RAF Training Aircraft Research

[aviationresearch]

Hi everyone.

I'm conducting research for a client about RAF training aircraft since WWII for a literary project and we're trying to verify a previous report about an RAF dominie being flown by a navigator after an incident.

Obviously I'm sure that some of you won't want to mention names but I'm really just looking for contacts to chat through the story - it'll make a nice anecdote for one of the chapters.

Any info at all is most gratefully appreciated.

John

[Pontius Navigator]

John, I have not heard of that however the Dominie carries only one pilot. the right-hand seat is occupied by a pilot-assistant. This is necessary as a pilot in the left-hand seat cannot look into a right-hand turn.

The PA was either a u/t AEOp or the 2nd Navigator student. Depending upon the experience of the student, and the willingness of both student and pilot, it is possible that the student may have had some hands-on time.

Furthermore many nav students were chopped pilots and thus probably quite capable of flying an undemanding profile. Good luck.

[aviationresearch]

Hello Pontius,

Thank you for your reply, but I don't think this was a student. I believe the aircraft landed at either Durham-Tees or Newcastle?

JG

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

Furthermore many nav students were chopped pilots and thus probably quite capable of flying an undemanding profile

Well if they could fly an undemanding profile then they wouldn't be chopped pilots.:ok: Would you like to supersize that order?;)

[The B Word]

Mate

See the following:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/226981-retitled-well-done.html

Write to OC 55 Sqn at RAF Cranwell for more detail.

[taxydual]

Mid '70's (75/76'ish), I know of one 6FTS Dominie that had to divert into Nice on it's RTB to Finningley ex weekend stop in Luqa (When we had Malta as an overseas posting). The HP had an extreme case of delhi belly (and I do mean extreme). The aircraft was landed at Nice by the Pilots Assistant who was a MAEOp.

The aircraft landed safely, but I believe the HP was hospitalised for quite a while.

[aviationresearch]

Thanks B-Word ... I've already written to 55 Sqn but no reply as yet (so I thought I'd try here).

I must say that everyone seems rather guarded and secretive about something that probably should have something of a 'good news' story?!


John

[minigundiplomat]

I've seen pilots help the nav out with the navigation, but cant recall seeing a navigator help the pilot out with the flying.

They are good at helping the crew dispose of any food though.

[4Greens]

As an historical note the original Dominie, as still used by the RN in the early sixties only had room for a pilot. It was essentially a twin engined Tiger Moth. Did five hours in it myself-no dual. Couldnt resist the thread creep.

[kitwe]

During my time on the staff at Finningley ('89-92), the Dominie PAs were drawn from the instructional staff of Nav School and AEELS. We had to pass a PA's course, run, if I remember correctly, by Standards Sqn. Each PA was re-examined at least annually and he had to demonstrate that he was capable of landing the aircraft after the pilot had been "incapacitated". This sometimes resulted in some "interesting" arrivals.

[Lima Juliet]

Aviation Research

Stick with the reply - I know OC 55 has just taken his Summer leave recently.

I remember a Nav landing a F3 at Coningsby when the Pilot pulled his man-sep handle by accident and ended up halfway up the rail of the bangseat - he couldn't reach the controls. The aircraft was a twin-sticker and the Nav could see enough around the Pilot and his partially deployed seat to land it safely. The Navs started getting a bit more "hands on" from their front seat buddies after that - just in case!

The Dominie incident that you are looking for will be best told officially by 55 Sqn. Suffice to say, the Pilot's Assistant (PA) that occupied the Right Hand Seat performed the duty that they were trained to do in the first place - still a great job though.:ok:

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

During my time on the staff at Finningley ('89-92), the Dominie PAs were drawn from the instructional staff of Nav School and AEELS.

Kitwe, I was there '87-'91 on BNTS and the PA was invariably an AEOps/AEng. On some sorties the stude 2nd nav flew in the right hand seat, can't remember if it was from take-off but I suspect it was an airborne shuffle.

I think if was only LLTS navs that flew as PAs not least because they often had FJ stick practice.

[kitwe]

PN - In my time, I flew around 250 hours as a PA (not a lot, I admit). I was a Nav sqn cdr, not a LLTS nav and you are wrong to say that only LLTS navs flew as PAs. I often flew with BNTS students. The PA normally (there were exceptions, particularly with Air Eng students) occupied the RHS for take-off and landing and, if the sortie content dictated, he would hand over to a student Nav, AEOp or Eng for the major part of the trip.

[escapee]

I have recent experience as a PA on the Dom, flew approx 1200hrs about 800 as PA.
PAs do a course with a QFI, normally 2 PAs at a time taking it in turns to occupy the seat. If I remember rightly they get about 7 dedicated sorties each. Having qualified as 'proficient' they maintain currency by doing an instrument approach and landing with a 'training Captain' (pilots who are former QFIs but not necessarily on the Dom). Every 6mths PAs do a check ride with a Dominie QFI which involves recoveries from unusual attitudes and low level pullups along with approaches various.
PA is always in the seat for take off and landing these days though in the past an Eng stude would occupy for whole sortie and advanced phase studes could remain in the seat for landing. If a stude is to occupy the RHS they do so after the en-route checks normally or when the Capt is happy.
Yes it was good fun and yes I was always hoping the pilot would have a funny turn in a non life/career threatening way! :ok: