Royal Navy J31's

[rigpiggy]

Does anybody have any info on the J31's paid off by the RN recently

[Hardly Worth it]

They are stored in a hangar at RAF Cranwell..... Just for your info they weren't paid off by the Navy ! You have to look at a lighter shade of blue for the answer ! :ugh:

[Spurlash2]

...didn't the light blue do a very similar deed to the RN Chipmunks in the 80's?(poss early 90's). Said they were being withdrawn from service, and after the RN gave them up, the RAF then carried on operating their own for a few more years, anyway.

[Hardly Worth it]

wouldn't have surprised me .....

[Gainesy]

Why stored? Are they not being put on the market? If not, why were they withdrawn? Thought they were a pretty useful asset.

[Yeoman_dai]

Wait..

how are they training observers now then? Or is that done on a different type?

[Evalu8ter]

Observer training will be done by King Airs, though I think those Jet Streams are in service for a while yet.

The ex-Heron Flight Jet Streams are nearly worthless on the Civil market as they do not have civvy certification and IIRC the part numbers are different to civvy ac too so they cannot be broken and sold for spares. Only hope would be a foreign military, but with the whole world turning to King Airs I'd suggest that it's pretty unlikely.

The scuttle over their withdrawl is that the former CAS didn't take kindly to being ferried around in an ac that said "Royal Navy" on it and engineered the flight's demise....

[Union Jack]

The scuttle over their withdrawal is that the former CAS didn't take kindly to being ferried around in an ac that said "Royal Navy" on it and engineered the flight's demise....

He couldn't possibly have been so petty .....could he?

Jack

PS Just recalled that petty is derived from French "petit" meaning small so could be appropriate in at least one sense!:)

[foxvc10]

If anyone has a right hand windscreen available, for a non-flyer, a college in the south of England is looking for one. (plus some other bits)

[Yeoman_dai]

Well that would fit with the whole 'One Nation One Airforce' line he had been pedalling... after disembarking from a RN aircraft he'd look a bit daft...


I'm pretty sure that's just a malicious rumour though, surely?

[Evalu8ter]

..this is a rumour site....

[Yeoman_dai]

Point taken :}

[Hardly Worth it]

it's not a malicious rumour .......

[Squirrel 41]

At the risk of starting a rumour that the RAF is not seeking the demise of the RN on a ceremonial funeral pyre of HMS Victory (this is a rumour site after all....), I'd heard that the loss of Heron Flt was an RN decision, in the same way that the creation of JFH and the binning of the Sea Jet was an (undoubtedly painful) RN decision that the RN then sought to pin on the dastardly RAF - can't have it both ways, fellas... :=

In short, if the RN desperately wanted to retain the Sea Jet or Heron Flt then they could've done: but at the expense of something else they valued more.

(Besides, doesn't the Senior Service realise that the RAF High Command is far too disorganised to run something as complex as this sort of plan?!? :E )

S41

[Union Jack]

Besides, doesn't the Senior Service realise that the RAF High Command is far too disorganised to run something as complex as this sort of plan?!? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Ah, now you're talking!:)

Jack

[althenick]

Taken from the RN Website...

750 Squadron conducts flying training in the Jetstream T Mark 2, a radar equipped version of the civilian Series 200 Jetstream. The aircraft is powered by two Turbomeca Astazou 16D turbo-prop engines, giving a maximum speed of 214 knots at sea level and a service ceiling of 25,000 feet. The minimum crew is one pilot and an observer, but there is a third crew seat in the cockpit and two radar/navigation consoles on the right hand side of the cabin from where the students conduct most of their training. Three additional seats are also available, giving the aircraft a normal passenger capacity of six. Combined with the aircraft's four hour endurance and 1000 mile range, this makes it a useful personnel carrier and the Squadron is often tasked in this role.

Since all these Jetstreams have a capable surface Radar (Same as the Sea king I think) then could these Aircraft not be deployed to take some of the SAR duties that the MR2 currently has? Ok, i would think some some Mods such as losing one of the Nav Consoles and also a method of deploying Life saving equipment would have to be figured out but there going to be available soon and it may relieve the Nimrods of precious flying hours.

