Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing [Archive] - Page 2

Bush Boss

24th Aug 2009, 22:15

Although I think RHS time is very valuable training when a young pilot first gets to PNG (great to learn the ropes from an old hand who has been there done that) I cant help but feel that you dont fully complete the learning process until you are PIC and have to make the big WX calls all by yourself with no one sitting next to you giving you a nudge one way or another. In an ideal world I think a stint in the RHS seat time in a Twin Otter followed by a good period of single pilot piston ops and then back to the Twin Otter for a command makes perfect sense. But it is not a perfect world and as mentioned above there are fewer and fewer piston aircraft in PNG now. When I first got to PNG the larger operators of piston aircraft included Islands, Airlink, South West, MBA and NCA and there were also a number of smaller charter outfits. Most of the operators listed above substituted the initial 'perfect world' RHS time in a Twin Otter for a shorter period of ICUS in a smaller piston and their pilots were then let loose to complete their apprenticeships, but then most pilots at that time (post Talair) came to PNG with a few more hours behind them. Now there is a step missing in that process.

...still single

25th Aug 2009, 03:11

I am always a little perplexed by the view that pilots would be better off by flying Command on light pistons first. If I was asked which was safer, flying an Islander (or even worse C-206) single pilot in PNG, or an Otter (two crew, turbine powered etc) I would go with the Otter.

I would say the Otter would be safer as well. And yet, as far as I know, NCA have had only one fatal crash with their fleet of bugsmashers. Look at the last half dozen aircraft on that list of PNG prangs. A fair representation of two-pilot, two-engine turbines there. Arguably, two engines are not always better than one, and likewise, two pilots may not always be better than one. (I think two pilots and two engines are better, most of the time, but there are issues with two-crew ops that don't exist with single pilot ops).

But I digress. The point is, the person in the right hand seat may have thousands of hours of experience, but not a single hour of command experience since they did their CPL training. And FO experience is nothing like command experience. I think FO time beyond about 500 hours is worth very little, while all command time (especially in PNG) is invaluable. Some may disagree with me. Fine.
I can't prove my opinion, but I stand by it.

Chimbu chuckles

25th Aug 2009, 08:08

I think you tend to be a lot more careful/conservative in a piston single or twin and that transfers well to the Twotter style operations. Even better when we had -200 Twotters which had only marginally better performance than an Islander. You only started feeling less vulnerable in a -300 Twotter.

Two engines vs single engine is not the issue - VERY few PNG accidents are engine failure related.

I was never a supporter of 2 pilot ops in Twotters in PNG because,

1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,

2/. When ****s are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it

3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG:E

4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.

The accident record since the implementation of 2 crew ops seems to indicate no safety benefit has been realised.

Its all moot anyway - if SP command experience was to become a non negotiable Twotter command requirement you'd park most of the Twotters in PNG.

groper

26th Aug 2009, 20:59

Are the Australian accident investigation authorities helping PNG authorities with the investigation into this accident?

TWT

26th Aug 2009, 21:47

Yes AE-2009-050 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2009/aair/ae-2009-050.aspx)

wes_wall

27th Aug 2009, 17:23

Putting aside the tragedy which occured and began this thread, I have found it to be one of the most interesting things that I have read on PRuNE. My hats off to all who have flown in PNG, and who have posted their comments. I would like to see a separate topic devoted to stories and experiences with the flying in this area. It would no doubt provide valuable info for those still flying, or for those who are about to.

mattyj

28th Aug 2009, 00:35

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/152566-png-ples-bilong-tok-tok.html

try that wes

celco

28th Aug 2009, 01:37

I must agree and with the addition of the secound crew member the gradient was usually that steep it created even more work for the captain. It actually decreased safety and most of the CFIT accidents leading up to this point probably would have included two crew rather than one. It wasn't much fun trying to find Garoka or Hagen on a sh!tty morning, seperating yourself from other traffic and then trying to keep the dude in the right seat calm. :eek:

Trojan1981

28th Aug 2009, 01:42

Slight thread drift I know, but have services into Kokoda recommenced yet? The news gave the impession that they had all been stopped during the recovery process.

blackhand

28th Aug 2009, 02:52

have services into Kokoda recommenced yet?

Yes, airspace was opened a few days ago.
All bodies recovered.
Site has been released by ATBS.

teresa green

28th Aug 2009, 22:23

In my era (sigh) 1968 to 1974, it was only one pilot twotter, two pilots DC3, most of us thought nothing of it, though PNG was a wild and woolly place then and it is not just the terain I am talking about. It was not uncommon for pilots to wear sidearms, and I ALWAYS stood on the wing so I could not get "jumped" when loading or unloading, because they would love to nick that gun. It was a interesting era and brought some adventures for us then young blokes. The runways were often in places that your average line pilot today would totally freak out at, and many were littered with unsuccessful attempts to take off or land, especially warbirds from both sides, a constant reminder that if you stuffed up........ I was then young, dumb and happy, and enjoyed it very much, but scared the sh$t out of myself on more than one occasion, (as we all did) but amazingly enough only lost a couple of pilots and one aircraft in the time I was there. (One of which I referred to earlier). Those in BNE who would like to meet some of the pilots who flew in those times, there is a reunion at New Farm in Oct, (I don't have the details as am packing, the wife has decreed we are moving) but Chimbu probably does, and will post accordingly, if not, I will when can get my head around this mess. The stories that came out of PNG should be recorded, as this was flying that will never happen again, and I am thinking of contacting Peter Fitzsimmons or pehaps Capt Geoff Litchfield who was always good at wielding a pen, to get it down on paper, before we all start going to that aircrew bar in the sky. (hopefully).

Exaviator

29th Aug 2009, 04:29

Hi TG,

The 2009 TAA/Ansett PNG Reunion is being held on the 17th October. Eligibility is ALL TAA/Ansett PNG based staff from 1960 - 1973 and their spouses/partners or friend. Cost is $65 per head. I can supply a contact email for registration.

Hope to see you there!

Cheers Exaviator :ok:

sid Otoole

31st Aug 2009, 07:18

Knew him very very well he was very very experienced what a sad loss

sid Otoole

31st Aug 2009, 07:32

Add efogi to your list !!!!!

wes_wall

1st Sep 2009, 23:29

try that wes
thanks much, appreciate the link.

Kunai

7th Sep 2009, 00:09

Got a video on youtube of flying down the gap with an orbit of Isurava for anyone who is interested.

YouTube - Kokoda Gap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7sgKzSGSVU)

tipsy2

8th Sep 2009, 00:13

Thanks Kunai for the reminder to get my super8 films transfered to digital.

Was a great place to fly.

tipsy

Captain Nomad

8th Sep 2009, 02:11

...and that was on a nice morning. Now imagine doing it in poor wx with cloud and rain obscuring a lot of what you can see in that video! :uhoh:

Docomaker

14th Sep 2009, 04:10

Helllo All,

I am researching a documentary film on the challenges of flying in PNG and aviation safety, especially in the wake of the tragic events of 11 August 2009. Should you have information that could shed more light on the subject and wish to share it, please send me a private message.

Pinky the pilot

14th Sep 2009, 08:59

Docomaker; I take your request at face value by giving you this advice;
Unless you are prepared to post under your real name and give full contact details, I suspect that most, if not all ex and current PNG Pilots will treat you as nothing more than a journo on a muck raking expedition.

Speaking for myself only, until you meet that criteria I would'nt even give you the time of day.

Jabawocky

14th Sep 2009, 10:40

Doco

I second the above post. I was born in PNG, my parents flew around a fair bit in the 60's and that is as much a link as I can claim, but many of us have some passion ranging from mine right up to the likes of, Tinpis, Chimbu Chuckles, Chimbu Warrior etc etc.

I would suggest that you should seek out a few of the known experts and be prepared to pay for their knowledge.

If there was a topic that could be misrepresented any more than this one, i would be surprised.

I think many here would love to see a high quality and factual story told, unfortunately the media in all its forms has an extremely poor record at getting the facts anywhere near correct, so you could actually take this opportunity to make a name for yourself and gain a great following of support.

Good Luck!:ok:

the wizard of auz

14th Sep 2009, 13:56

I mirror Pinky's post............... Accept I don't own a watch.

tipsy2

18th Sep 2009, 02:09

Preliminary Accident Report here (ATSB/AIC)

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/762563/aic_preliminary_factual_report.pdf

tipsy

flyon-thewall

29th Sep 2009, 13:02

Friday 25th Sept CG 100 (balus 100) POM-CNS suffered depressuirsation & carried out an emergence descent.....could have something to do with schedulled maintanence being re-schedulled,being re-schedulled,being re-schedulled no spare aircraft,commercially driven by OPS dept.
In order to chase ALL the contract mining work a company needs to have reliable aircraft...not to mention a spare 1 or 2.
Must be great to have switched on management at the helm.

psycho joe

30th Sep 2009, 00:52

I was never a supporter of 2 pilot ops in Twotters in PNG because,

1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,

2/. When ****s are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it

3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG

4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.

The accident record since the implementation of 2 crew ops seems to indicate no safety benefit has been realised.

Its all moot anyway - if SP command experience was to become a non negotiable Twotter command requirement you'd park most of the Twotters in PNG.

Sorry CC but I have to disagree.

A few years ago now I flew for a PNG company, starting with around 2500 hrs of single pilot time flown in oz. After a training regime that quite frankly would put most regional (and some jet) airlines in Australia to shame I was checked to the right seat of an Otter. After 9 or 10 months of learning on the job I earned a spot in the left.

1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,

We took the multi crew thing very seriously. The company was part of the Air Niugini cadetship program. We were trained by people with muli crew experience and occasionally flew the line with ex jet airline pilots.

2/. When ****s are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it

Too true. We thoroughly briefed everything beforehand. The pm knew exactly what the PF was thinking right down to expected visual cues and terrain escape routes. The resulting cockpit environment at times was not unlike a close knit crew in a rally car. You may well scoff, but in all the low level flying in & out of valleys in marginal weather that we did I never felt uncomfortable. Nor did we ever mis-identify a valley, take a wrong turn, mis-judge rising terrain etc etc. You can imagine my surprise when moving on to a large airline back in oz. I found that 'proper' multi crew ostensibly consists of the PF flying & the PM operating the radios em tasol.

3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG.

A new FO would only be uncomfortable if they had no idea what was normal and what the other pilot was intending to do. That comes down to training & briefing.

4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.

Just as this would not be considered acceptable where you work. In the company that I worked the multi crew thing was taken seriously, ignoring a crew members concerns would have resulted in swift and severe actions from a higher authority.

IMHO the argument for extensive single pilot time in PNG doesn't fly. It's a bit like arguing that a Boeing/Airbus command would be safer if given to pilots with single pilot jet time.

Chimbu chuckles

30th Sep 2009, 02:45

PJ that is great - when I was SPing in PNG and there was the occasional need for 2 crew the result was a joke - I am very glad to hear that its done properly now.

A few years ago now I flew for a PNG company, starting with around 2500 hrs of single pilot time flown in oz. After a training regime that quite frankly would put most regional (and some jet) airlines in Australia to shame

The resulting cockpit environment at times was not unlike a close knit crew in a rally car. You may well scoff, but in all the low level flying in & out of valleys in marginal weather that we did I never felt uncomfortable. Nor did we ever mis-identify a valley, take a wrong turn, mis-judge rising terrain etc etc. You can imagine my surprise when moving on to a large airline back in oz. I found that 'proper' multi crew ostensibly consists of the PF flying & the PM operating the radios em tasol.

Great analogy.:ok:

That does not surprise me at all. The quality of the (SP) training we got in Talair/Airlink etc was excellent -vastly superior to what was happening in GA in Australia then or now - PX was similarly excellent in CRM/2 crew ops, world class in fact - those of us who went out to the world after PX all feel the same way - we have never had training since that is the equal of that we received at PX, particularly CRM.

2 crew ops in Twotters was just starting to be mooted when I left GA and joined PX thus I have no experience of 2 crew bush ops other than in the Dash 7. I remember discussing this issue with mates after we had joined PX and 2 crew Twotter ops became a reality - while non of us could work out what a co-pilot would do in a Twotter:E - I think the consensus was that PX CRM/SOPs would be needed and that just was not going to happen in PNG GA at that time.

I am very happy that changed.

Having said that I am still VERY HAPPY that all my time in Twotters/Bandits was SP. It was FUN :ok:

Diatryma

19th Jul 2010, 01:19

Inquiry in doubt as Kokoda crash chief axed | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/inquiry-in-doubt-as-kokoda-crash-chief-axed/story-e6frg6nf-1225893663677)

Hmmmm......

:rolleyes:

High 6

19th Jul 2010, 03:25

Not good news..... all these outstanding investigations need to be put to bed to give PNG aviation any credibility. Apart from the fact that lessons learnt may prevent future similar events occurring.

Are there any likely candidates that can take over and close these investigations off if Sid does not get a reprieve?

Jabawocky

19th Jul 2010, 04:08

Mr O'Toole, one of the country's most experienced investigators, became a whistleblower in 2008 when he warned a major air disaster was likely to occur as funding was not getting to important aviation safety areas such as crash investigations.

Right :rolleyes:.......He was the only one they had as far as I knew. And there is not likely to be a bunch of folk beating on the door to replace him either I reckon!:uhoh:

the wizard of auz

19th Jul 2010, 04:19

There is one high profile person who has his hat in the ring. Should be ideal for the position as he is a veteran crasher of helicopters.:hmm:
I don't think syd is all that interested in a reprieve judging from the conversation I had with him on Saturday.

Diatryma

19th Jul 2010, 05:08

Couldn't really blame him having been doing this:

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

for so many years!

Di :cool:

Pinky the pilot

19th Jul 2010, 09:35

Inquiry in doubt as Kokoda crash chief axed

When I was there it used to be known as the `Land of the unexpected.`:rolleyes:

How come I knew this was going to happen?:ugh:

Reckon I know one bloke who used to work in that area and would have considered returning if asked, but doubt if he would now.

geeup

19th Jul 2010, 22:32

What happen to the AusAid money that was setup to assit with the investigation of that crash? :hmm:

Did we ever get an outcome to the Bandit crash?

Jabawocky

19th Jul 2010, 22:40

What happen to the AusAid money that was setup to assit with the investigation of that crash? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

ooohhhhh dis n dat :rolleyes:

What do you reckon happened!

Diatryma

20th Jul 2010, 01:11

Kokoda crash report won't be delayed: Government - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/19/2958217.htm?section=justin)

Headline says "won't be delayed" article says "time frame should not be impacted"

Hmmmm.....what to believe. We will never know in any case....

What a shambles :yuk:

Di :{

the wizard of auz

20th Jul 2010, 05:42

As is most things up here at the moment. :ugh:

Ricky Bobby

21st Jul 2010, 19:16

I'm surprised they built up the enthusiasm to NOT renew the contract.

Night Beetle

31st Jul 2010, 05:48

Just a thought.

If it were my company I would finance the report and get everything out in the open once and for all.I am sure it could be done in an unbaised way.

The PNG aviation authority will not improve because of it(Safety Report) but at least there would be closure for everyone.

APNG is a dynamic company and can very well foot the bill.

cnic

1st Aug 2010, 00:18

APNG can not fund the report it would never be seen as unbias. In a corrupt country like PNG it would never be seen as a true and unbias report. I have heard that people within APNG are not happy about this, of course they want this properly investigated what well run airline would not. Just remember APNG lost employees and friends that day that they still miss to this day. They are not as cold hearted as the journos would like to think they are.

Night Beetle

1st Aug 2010, 21:03

Where the money comes from,no-one needs to know.

APNG lost 3 friends, what about the other nine lives.

The other families want to know why their friends never came home to.

Without any action soon this tragedy will only go the way of so many others in the past.

the wizard of auz

1st Aug 2010, 23:49

You would have to wonder why everyone is hanging on the edge of their seats for a report. unless it was an actual process failure, what can be achieved from it?. Yes it is sad, and a tragic loss of life, but actually having someone to blame for it isn't going to improve a damn thing.
You can have as many processes and procedures as you like to achieve a result, but if the PIC diverts away from them and causes an accident, what can you do?. no-one I know goes out of their way to cause an accident, and we all sign stuff that says we intend to adhere to the stated procedures, and yet an accident occurred. Did she follow procedure/process? we may never know, but probably not, as the accident happened.
As long as the report doesn't show a systemic failure, what other than blaming is to be achieved by it?.
In a situation such as this one, the report will be at best an educated guess based on the few facts they can glean from paperwork and witnesses.

Night Beetle

2nd Aug 2010, 01:41

It gives some closure for those grieving.

Get the job finished and stop blaming the in efficiencies of the PNG CAA for not getting "a report" out.

the wizard of auz

3rd Aug 2010, 00:33

Well Mr. all knowing night beetle. maybe you should look into who is actually responsible for the report then. It aint the CAA. Maybe have a look at the AIC and point your finger at them huh?. As you obviously know who I am, and I'm pretty sure I know who you are, you would know that the mob I work for are not involved at all. In fact we ourselves are also waiting for the report .

Night Beetle

3rd Aug 2010, 02:41

Here steady on, auz. I don't know who you are and have no desire to.

I do know you have alot to say about everything,that is fine.Your right and my right to comment also.
Lets leave the personal abuse out of this.

It is the "system" that is at fault,if you work in part of the "system"that is purely coincidental.:)

the wizard of auz

3rd Aug 2010, 04:28

No personal abuse intended....... Must just read bad.
I do have a bit to say, but only about matters I know about. this happens to be one of those matters. (with regards to my last post)
I was simply wondering aloud with the post before. Wondering why so much importance is being placed on a report that will in essence achieve very little.
Basically, unless there was a systemic procedural problem, the pilot got it wrong. So someone gets the blame.... I can't see that achieving much at all. I guess the families will get closure of sorts........ they can now blame someone.
But why all the media coverage and public outcry of Syd getting canned?. Yes, the report will be delayed, but it certainly isn't going to make flying in PNG any safer because a report into a tragic accident is released. If one believes all the media hype, its the be all and end all of air safety in PNG and unless its release is done in a short time, we're all going to crash and die.

Waghi Warrior

3rd Aug 2010, 22:52

The aviation industry in PNG has been basically self regulated for years by the operators, due to the associated problems with the government departments who are responsible for the industry, hence all the operators have taken it on board to enhance their own safety culture within their organizations. As mentioned in one of the recent newspaper reports last weekend, ramp checks etc once were being carried out but when the funding dried up it all stopped.

The report isn't really going to tell us anymore than we already know, the PIC hit the hill in IMC and that was the end of it. What needs to be addressed is how she ended up being in IMC below the LSALT, ie inexperience, training, commercial pressures, and the list goes on. To say that the aircraft crashed due to bad weather just doesn't fit the bill, as the PIC was the one who put the aircraft into the bad weather, was the weather bad at PY when she departed ? No.

I totally agree with Wiz, if the PIC diverts from SOP's/process which obviously has occurred in this instance it leaves a lot of things open. Basically if a crew ignore SOP's, then they are out on their own.

Industry education is the thing that should be coming out of this report, not pointing fingers at various people.

As we all know PNG is on of the toughest countries in the world to fly in, and the more the PNG aviation community learn from tragic accidents like this the better, in an effort to prevent accidents like this from occurring in the future.

blackhand

4th Aug 2010, 00:53

Should be ideal for the position as he is a veteran crasher of helicopters
AND NOMAD???
Now that's a bit harsh, OZ
He has told me that the money offered was extremely low, don't think he will be going there unless the ante is upped a lot.

And maybe Syd is his own enemy in all this.
He intimated to his superiors what the report would say.

Cheers
BH

the wizard of auz

4th Aug 2010, 07:57

Agreed Blackhand. he certainly can be his own worse enemy sometimes.
You know who I was talking about...... He also told me the same thing about the money. I believe what they offered was on the point of being ridicules and he was hanging out for a better offer.
The crasher remark was tongue in cheek........... but he is pretty good at it. :}

TunaBum

10th Aug 2010, 01:29

Wondering why so much importance is being placed on a report that will in essence achieve very little.

Well Wiz perhaps this helps to explain why some may be interested in exactly why the accident happened?:

Kokoda crash pay-outs capped by PNG law | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/kokoda-crash-pay-outs-capped-by-png-law/story-e6frg6nf-1225903169364)

Kokoda crash pay-outs capped by PNG law.

RELATIVES of the nine Australians killed in an air crash near Kokoda would only get paltry compensation under the country's legislation.

Several groups of relatives are due to visit Kokoda and the crash site about 85km north of the capital Port Moresby this week, to hold a memorial service on the one year anniversary of the accident, which killed the Australians, three Papua New Guineans and one Japanese when their aircraft hit a mountain.

The relatives could face hostility from some landowners at the crash site who have yet to receive any reparations for damage to their property.
Earlier this year, landowners in a village near the site complained their water supply had been contaminated and a swath of forest had been chopped down to allow rescue and salvage helicopters to access the crash site, on a steep ridge about six hours' walk from the nearest road.
The landowners alleged medicines carried by the plane had leached into a local creek and polluted the water supply.

