Hand Flying

[Mr Optimistic]

If the crew decided to switch off a/p and a/t to get a bit of manual flying practice in a 777 or 330 or similar, would I , as a passenger notice ? If so, would I really notice ?

[Final 3 Greens]

Depends how good their handling skills were.

[L337]

I would hope not.

[G SXTY]

In a word, no.

[potkettleblack]

The vast majority of landings are manual so you can pretty much answer the question yourself. Autolands (AP and A/T left in) are generally only performed in low visibility conditions or when the crew are required to undertake them for currency reasons or training.

When you turn the "automatics" off is really down to company policy and personal preference. In a busy place like LHR you might leave them in a bit longer and let the autopilot establish the aircraft on the localiser and glideslope and let the A/T take care of the speed control that ATC will require until 4 miles out. Thereafter it will more than likely be turned off. At quiet airports the crews might well elect to disconnect earlier or even take a visual approach and self position.

[Capot]

One could usually tell when a Gulf Air L1011 was landed manually; the whole airframe rattled and there was usually a crash from the galley area.

[Mr Optimistic]

Thanks & will stay away from Gulf Air ! It's just that on another thread there was a discussion and in it someone said CC enquired why flight was rougher than usual (maybe could also explain the occasional seat belts on warning (joke)).

[Capot]

Thanks & will stay away from Gulf Air
Good Lord, no need for that; that was Tristar days in the '70s!

I'm sure that GF pilots land like butterflies now. And I'm sure that the aircraft they now fly are fastened together less loosely.

"A lot of components travelling in formation" was one description.

[Mr Optimistic]

don't worry, was only joking. There is a serial advocate of the L1011 somewhere on these forums so can expect a call.

[Globaliser]

The vast majority of landings are manual so you can pretty much answer the question yourself.Always quite fun to try to detect during approach the point at which the autopilot's been disconnected. Easier if you can see the ailerons.

[anotherglassofwine]

"Easier if you can see the ailerons. "

Globaliser - just curious, why is this?
Often tried to figure this out myself but not sure if I would notice on the heavy metal..

[G-BPED]

Always quite fun to try to detect during approach the point at which the autopilot's been disconnected. Easier if you can see the ailerons.


If you are in or close to the front rows on a Airbus 319/20/21 the tell tale "Chirp" "Chirp" "Chirp" coming from the flight deck area is a good clue.

I generally find that coming into LHR with BA that this normally happens about 30 seconds before touchdown. I would expect that other factors could influence the timing of the A/P disconnect but, the above is just my experiences.

Regards,

G-BPED

[Rodger Ramjet]

When are a/p and a/t *generally* switched off during a normal approach?

If making an ILS approach, is the ILS captured manually or automatically? In my toy plane, there's an APR hold button that's supposed to fly down the approach on automation. I guess it depends on weather, ATC, equipment, yada, yada.

Any plane drivers on here?

Thanks.

[bucket_and_spade]

The localiser can be intercepted manually or automatically!

In my ride there's a LOC button - pressing it arms the localiser mode of the flight director/autopilot and, as long as you've set the aircraft up in a viable position to intercept, it'll do a lovely job. The APP button will track both the localiser and glideslope so, when combined with the autothrottle controlling the speed (set by the pilot), a fully automatic ILS approach and landing can be flown.

I like to hand-fly (I'm a pilot after all!) when I can (and it's appropriate) - in reality, this usually means hand-flyng the departure (still with a flight director giving cues though) until, say, 10,000 feet and hand-flying for the latter stages of deceleration/flap extension to landing. I've got rid of the flight director and autothrottle in the cruise, just prior to descent in to the London TMA and flown raw data but it's not the norm and would get some captains twitching with unease! Some captains I fly with like the automatics put in very early and taken out very late but they are usually few and far between. There are times and places to hand-fly to be fair though.

B&S

[bucket_and_spade]

RR,

P.S. Like you suggest, to fly an automatic approach to landing requires an aircraft certified to do it, a crew certified to do it and LVPs (Low Visibility Procedures) in force by ATC - this last one will ensure the localiser/glideslope signals are more protected than usual i.e. less prone to interference from, for example, aircraft parked too close to the runway. The weather also needs to be considered - most aircraft have lower wind limits for an autoland than for a manual landing e.g. in my type the aircraft is certified to autoland in up to 25 knots of crosswind (there are also head- and tail-wind limits) but we can manually land it in crosswinds up to 33 knots.

B&S

[G SXTY]

From my ops manual:

"The aircraft is designed to be flown with the AP, this is the normal method of operation. The SOP is that once the aircraft has passed 1000ft aal and flap has been selected to zero, the autopilot is to be selected. However, hand flying is permitted, with and without the FD, so that skills can be maintained. Use of the autopilot dramatically reduces flight crew workload because it frees valuable capacity for management and monitoring."

Hand flying is good fun, and certainly necessary every now and then to maintain basic flying skills. But the comment about flight crew workload is very true, and I tend to pick my moments carefully. I'll happily hand fly a SID or approach where it's quiet, but wouldn't choose to do it in the London area, where there are constant heading, altitude and frequency changes, and PNF's workload goes through the roof if PF is 'heads down', hand flying the beast.

[SNS3Guppy]

Personally, I generally hand fly most approaches by preference and for proficiency, and only perform autopilot flown approaches to maintain proficiency in using the autopilot.

[NudgingSteel]

As a tower ATCO it's quite common to hear, in the background of the landing clearance readback, the autopilot disconnect alarm. Would any pilots care to confirm that landing clearance is often the point at which the a/p is disconnected for the manual landing? Or have I just been imagining things?!

[piton]

Nudging Steel - yes that is quite often the case at busier airports - once you know you won't need to do a go-around due to traffic on the rwy etc.

The OP seemed more to be asking about cruise flight I thought and yes you probably would notice as at altitude big jets are a bit finicky. I am only familiar with 737s up to -800 series and if the autopilot is unservicable we are not actually allowed to fly higher than 24,000 feet or longer than a 3 hour stretch. Plus I think you may only operate to a repair station. (don't have a MEL/DDP handy so off the top of my head).

Normal levels for us are 37,000 to 41,000 and we can do up to 5 and a half to 6 hr stretches. So it would be quite limiting - not to mention the extra fuel used at low altitudes.

But as other posters have said flying up to or from 10,000 feet is reasonably common - to keep skills honed - but again preferably not in busy airspace as the non flying pilot then has more work to do if you are concentrating on manual skills.

[Hansard]

Nothing like a 777 or 330 but on my turboprop, I often hand fly the whole flight, including instrument approaches into large airports.

[Nicholas49]

This thread has provided an opportunity to ask a question that's bothered me for a while:

1) when you intercept the ILS using the autopilot in a real aircraft, do you have to be descending at the same rate as the glideslope to prevent the lurch downwards that often occurs when selecting APP in a certain Microsoft programme?

2) similarly, can the autopilot turn the aircraft to intercept the localiser accurately without the over-correction that happens in flight simulator?

(Please forgive the comparison - it's the only reference I have!)

Nick

[SNS3Guppy]

1) when you intercept the ILS using the autopilot in a real aircraft, do you have to be descending at the same rate as the glideslope to prevent the lurch downwards that often occurs when selecting APP in a certain Microsoft programme?

2) similarly, can the autopilot turn the aircraft to intercept the localiser accurately without the over-correction that happens in flight simulator?


I don't know anything about microsoft flight simulator, but if the autopilot is flown properly and the airplane is properly configured and prepared for the approach, then the transition should be very smooth. The airplane needs to be configured and on speed, and if the autopilot is engaged, the transition to glideslope capture is often seamless.

If the aircraft is equipped with autothrottle, the pilot needs to ensure that the proper localizer intercept angle is made (too much angle and too much speed leads to an overshoot or a rapid turn, or flying through the localizer), then simply arm the autopilot. If everything is done properly, the aircraft will intercept the localizer, fly to the glideslope intercept point, and reduce power when the glideslope captures. All the pilot need to is lower the landing gear at that stage and apply the final flap setting, if appropriate.

There should be no jerking, or overshooting, if everything is done properly.

[RingwaySam]

Nick, have you tried the PMDG aircraft. Although I'd imagine they don't fly exactly like the real thing they don't lurch downwards on the ILS and maintain 3 degrees nose up and a steady -700ft/m to -800ft/m

[Mr Optimistic]

Taken from another thread re airbus bemoaning degradation of manual flying skills.

I'm sure the passengers notice the difference with the automatics off, and some regular flyers will start questioning why things aren't as smooth as they normally are.

Pilots could be rostered for an hours manual flying in the sim once a month, but that would cost money..........http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif