What's the real truth behind Jet Connect?

[max autobrakes]

The following was passed on from a very reliable source alleging that Qantas Management has had this planned for AT LEAST 6 months (JetConnect 800's). The particular source was told by a "company man" 6 MONTHS AGO that JetConnect was indeed getting 737-800's of the new variety, and that they WILL be VH Registered aircraft and crewed by JetConnect with the intention of expanding aggressively and its all tied in with the new government agreement.
This wouldn't be the same Jet Connect that up until very recently whose pilot's had their own wings and did not have "Spirit of Australia" on their aircraft now wear Qantas wings to go with their Qantas uniforms and identical Qantas liveried aircraft now would it? ?It appears that in the eyes of Management there is no differentiation between Jet Connect and Qantas Mainline, only no Qantas pilots to be seen.

It was also alleged that the Qantas Cheif Pilot and the management team all know about this and are trying to keep it as quiet as possible for as long as possible. They also said that the Chief Pilot is prepared for a "WAR" on the issue when it comes to light. He (the informant) said he was "leaking this information" because although a company man, this was outrageous. The particular source is indeed very reliable.

This leads into the "managing the surplus" issue. If in fact management are preparing to fight a Transfer of Business case, the issue that they have not made anyone redundant (because AIPA have helped them out through LWOP and leave, flexi rosters etc etc ) helps their case incredibly. In fact Management have played AIPA perfectly in that they knew AIPA would try to "work with the company".

[CaptCloudbuster]

Interesting post Max. Unfortunately as much as I try to believe and hope we (i.e. AIPA) are being respected the truth is probably "still out there".

Interesting snippet from Team Bazza in insights yesterday:


Career Progression

AIPA has put a proposal to the Company regarding career progression and as yet has not received a reply. It seems these days it is easier for a Qantas pilot to get a job overseas than transfer within the Qantas Group. Surely the money spent on training pilots would not be wasted if pilots were used more effectively and sensible and sustainable career progression was available. I would like to think we will have something concrete to say on this matter shortly.

Surely if we are ignored yet again the penny will drop with our AIPA Exec??

[mohikan]

Max.

You have hit the nail on the head.

By 'recognising' Jetconnect in the last EBA we have given the company carte blanch to unlimited Jetconnect expansion.

I wont even begin to comment on why this occurred, but if we look at the negotiating team, many resurrected from the holt era then you can draw your own conclusions.

The end game is near I think. Squeezed by both JQ and Jetconnect we are looking at massive redundancies, up to 1000 if my numbers are correct.

Dont listen to the wankers at fatties who bang on as if it will all blow over. Time to face reality and plan for your future.

The only problem is that as 'overpaid pollution' I fear the majority of ex-mainliners will not be successful if they apply to any other QF group operator.

Good luck to all

[Chocks Away]

Max, you are dead right.
The same is for V/PB/Poly to VB with their EBA coming...

Sadly the Kiwi wage is on par with the Mexican Peso & Chile Pesos, so now the Tasman market is all "as one"... you can see where the management are going with this... if you can't, "go directly to Gail and do not pass Go" :ugh:

[Coppabella]

Max what are you on????
Next you will be telling us that the JC pilots are on 1/3 the money of Qantas drivers.
JC has been getting 800 for the last twelve months....where have you been???
The jets get delivered to Australia as VH aircraft as they are owned by QF. They then get there ZK rego before being placed on the NZ register.

[distracted cockroach]

And as for Qantas Wings and Qantas Uniforms, I've got some of those upstairs in a cupboard from when Tasman Pacific (nee Ansett NZ) was Qantas NZ. Big deal!

[blow.n.gasket]

I think that was his point distracted.
How many of the Jet Connect pilots have passed Qantas selection, Qantas psych tests, Qantas training, etc.
Claytons Qantas if you like.
Bit like a copy watch really.
Looks the same ,costs a hell of a lot less ,but isn't really the genuine article, and more than likely to breakdown when you really need it because it hasn't been subjected to the same quality control standards. .
If we keep going down this road why does Qantas have to train to jump through more hoops which costs a lot more?
If what the other LCC's are doing is ok by CASA then surely Qantas shouldn't have to be held at a financial disadvantage.
Just look what Qantas Training Captains and Qantas Sim instructers have to go through to qualify. Takes a lot of study, a lot of sim time and costs Qantas a small fortune.
Why aren't the other Australian carriers forced to adopt the same requirements that CASA foists onto Qantas, or for that matter why doesn't CASA allow Qantas to adopt the less costly training practices that are accepted elsewhere?