A local ex-pat who asked not to be named told The Australian that landowners had conducted an animated discussion about compensation with Australian High Commission officials who visited the crash site.
Yesterday a spokesman for the Australian Foreign Affairs Department reported villagers said they had written to Airlines PNG about the issues.
Airlines PNG, which operated the crash plane, said last month that compensation was "being discussed with the state".

PNG's Community Development Minister, Carol Kidu, who is accompanying one group of relatives to the crash site this week, confirmed compensation had been an issue but said she would be with the group and would help explain the situation to locals.

Compensation payouts from the airline's insurers to the Australian relatives could be as little as $12,500, according to experienced international aviation lawyer Patrick Nunan.

Mr Nunan says the families of the Kokoda victims would only be entitled to a capped payment of a maximum of 30,000 kina or about $12,500 under the local legislation.

TB :suspect:

the wizard of auz

11th Aug 2010, 00:19

Nail on the head TB. thats what the locals are more interested in. :hmm:

404 Titan

11th Aug 2010, 01:30

I think any shortfall it what Australian courts would consider appropriate compensation should be taken out of Australia’s annual aid package to PNG. As for the local land owners wanting compensation? Take that up with the aircraft owner, Airlines PNG and the PNG Government. This has absolutely nothing tho do with the Australian victims, their families or the Australian tax payer. I am very disappointed that the Australian High Commission even talked to them.

Mach E Avelli

11th Aug 2010, 02:22

APNG is an international operator and will have appropriate liability insurance as a condition of its Australian FAOC. Whether or not the PNG CAA provided proper regulatory oversight or adequate investigation, it was APNG's crash, not the PNG Government's. The Government may yet have to answer to ICAO on this and a number of other issues. But not the point here.
Because Australian citizens were involved, a case for compensation should be brought to court at an international level.
While it is not usual for investigations to apportion blame - but to find the cause - litigation lawyers don't operate under any such limitations. Once blame is established, if land has been polluted, the landowners may also be able to seek a settlement at a higher level or for a higher value than what is available locally. It probably depends on their ability to engage a suitable headkicking legal team. How is it the responsibility of the Australian taxpayer, via any special aid, unless it becomes some kind of urgent natural or environmental disaster? Unlikely that a passenger-carrying Twin Otter would be carrying enough toxins to do that. And if it was, that would open up another can of worms via the DG regulations.
Whatever, the insurers will be in their usual huddle to try and weasel out at minimum cost.

TunaBum

11th Aug 2010, 13:41

Of course they would have insurance, but the insurer wouldn't pay out more than they legally had to. Why should they?

Aussie citizens or not - it was a domestic flight and subject to PNG law - which limits payout from the carrier to 30,000 Kina. The nationality of those killed is irrelevant.

The litigation lawyers you refer to Mach therefore have nowhere to go against APNG. Of course if they can find someone else to blame then they may be able to get somewhere. Hence they would probably be very interested in the outcome of the accident investigations.

I don't like their chances.

No offence Mach, but personally I'm a bit over insurance bashing sentiments from those who perhaps aren't armed with the facts.

TB :yuk:

tolakuma manki

12th Aug 2010, 21:37

The litigation lawyers you refer to Mach therefore have nowhere to go against APNG

Is this true??
Have see case in PNG where was very much higher payout than 30 thousand kina.
Is this case of strict liability, I think not.

gas-chamber

13th Aug 2010, 01:25

It may have been a PNG domestic flight, but wotif the Aussie citizens bought a package that included international travel? They got to PNG somehow.

TunaBum

13th Aug 2010, 01:37

tolakuma manki,

The other case may have been a private flight? In which case strict liability and the Kina30,000 limit wouldn't have applied. This was not.

gas-chamber,

Sounds like you know what you are on about.

TB ;)

Metro man

13th Aug 2010, 01:45

Did they have their own travel insurance ?
Where they part of an organized tour that included insurance ?
Did any of them have life insurance policies ?