Just a thought

Al

[Adam Nams]

then could these Aircraft not be deployed to take some of the SAR duties

Like these ones? (http://www.gfs.gov.hk/eng/aircraft.htm)

But I have heard that the J41s (and presumably the 31s) are not being made any more, so spares may be a bit hard to find in the coming years.

[pr00ne]

althenick,

Seeing as how they are about to be replaced at Culdrose by 4 contractor owned King Airs, I suggest that the scrap yard is the only place "ALL" these Jetstreams are destined for.

[tucumseh]

I assume that it is designed for the purpose rather than a stone age weather radar from the 18th century which is almost completely unsuitable for a SAR role

That made me laugh Tourist. Not quite 18 century but I think this year is the 50th birthday of the radar. Still EW190 I take it? Must be one of the oldest pieces of kit in service.

I remember it was important that the 9 RPGT Indicators had Mod 21 embodied, which removed the fan, as 9 going at one time was deafening. Removal was possible because the original germanium transistors were upgraded to silicon. THAT says it all about the radar's vintage. I seem to recall the RPGT was to be extended; an extra 4 student and 2 instructor consoles. ISD was meant to be over 20 years ago. Don't know if it happened.

The 16 Mk2s were to have been upgraded with ASR360 radar, which was specified for the Mk3. But, that was spectacularly unsuccessful and the retrofit was cancelled, leading to the Mk3s becoming Admirals' Barges. The knock-on effect upset the RAF who had to retain the EW190/290 series as well. At one point a 2 Star blotted his copybook by visiting Emerson Radar in the US and saying "I want that (colour/processed) radar". This constituted a verbal contract which was just a little embarrassing.

[althenick]

Someone makes a seemingly knowledgable statement about something which in fact they have no knowledge about without making a qualifying statement such as:-
"I have never seen the Jetstream radar and have absolutely no knowledge about it, but I assume that it is designed for the purpose rather than a stone age weather radar from the 18th century which is almost completely unsuitable for a SAR role"
for example...........

Tourist,

Like some on this forum I am a aviation Idiot. I do not pretend to know anything of any meaningfull depth upon the subject and I do bow to your infinitely supeior knowledge. And for this reason i'm sorry that I seemed to have caused you to spit your dummy out.
As for never seeing a Jetstream - Wrong! Ive not only seen one but damn near crashed at GLW on landing in one from Kirkwall.


As for the radar...

I was led to beleive by a Pilot (Ok not FAA - but he told me he was a pilot -many times over in fact) that the Jetstream had a Sea King Radar in it which I took to be of the MK6 variety and therefore I thought it may be of some use.

As for your comment about the Jetstream being unsuitable for the SAR Role - See Adam Nams post.

[mad_jock]

Wrong! Ive not only seen one but damn near crashed at GLW on landing in one from Kirkwall.

I think you will find it was a perfectly normal landing for a Jetstream. You think you have the old girl sussed and then she bites you good and proper. ;)
Usually in the most pleasant of wx. 50knts on the nose 30knt xwind on the western Isles in the slashing rain and she will grease on when you want to put her down firm.

Does anyone know of a contact for the disposal of the engineering infra structure ie hydralic service pump, towbars etc.

[tucumseh]

Althenick

I was led to believe by a Pilot (Ok not FAA - but he told me he was a pilot -many times over in fact) that the Jetstream had a Sea King Radar in it which I took to be of the MK6 variety and therefore I thought it may be of some use.


I don’t know if the Mk2 was eventually upgraded, but Tourist’s post implies the Mk2 was/is still fitted with EW190, a.k.a. EKCO Weather Radar, MEL E190 which is a cloud and clunk beast. It was also fitted, among others, to Andover, Dominie, VC10, Nimrod AEW, Andover Calibration Sqn; and to commercial airliners. (British Caledonian were a major user).