Ps, This is all starting to smack of the ALEA thread.
It would appear that if a Union in Qantas grows balls to take on and openly oppose the mandated plan then the wrath of god comes down to smite those who dare to challenge.
We saw management were more than happy to blow $130 million of
shareholder value for a pay rise to engineers that would have cost $4 million.
All they did was refuse to work overtime? Go figure.
We've seen with AIPA that if they grow balls all the company stooges come out of the woodwork and the company propaganda machine cranks into overdrive.
When are Qantas pilots going to realise that Qantas management are not their friend. Qantas management want to see the demise of what has been fought for over many years and replace it with a cheap imitation
and to add insult to injury, won't even allow Qantas pilots willing to accept the lower conditions(what has happened to the surplus by the way) to go work for these Qantas owned entities.
Don't want the possibility of pilots forming a bond and realising that the enemy is management not each other I suspect.

[Aim Point]

Which brings us to the point - when are we going to form one united pilot group/association/union to raise the conditions for pilots within Australia/New Zealand??????
As Blow N implies it should be Pilots vs Management/Accountants NOT Pilots vs Pilots.
We have been played off against each other for too long now. Instead of fighting amongst ourselves and letting our egos run rampant arguing who is a better pilot and who is not, and who is worth more and who is not, and who is wrong and who is right, we need to realise we all do a very similar job and should all benefit from similar work conditions - lets make sure they suitable and the best we can negotiate.
Currently its pilots from VB vs Poly vs PB vs QF Long vs QF Short vs JC vs JS vs JS NZ vs NJ vs Tiger vs Skywest vs Anyone else I have left out and any future newcomers!
We need to form one association for pilots, much like medical practioners have the AMA, and until this happens we will all keep getting shafted!!!!

We need a Trans-tasman or at least a National amalgamation for PILOTS.

I'm now waiting for someone to call me an idealist.:ugh:

[blow.n.gasket]

Hear hear Aim Point.
My point exactly.

[CaptainSouth]

Not disagreeing with any of the above posts, but I do have a question for the above posters...how much will it cost to retrench all of us??
I understand we have certain rights under industrial relations law, so we all really believe QF will wear the cost of retrenching 1000 pilots as mentioned above?
Discuss:rolleyes:

[aerostatic]

The Jetconnect horse bolted years ago. As above - 737-800s no secret, and will not be VH registered.

Agree inter-union cooperation is the way forward. It is not possible to have a single union representing pilots in different countries due to legal reasons. Most of the unions are already members of IFALPA so there is a starting point. A QF group opportunity list should be one of the end goals for all pilots within the group. Work together not againts each other.

[who_cares]

I heard that the FOQA alerts are the lowest within the Q group.

Maybe the training they are getting is far superior then that of mainlines?

[max autobrakes]

Who_Cares what are the alert parameters set to ?


Sorry Coppabella it wasn't clear in my original post but the present angst in the Qantas ranks isn't the fact that Jetconnect are getting 737-800's but the rumour that there is to be a massive expansion to the Jetconnect operation ,obviously to the detriment of mainline.



Direct Anywhere, why are training captains in Qantas even contemplating training their replacements?
I heard through the grape vine that the Jetstar trainers took a moral stand and refused to train their cheaper replacements in NZ.

[Keg]

max, talking to a bloke I know in J* I'm not sure that latter statement is correct. Further as a trainer I don't think you get a say (let alone the chance to take a 'moral stand') on you train.

[SkyScanner]

Keg, max is spot on, at least 2 jetstar trainers have resigned their checking post. It was also posted in an insights article a few weeks ago.

[Keg]

Fair enough. Now I get the 'moral stand' bit. Those guys are no longer C&T. Good on them for making that stand although it probably robs the training department of a couple of good operators by the sounds of things. I wonder what type of people will replace them?!?! :eek:

[chards]

That's gold- JQ pilot's taking a stand on someone else lowering the bar on conditions!

[Transition Layer]

Apparently quite a few B737 Trainers with QF have also resigned from the position as they refuse to train Jet Connect pilots. Good on them! :ok:

[brassed]

some guys at JQ have taken a stand and refused to train, but there are many with significant previous form ready and willing to 'help' out. and as a reward, check b a-palooza and back to melbourne.

What hope has the industry got when guys take a stand and others quite happily feather their own nest.

It might be 20 years since that event, but the motive is just the same.

[Gingerbread]

All the talk about AIPA launching a Transmission of Business action is laughable. Any such case would run smack bang into the same road block BALPA ran into when it attempted to use UK law to stop BA's European based expansion.

Aussie transmission of business (Fair Work) legislation simply can't constrain off shoring and/or globalisation.

However, AeroStatic’s view on: IFALPA...is a starting point and a QF group opportunity list one of the end goals... Offers realistic hope.

The GOAL needs to be kicked sometime soon, as piloting jobs with 'Qantas Mainline' are in decline, along with the fabled White Rat, which will increasingly become an A380 Protected Species seen only on LA & London runs. :{

[blow.n.gasket]

As a mate of mine on AIPA said, the A380 and those lucky enough to be on it when the music stops will become the "A scale" in Qantas and everyone else ???????

Funny how a number of the present AIPA exec are A380 Captains.
I'm sure they will show some moral fibre and not feather their own nest.
Just don't mention EBA8 nor the Qantas Sale Act case I've been told.:uhoh:

[kimir]

Referring to Blow.n.gaskets previous post. Blow is an appropriate name. Sounds like your on it. Are you serious? Qantas tests etc, N.A.S.A. psych tests would be a lot more thorough than the Q's and one of their mob went bonkers a few years back. Mainline have had their share of stuffups in the past too, rwy overruns etc. I suspect if Q mainline is like many airlines around the world it has a varying range of standards and experience. Some pilots within your ranks better than others. I suspect some individuals hide behind the "process" because they are insecure or to cover for a lack of ability. Then again I'm not a psychologist.

[Keg]

That's the point that blown is making though. QF pilots have to jump through a bunch of hoops that others don't and at the end of it we're supposedly no better than anyone else. Those hoops ostensibly serve no purpose. They add considerably to the cost of being a QF pilot for (supposedly) no added benefit.

The point is that QF on the one hand seem to think those hoops are necessary but don't make others within the group jump through them. It's an inconsistent stance that benefits those who undercut the jobs.

As to standards, hard for any line driver to comment intelligently- from any airline. There are only 3-4 people I suspect that would have the real picture across the Jetconnet, Jetstar and mainline operation. Sadly I don't see Roly and a couple of the others posting on PPRUNE. A chat with them can be informative though.

longjohn, I'm sure QF would love to take the 45 year old former EK 777 driver for a command slot on less pay than they're looking at having to pay the 37 year old F/O who has been with QF for 13 years who is now about to upgrade. I'm sure the 45 year old former EK 777 driver can't possibly fathom why the scenario above strikes of extreme self interest (the same self interest as those who have been in QF for 13 years and are close to command no doubt but at least one has shown continued loyalty to the carrier) and further enforces the 'race for the bottom' that permit carriers like Jetconnect, J* NZ, Pac Blue, to a lesser degree J* Oz and DJ to continue to pay poor terms and conditions.

What is disappointing too is that I recall a longjohn who once asked when the race to the bottom would cease but your comments now indicate that you're quite happy to continue running that very same race. You've changed man! (said in my best hippy voice). :}

[sfoxs]

"That's gold- JQ pilot's taking a stand on someone else lowering the bar on conditions"

Perfect could not have said that better myself.

And.........." leaked information on jetconnect" where have you been for 7 years!!

A rumour I have heard from one of my relaible sources is that Jetconnect get their ZK-800s for 18 months, sort out the teething problems and then flick them back to the superior, better trained mainline pilots so they can fly trouble free aircraft. Jetconnect get a brand new one and sort out the problems for them again. Hope our training is up to it!!

[rescue 1]

I think Posters are reading too much into the Jetconnect circus.

Now that Jetstar NZ are in the play at a cheaper cost base, coupled with Mr Joyce indicating more cuts, I can see the Jetstar NZ guys flying the Tasman and Jetconnect being folded. The Jetconnect scale is not there to deliver any benefit to QF - other than the strategic "race to the bottom" which is also obsolete as that mantra is now carried by Jetstar NZ!! :ugh:

It wouldn't take much for our AIPA leaders to show sound financial cost comparisons and re-gain that flying - at least for the short term.

[tjc]

teething problems

?

On a 800

?

[Reeltime]

You can hear the bleating in the sandpit from Oz, from all the expat pilots when anyone dares join their airline as a DEC. "How dare anyone take 'my command!' "

But now when the '45 yr old ex 777 captain' wants to come home, it's ok to come back as a DEC and give all us poor locals the benefit of all his experience.

Could there be a touch of hypocrisy here?

[neville_nobody]

How were QF proposing that QF check captains actually legally check a NZ endorsed/licensed pilot? Wouldn't you have to be licensed and checked by the NZ CAA before doing that? Or does the Trans Tasman agreement mean that checking roles are interchangeable regardless of the issuing authority.

[blow.n.gasket]

Looks like Keg is one of the few who passed reading comprehension.
Kimir and Longjohn go and read Kegs post again.
That's the whole point. Qantas Mainline keeps getting thrown in their face by management that they are not cost competitive , yet there is a whole plethora of added costs lumped on Mainline pilots that are of Managements doing that the pilots have little or no control over, yet Mainline pilots are expected to keep giving things up and going above and beyond to keep the show on the road ,in order to stay in the race, yet management don't or can't seem to change things that they control such as over training which is expensive ,cutting overall staffing levels per aircraft across the entire company to sensible levels etc. Why is that? AIPA and Qantas pilots continually rally to the cause yet it appears more and more to be Management who can never stick to a deal and keep their end of the bargain up.
That is the huge bugbear of many Qantas pilots at present, the unscrupulous Management types that have to be dealt with .
It would appear to be a prerequisite that in order to join the exalted ranks of Qantas management one must have a Moral Compass that needs degaussing in a serious way.

PS: sfoxs I seem to recall there was a post somewhere here referring to the fact that all this jetconnect thing that has blown up isn't the impending implementation of the -800's but rather a lot of internal Qantas discussion about massive expansion of Jetconnect.

[Richard C. Normous]

I love working for JetConnect; it means that I'll get to fly a B787 way before any QF mainline pilot does :D

[Capt Kremin]

It would appear that you have aptly named yourself.

[horserun]

I hear a few of the surplus mainline guys are coming to NZ to fly for Jetconnect.......hows that going to go down???

[GADRIVR]

I'm thinking that when Qantas sends managment types to LA (last week) to learn how to do the ramp work and so on as they are expecting a "****fight that will make 89 look like a couple of girlies arguing" somethings smelly.
This is fact....I was talking to one of them the other day.
They didn't want to send these people to Melb or Sydney due to "it might give them (I'm thinking them is the drivers!)an inkling of whats about to happen"
Same managment type went on to wax lyrical how QF drivers are overpaid, shouldn't have access to business class when repositioning, should not have taxi picking them up etc etc etc ad nauseum.!!!

Funny how the same individual was then heard boasting about how she went first class!!!
Amazing what one hears at mothers groups!!!!:ugh:

[mohikan]

GADRIVR.

She has no problem boasting about this because she believes she is 'worth it' whereas the pilots do less then nothing for their money.

In her mind, the fact that the 'QANTAS group' has been able to hire people without a HSC, who cant pass psychometric testing, who don't cost anything to train, who have failed (in some cases on multiple occasions) to find employment with any other major airline AND then these people have not crashed an aircraft means that the model of pilot standards as previously understood is an unnecessary waste of money.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding by nearly all airline management in this country as to what it takes to get the job and what it takes to do the job.

This is reinforced by forums such as these where abuse, the inability to debate rationally, the inability to string basic forms of grammar together and the continual publicly stated desire to undercut anyone earning more money is repeatedly expressed. You can see her point.

No wonder hardly anyone bothered to fill out the engagement survey. Its probably just as well. I dont think senior management would have read any of it anyhow.

[Transition Layer]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what do management types in LA doing "ramp work" (i.e. strike breaking) have to do with mainline pilot pay and conditions?

[Dr_Clowneus]

Mohikan, I'm really hoping you are not suggesting that that QF testing gets the best of the best!
I know you where told that when you started by the management baffoons that have risen from their cadet beginings.

Jet Connect, Jetstar, Cobham a little help from Alliance. . . . who needs Qantas anyway!! :ok:

[Capt Kremin]

I know you where old that when you started by the management baffoons that have risen from their cadet beginnings.


Let me guess, failed the QF basic English exam?

[porch monkey]

Priceless!!

[QFinsider]

Jetconnect is the next instalment of the J* experiment..see how far pilots will undercut to fly the next plane...

Who is next Qlink?
Sadly for Q management they dont realise there actually is a shortage..say at least 8000 in China with commuting contracts a reality from Aus, it is a very shortlived model..Candidly Q management due the industrial advice they get usually ignore competitor behaviour and indeed pilot behaviour...Oldmeadow is too old...:E

[Keith Myath]

longjohn
QF pilots strict adherence to seniority, flying in the face of reason and common business sense is the reason that the group are able to play pilots against each other - pure and simple. So long as QF pilots value a 22 year old cadet more than a 45 year old former 777 Captain, purely based on joining date then this problem will haunt them.


Keg

What is disappointing too is that I recall a longjohn who once asked when the race to the bottom would cease but your comments now indicate that you're quite happy to continue running that very same race.



