Citation Mustang Wheels-Up Closes Cambridge

[Cusco]

Mustang doing base-check apparently landed wheels up at Cambridge at approx 4pm today, closing airport and causing cancellation of training flights from nearby airports.

Anybody got any further details: No injuries apparently except perhaps pride.

Cusco.

[Agaricus bisporus]

No injuries apparently except perhaps pride

The implication being that it wasn't intentional?

That being so I'd respectfully suggest that there is a great deal more than mere pride at stake, a very great deal more...

[Cusco]

The implication being that it wasn't intentional?

That being so I'd respectfully suggest that there is a great deal more than mere pride at stake, a very great deal more...

No implications: just a statement of fact and a request for further info.....

Cusco

[Gertrude the Wombat]

closing airport
Really? 05/23 grass also closed? If so why? - was the wreckage spread all over the airfield? And where did all the students who were in the air land?

(I always brief my passengers when I take them for joy rides that we might not get back into Cambridge if someone prangs an aircraft and closes the airport, but I didn't really ever expect it to happen, with a choice of several runways available.)

[goatface]

Gertude,

its standard procedure to close the airport at a licensed airfield until such time that:

1. The airport fire service and other departments required have dealt with the incident and are fully available to other users, i.e foam tenders are fully replenished and other service vehicles are back to full strength.

2. It can be ascertained, as you so glibly put, that any other surfaces are fully fit for purpose.

3. The aircraft involved in any incident does not pose a threat as an obstruction to anyone else.

I always brief my passengers when I take them for joy rides that we might not get back into Cambridge if someone prangs an aircraft and closes the airport, but I didn't really ever expect it to happen, with a choice of several runways available.)
Not exactly the most inspiring statement I've ever seen.:rolleyes::rolleyes::ugh:
I am afraid that says more about you than I ever could, what did you excpect to happen? The tooth fairy to make all the nasty things to go away?

If you don't make contingencies for the unexpected then you shouldn't be flying.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

its standard procedure to close the airport at a licensed airfield until such time that...
Ah right, so that's closed for some tens of minutes whilst the situation is secured, then, not for hours until the dead aircraft is removed. Fair enough. So returning students etc have the option of just flying round in circles for a while.
If you don't make contingencies for the unexpected then you shouldn't be flying.
Eh?? Where d'you get that from?? Try re-reading - you will see that I precisely do make contingencies for the unexpected - the briefing I mentioned includes explaining to the rear seat passenger how to open my bag and extract the Pooley's in case Cambridge is closed and we need to land elsewhere.

There are lots of nasty things that I don't expect to happen, but I plan for them all the same, as trained, as any pilot does.

[Cusco]

Really? 05/23 grass also closed? If so why? - was the wreckage spread all over the airfield? And where did all the students who were in the air land?


Dearest Gertrude:

While I was waiting at the hold at EGTC for my airways clearance for an IFR flight to EGSC I was told by ATC that Cambridge was closed and I wasn't going anywhere.

Simples.

When I drove past Marshalls some 2 hours later there was no immediate sign of a dead Mustang.

Tooth fairy at work I guess.


Cusco

[Newforest2]

Just wonder what your heart beat goes up to when you realize.................

[Pace]

Just wonder what your heart beat goes up to when you realize.................

Only ever did it once in a piston twin. Making an approach in low cloud and poor vis to a small airfield. I had my eyes glued for the runway. The aircraft ran back into scud cloud so told the man in the right seat I was going around.

Just as I said that lo and behold there were the numbers poking out of the goom.

Grabbed landing flaps keeping my eyes glued on the runway, started to flair just as I glanced down. Shock Horror NO GREENS.

Full power pulled the nose up as the ugly truth dawned and I waited for the props to strike, climbed away immense relief. Props must have been a foot above the runway at one point.

Having said going around in this single pilot aircraft and my eyes glued to the gloom outside the man in the right seat had retracted the undercarriage trying to be Oh so helpful and forgot to tell me :D

When I think how close that was to a gear up it makes me shudder.

It all very well with bells and whistles which pilots ignore or dont take in but you would have thought with technology a voice command "Gear Gear Gear" would be far more appropriate in all retractables not the few!!!

It can happen to you no matter how careful you think you are in the right circumstances or should I say wrong circumstances the dreaded gear up can jump up and bite.

Pace

[No RYR for me]

What was the tail?

[remoak]

The bit attached to the end of the fuselage?

[JW00467]

It always suprises me how pushy aircraft can be after their has been an incident at an airfield. Controller workload is almost trebled at times of incident even when it appears there is no immediate talking on the RT. Therfore after an incident ATC have to wait for replenishment of crash CAT and of course there is the issue of controller breaks before they are fit to undertake their job again not to mention internal investigation to into what happened.

Yes Cambridge has grass runways available, but if there is no crash CAT they can not be used. Therefore the number of runways at the airfield is not relevant.

Controllers dont like to refuse traffic, after all they are doing the job to provide a service. Most I know prefer to be busy rather than not. However, it would be nice for aircraft to work with Air Traffic control, and not get upset or pushy when they are told something is not available. Dont forget, Controllers have to look at the whole picture, where as some pilots seem to be only aware of their immediate environment.

[Daifly]

To get back onto the original topic though, whose aircraft was it?

[Jaydee27]

Second hand information, but...I believe it was the first aircraft being delivered to a fledgling air taxi operator, based at Cambridge and doing a couple of circuits with the new owners and delivery pilot onboard.

ATC called gear at last moment and aircraft went around, but still contacted runway with flaps. Proceded to make a normal landing and currently quarantined awaiting further investigation

A very very near miss.

[robbreid]

That would be unconfirmed; however Saxonair Charter Mustang 510-157 G-KNLW just recently delivered.

[silverknapper]

Aren't Ambeo the new start Mustang outfit based at CBG now?

[robbreid]

Which Mustang does Ambeo operate? G-FLBK?

[Nashers]

G-FLBK is a Blink aircraft... the reg itself should give that away.

Ambeo are the only operators that are suppose to fly them from Cambridge. the only other two companies that fly mustangs in the UK, are in other airports. unless that has changed its got to be ambeo.

not a good start if its their first delivery.

[x933]

Had a look in CFMU on Friday. PH-TXI was the only mustang operating through EGSC, went in but didn't come back out. No aircraft registered to Ambeo yet, so would recon that's your suspect.

I Wasn't there though and will bow to superior knowledge.

[pilotbear]

Isn't Ambeos first aircraft coming from Holland?

[robbreid]

UK Register - I was aware G-FLBK was operated by Blink, however the owner is registered owner is TAG and of the 13 UK registered Mustangs, it is the only one that says 'Potential ownership change in progress'. Which is why I asked.

However PH-TXI make sense now, I assume it would have to be transferred to the UK register before it could actually fly charter for hire flights?

If any one has any photos, or further information on damage to the aircraft, it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm a private pilot based out of Buttonville Airport near Toronto - we currently have 7 Mustangs on the Canadian registry - so far they are a rare visitor at CYKZ!

[Nashers]

thats intresting. Blink have picked up all their aircrafts this year and have many more firm orders on the way. i dont understand why they would be selling already... from what i understand they are doing extreamly well already and have made a strong brand name for themselves.

i would have thought it was ambeos aircraft as one of the first posts said something about base checks being done at the time.

[robbreid]

Click here ] (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=cessna%20510) UK Register of Mustangs

It clearly is not a Blink aircraft. As x933 suggested, the most likely involved aircraft is a Dutch registered Mustang ex- of Bikkair, which appears to be in service with Ambeo PLC.

As for Blink, you can check the ownerships on the above link.

[x933]

The change of ownership would be commensurate with the granting of their own AOC rather than piggybacking off TAG's, which I know was in the offing. Don't know if it's been granted yet though.

[pilotbear]

thanks pilotlady:ok:

[robbreid]

Thank you pilotlady21

A friend just emailed me to comment the Mustang has a UK registration pending of G-OAMB of Ambeo PLC.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Are these the guys who were charging hundreds of pounds for an interview and wanted experienced pilots to pay to use their MCC simulator during the interview process to ensure they got the most very bestest pilots who were the pinnacle of their profession.....?

[IT Pro]

Does the Mustang not have a gear warning?

Belt and braces always helps!

[pilotbear]

Yes - ATC:ugh:

[Jaydee27]

As well as a gear warning horn (the Horn Silence button is clearly visible on the Cessna website), do these aircraft not have EGPWS with the full range of "Too Low, Gear" and "Too Low, Flaps" warnings?

Aircraft was doing base check (circuits) with a TRE/TRI onboard. Current rumour at Cambridge is that the Gear Horn CB is pulled...

[theWings]

Why would they pay me £250 for my Inital Selection?? Very odd!! :confused: ;) :confused:

[x933]

Initial Selection - £250.00
Occupational Personality Questionnaire Evaluation - £250.00
Formal interview - £100.00
Pre-Type Rating training - £2,600.00

Wheels up landing on base check - Priceless :E

[doubleu-anker]

If it was on a training flight, apart from the initial type circuits, then it serves them jolly well right.

I maybe out of touch but I am under the impression, all training and checking should be in the simulator at an approved training institute, eg Flight safety or CAE etc. To me checking (including the circuits) on the aircraft is outdated, false economy and should be relegated to the scrapheap.

If it is the same outfit that charges for interviews etc., then it could not have happened to nicer people, IMHO.

[bayete]

Is this a case of 'Pay peanuts get monkeys'?
In fact it is worse, you are trying to recruit experienced guys/girls to your outfit and expect them to pay for the priviledge of being interviewed and assessed.
Which monkey is going to pay for his peanuts? Only the desperate with nowhere else to go will apply.
In fact this is happening more and more with pilots having to pay for their own ratings, uniform, recurrent etc.
I get the impression these days that the job of a pilot is seen as very easy, any kid who can hold a Playstation paddle can do it, ATC is excellent, computers do the planning, ops schedule your flights and after all modern aircraft can practically land themselves......so why pay money for good experienced pilots?..........
The first time management realise their mistake is when they see a smoking hole on Sky News with the company logo on the tail sticking out of it.
or
Someone does a wheels up landing on a routine training sortie?

Good pilots already have jobs or will be able to pick and choose, so if companies want them, they have to be willing to pay for them.

Too often HR and the bean counters are winning this battle and this results in the overall degredation of T&Cs and a lowering of basic pay scales.

I am told we are already getting to a point where for young wannabes the cost of training is outweighing the pros of the pilot lifestyle. And the cycle will return with a shortage of pilots and low paying companies haemorrhaging pilots looking to greener fields.

[hollingworthp]

I maybe out of touch but I am under the impression, all training and checking should be in the simulator at an approved training institute, eg Flight safety or CAE etc. To me checking (including the circuits) on the aircraft is outdated, false economy and should be relegated to the scrapheap.

I bumped into a couple of their pilots at FlightSafety back in April.

[pilotbear]

For people who are 'out of touch'; To validate a JAA type rating you need (depending on your hours) 4 or 6 actual take off and landings with a JAA TRE. It has been like that for many years.
The FAA will accept the level D sim which IMHO is not good because no simulator represents the landing of the aircraft correctly (especially the EMB 145/Legacy).
Don't know what happened at Cambridge or why but obviously it shouldn't have.
:ok:

[Sepp]

My outfit once rented a (small) ship to a TRE who wanted to renew/reval his qual - and I went along for the ride. After several VERY low approaches
w/out gear one of them oop front turned round and shouted "Hey, the GPWS isn't working".

"Maybe coz it isn't fitted?", was the sotto reply.

I still wonder how they managed to complete a pre-flight GPWS check, that might have convinced them that it *would* be...

[pilotbear]

The Mustang does not have EGPWS

[Jaydee27]

It does have a gear horn though, which can't be cancelled provded you have full flap set...

Can somebody confirm that you need to perform 4/6 landings or is it acceptable just to fly the approaches to a low go-around?

[pilotbear]

4 or 6 Landings

[ahramin]

The Mustang has TAWS, which is another name for EGPWS.

[Sultan Ismail]

I have it on good authority the go-around followed a prolonged takeoff balanced on the tailskid (over rotation bumper)which eventually wore out doing considerable damage to the tail end of the aircraft.

The appointment of the examiner/trainer in question proved the "Peanut Principle" mentioned in an earlier post.

[pilotbear]

Thats co-incidence, I did the same but in person:E

[hawker750]

Aheamin
The Mustang has TAWS, which is another name for EGPWS.

Not quite, all EGPWS installations qualify to be called TAWS, but not all TAWS installations qualify to be classified as true EGPWS. It is dependant on whether the TAWS installation is TAWS A or B

[doubleu-anker]

Hello Pilot

"The FAA will accept the level D sim which IMHO is not good because no simulator represents the landing of the aircraft correctly"

Perhaps you are correct.

I would like to point out however, especially with aircraft with RA audio call outs, you should, as a Captain be able to close the throttles at say 5 feet. If you do nothing else from that point on until touch down, the landing should be reasonable, provided the basic techniques are there.

I think the FAA have it right in this case. Aircraft and personal are too valuable to be monkeying around, training. That is what the simulator is designed for and is a far better and safer training tool.

[Miles Magister]

H750

I believe the difference between EGPWS and TAWS is that Honeywell took out a patent on the phrases GPWS and EGPWS so every other manufacturer has to call theirs TAWS A or B.

I htink the same goes for TCAS and ACAS. TCAS being Honeywell's patented name.

Regards
MM

[pilotbear]

Hi Double U,
Perhaps but;
If a new FO perhaps on the first flight has an 'incapacitated' captain and has NEVER landed a swept wing jet there is the potential for trouble, or the same situation where someone is moving from one jet to another where one requires a positive push to lower the nose from one that required a hold off etc.:E
PB

[forget]

MM I believe the difference between EGPWS and TAWS is that Honeywell took out a patent on the phrases GPWS and EGPWS so every other manufacturer has to call theirs TAWS A or B. I think the same goes for TCAS and ACAS. TCAS being Honeywell's patented name.

You can't patent a 'name', copyright perhaps. Anyway -

From a Honeywell Manual.

This manual applies to systems which are compliant to RTCA DO185A MOPS Change 7.0 and RTCA “DO- 185” MOPS Change 6.04a. These systems are referred to as TCAS II (Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System) in the United States and ACAS II (Airborne Collision Avoidance System) internationally. The terminology is used interchangeably and, for the purpose of discussion, TCAS II will be the terminology used in this manual.

[robbreid]

AAIB report released;

Click Here. (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Cessna%20Citation%20Mustang,%20PH-TXI%2001-10.pdf)

[Spunky Monkey]

Makes very interesting reading.
If the flap hinges were damaged, is that why the flaps were not retracted? As they were fouled, or was it because the commander failed to raise them?

Whichever it was, this was probably very lucky. At low speed, low height and then a differential flap retraction or the loss of a flap would have caused a far worse outcome.

"Landing Checklist Please"
"Enie, Meenie, Minie, Mo - Landing Gear - Down you go!"

[learjet50]

2 Crew 2 Passengers on a Training Flight ???

I did not think youwere allowed Pax on a Training Flight (Never used to be) or maybe it all changed now @@@@

Regards


Gezza

[silverknapper]

Perhaps there were two other crew members also training sitting down the back but classed as pax as not operating?
Not pretty reading, I suspect there is more to read between the lines, it is a very simple statement of fact style report.

[Paradise Lost]

Is the captain still a captain?
He's certainly still a plonker!

[belowradar]

If it going to happen then circuit bash is the most likely place to see it especially on a dual training /check flight.

On a normal flight there is a sequence of events that are well drilled and expected

On a circuit session there are many traffic, atc and flight distractions which provide a greater opportunity for gear up landing.

Bad luck !:{