took my PPL in 96 in a 300C. Turbine transition was on the 330 in 97, and then - the dream - the 500 in 98. I did the type rating at SAAB Helicopter south of Stockholm, the instructor being an extremely experienced bush pilot from half-way up north (PG Johnson, Dala Helikopter). I had some time from the right seat in the baggage, but never was I prepared for the response and the bush capabilities of this machine.

I remember landing in a just cleared forest area with the left skid on the remains of a proud fir. My right hand just met my left (left leg lifted...) as the right skid made ground contact. Do that in a 206...

Anyway, the 500 is a very agile machine and I love it. Yes, it has stick forces that have to be countered, yes, it is a bit tight in the back, and no, it is not a big helicopter.

I feared the full touch-down autorotations. They were mean and scary. Today, with a few more hours, the scare is gone. I recently did my PC in a 500D and had a number of wonderful autos, all full touch down - one with a massive over-shoot. Didn't think it would go that far... I now love them.

So, for what it is worth, I declare my love for one of the best helicopters ever made. It is fun, agile, manouverable, quick, responsive and could be compared to a Ferrari. It's not the choice for long flights (just did a five hour ferry in the D-model - GAH!) nor for moving grandma around. For grandma, I'll take the 206L... I also beleive it is the best machine to completely crash and roll in. No way to break the egg.

/per

Just PPL(H), but going for a CPL(H) for my fiftieth birthday.

[mustering guru]

Boys!

my 2 cents....... i have flown the 500 in alot of different situations only the D model i have about 2000hrs in them and to this day ( touch wood) have had no real major probs! it would be the best production long line platform i have ever used and with good Dailys an some TLC from engineers is a great safe work horse! it's old tested and proven! not a fan of the new blades though cant lift as much.

MG.

[206 jock]

I've come across an ad for three Danish ex-military 500C's (369 HM's IIRC), that are now in the UK and being offered on US Civil reg's. I'm guessing that they would be subject to similar restrictions as our home-grown ex-mil Gazelles if anyone tried to put them on a 'G', though in theory as they on a foreign register, there are no Permit to fly restrictions enforceable?

Anybody know anything about them? Are they to be snapped up or avoided like the plague?

Thanks,

206 Jock (maybe one day 500 Jock!)

[Hughes500]

Depends on the serial numbers.
If they are 369M then no chance
If they have a normal civilian serial number then you might be ok. I would guess the engines are the mil version of the C18 ( T 700 I think ), if they are you have no chance. bear in mind one of the first UK mil gazelles was put on the Zwaziland reg used in the Uk for about a week before it was grounded by the CAA !!!
Let me know how you get on. They are rather expensive for a C18 powered machine mind you

[DennisK]

Hi 500 enthusers.

Just a couple of notes to correct some misconceptions.

The Hughes 369HM model HAS BEEN CAA certifiable. Have personally flown the right hand drive military machine many times, including for a CAA C of A Air test. G-RAMM for the reggie buffs.

The 369 (500) ... 269 (300) nomenclature is quite simple. The civil marketing guys at Culver City decided to use the 300 designation to indicate a three seat capability. Likewise the 369 was marketed as the 500 for its five seats.

Just for the craic ... as they seem to say in Ireland, I've seen the 500 lifted into a low hover with nine up. (3 plus 4 and 1 per skid.) Ditto the Enstrom 28C, being six up (2 plus 2 per skid)

Both machines were certified in the utility category.

Dennis K

[Hedski]

Has there ever been a 5 bladed version of the C model possibly C18 powered still with the old V tail?
I can remember a reference many years ago to one but it may have been inaccurate or just a pre D model testbed.

[RotorDompteur]

Danish Army 500Cs;

I believe that they have been maintained to a very high standard and that they are in fine condition - their age considered.

But unfortunately they have not been maintained according to current JAA/EASA regulations, so I suspect that it is unlikely that they will get european registrations - at least the Danish CAA have indicated that they won't have anything to do with it.

As far as I know most of them are on their way to N-reg one way or another.

RD

[Hughes500]

Dennis

You are right about G-RAMM now G-HAUS but there were only 11 369M's built to civi spec, all the rest were not and cant have a normal c of a cat.
Best person to speak to on this is Martin Lovell at Skytech helicopters, without doubt the best 500 engineer in the country.

[Woolf]

Taken from the Roto&Wing website:

MD Helicopters have just announced the development of a new variant of their popular MD500 helicopter. This move is seen as a step to combat the rising market share of rival Eurocopter in the US market. The new MD500HS will be in direct competition with Eurocopters EC120 model. It is said that the MD500HS will be considerably cheaper in acquisition and running costs and also feature the following improvements:

Completely re-designed main and tail rotor:
The new design achieves a higher lift to weight ratio with shortened blades. This will help to minimise the footprint of the aircraft both in terms of noise and downwash.

High skids:
The extended skids will increase the aircrafts usefulness in rough terrain or tall grass and also allow the mounting of various types of equipment under the aircrafts fuselage. These modifications should attract new customers in various sectors.