Past perusal of previous posts would give a strong indication that longjohn is ex AN, ex QF and now JQ. I would hazard a guess that he has benefited by subverting seniority at JQ to now hold a command (or using to the full extent the very loose seniority provisions in the Jetstar EBA). What's that old saying about self interest?

[rockarpee]

Quote "Jet Connect, Jetstar, Cobham a little help from Alliance. . . . who needs Qantas anyway"

I do:mad:

[framer]

Some people on here crack me up with their "high horse" attitudes.
There are good pilots and not so good pilots everywhere. Qantas isn't filled with superior pilots but they do have a culture of sticking fairly rigidly to SOPS and taking their training seriously. In my opinion thats the biggest decider on an airlines safety. I've flown with mainline guys, jetconnect guys, jetstar guys, Air NZ guys, military guys, there were top notch pilots and average pilots in all five groups. If one thing did stand out about the mainline guys (personal opinion only obviously) it's that I think the authority gradient in the flight-deck was perhaps a tad steeper than the others. Whether thats a good thing or bad thing depends on the situation I guess.
QF pilots have to jump through a bunch of hoops that others don't and at the end of it we're supposedly no better than anyone else.
Correct. You've just jumped through more hoops than everyone else because thats what your company requires of you. I think though that the ongoing training at mainline(I'm thinking classroom stuff) results in the mainline guys probably being a bit more current with emergency proceedures than others which has gotta be a good thing.
Framer

[Normasars]

QF INSIDER,

QLINk is next, you can bet your @rse on that. And what is wrong with it by the way?
Where were you/AIPA and your cronies when SAA was dissolved. Where were the same usual suspects when QF bought out Impulse and the whole thing with JQ kicked off.

This has been done to death before I know, but Mainline has never given a toss about anybody but themselves until now. Why? Well you know the answer to that. You don't need me or anyone else to explain the answer to you.

As mentioned here in another thread, QLINK have signed off on a Narrow Body jet clause in their last EBA. There will be a need for a 90-120 seat a/c in the full service sector and you can bet your bottom dollar it won't be Mainline crewing it.

The really sad thing in all of this is that "The Company" has played us all like a fiddle. We should have learnt from history and past mistakes but we are all just too dumb. The "I'm alright Jack" mentality that exists here in OZ has fukced us all forever.

[vigi-one]

Norm

You are correct Regional jets within a couple years with QLink management having already been assessing the C Series. However i suspect that Q management will take the opportunity to screw everyone flying a red tail aircraft. The RJ's will take flying away from the 737's and these pilots will be told they can fly the rj's but at regional wages as there will be no work otherwise for them , remember QLINK is only a marketing Company with associated "contractors". EEA and SSA will remain turbo prop drivers. Cobham may get the C series to replace 717's also but at SSA/EEA wages.

Meanwhile JStar continues to grow as QANTAS Shrinks.

[Mstr Caution]

QLINk is next, you can bet your @rse on that.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't QFlink the first to start on the undercutting?

Early 1996, those at Southern undercut Eastern Airlines pilots on the pay rates to fly the BAE 146.

Southern then operated the BAE146 from Oct 96 thru Oct 06 before the aircraft were then transferred to National jet.

Looking after ones owns self interests has never been a quality unique to mainline.

MC

[Keg]

This has been done to death before I know, but Mainline has never given a toss about anybody but themselves until now.

If you know that this has been done to death before, I don't see how you can possibly hold to your statement about not giving a toss about anybody about themselves 'until now'. A group opportunity list (that includes regional drivers) has been part of AIPAs push for four years. Some AIPA members have been arguing for that concept (publicly as well as privately) for far longer than five years.

Still, you keep telling yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to maintain the rage against the mainline drivers. :ugh:

[QFinsider]

Good on you Norm,

I wasn't any part of Qantas and certainly not a cronie, so give me a break on the vitriol..

Keep the fires burning as people like you with that attitude make Oldmeadow's job oh so easy..

[Tankengine]

Forgetting the usual "nyah-nyah" vitriol for a moment;:rolleyes:

I would like to see a cost comparison of the current/proposed entire Jetconnect operation compared to closing it down and mainline flying across the Tasman as it used to,

With AOC and all the management costs of a separate company I would be suprised if Mainline were not cheaper!:ugh:

[slice]

Vigi-one, it is the SSA EBA that now has Regional Jet pay scales in it. Something similar to VB E-jet rates if I remember correctly. I suspect that the current Cobham contract won't be continued after its current term.

[downwind]

Just a question,

How many times a year would a Jetconnect, qantas mainline and express freighter australia pilot/s go and do training in the 737 simulator??? just curious. Is the airline/s standards higher than the CASA CAR 217 and the NZ caa equivelant check/training needs/requirements??