The High Power version of this (EW290) was/is fitted to Nimrod MR1, Hercules and others. Many of the LRUs are common between variants, the main difference being the higher power Transmitter/Receiver.

The link to Sea King is that the Intellectual Property Rights were acquired from EKCO (whose factory was in Southend) by what was MEL (Mullard) in Crawley, who became part of the Philips empire and, in turn, Thorn Radar, Racal Radar and Thales.

The Sea King radars you speak of were MEL products, based on RSRE specifications (that is, if MEL flogged them to anyone else, which they did, we got a cut); whereas the EW series was wholly proprietary, which makes them a very lucrative bread and butter product over the years. However, the first SK version (Lightweight Helicopter Radar, fitted to RN ASW Mk1/2) had much commonality at component level with the EW series, which puts your friend on the right track.

The RAF then fitted this to their SAR Mk3 and, when they required a weather mode, some features of the EW series were incorporated in the LWR design. This programme was cancelled at the production stage, but a handful of weather mode radars were converted.


The RN "replaced" LWR with Sea Searcher, in the Mk5. The obvious difference is the larger, flat topped dorsal radome. But SS retained components of LWR (and, hence, EW) mainly in the display sub-system. SS development was cut short by a year when the Falklands War broke out, so for some years after that what was in-service didn’t align with the spec or pubs, lacking some key features like TWS and sonics interfacing.

When the RAF MK3As were built, they surprisingly specified a hybrid of the old LWR and the newer Super Searcher, a development of SS. In short, lovely processed, colour display, but sod all targets and huge blind arc due to the old low power Tx/Rx and smaller scanner. Nobody knows why, as they were offered, free of charge, the RN’s surplus Tx/Rx etc (as the RN had chopped the Mk6 fleet numbers). The RAF also inherited the RN’s stock of LWR when SS was introduced.

Hope that little potted history explains the links. You weren’t too far away (and I’ve probably got some aspects wrong). EW190 wasn't fitted to SK, but in a design sense is part of the same family of radars.

[Fast Pussy]

Why does the Navy not leave the flying to professionals, and stick to messing about in boats? :confused:

[Tourist]

Fast Pussy.

There are people who are good at banter and fishing.

They are funny, entertaining and witty, bringing a welcome break from an often dry forum.

Please be aware that you are not one of these people.

Seriously.

Not even a tiny bit.

[BEagle]

That POS known as the Jetstream was the most unpleasant aeroplane I've ever flown. Poor control harmonisation, terrible engines (in the RAF's T Mk 1) and every method of generating electricity bar the Van de Graff generator or the Whimshurst machine.

If Pusser wants to continue flying those ba$tard things, the very best of luck.

Because the T Mk 1 had such large props for its size, the slightest change in power caused pitch, roll and yaw transients. Which the autopilot could probably cope with, if it wasn't so useless.

My rule on the thing was never to close the noise levers fully until the wretched thing was on the ground. That at least meant you didn't fall out of the sky in an uncontrolled rolling motion when one of those joke French engines idled before the other.

Sodding horrible thing, the Jetstream T Mk 1. I hated all 15 hours I had to fly on it.

[Hardly Worth it]

The thread was originally about the J31's (T3's) which didn't have any radar fitted and had Garratt engines installed and not the joke French engines !

:ok:

[BEagle]

Blond genug!

[Farfrompuken]

BEags,

fully with you on that one. The T1 was a total shed to fly. Thank god they're not still in the RAF's charge anymore.

Not flown the King Air but at least it LOOKS like it can do a half-decent job of being an aeroplane!

[Fast Pussy]

Tourist

Banter??

Who says it was banter??

I was being serious.

As to fishing - if that appeals more than messing about in boats, then that is fine by me!

[BEagle]

Ignoring the prattle from the childish boat person, as Farfrompuken has confirmed, the Jetstream T Mk 1 was an utter abortion to fly.

In fact ETPS conducted a preview on it and suggested that the C-130 would make an ideal lead-in trainer for the Jetstream T Mk 1.