MD Helicopters is confident that this new addition to the MD500 range will be a serious competitor on the US market and fill a market niche which currently exists in the law enforcement industry.

The new model can be seen here. (http://www.heyokamagazine.com/images/helicopterWEB.jpg)

:D

Woolf

[Sir HC]

That's odd, they seem to be going back to the old C model nose! Maybe the E model noses did have a strange effect on pitch after all! Great laugh. Thanks for getting my hopes up!

[Viken Kouyoumdjian]

Tried the link to the seller and cannot open it. Can you give the contact info to the seller?

[500 Fan]

Hedski,
just saw your query re. a 5-bladed 500C. Don't know anything about a 500C, but the Snohomish Sheriff's Dept has a heli listed as an OH-6A. Reg is N13SD. It looks like an OH-6A but has two interesting features I haven't seen on any other civilian Y-tailed airframe; namely a four-bladed tail-rotor and a five-bladed main rotor. It carries a sizeable FLIR and a nitesun so, with this load, is probably fitted with a C20 unit. There are two possible explanations for this configuration;

1. Hughes developed a prototype dubbed the OH-6D (not the Japanese licence-built 500D) to compete with the Bell OH-58D for the AHIP contract in the early eighties. This was an OH-6A with a transmission and rotor system taken from the 500D and a mast-mounted sight. Maybe this is it turned over to the Police, just one of the few hundred OH-6As given away for very little to US Law Enforcement agencies in the nineties.

2. The other explanation is that it was formerly a Hughes 500P. Long story but basically the 500P was used by the CIA in Vietnam in 1972 for a special mission. Again its a Hughes prototype with a five-bladed main head and four-bladed tail rotor. Had an engine heavily insulated with sound-proofing material and a silencer fitted to the exhaust cone. With the extra blades, rotor RPMs were reduced to help make things quieter. Some of these improvements were incorporated into the 500C and lead to the 500D.
(I'd post a photo or two if I knew how.)


Finally, a question. Can anyone who flies a 500D please tell me the purpose of the semi-circular cover that fits in front of the rotormast at the front of the doghouse. Seems to be fitted to machines being used in very cold weather. Can anyone explain how it works?

Thanks.

[skippers]

500 Fan,

The semi-circular cover that fits infront of the rotor mast is called an inlet diverter. It is used to prevent falling snow from entering the air intake.
It must be removed when the outside air temp goes above a certain value (cant remember of the top of my head) to stop the engine temp getting to high.

[500 Fan]

Skippers, thanks for that. :ok:

Apologies for the double post.

500 fan.

[BSHJAY]

Does anyone out there in toyland know if a Hughes 369A (OH-6A) has ever been certified in the european market (i.e JAA/EASA).:ugh:

Any info would be appreciated

All I have found are US Reg.

[ppheli]

Phil Connolly up north who flies Huey G-UHIH has recently imported an OH-6A and appropriatetly registered it G-OHGA and the CAA data shows they are aiming for a permit for it as it will, like the Huey, only be flying for displays. At Heli-Expo it was confirmed he is getting a Cobra too..... Go to HUEY.CO.UK (http://www.huey.co.uk/) and off the Welcome menu check "Our Helicopters...." for photos.

I would expect that's the nearest you will ever get to a non-US registered OH-6A flying in Europe. Not EASA/JAA certified, Permit only.

[500 Fan]

The closest thing to an OH-6A certified in Europe is probably this particular version of the Hughes 500, which I believe was certified as the H369HE and was refered to as the Hughes 369A.

Hughes 369HS, G-AYIA, Private (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1027881/)

They were the first civilian versions delivered by Hughes in 1969. The instrument panel and rear doors were different from the OH-6A but otherwise they appear similar. The windows over the rear passenger compartment are of the larger variety commonly seen on the OH-6A. The later Hughes 500C has smaller overhead windows.

Hughes built a number of OH-6A demonstrators to promote the type in the late sixties and many were civil-registered and flown by the company at air shows around the world. They were never delivered to the U.S. Army. These, potentially, are the only OH-6As that might be eligible for inclusion on any civil register in Europe, except for the one mentioned by ppheli.

500 Fan.

[ericferret]

The 369 HS and HE are identical apart from the fact that the HE (Hughes Executive) had a plusher interior. Both are left hand drive 5 seaters.

The HM is the nearest to the OH6 and came with a troop seat interior with hard points and is a right hand drive 4 seater. Reason for 4 seats is that the centre seat cannot be fitted as the pilots collective is a permanent fixture.

The HM cost more than the others due to the cost of the hard points.