Waghi Warrior

13th Aug 2010, 09:09

Regardless who had what kind of insurance it means nothing until Sid or some from the PNG DOT publishes a final report.
This is partly why Airlink closed down,no insurance paid out on the Goroka Bandit crash,the Hoskins Islander crash and the Patrick Kundin Bandit crash,hence this is one of the reasons why Sid went public in the way he did. The ATR was the final straw for Airlink. The whole thing comes back to the PNG politicians,I say no more !

Waghi Warrior

19th Aug 2010, 06:03

Merger proposed for PX, Airlines PNG | The National (http://www.thenational.com.pg/?q=node/11960)

Interesting :eek:

I really hope this doesn't eventuate. I'll even start going to church to pray that this doesn't happen.

If APNG collapsed,Air Niugini would more than likely get APNG's existing contracts provided they could supply the aircraft and crews.

There is no way that Air Niugini would get something out of this,other than a hell of a head ache.

TBM-Legend

19th Aug 2010, 06:35

Huge losses @ APNG plus losses @ Skytrans I hear...=???

777tinpis

19th Aug 2010, 06:45

Merger?....CRICKEY!

Waghi Warrior

19th Aug 2010, 08:00

I also heard that one of APNG's most experienced DHC-6 checkies has decided to team up with an ex APNG Dash 8 Captain,to start servicing the PNG bush strips,that aren't being serviced any more.
Good onya MB and JT
PX doesn't want APNG's tired aircraft,nor do we want Toomey !

Cravenmorehead

19th Aug 2010, 10:32

Ever thought that A/PNG and Air Niugini might be considering code sharing on the Cairns Moresby route to try to offset the QF Q400 and the dumping of capacity on the route. A/PNG can do it cheaper for sure. They have an under utilised ATR-72 available in the mornings nowadays; it seems. Nice machine I am led to believe. With about 95% of the mining work in the country I would say Air Niugini would love to merge with them , but I seriosly doubt the clients-mining companys- would be to happy.

Waghi Warrior

19th Aug 2010, 11:33

I dunno what planet you are on Head,why on earth would PX love to merge with APNG ?
Sounds like APNG are on the verge of collapse,I hope I'm wrong though.
PX taking onboard APNG just doesn't stack up,maybe there is some political influence ?

Kunai

19th Aug 2010, 20:56

Airfares in and out of PNG used to be astronomical! Competition has been the best thing that has happened to PX, they now run more efficiently and actually turn a profit. PX need APNG as it has made them improve and the people of PNG are the ones that have benefited the most.

There won't be any 'merger', however I do think the PNG govt need to buy into APNG and run a few auditors through the place. Then throw 'em a few more aircraft/refleet and let 'em loose.

Che cows with guns

20th Aug 2010, 10:30

I agree with with the above post. It never ceases to amaze me the drivel that comes out of PNG. I think it is interesting that all these merger comments and talks of imminent collapse come when A/PNG have just launched a very smick ATR-72 into the system. Air niugini are you scared of a little decent competion? Tired old dash8's, at A/PNG? I remember most of yours arriving in 1997 and then on. Yes A/PNG's are old but very well maintained by great engineers, with stacks of experience.
It would have been a very expensive exercise bringing the ATR-72 into service, and no doubt this would have placed a great financial burden on the company. I imagine that the old cash flow at present would be a worry. But they did it. LGL love it and it is a good example of a company that is not scared to think outside the box. From here I should imagine more will come. Remember A/PNG was is essentially a G.A operator a few years back with nothing more than a couple of B1900's and two very tired old Dash8's. They now have nearly all the lucrative mining work. The mining companies love them they do the job well and safely.
To rumours of merger and imminent collapse I say bollocks!
I agree with Craven perhaps Air Agony and A/PNG are looking at joining forces on the Cairns POM run to stave off QF and their foray into the market. It would make sense to me.
Cheers

NCD

21st Aug 2010, 04:41

Che

APNG chairman Simon Wild told shareholders that, in its first full year of operations as a listed company, APNG had suffered an overall loss of K24.6 million. It made a loss of K7.5 million in 2008.

Drivel?

Hopefully 2009 and 10 were better years.

Anyway, heres hoping the talk of merger and imminent collapse is, as you say, just "BOLLOCKS" :ok:

Re..stave off QF might be a quite await to see that happen I'd wager.

jackeyuma

22nd Aug 2010, 23:08

I am married to the son of Harold Gibson Lee (DickLee)and live in Canada.
His father passed away when he was 14 and does not have too many memories. Any thing you could tell us would give my husband a sense of who his father was.

You could email him at [email protected]

Dick is about to celebrate his 75th birthday and I am hoping you could share some memories. Thank you, Jackie Lee, Kelowna B.C. Canada

Waghi Warrior

22nd Dec 2010, 19:43

Sounds like the final report into this accident isn't too far away. Papers are reporting that the PNG AIC has handed their final draft report to the ATSB and all the other interested parties for final review before it goes public.

This report will be the most detailed accident report to ever come out of PNG. The report is expected to be released during the first quarter of 2011. No doubt it will be a very unbiased detailed report, and I hope that we all can learn from this tragic accident.

Sweat31

13th Jan 2011, 23:34

I am able to assist with some information on Harold G Lee
You can contact me on
email
[email protected]

jackeyuma

24th Feb 2011, 15:32

How might I contact you personally'

We are in Arizona for the winter and I just checked this sight.

I can be contacted by email @ [email protected]. thank you Jackie Lee

Waghi Warrior

30th Mar 2011, 10:32

The final accident report is being released tomorrow Thursday 31st of March. If I'm wrong about this I apologize, as the information that I received didn't come from a reliable source !

Anyone heard anything else along these lines ?

amos2

11th Apr 2011, 08:30

Hmmm! Enough said!

Waghi Warrior

11th Apr 2011, 10:43

I don't think there is enough said !

What the report highlights is the way that some operators have been operating incorrectly for years, what I'm specifically referring to is the co-pilot not being instrument rated. APNG is not the only operator who has put non instrument rated pilots in their RH seats, in an effort to fulfill the requirements to operate IFR. The report also displays a lack of surveillance by the regulator. As to how the co-pilot got his medical certificate is another issue in itself, reading in between the lines.

On the upside it looks like this accident has been a wake call for the industry in general, to lift their standards and this also includes the regulator. It's also good to see that new rules and changes are going to be made as a direct result of this accident.

It's also very good to see that APNG have pro actively hired some very experienced Twin Otter Captains since the accident, in an effort to raise their pilots experience levels, and from what I have personally observed, this really has payed off.

troppo

30th Apr 2011, 23:30

Incase anyone missed it
Investigation: AE-2009-050 - Controlled flight into terrain - 11 km south-east of Kokoda Airstrip, Papua New Guinea, 11 August 2009, P2-MCB, De Havilland Canada DHC-6-300 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2009/aair/ae-2009-050.aspx)

Dogs Best Friend

28th Jan 2014, 23:50

All of the Otter Pilots in Lae were interviewed at the inquest.

After I had been questioned and while I was sitting in the hot seat there was some discussion between the Talair Lawyer and the Coroner that somehow or other the Maintaince Release had gone missing and somehow or other there was no record of who flew the aircraft prior to Peter. I tried to interject but was told to leave the courtroom. I think with a lot of PNG prangs the legal systems just went through the motions and basically the Operators had all the power.

Pete had a Wife (Barbara) and I think the Kids names were Ryan and Tara. He was a really good guy and they were a nice family. The extra sad thing was that he had resigned from Talair and his house was packed up as he had accepted a job with Air Pacific. Barbara and the kids went South instead.

flyingsaint

29th Jan 2014, 06:37

Bula guys/girls. As said what are they doing now , no otter only dash 8

Logohu

29th Jan 2014, 10:27

Some of the Otters were sold to Hevilift, the rest are for sale

APNG only operate Dash 8s now, 14 of them in the fleet

Cactusjack

29th Jan 2014, 11:18

PX doesn't want APNG's tired aircraft,nor do we want Toomey !Well you don't have to worry about Toomey these days, he is 'absolutely' a long way away from PNG and Australia. However APNG did get the Skytrans CEO and his chief footstool, the former Skytrans HOFO. You boys at APNG ought to do some really thorough research on these two and their time at Skytrans :=

What the report highlights is the way that some operators have been operating incorrectly for years, what I'm specifically referring to is the co-pilot not being instrument rated. APNG is not the only operator who has put non instrument rated pilots in their RH seats, in an effort to fulfill the requirements to operate IFR.You're correct, they aren't the only ones to do it. Unfortunately though their accident record including the deaths of around 90 people over 10 years is disgraceful. But of course the MD lives a life luxury in Australia and remains totally unaccountable.