Brave and intelligent Police deal with spotter in discrete and sensible way....er NOT

[Skipness One Echo]

Innocent trainspotter suspected of being a terrorist by police after taking photos of trains near oil refinery | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208784/Innocent-trainspotter-suspected-terrorist-police-taking-photos-trains-near-oil-refinery.html)

Train spotting but have had a similar experience when being interrogated by the local plods at certain airports. It's depressingly predictable that our own people are now so igonorant.

[Avitor]

The government have passed anti terror laws. I suppose it is all about how they are implimented.

[Dop]

Another example of the police overstepping their own rules, and the continuing persecution of innocent photographers. Still, it's easier than going after actual criminals, isn't it?

Amateur Photographer (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Photographers_and_police_Government_issues_guidance_news_288 196.html): The new guidelines also tell police that sections 43 and 44 of the Terrorism Act do not prohibit the taking of photographs, film or digital images in an authorised area, and that members of the public and the press should not be prevented from doing so.
It states that police stop and search powers should be used 'proportionately and not specifically target photographers'.

Not A Crime (http://www.not-a-crime.com/): Police routinely invoke anti-terror legislation to prevent photographers from carrying out their work, and photojournalists are constantly filmed at public gatherings and their details kept on an ever-growing database. Tourists, particularly foreign tourists, are also targeted by police, as was the case with an Austrian father and son recently who made the mistake of photographing a building of an extremely sensitive nature—Walthamstow bus station.
Put simply, Britain has become a no-photo zone, and so if you fail to comply, you may find yourself liable to attack, arrest or harassment. Recognising that Britain is not the only country where such a draconian anti-photographer culture is developing, the British Journal of Photography is beginning an international visual campaign to raise awareness.


I'm a photographer, not a terrorist (http://photographernotaterrorist.org/): Photography is under attack. Across the country it that seems anyone with a camera is being targeted as a potential terrorist, whether amateur or professional, whether landscape, architectural or street photographer.


Home Office Circular (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/publications/home-office-circulars/circulars-2009/012-2009/): mportant: Section 44 does not prohibit the taking of photographs, film or digital images in an authorised area and members of the public and the press should not be prevented from doing so in exercise of the powers conferred by section 44.
...
Officers do not have the power to delete images or destroy film.

Oh, and just to further illustrate hypocrisy... Police Officer caught taking pictures (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Police_officer_caught_taking_pictures_news_287791.html).

[Gulf4uk]

hi

Add to the no no taking here .

Taking Pictures where children are also seems to be on the HIT list even
if they are yours You may get arrested i know of one person who was in
a crowd of people taking pictures from the crowd area of an Airshow
plod arrested him and marched him away for possible taking pictures
of children . At any show or on the beach or any crowd this over reaction
seems to be growing. simple Fix Get a bigger lens and stand at least a mile
from anywhere where any human being or Alien might be

Tony

[Avman]

Quite simply, PARANOIA! The terrorists are winning their campaign of intimidation thanks to the morons who inhabit this planet.

[CHINOOKER]

This scenario is getting all too familiar nowadays with the Police attitude to anyone with cameras etc,getting a bit OTT. Some months back,i was with two mates on the south side of the A40 at the end of R25 at Northolt,photographing the USAF C17s departing that had accompanied Obama's visit. Just as the first one had taken off we noticed a police car zooming westbound in the fast lane,with the copper in the pax seat giving us the eyeball....about two minutes later the same vehicle passed us by eastbound in the fast lane,(all lights/sirens blazing),with now both occupants giving us the eyeball....about a minute later,they had returned westbound and had pulled up alongside us and began to question why we were there,and why we were interested in photographing the "bomber plane",(i kid you not!),that had departed as they first went by. After some discussion, during which we showed them the images we had,(and pointed out that what they thought were bombs,were actually the C17s engines),we were politely told to move on and not return to this position....if we did we would be arrested under said anti-terrorism laws. Not wishing to cause ourselves any problems,we walked off toward the slip road to Hillingdon,then turned into the field and sat there,totally unhindered for the rest of the day
Sadly,nowadays there doesn't seem to be much that this idiotic law doesn't include,wether it be buildings/trains/planes/people etc!......If you photograph soldiers on ceremonial duties,(changing of the guard/trooping the colour etc),you can fall foul of this law!. Being a nation where we pride ourselves on both history and ceremony i beg to wonder what impact a "heavy handed" approach in implementing this law may have to future tourism!!...only time will tell. :ugh:

[Gulf4uk]

As already said on earlier thread plod has now introduced ID schemes
at various Airfields with all your details although i have never been
asked for mine Here at FAB but loads have .

On A similer thing carrying your UK Driving licience or birth certificate
maynot be enough . I Was asked for my Passport when trying to collect a package but as i told the person i dont have or need one .
NO PASSPORT NO PACKAGE.
Showing my licience and birth certificate NO . showed also the much
requested UTILITY BILLS no way NO PASSPORT Cannot deal with you.

Tony

[Skipness One Echo]

In all honesty the Police often come across as hopeless troop of big thickos, unable to comprehend the powers they are given and work within the sensible guidelines which DO exist. There used to be honest and on the spot policing around airports where the airport police knew the faces of the local spotters and where they went. Now we just tend to see PC Rambo in his 4x4.

Nowadays they have all sorts of local ID card schemes which any terrorist can join and the point of which escapes me as they are not recognised outside of that airfield.

A meaningless exercise in "security theatre" where someone is seen to be "doing something".
I despair sometimes at how we are sleepwalking into a CCTV / Police state. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[simonchowder]

TBH i think they have very good reason to regard any adult who spends his leisure time on a draughty platform or rain lashed airport car park roof jotting down reg numbers from aeroplanes or locomotives with great suspicion.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Best to remember, when dealing with the Police, that most of them are quite dense.

If you bear this in mind during any encounter, it'll make their actions easier to understand.

[Ian Brooks]

Like anyone going to a football match or hitting a ball with a stick in a large field
I suppose the best idea is for us to sit at home with our computers when we can be
tracked as what we are looking at by the government
Very very sad really anyway better get back to collecting my copies of Beano NOT


Ian B

[Gulf4uk]

where ever you are whatever you are doing BIG BROTHER is watching
so give him a wave and sod em all . Each to there own Am in my shed
big pair of bins watching all that flies by .

tony

[JEM60]

In a slight defence of the Police, firstly I think you will find that the entry examination rules out 'thicko's', and, secondly, when you are driving past in a Police car, how do you determine whether the spotter is a terrorist, or just a spotter. Remember that it IS their job to be suspicious, and, from their point of view, how do you know the spotter is not a terrorist in disguise obtaining information. Look at the problem from both sides, not just ours. Terrorists do obtain information from observing near airports, and, whether the Police do it well or not, they are looking after your and the country's interest, so not too much knocking of them. It seems to me that they are damned if they check you, and damned for not doing their job if they don't, and something results from their lack of action.
I have no connection with the Police incidentally I am just an Aviation person.

[JEM60]

Perhaps those who arte critical of the Police action re aircraft would do well to read the 'Threat to Shuttleworth Aircraft]' in Aviation History and Nostalgia on this site. There are some strange people around, so be tolerant.!!

[Gulf4uk]

It would not be so bad if the police were consistant in what they
do .I fully assist the police as we all should if requested but its
never the same ideas or reasons they seem to stop you For
If somone makes a complaint or suggests something suspicious
they must Attend but then use there common sense when they
do and not go blundering on when its easy to see nothing is
amiss at shows and on beaches airports most people carry
and use a camera its not easy or polite to tell everyone to get
out of the Way or dont Move incase there little child gets
in the Shot All we ask is use common sense Both ways
Us and them.

TONY

[donnlass]

Unless you are a Google Street photography car then you can take pics anywhere!!:}:}

[donnlass]

Talking of paranoia. Wanted to take a pic of the Ryanair plane we had just flown in on to Dublin. When we asked permission you would think we had asked to shoot it or something.

They were down on us very sharpish and if the camera had worked they would have taken it off us for sure.:\:\

[PaperTiger]

how do you determine whether the spotter is a terrorist, or just a spotter?Common sense and experience; both in very short supply among police forces. Hint: someone standing in plain sight with a bl..dy great lens is most unlikely to be a terrorist and even more unikely to shoot down that plane with his camera. :ugh:

Is bjcc still with us ?