The only HM I am aware of was originally Irish registered and belonged to one of the Ferranti brothers. There was a specific reason why a right hand drive aircraft was purchased but old age sadly has stolen that information. I do remember Ferrantis engineer Malcolm Ebbut telling me a tall tale about how his bosses eyesight was so poor he had a ships binnacle compass fitted just behind the centre console. Anyway the first time I ever saw the aircraft I made a beeline for the cockpit and lo and behold residing on the floor behind the console was a six inch gimbal mounted ships compass!!!!!!!!!!!!!l

[Nigel Osborn]

Denis Ferranti lost his left eye motor cycle racing in the Isle of Man when quite young. The Irish caa made him sit in the right hand seat, hence the 500M, & a professional pilot sat in the left to keep an eye on the T & Ps! In spite of that handicap, even at age 69 when I flew with him, he did extremely well, also in his MU2:ok:

[Hughes500]

G-RAAM was the Ferranti machine now G-HAUS maintained by Skytech helicopters

[ericferret]

Another Malcolm Ebbut story involved the MU2. Apparently after a trip in the beast Mr Ferranti turned to Malcolm and said "this aircraft gives me a headache, go and buy me an HS125". So he did!!!!!

The joys of loads of money!!!!!!

[Nigel Osborn]

That's not quite right. Dennis needed a long distance stoll machine & while refueling his HS125 in Gan ( if my memory is right!) on his way back from Sri Lanka, he saw a MU2 also refueling. He was so impressed with the MU2, he immediately bought one as it could land on a grass strip near his home which the HS125 couldn't. He also had a Bell 206 which he used to take to his chateau in the south of France while the 500 would go to his mansion in Scotland! An incredible person!!

[ericferret]

I suspect that Malcolm was a believer in the old adage "never let the truth get in the way of a good story"!!!!!!!!!

Somewhere in the tale also lies a flying boat. Malcolm had a licence for a Grumman Mallard and I half remember that had something to do with Ferranti as well, although I could be totally wrong about that.

[starflex3]

Does the transmission have a accessory drive on a MD500 to allow for airconditioning?
I have never seen a 500 series helicopter with AirCon.

[helofixer]

MD 500 Air Conditioning System | Integrated Flight Systems (http://www.integratedflightsys.com/products/airconditioning/md-500)

[gafa1]

Take the door off!!!:ok:

[starflex3]

Thanks guy's

[starflex3]

A question for the people who have flown the different types of 500's.
What are the handling characteristics for and against's for the normal two bladed tail rotor, four bladed (quiet tail rotor) and the NOTAR system.

[gafa1]

2 bladed tail rotor very responsive, 4 bladed uses a bit more pedal, especially when heavy and high, really have to watch it then, notar no idea, apparently pretty fish tail like!!:eek:

[Hughes500]

Starflex

2 blade tailrotor, lots of bite and very powerful
4 bladed maybe quiet but very expensive, not so much bite, engine off landings need a load more pedal as authority is not as good
Notar hm difficult to describe, put an input in and then wait for about 2 seconds for a response. In laymans terms think of it like the clutch in the car. Just before service the clutch travels along way to get the bite ( Notar)
Take car to garage, they adjust clutch / put new one in. Clutch now appears to be more like an on off switch than before ( 2 blade tailrotor)
Personally I would have the 2 bladed tail rotor everytime.

[500e]

Starflex think of shooting you just lead the bird:E but read the poh

[euroastar350]

Gents,

On the 4-blade tail rotor for the MD500, what are the degrees in which the blades are spaced? I know for the Apache, it is 55/125. Any help is appreciated.

[Ian Corrigible]

In the absence of a more accurate response, from the schematics the separation looks to be about 80°, i.e. much wider than on the Apache (and than on the MELB, which uses a different close-coupled design with ~20° separation).

I/C

[SASless]

Air Con.......here's your danged Air Con!

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/military-020.jpg

[euroastar350]

Thanks much for the response Ian:ok:

[HELOFAN]

SASless....thats the best A/C ever!!

[Evil Twin]

I'd like to see a W&B sheet, 6 on board!

[catseye]

A question for hughes 500

For the fuel burn figures on page 2 of this post was the airframe a C and the engine a C18 or c20.

Need a fuel burn for a C18 powered C model. Litres/kg/UK gals/US gals/lbs acceptable.

Thanks. :ok:

[Hughes500]

depends upon how power you are pulling. max cont cruise in a c18 normally about 18 gals hour, so you have about 2hr 30 to 2 hr 40 until empty
However this will depend upon how well blades are tracked, how good the compressr is and how good the turbine is !!

[BigMike]

A little bit of wall sitting... MELB (Mission Enhanced Little Bird)

http://www.patricksaviation.com/uploads/photos/19080.jpg

[chopjock]

What's the guy in the front left seat doing? is he a pilot or a grunt?

[TwinHueyMan]

Most likely a pilot. The little birds fly with 2 pilots unless weight is a big issue for a specific mission.

Those things are beasts.

[catseye]

Mixing lever,
does your rocket have a 5 or 6 blade head??

The eye

[500e]

Chop reckon right seat has control at present, look for feet

[500 Fan]

The MELB has a six-blade rotorhead. It is being used on the new Boeing AH-6i gunship as well. It was mentioned a while back that the extra blade might not exactly be a step forward. Maybe it will be fitted with the original five-bladed head for the next upgrade.

500 Fan.

[loggerman]

Would there be much difference in autorotation in a H500c (with 4 blades) and a H500d (with 5 blades) ie the decent,inertia and touchdown etc. thanks

[BigMike]

It's been a while since I have flown either, but I seem to remember them both being pretty similar. They do come down pretty quick.
'hughes500' will be able to give you the answer.

[starflex3]

I have a couple of questions about the Hughes 500.
What were the technical reasons for changing from a 4 blade head and Y tail in the 500C to a 5 blade head and T Tail in the 500D,E etc.
What changes did it make to handling.
Thanks in advance!
:confused:

[mfriskel]

1 more blade allows higher gross weight and T-tail for handeling characteristics and CofG reasons.

[Freewheel]

The extra blade reduces the tendency to RBS and my suspicions are that the T tail makes the handling more predictable. The mast cap is a drag reduction item.

[Hughes500]

Cant say I have ever noticed the difference between a c and a d in auto. The only that has a real difference is a notar they just sit at a different attitude and are interesing on the pedals !

[diethelm]

I think Mr. Friskel or Rich Lee would be some of the best persons with this data.

[HelicopterBravo9]

Hi guys,

Can any of you recommend any 500's for sale in the UK right now please?

I know Eastern Atlantic are the dealer and have some pre-owned ones but anywhere else spring to mind? Anyone know of any particualr ones available?

Its for private use but must be on the G register. Not a half million pound jobby though....

Question for Hughes 500:

I've read through this whole thread and you seem to be the UK man in the know.....
On the second page I think it was you did a bit of a run down on operating costs, that was some years ago so wondered if you would mind doing the same but with 2009 prices....


Appreciate any help guys thanks

[Hughes500]

Give me a ring

home is 01647277533
mob 07775533504

Andrew

[loggerman]

Just a quick question or two for the 500 experts:-
can a C20R engine be turned into a C20B by way of changing a few bits and pieces ie FCU and bits of the compressor etc,or is it a completely different engine and set up?
Or another idea would it be doable to swap the engine with someone who wants the hot and high performance for their C20B,would there be anything else you would need to change on the heli that goes with the C20R
also would the paperwork with the caa be straight forward to do the change?
Hope this makes sense.
Thanks

[Hughes500]

No problem with changing the engine for a C20B, will need to change torque gague as well. I dont believe you can change bits on the engine. Better off selling the whole engine. I have a C20B engine complete but not interested in a swap. Why do you wish to swap ? Apart from fuel consumption maybe ?

[mfriskel]

You can convert to C20B (acft, not convert the C20R engine), but will be some guages changed and some metal work were the compressor mates to the airframe. Call MD customer support for all the requirements, to include proper documentation.
What is the main reason you want the change? There are some advantages to the C20R including TBO, and some of the older problems can for sure be fixed now (N2 lockup). Starting difficulties can be completely eliminated with Intellistart (or whatever it is called now).

[loggerman]

The reasons for my odd questions are:-
I would like to sell my 300c and get a 500
I know of a 500e for sale with a C20R in it but many people i talk to have put me off the C20R because of the higher fuel consumption and higher running costs so i was wondering if it would be easier just to get this machine and try and swap the engine with someone who was looking for a C20R
Or could anyone advise me where the best place to sell my 300C and does anyone know where there is a 500 for sale?
anyone is welcome to pm me.
thanks

[diethelm]

The cost of switching from an R to a B would exceed the additional cost of operating, maintaining or even upgrading the R to an R+. Several shops in the US do B to R swaps.

Assuming identical aircraft with identical times, most would prefer the R and might actually pay a little more. As a former owner of an overhaul shop, I would prefer the B but would not be afraid of the R. I would however tell the seller of the aircraft that since it did not have an R, I need an additional discount. :)

[Hughes500]

diethelm

Have to disagree ( with people would prefer an R) I can see no reason to have an R engine unless you live somewhere hot or high. Seeing as loggerman lives in Wales UK which is neither renowned as being hot or high ( Snowdon 3500 ft or there abouts) In fact he would be better off having floats than a C20r as it rains that much in Wales.

All my 500's have had B's and they have never run out of tot before torque.
Having just reread your post I see with your overhaul head on you would prefer a B prey tell why

[loggerman]

It doesnt always rain in south Wales! infact we have had about 12 days this year when it hasnt rained!
am i right in thinking you get more life on an C20R before overhaul than a C20B then and if so does this extra life counter the extra fuel costs?
Hughes500 if you have got some running costs would love to have a look please if possible.

[diethelm]

Hughes 500:

I too would prefer a B over an R, but in America, the market seems to like R's as it does pay more for equivalent ships with an R over a B. Most users think, oh another 25 SHP.........

Personally, I prefer a C30 in mine.

Like most engines, you make more power by pushing more air more efficiently through the contraption. B's are simply less stressed and as such are more reliable and more likely to make it to hot section and overhaul without intermittent repairs. Rolls would disagree but I think the field experience data would support my observation.

[Hughes500]

Diethelm

One of my C20B is coming up for an HMI where would you recommend in N America ? Just comparing prices Europe v USA

[500 Fan]

Does anyone know the registration of the first Model 530F at the time of its first flight on the 22nd of October 1982?

I have only been able to identify the early 530Fs from 0004F onwards, which was probably the first production F-model. The first three Fs were possibly converted from D-or E-model airframes (If anyone can identify No. 2 or 3 as well, that would be appreciated too). Thanks.

500 Fan.

[500club]

Hi 500 fan,
A couple of months ago I stumbled across the information you seek. However, I did not bookmark the site as I wasn't actually after that info!!
Subsequently I have spent the last 2 hours looking again for that site with no luck. All I can say is that it is (or was) out there, and let me know if you did find the info so as to put me out of my misery.
By the way, I'm fairly sure that you are correct in saying it was originally flown in an E airframe, Cheers

[heli_79]

Does anyone have current cots per incurred in $USD terms?

Doesn't have to be accurate, just ball park figures. Mainatince/future components/fuel based on 400-500 hrs per ann

Op's are small amount of commerical, but mainly tourist charter



thanks in advance
:confused:

[JTobias]

Two of my pals have just imported an MD500c (Hughes 369 HS).

You can read about it here (http://jetbox.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/anyone-got-a-mattress/)

Joel:ok:

[loggerman]

i must say it looks very original and straight a good find !
are they putting it on the g reg? or leaving it on the n reg?
log

[JTobias]

Hi

The intention is to transfer onto the G-REG

Joel:ok:

[500 Fan]

I'm doing a bit of research into the whole H-6/H500 family of helicopters and I have a few questions about the latest version, the H-6M and the AH-6X/i series. These helicopters have a six blade main rotor head (apparently lifted from the MD600N) and a four blade tail rotor.

1. What are the benefits of the six blade system over the previous five and four blade heads?

2. Does it have inferior autorotation performance characteristics when compared to the five or four blade system?

3. Does the six blade system offer greater responsiveness over less-populated heads?

4. I think it was mentioned earlier that the older four blade system outperforms the five blade system at very high altitudes. Does the six blade head compound this problem and if so, can it be compensated for by simply having a big, powerful engine (which it appears the H-6M is fitted with)?

5. Should the 160th SOAR and Boeing consider reverting to a five or four blade system with a more efficient rotor blade design for extreme high altitude ops in places like Afghanistan?

On to the canted four blade tail rotor. Apparently this system has not met with universal approval from the 160th pilots. The A/MH-6M are due to go through a Block 1.0 upgrade soon and a yaw stability system is slated for installation.

1. What is the reason for mounting the tail rotor disc at an offset angle from the vertical?

If anyone can offer any answers to these questions, they will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.:ok:

500 Fan.

[Hughes500]

Would assume that the only way to increase max auw is to
1. Lengthen mrb's etc as per FF model However then have to slow blades down to stop tip going too fast. Easier solution add another blade.
2. Dont forget the 5 blade machines have a lower service ceiling as the certification is for flight at max auw. 2550lbs for 4 blades and 3000lbs for 5 blades, hence some of the decreased performance is due to higher auw.

Looking forward to those in the know answering other questions. I believe the melb as max take off of over 5500 lbs:eek:

[NRS]

Hello, I was hoping someone might have a general "rules of thumb" for the 500. Something like what you find all over for the Jetranger. Anything would be appreciated, thanks.

[Freewheel]

High step when walking around all models.

The skid toes are much higher than the 206 and it's really, really embarrassing to forget. :uhoh:

[Scissorlink]

I was once told that for every pound in the tank over 200Ibs is 2 pounds less on the hook...Anyone else heard that??

[Vertical Freedom]

Why are there so many NZ 500 Pilots walking away from running machines?? Under FAA, CASA, DGCA & JAR regs its illegal to leave a running machine unless equipped with control locks, not just frictions, but locks??? hmmmmm whether by regulation or not seems to me like a pretty dangerous & unsafe practise :cool:

[CGWRA]

Get off your high horse its common practice all over the world and totally safe.

[RVDT]

Why are there so many NZ 500 Pilots walking away from running machines?? Under FAA, CASA, DGCA & JAR regs its illegal to leave a running machine unless equipped with control locks, not just frictions, but locks??? hmmmmm whether by regulation or not seems to me like a pretty dangerous & unsafe practise

Risk versus regulation, don't confuse legality with perceived safety. Many civil aviation authorities have tried to "regulate" safety. It doesn't work. There are many cases where it is safer to leave the controls and check things for yourself. Shutting down may not be "economic". Time, start cycles, control of pax, etc etc. How would you feel letting your pax load and close the doors or walk into the tail rotor while you sat there at the controls all smug and legal?

This has been a lot of debate about it in NZ in recent times. Some flight manuals preclude it. In NZ you may make a case / petition and if there is no objection or the risk is assessed it may be approved subject to conditions.

How many machines with "locks" have had them removed lately by the manufacturers because the pilot has managed to take off with them "on" or worse engage them in flight? I am aware of several. It cuts both ways.

Regulations are for the guidance of wise men and the obeyance of idiots. Legality does not always mean safety.:rolleyes:

There are more helicopters per head of population in NZ than just about anywhere - 750 machines for 4.3 million people? 105 of those are 500's. Unlike most countries a helicopter in NZ won't even draw a second glance. In fact someone gawking at a helicopter in New Zealand is obviously a "tourist."

[kevin_mayes]

Well Said...
Kev.

[Vertical Freedom]

RVDT, taking off with control locks ON, hmmm how can that be when the controls are LOCKED? So cannot move the controls or the lock is U/S. The 350's I fly have a collective lock but no cyclic lock, installed by the manufacturer & there is no way of taking off with it on - IMPOSSIBLE to move the lever. I flew OH58 on ag work which had both lever & stick lock for the purpose of exiting machine whilst running. We don't leave the Pilot to usher PAX but have a trained ground crew for that job, so no tail rotor mess??? Simpler & safer than the Pilot leaving the controls & maybe a village idiot hopping in for a play whilst the Pilot is on the other side managing PAX.

[Ned-Air2Air]

VF - I would just guess its horses for courses :ok:

Cheers

Ned

[Scissorlink]

Bet there has been more accidents with guys SITTING IN the helicopter then the pilot seat empty and its running. Usually if the helicopter flies away by itself its an insurance job :ok:


This topic has been beaten to death

[fling-wing_1]

I did a track and balance on a 500D recently. At 60kts the vibes are .094 ips and the aircraft is glass smooth. At 120kts the vertical vibes are .113 ips - still smooth but with pulling more torque now the 5per is noticeable and shows up as a growl in your butt {insert joke here.}

I know most "working" 500's rarely get below .2 at 120kts so maybe most folks have never noticed this phenomenon before. Running a spectrum shows the 5 per is .579 ips. I know that once the vertical reaches .1 or so it unmasks the 5 per.

Tried posting over on JH but, well you know... :ugh: Any suggestions for minimizing the 5 per without roughening up the ride?

[Hughes500]

F-W1
We discovered that all the blades weigh a different amount and that the 3 big blade shops master blade all all different weights :ugh:
What we do now is as follows
We puchased a very accurate set of scales where we can measure not only the whole blade but the tip weights as well. We then spraypaint the blades to equalise tip weights as well as total weight. We couldnt believe the difference in ease of balancing the machine. Only problem it does show up is the dampers, which unless they are all of the same age produce a problem. This problem doesnt manifest itself in the hover normally in forward flight when you start to pull a turn, you will then find out which damper is misbehaving. However at this stage the ac is very very smooth.
If you have a mismatch of blades eg blades with different erosion strips on them you will never get it just right !
Best of luck, let us know how uou get on.
By the way what track and balance kit are you using ?

[Brilliant Stuff]

You couldn't do our 135, you seem to know your way round the old blades and ours is rough even though the computer says all is well within limits.:ok:

[500e]

.094:uhoh: ok for starters

[fling-wing_1]

H500, I know a company that shall remain nameless that balances the disk by modifying tip weights :oh: This one's probably a bit off on the tip weights since I've touched up the l/e paint a couple times now. Lateral balance shows to be good though. I'll pull up the MicroVib data and see what the lead/lag looks like. I did touch-up the paint on 2 of the tail rotor blades and used a postal scale to get the tip weights within 2 grams of each other. They only took 3.5 grams to balance at 100% so pretty happy there. I reckon the idea of starting with equal tip weight, main and tail, is spot on. :ok:

Thing is, the same set of blades were smooth as glass two years ago before we changed the head. I dunno but a 5P being .579 seems awfully high. Funny thing is how many folks don't know the difference between the 1P and the 5P. :ooh: I've got the question out to DSS and the factory. We'll see if they come up with anything.

Ah now the EC135, been trying to get my hands on one of those for a few years now. Seems no one wants to let you touch them without prior experience :*

[RVDT]

Seems no one wants to let you touch them without prior experience

Which is probably not unreasonable.