[Avman]

JEM60, I agree with what you say re the police side of things, and I have no problems whatsoever if police want to check me out. Having done so, I expect to be allowed to continue with my activities (as long as they are legal and carried out from an unrestricted public area). The problem comes when the odd bored cop wants to play silly buggers and tries to move you along for no valid reason. Thankfully, they are a minority, but it can be frustrating.

[Gulf4uk]

someone standing in plain sight with a bl..dy great lens is most unlikely to be a terrorist and even more unikely to shoot down that plane with his camera
=========================================================

Well explain why a fisherman fishing in the canal near the perimeter was searched his kit searched Rod bags emptied and checked .
Given reason his rod bag could contain a SAM .

Tony

[Skyfan]

Gun , digital comms, advanced body armour, helmet cam, implacable attitude. Hhhm, where have I seen that before....

[Gulf4uk]

Come back BATMAN all is forgiven

[Skipness One Echo]

when you are driving past in a Police car, how do you determine whether the spotter is a terrorist, or just a spotter. Remember that it IS their job to be suspicious, and, from their point of view, how do you know the spotter is not a terrorist in disguise obtaining information.

That ought to be easy to answer. Engage them in polite conversation and see if in your "judgement" they appear well informed and genuine. Otherwise detain them for further enquiries. Police have little discretion or common sense these days. As to the entrance exam, I know a few cops and tbh, it's not much of an exam. I pleaded with one of mates not to go into the force as he was unaware they lack any officer class, lo and behold, he's bored beyond belief. Bullying spotters is the high point of a dull day for certain officers.

Best example is London City. I counted three armed Police GLOWERING at people last time I was in the very small terminal. Two at the top of the stairs and one at the door, the one at the door had THREE PCSOs who were unconsciously mimicking the macho pose clutching their stab vests at the shoulders with their beady eyes peering out from their caps as their noses were so high in the air. It was like Mr MacKay from Porridge.....pure comedy gold on one level. I don't deny the importance of the task, I seriously question the abilities and judgement of some of the people we are giving a uniform to.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

JEM60

Did you say the police exam rules out thickos?



hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

You obviously don't know many.:p

[JEM60]

BBFRIEND. Well, perhaps you have reason to know more Police than I do. Certainly the ones I have met in East Anglia are well spoken, polite, and efficient. I saw the entrance exam some forty years ago, so perhaps it's changed somewhat. Important not to tar every officer with the same brush perhaps??????
Someone was trying to make the point that if you are carrying a large lens, then you couldn't be mistaken for a terrorist, but, of course, if you were a terrorist trying to obtain info, you wouldn't go around an airport perimeter dressed in a burkha or a habib now, would you???

[FRED WHELAN]

All Police forces in the UK have been for some time now been either trained or made aware of 'Hostile reconnaissance'. A part of this progress is to watch for persons photographing & videoing certain locations, and I am afraid that airports & airfields are right up there at the top of the list along with Government buildings, shopping malls, main line train & tube stations.
Remember this, it is not how but when will the next atrocity take place, because this green & pleasant land will always be a target. And trust me I have been involved in one of the worst.
So get used to being asked by people in authority what you are doing and if you answer back politely you will get treated the same in return.

[Planemike]

So get used to being asked by people in authority what you are doing and if you answer back politely you will get treated the same in return.

Big Brother (no not that one !!!!)........or what? If we are not breaking any law why do we have to explain ourselves to anyone? Wonder if you would have proffered the same advice to the people of the German Democratic Republic as they were "fingered" by the STASSI.....?

Planemike

[FRED WHELAN]

Planemike

The next time you are at an airport take a look at around, could you spot a potential terrorist, or are all asian males suspect. I think not. It has to be done by a process of elimination and spotting 'hostile reconnaissance' is just one way of doing it.
Who would have thought that Richard Reid (the shoe bomber) would have tried to do what he did but someone paying attention caught him out.
The attack on Glasgow Airport by, of all people Doctors, must have had a trial run and reconnaissance carried out before the attack.
Richard Copeland who carried out the nail bombing on the Pub in Old Compton Street was a white British male, but that Pub could easily have been the terminal building at Gatwick or Heathrow.
All I am saying is everybody needs to get used to the authorities asking what they are doing at certain times & locations. You are never going to stop it.