[fling-wing_1]

Yep, those crazy, wacky, Americans. Why, they'll let anybody with a license work on just about anything! And the accident rate is...why just about the same as other countries with their draconian regs :E

Why you would ever think to let a guy with experience on everything from C150's to G350's and BO105's to TwinStar's even touch a precious 135 is beyond me. I bet I couldn't even figure out how to unlock the doors :}

Thank God for the HR folks otherwise the aviation industry in this country would be on a one way ticket to oblivion! :rolleyes:

Seriously though, it isn't like these things are going to the moon. If the engineers would share just a bit of their info we all might be a bit better off. It ain't rocket science what the blade shops are doing. If they would tell us in the field what they do to the blades as far as balance goes, we all might be a bit better off. :hmm:

[RVDT]

Flung Wung 1,

May be of interest - RWAS (http://www.rwas.com.au/index.html)

[500e]

Price was around £13.k Fob AU if I remember ( I await correction) & that was 2 years ago + at the time they had no data for the 500s.
Fling-wing1
How do you find the DDS, both for ease of use & service are you part of the UK agents

[fling-wing_1]

RVDT, thanks for the link - brilliant stuff! Just the type of thing I enjoy reading :ok: Sorry bout the post the other night, no offense meant. Was feeling a bit cheeky, couple glasses of wine will do that :E I agree, it's not unreasonable to want folks with experience working on your ship. I do think a zero tolerance policy often misses the boat though. A person's background and experience should be factored in before making a decision. Factory training goes a long way to help with that situation. However, there's a lot to be said for the knowledge learned in a mentoring situation as well.

500e, I'm doing contract work in the states right now so can't comment on the situation in the UK at the moment. DSS support is great. They don't always have an answer but they will try hard to find one for you. Pretty knowledgeable folks as to track and balance too. I've never been disappointed in the level of support and help they've offered. The MicroVib takes a bit to get used to but it's pretty user intuitive once you get the basics down. The processor is pretty old so it's a bit slow compared to the Chadwick 2000. I hear a new one is coming out one of these days but they won't provide upgrades so you'll need to buy a new unit. :* 12-13,000 USD is out the door price these days so I hear. I bought mine used a few years ago so not up to speed on current pricing. Overall, I'm quite happy with mine as well as the level of support. Never had a problem getting info (group files and machine files) for the 500's. DSS guys are quite up to speed on balancing the 500 as well. :ok: Got a buddy who claims a DSS rep came out and had a D model like glass in 5 runs using the computer solutions. Never worked for me but then I tend to not use the computer as much as the track data. Never had the DSS training though. :}

Here's the lastest:

Talked with some folks over the last couple days and here's what we came up with for those who might care...

The DSS and factory folks say the 5P is usually somewhere around .2 to .3 but can be as high as .5 to .6 ips on the 500.

On this heli, a 5P of .58 ips is the what we have right now. Since the human body is more sensitive to the 1P which occurs at 487 cycles per minute (main rotor rpm) , the answer is to roughen up the ride by throwing a blade out of track so the 1P increases up to around .2 to .3. This has the effect of fooling the body into not noticing the 5P, which occurs at 2428 cycles per minute, as much.

I still wonder why changing the head would increase the 5P so much but so far no one has been able to give a good answer. Too bad there seems to be no way to modify the 5P which is the naturally occurring vibe of each blade.

Thanks for all the input and ideas over the weekend. :ok: Sure would love to hear from some of the guru's like Shawn and Nick, :8

[Hell Man]

hKgWqlAS54M&feature=related

MD500E River Rescue

[krypton_john]

Hmm, if the two guys fell off as it was lifting away from the water I wonder how it would react to the sudden weight change?

[carsickpuppy]

Reminds me of a time while fish spotting in a Hughes, I was dropping a buoy close to the surface when the darn thing got hung up. In two shakes the fish spotter had his headset off, seat belt unbuckled and was out on the float using it as a trampoline.
The seas were a little rough, if he had fallen in it might have been tough to get him back onboard. He would have had a tussle with a shark or two while waiting for the boat to show up.. :ooh:

[Hell Man]

.. I wonder how it would react to the sudden weight change?


KJ - Among the 'lite' helos the 500 is probably the best suited for managing sudden changes in lateral loading. A couple of decades ago one (sometimes two) deer handlers jumping on and off the right skid of a 500 would have been a daily occurence across NZ!

CarSick - A little somethin from the past:

http://tunaseiners.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/moggy85.jpg

HM

[RVDT]

..................and all the Fish Head soup you can eat! Bonus!

[carsickpuppy]

Cheers HM..........

There's a Hughes in the first pic, must still make it relevant to the thread ;)

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac158/skinnia_tibia/UniverseKim106.jpg

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac158/skinnia_tibia/UniverseKim104.jpg

[NZowned]

Wanting a little help from all you out there with experience in the 500E model. I've just got a job flying one on Ag and commercial opps. I am wanting to know the best way to do a power check for a confined landing in this machine. Thanks in advance..

[Hell Man]

The quickest way (if you're working operationally) is to get as close as you can (safely) to an OGE hover, observe all the numbers (and ambient temp) with your current loading and see what you've got left. Do the same on a regular basis to check ongoing engine performance.

If its a standard E model and so long as you ain't too high and too heavily loaded, confined ops shouldn't normally pose a problem. Just make sure you've enough power to clear the confined area (vertically) with sufficient space to nose forward from the top of the vertical ascent and gain forward speed - better to make two trips and than one permanent one!

HM

as a post script - should you ever be tempted to 'load up' n' go out of a confined area when you're too heavy, just remember that this could be you ...

dEA9DeF-UQ4

[RVDT]

UnZudowned,

Until you are familiar with the machine there is this blue book normally just to the right of your head (when in the pilots seat) in a little box that should be placarded "Flight Manual".

Check out the Performance Section.

Do a few sample scenarios and derive a few "Rules of Thumb"

It beats guessing by a wider margin.

In some countries this is actually a requirement and may also be in yours. Check the details.

[starflex3]

Here is a question, I have heard people say that the MD 500D is faster and more reliable than the MD 500E why?
The only difference I see is the pointy nose and the different tabs on the T tail.
Hughes 500 you have owned both why is this?
Please fill me in!

[Hughes500]

Starflex
The other big difference is the bigger end plates on the horizontal stab. The first couple of hundred E 's had a strake on the point of the nose and a surfboard on top of the dog house, supposedly as they had problems with the airflow over the horiz stab hence trim tab and end plates. I presume this slowed the machine down. many pilots claim the D is smoother, cant say I have noticed.
The D model has a higher vne of 156kts v 152. However I have owned 4 E models ( 2 with surfboards, 2 without), fastest was 135 kts at max continuous where as my D will do close to 145 at max cont. Mind you none of them like going that fast. Normally cruise at 130kts pulling about 72 psi in a D
Not sure they are any more reliable other than they were made by Hughes rather than MD. I suppose any company when it takes over another always looks to reduce costs. However I never noticed a difference.
Still one of the most fun machines to fly nearly 50 years after it was born, says alot for 1960's engineering

[500 Fan]

Does this OH-6A have a D-Model tail-rotor fitted? It looks a little bigger in span than the regular tail-rotor currently fitted to the OH-6A and 500C.

YouTube - HUGHES 500

(Yer man seems to be more than a little happy to see this machine!)

500 Fan.

[nigelh]

Thats just how i sounded when i picked mine up last week !!!! Having never had a 500 before i have to say it takes 5 min to feel really comfortable flying it ...and 10 min to fall in love with it :)

[anti-talk]

Hey Nigel,

You bought a 500 and sold the french thingy??

Congrats

See you next time Im over in Hull from sunny Florida

Geoff

[Hughes500]

Nigel

I see you have come to the dark side of flying !!!!

[500 Fan]

This might be good news for Hughes/MD500 owners and operators;

Van Horn Aviation Conducts Successful First Flight Test of Composite MD 500 Main Rotor Blades | Vertical - Helicopter News (http://www.verticalmag.com/control/news/templates/?z=4&a=16666)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2js3H0cU-dE

It sounds like those blades might be a little quieter. It's hard to tell from a video, but the usual high-frequency blade tip noise seems to be missing with these new blades.

500 Fan.

[RVDT]

Blade tip noise from the Main Rotor?

How come a 4 blade TR machine is so quiet with original blades?

[mfriskel]

Wait till it is tracked and see what it really sounds like.
I thought most of that noise was tail rotor myself. The main rotor blades are fairly quiet until an increased g turn and let-down.
I know a 520N overflight at 200 feet at low power is extremly quiet with the metal blades.

I will be interesting to see when they announce forward flight testing.

[500tech]

Hey 500 Fan, I can hear no difference whatsoever for these m/r blades. You will not be able to tell unless the tail noise is reduced. Noise reduction is all hype by Van Horn & MD to sell these new blades:=

[Hughes500]

Noise

Hm dont think so, had a 520 and a 500e both start up the other day, as soon as the e model wound up the total noise from the notar had been drowned out by the e's tail rotor !!
Will the blades = more auw ? Presumably that will depend upon the tail rotor to provide the anti torqe. Would be more than happy not to have corrosion and erosion strip problems though. just bought a new set of blades from htc:ugh:
Mind you would prefer another operator to try them first !!!

[500 Fan]

The only way to categorically prove these new blades are quieter is to perform some kind of noise evaluation testing with a machine with standard blades and one with the Van Horn blades. Maybe that will form part of the test programme at some point. In the section of the video between 0:23 and 0:32, during the sidewards hover, the main blade noise seems to be quieter than you would expect. It certainly sounds "different".

500 Fan.

[catseye]

anyone have details on how to do a powercheck on a C18 powered 500c.

Thanks :ok:

[mfriskel]

pages 5-29 thru 5-31 of the Rotorcraft Flight Manual has the instructions and the chart.

[leef11]

Hi All

I cant find the thread but someone was asking if anyone knew of a 500 in the UK for self fly hire, Fast Helicopters now have one at Shoreham - a 500D with E nose conversion 20b engine - and an autopilot. Not sure of the rates but i heard they will hire to pilots with around 50 turbine hours any type and type rated for the 500, - they will also do type ratings on it if needed

The guy dealing with it at Fast is Spencer Phillips and his number is Mob: +44 (0)7917 602789 or +44 (0)1273 465389