[stepwilk]

I suppose you could say they dealt with the spotter in a "discrete" way--a specific and singular way--but I think what was actually meant was a discreet way.

I'm used to this on U. S. sites and blogs but surprised to see that Mother Tongue speakers are getting just as careless...

[Planemike]

All I am saying is everybody needs to get used to the authorities asking what they are doing at certain times & locations. You are never going to stop it.

Sadly I fear you may be right. Not enough people seem to be prepared to stand up and say..........."Enough is enough".

Planemike

[Skipness One Echo]

Remember this, it is not how but when will the next atrocity take place, because this green & pleasant land will always be a target. And trust me I have been involved in one of the worst.
Believe me, getting out of Afghanistan and Iraq will lessen tensions. The current paranoia has been more damaging to our way of life than the deaths themsleves. It has made a potential terrorist of every one of us in the eyes of the powers that be. The Captain of your aircraft cannot be trusted to take a 150ml pot of yoghurt through security but Plod can take his assault weapon through with impunity? Don't make me laugh.

Richard Ried incidentally was a nutter and was causing concern as soon as the doors were closed. There is NOT a wide conspiracy of British born white European Islamic killers at work out there.

My real concern is the inablilty of the Police to use common sense. They now come across as just box ticking social workers in dayglo yellow or gun/tazer packing rambo types. Something has gone wrong somewhere. Even back home in Scotland, they're just men in black combat uniforms ( and blackshirts !!!! history anyone ? ) that never fail to intimidate.

Richard Copeland who carried out the nail bombing on the Pub in Old Compton Street was a white British male, but that Pub could easily have been the terminal building at Gatwick or Heathrow.
All I am saying is everybody needs to get used to the authorities asking what they are doing at certain times & locations. You are never going to stop it.
Think this through. I have to explain to the state what I am doing in a public place because someone they don't know, might be going to commit an atrocity. Hence more and more people find themsleves being questioned as potential mass murderers?
Option a) Planespotter
Option b) Mass murderer

Do we go Israeli and introduce bag searches at the entrance to Tesco?
Given that in a free society, there IS no way to prevent this sort of "potential attack", what's the result?
Loads of PCSOs and a few token Police raking through your possesions at certain places designated under Section 44, not to prevent an atrocity, but to be seen to be doing something. Should a PCSO open my bag and find a bomb, we're all gonna die regardless. It's security theatre, the real work is done by MI5 / MI6 behind the scenes and out of sight. The men in dayglo Poice uniforms are just part of the pantomime that is security theatre.

Finally, the added danger is that once these people have purpose and budget and we give up hard won freedoms, there is little mechanism for scaling back on security as "you never know" or "just in case" mainly becasue politicians are too scared in case someon points the finger in the remote chance something does happen.

[Planemike]

Skipness.........thank you for the breath of "common sense".

We should be very wary of giving up our hard won freedoms.

Planemike

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<So get used to being asked by people in authority what you are doing and if you answer back politely you will get treated the same in return. >>

My wife and I were extremely polite to the Police Officer who questioned us about looking at aircraft at an airport from a public road and he was polite too. It transpired that he knew an acquaintance of ours who was also a Police Officer and we chatted amiably for a good while. However, it didn't stop him from searching our car and issuing us with a notice stating that we had been searched. We wonder if that is on our "record" and whether it would raise any problems if we ever went into the USA?

He also told us that it was easier for him to achieve his "targets" by questioning the spotters rather than becoming involved in problems at a nearby shopping mall.

[PaperTiger]

He also told us that it was easier for him to achieve his "targets" by questioning the spotters rather than becoming involved in problems at a nearby shopping mall.Bingo !

And while the intrepid officers are busy questioning the blindingly obvious and highly-visible spotters etc., the putative terrorists are doing their 'hostile reconaissance' quietly and unnoticed by all; aforesaid intrepid officers included.

[FRED WHELAN]

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

Can you PM me please.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Fred Whelan.. I PMd you yesterday with my email address but have heard nothing. Why don't you PM me with whatever it is you want?

[FRED WHELAN]

Sorry for delay, IT probs.
Done

[Snaga II]

It is a sad fact that some of these aircraft " enthusiasts " do bring problems upon themselves, sometimes going where they shouldn't just to get a " better picture " to show off on some aviation website. When Obama visited London some of these very clever prople were able to demonstrate and openly publish their ability to track Airforce One across the Atlantic giving precise info on location ETA and flightpath etc. Your average terrorist would have had all the info to carry out an attack on Airforce One with great ease methinks.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Snaga II I agree with you, but they would not be able to do it if the regulations relating to the use of the radio spectrum were properly policed - and in the UK they are not. Anyone can buy equipment to receive aircraft radio and radar transmissions even though the use of such equipment is illegal!

[Avman]

Snaga II, I think you'll find that Air Force One has some pretty smart defence systems.

HD, what do you propose? Police to make regular house to house searches? Ban the sale of such equipment in the UK? Fine, they'll go and buy them in the USA (and elsewhere). And do you really believe that terrorist plans will rely on spotters' information? I think not.

The reality is that preventing enthusiasts from using said equipment will not improve security against terrorism one iota. Total waste of time and just about as effective as the latest 'booze asbos'.

[Snaga II]

I'm not saying ban the radios but I am suggesting a more sensible and realistic usage of the same. By watching the websites I know when BOnes, B2's and U2's etc will arrive at Fairford so yes any terrorist can assimilate any kind of sensitive info from these people who are just showing off to their " virtual " mates!. As for Airforce One. agreed but why should they have to use them?.

[Gulf4uk]

Policing the airways thats a laugh in its self .

1 The movements of our royal family and i suspect government officals
with there destinations is published Daily in newspapers and on line
And news bullitins carry there arrival and departure often live with
destination safe is that ?

2 i watched AIRFORCE 1 Depart LIVE on www on american TV Who
gave out it destination and arrival times Your average thicko could
work the route i expect.

3 TV Licencing in uk They cannot catch all the licience dodgers
they get a few so how then UNLICIENCED radios ?

4 policing the Airways pirate stations exist still today on FM
HAM Radio has its own share of Squekees music players etc.
they catch a few .

5 CB Radio is now legal in UK No licience .when it first came out it
was on AM Thousands of US Made sets came in openly sold eventully
we got a LEGAL Service they tried to catch people Very few were
caught .
So you start confiscating AIRBAND Radios well you can try but it isnt
going to work or the staff to do it .what would it gain are you saying
the airband user is responsible for terrrorist actions research and the
like I am pretty sure that those people are more likely to avoid that
sort of thing altogether to avoid suspicion but of course its all our fault

6 Get better and more Intelligence is the answer not excuses terrorists
will always try to find a way . stopping your average plane spotter and
other hobbyists is not the answer JUST ANOTHER EXCUSE

TONY

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Girls

I am an RJ85/ 100 Captain.

If I should be so deranged as to want a picture of a plane landing at LCY and a cop tells me 'no!', I shall tell him to f@ck off. (although, no doubt, I'll be more restrained in my use of language)

I suggest you do the same.

They are our servants, not the other way 'round.;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BarbiesBoyFriend. You didn't used to fly for BOAC by any chance?

There are some things which are legal and others which are not. Taking a piccy at LCY does not, so far as I am aware, break the law. Various other activities do break the law and you would be well-advised NOT to tell a police officer where to go if there is a chance that you have done so...

Don't forget - when the police officer flies on holiday you and your colleagues are his servant! I have never looked upon any human being as my "servant". We're all equal in my book and each and every one is probably doing his/her best to feed his family. Best to remember that, eh??

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

HD

I DO remember it.

The question is, do they?

I've heard first hand of fellow workers' family being told to delete perfectly legally taken pix at LCY.

Like I say, if asked to delete my pix, there will come the answer, 'No'.

I guess we'll take it from there.:rolleyes: