Trapped on an airplane for 9 hours

[spagiola]

This time it's Continental doing the honors:

47 trapped in 'nightmare' overnight aboard small Continental plane (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6566466.html)

And, yes, it was an ExpressJet aircraft operating as Continental Express, but every single passenger on that aircraft booked their ticket with Continental.

[Romeo Delta]

And this is why, right or wrong, for better or worse, the "Passengers Bill of Rights" is going to pass, and any flight delayed for 3 hours or more will HAVE to be sent back to the terminal (open or not) if requested by the passengers.

:rolleyes:

[obgraham]

Alright, this has happened before, and there is always a bunch of excuses from the airlines about "why" but little or no effort to solve the actual event.

Here's what I don't ever understand: why don't the passengers simply stand up, open the doors, and move on out? That'll get the attention of the security folks who couldn't be bothered come back and deal with it. Can't very well put all 47 of them in the local jail, and even if they did, at least there's a potty in there.

[awesomepilot]

a nightmarish scenario..! as if passengers are undead zombie cargo :(
47 trapped on 'nightmare' flight to the Twin Cities (http://www.startribune.com/local/east/52798827.html?page=2&c=y)

It's absolutely disgraceful and dangerous! As a pilot I would refuse to fly any jet with such a horrendoues attitude to passengers. It demeans my professional standing as a deliverer of excellent and comfortable flying experiences, full of the joy and wonder of flight ! Yes flight is a wondrous thing for mankind and every person should be entitled to partake of its vastness without having to endure fcramped cargo, broken toilet, malodorous cabin experiences like this !

let us stand united great pilots of the realm! refuse to fly if your airline ever has rules hinting at a possibility of this happening ! Never again shall we be slaves to the silly corporate exces who couldn't compute a fuel load much less maneuver one of our great birds in the sky !

[Load Toad]

That 30 foot drop down to the tarmac would be interesting.

Plus - most people don't want fuss or confrontation - that's not why they boarded the plane.

[frontcheck]

This sounds absolutely horrendous and totally unacceptable. I am unfamiliar with Rochester airport but wonder how many ground/security staff would actually be on duty at 1 a.m.?
It seems a very strange decision to divert to an airport which is effectively closed for the night.
Also it states the crew were out of hours so did they stay with the aircraft?
very strange.:hmm:

[Final 3 Greens]

It sounds awful for the poor people stuck on what sounds like an Embraer 145, from the description.

Difficult to believe that a bus could not be found.

[Avman]

I'm sure some lawyers will be rubbing their hands!

[PaperTiger]

That 30 foot drop down to the tarmac would be interesting.Did they park that Embraer 145 (http://www.embraercommercialjets.com.br/english/content/erj/img/img_destaque_overview_145_03.jpg) on a hill or something ?

[obgraham]

Air-stair is integral with the door on most RJ's.

Won't even muss your pants exiting.

[Dropline]

This was a divert due to bad weather... how exactly would refusing to fly have helped anyone?

[ExXB]

And this is why, right or wrong, for better or worse, the "Passengers Bill of Rights" is going to pass, and any flight delayed for 3 hours or more will HAVE to be sent back to the terminal (open or not) if requested by the passengers.I guess you didn't read this story. The flight wasn't waiting on the taxiway to depart, it was diverted enroute from it's destination airport due to weather. Having the right to go back to the terminal would have meant taking off and returning to Houston.

But before we decide that passengers need more rights from these awful airlines perhaps we should consider who really is to blame here. I'm just guessing here, so anyone please correct me.

1. Thunderstorms reduce capacity (all ops?) at MSP. Who's to blame? a) God b) MSP airport for lack of capacity. c) CO for overscheduling at MSP. I'm guessing b) unless all ops were suspended then it would be a)

2. Diverted to Rochester, Minn after the airport has closed for the night. Who's to blame? a) CO b) ExpressJet c) FAA? I'm guessing the FAA decided which flights to divert and where. I can't see CO or ExpressJet deciding to divert to an airport where they have no presence.

3. Ground Staff couldn't organise a bus. Who's to blame? a) CO b)ExpressJet c) AA d) NW e)Bus company f)God. Seeing as CO / ExpressJet don't have operations at Rochester it can't be there fault. They may have arrangements with AA or NW (who do have ops, but not necessarily staff on the ground at the time) and/or a local groundhandler but not clear from the story. Can't blame the nameless bus company so it has to be f). This one also implies that the passengers could have disembarked, had ground transport been available.

4. Passengers weren't allowed off the plane. Who's to blame? a) CO b)ExpressJet c) TSA d) Airport? I'm guessing again, but I can't see it being a) or b) that would make this decision. So it's either c) or d) or ?

5. TSA not available after airport closed. Shouldn't they have contingency plans for these situations? 1 or 2 supervisors could have dealt (albeit slowly) with this. This one's got to be TSA's fault, for not planning for it and not implementing any solution.

6. OK last one. The weren't let into the terminal. Who's to blame. a) CO b)ExpressJet c) TSA d) Airport. Again I can't see a) or b) having any decision making authority on this one. TSA? Maybe, but I think this one goes to d). They too had no contingency plan for this type of IROPS. Why not? Couldn't the airport manager have decided on his own (after a call from the ground handler) to let them in, perchance to dream?

So, nasty nasty airlines. Not only should they given passengers their rights, they should be made to pay big buckets of money to each passenger - just like they do in Europe!

In all seriousness this all came about with the decision to divert this aircraft to a functionally closed airport. Perhaps it was the only possible solution to a not uncommon problem, but perhaps they also lack planning.

I'd appreciate any corrections to my assumptions and/or guesses but, in this particular case, I really can't see what the airline(s) could have done differently.

[boardingpass]

I've seen this sort of thing happen before to me. Diverted to a regional airport as main airport closed due to emergency. Regional airport overloaded by all aircraft that had to divert. No buses, no stairs, no fuel for three hours.
But what can you do? Land in a field? Send pax onto the dark apron without escort?

[PaperTiger]

PIC decides where to divert.

Rest of your points - only ExpressJet can answer and they won't do so publicly.

[L337]

Better on the ground, safe and alive, than in the air, being bounced around in a thunderstorm, running out of fuel, and running out of options.

Rather down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here.

[Buster the Bear]

I think engaging with the passengers, telling them the truth, giving them refreshments, what was once normal customer service might actually have placated some of them?

[Final 3 Greens]

Better on the ground, safe and alive, than in the air, being bounced around in a thunderstorm, running out of fuel, and running out of options.

Rather down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here.

Absolutely agree, from a flight deck perspective, but from an ops POV surely it is not beyond the wit of an airline operating in this area of the US to have a contingency plan to at least find a coach?

Its not as if heavy convective weather is unkown in summer :eek:

I experienced a similar diversion some years ago, being dropped in Richmond, VA, instead of La Guardia.

Having seen the of the cells blocking our path (seemed to go up to space), I was completely happy with the divert from the perspective of being the right decision.

On the ground, the airline had one staff member processing 6 diverted flights - that is just amateurish.

I lucky enough to be saved by some friendly locals who had local knowledge and booked me a hotel room, whilst the queue of people waiting for assistance must have been 50-60m long.

The airline subsequently paid me a substantial ex gratia payment for the costs of hotac and other consequential expenses.

[Donkey497]

There's a thread with more info under the SLF section.........

What beats me about this one is that the crew appears to have stayed with the plane as well as the passengers & so far, no-one is bitching about them apparently being stuck in the cockpit etc. for 9 hours.

[poina]

Well awesome pilot, you're going to have a short career.

[Romeo Delta]

ExXB, I guess YOU didn't read the story... A LOT of misconceptions on your part:

1. Thunderstorms reduce capacity (all ops?) at MSP. Who's to blame? a) God b) MSP airport for lack of capacity. c) CO for overscheduling at MSP. I'm guessing b) unless all ops were suspended then it would be a)

This one is pretty close. Nothing you can do about weather...

2. Diverted to Rochester, Minn after the airport has closed for the night. Who's to blame? a) CO b) ExpressJet c) FAA? I'm guessing the FAA decided which flights to divert and where. I can't see CO or ExpressJet deciding to divert to an airport where they have no presence.

PaperTiger has this one right. PIC choses where to divert. Continental, Expressjet, or the FAA have little to no say. Check the thread in R&N about he UA pilot who diverted to MIA to offload the purser for more info (than anyone needs) on that subject.

3. Ground Staff couldn't organise a bus. Who's to blame? a) CO b)ExpressJet c) AA d) NW e)Bus company f)God. Seeing as CO / ExpressJet don't have operations at Rochester it can't be there fault. They may have arrangements with AA or NW (who do have ops, but not necessarily staff on the ground at the time) and/or a local groundhandler but not clear from the story. Can't blame the nameless bus company so it has to be f). This one also implies that the passengers could have disembarked, had ground transport been available.

Can't be Expressjet's fault? Are you sure about that? It's their plane, their pax, and their chosen diversion point. According to AP news (I know, jouros, but still...), this was how it went down:

"Kristy Nicholas, a spokeswoman for ExpressJet Airlines, said passengers couldn't go to the Rochester terminal to wait out the storms because they would have needed to redo their security screening and screeners had gone home.

The airport's manager, Steven Leqve, said that wasn't true. Leqve said passengers could have waited in a secure area until their plane was cleared to leave."

Sounds like Expressjet is blowing smoke here...

4. Passengers weren't allowed off the plane. Who's to blame? a) CO b)ExpressJet c) TSA d) Airport? I'm guessing again, but I can't see it being a) or b) that would make this decision. So it's either c) or d) or ?

See above. Nothing to do with the airport or TSA. This is strictly Expressjet's deal.

5. TSA not available after airport closed. Shouldn't they have contingency plans for these situations? 1 or 2 supervisors could have dealt (albeit slowly) with this. This one's got to be TSA's fault, for not planning for it and not implementing any solution.

Goodonya for seeing this one. If a lack of TSA presence was an issue, then TSA needs to have a contingency for such happenings. What, no one was on call? But then again, flying every week myself, I've seen how TSA operates at some airports. And all I can do is wonder...

6. OK last one. The weren't let into the terminal. Who's to blame. a) CO b)ExpressJet c) TSA d) Airport. Again I can't see a) or b) having any decision making authority on this one. TSA? Maybe, but I think this one goes to d). They too had no contingency plan for this type of IROPS. Why not? Couldn't the airport manager have decided on his own (after a call from the ground handler) to let them in, perchance to dream?

Once again, see above. The airport manager DID have plans in place. Matter of fact, from the same AP article:

"The Rochester airport took in another diverted flight, a Northwest plane from Phoenix, just before Flight 2816 landed. The more than 50 passengers on that plane were placed on a bus and made it to Minneapolis by 1:30 a.m.

Leqve said the Delta manager in Rochester offered space on the bus to Continental, which declined."

According to NBC news today, CO and Expressjet are NOT denying this. Rather, they're apologizing, and giving all the pax vouchers for free flights in the future. This doesn't look like the actions of an innocent party.

So, nasty nasty airlines. Not only should they given passengers their rights, they should be made to pay big buckets of money to each passenger - just like they do in Europe!

See just above... It's already been done. Before you make a remark like that, you may want to get ALL the facts in place.

In all seriousness this all came about with the decision to divert this aircraft to a functionally closed airport. Perhaps it was the only possible solution to a not uncommon problem, but perhaps they also lack planning.

I'd appreciate any corrections to my assumptions and/or guesses but, in this particular case, I really can't see what the airline(s) could have done differently.

I agree, a lack of planning. But more on Expressjet's part than anything else. Hopefully now, you can understand how much differently it could have been handled. If Delta can get THEIR pax off the plane and into MSP by 1:30am, why couldn't Expressjet?

'Nuff said...

[Diamond Bob]

Very bad press for Continental. This will cost them in compensation, but also much more in bad publicity. First the Colgan crash and now this? I guess Continental uses several third party airlines?

Whatever -- there can't be a good excuse for passengers trapped on a small plane for this amount of time. Someone has to take responsibility that this doesn't happen, but they didn't. Now the "passenger bill of rights" will pass for sure. These guys seem to be a lot better at shooting themselves in the foot than running an airline.

[WHBM]

As ever US mainstream carriers want to take all the credit for their large networks, and then deny any link when things go wrong (was particularly noticeable after the Colgan accident).

There must be a whole manual at the Continental, and the other US majors, PR department for all sorts of eventualities, describing when you include the commuters in your business ("Our network, sir ? Oh yes, we serve 500 cities nationwide") and when you exclude them ("Disgraceful service, sir, on a plane painted in our livery, booked on our flight number, boarded at our terminal and with our in-flight mag in the seats ? Oh no, that is nothing to do with us").

Kristy Nicholas, a spokeswoman for ExpressJet Airlines
Like most airline PR staff nowadays, probably doesnt't know one end of a plane from the other.

from an ops POV surely it is not beyond the wit of an airline operating in this area of the US to have a contingency plan to at least find a coach?Has nobody in the USA ever heard of a handling agent ?

This will cost them in compensationHaha. Let me tell you how this works at US airlines. They offer the "compensation" in miles on their frequent flyer scheme. Not a member ? You have to open membership up to get the compensation. And then my god, try and spend them. Miles can seemingly never be redeemed on any route that is useful. Let me go to New York. "No seats available". But you can make normal reservations on every flight. "Available mileage redemption on those flights was set at zero".

[Capot]

I really can't see what the airline(s) could have done differently.

If that is really true, the writer is in the wrong industry.

[JayPee28bpr]

Here's an interesting take on airlines generally, courtesy of Matthew Lynn of Bloomberg. I think Mr Lynn has perhaps suffered a particularly stressful journey recently, but his article sums up air travel in the 21st century pretty well, I think. The current example on this thread is perhaps a worst case example of how badly airlines treat their customers, but it is by no means vastly outside the range of appalling service that passes for normal in the airline industry.

Ticket to Hell Is on Offer at Europe?s Airlines: Matthew Lynn - Bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=a_lGbxaeesnQ)

[PaperTiger]

There must be a whole manual at the Continental, and the other US majors, PR department for all sorts of eventualities, describing when you include the commuters in your business ("Our network, sir ? Oh yes, we serve 500 cities nationwide") and when you exclude them ("Disgraceful service, sir, on a plane painted in our livery, booked on our flight number, boarded at our terminal and with our in-flight mag in the seats ? Oh no, that is nothing to do with us").That's the reality, and the "manual" is one page, probably a single paragraph.

CO (and the rest) have a marketing agreement with their feeders. You paint your planes in our livery and we'll sell tickets for you. Period. The mainline plays no part in day-to-day operations, it is ExpressJet's crew and dispatchers who ****ed this up, and I doubt they even have a direct line to CO.

It's the nature of codeshares, and since these have been going on for 20 years you'd think people (ie. media) would know how it all works by now. It's only the public face of CO etc. that's involved, and while they are technically correct that it's all 'nuffin to do wiv us' they do suffer the adverse publicity. For a few days, then it's business as usual. Not going to change anything.

[Diamond Bob]

Haha. Let me tell you how this works at US airlines. They offer the "compensation" in miles on their frequent flyer scheme. Not a member ? You have to open membership up to get the compensation. And then my god, try and spend them. Miles can seemingly never be redeemed on any route that is useful. Let me go to New York. "No seats available". But you can make normal reservations on every flight. "Available mileage redemption on those flights was set at zero".

Continental refunded the ticket money and offered a voucher for a future flight, so they did give the passengers something.

Have to agree that the FF programs are more trouble than they are worth. Instead of a credit card that give you airline miles, I got the best card that gives cash back and then just buy my tickets. It works out a lot better than the FF deal, especially for a guy like me who doesn't fly much.

[airbourne]

47 people and not one with a set of balls????? Is this an american thing? Sit on the plane and say nothing? I would like to see the crew tell a crowd of Irish people that they cant get off. 3 hours maybe, but then I would demand that they open the doors and let me out as they are holding me against my will and its false arrest. So what if you cant get on the plane again, so what if you have to get another flight. So be it, but nobody is keeping me on an aircraft for 9 hours sitting on the ground. What are they going to do? Threaten to call the police and have me arrested? Go ahead, I want to get off anyway!!!

[Crepello]

You're not wrong, airborne - and many here have expressed surprise that nobody attempted to self-disembark, or simply called the local police to report unlawful detention.

[WHBM]

Once the crew went out of hours, what happened ? Did they stay on the aircraft or did they leave and go to a hotel for their rest period, the intention being that at the end of this they would come back to the aircraft in the morning and restart, along with the pax who had been stuck on board all night. Who, if anyone, stayed with the pax ?

If there were no screeners available then how would the rested crew, or any relief crew, get back airside ?

Whatever the circumstances, the FAA should not be sitting on their hands. They should be looking at pulling ExpressJet's AOC for this. There seem to be half-a-dozen or more regs they could be picked up on in five minutes here, it's just a question of attitude.

[radeng]

So what happens in such a situation if a pax calls the FA, complaining of shortness of breath, pain in chest and left arm etc. You now have a medical emergency, so chunks of airport have to open up -TSA or no TSA. But it sure seems the carrier made a total mess of it, and maybe someone will sue - and do well out of it. Probably the carrier is really paying Continental.....

[Bealzebub]

Diversions happen, and the delays caused as a consequence are inevitable to varying degrees. Sometimes a plan is formulated that for any number of reasons fails to come to fruition, thereby adding to the delay. However there comes a point when it is painfully obvious that something needs to be done imminently.

This was a domestic flight landing at a domestic airport. There is no screening requirement for passengers leaving such a flight, nor is there any immigration or customs requirement. If the passengers couldn't be accomodated in the terminal on a short term basis, and they couldn't be re-boarded in any event due to the lack of facility, then there was clearly no other option than to accomodate them overnight or redirect them by other means of transport.

This should have fallen to the carriers relevant operations department in the first instance. Failing that the Commander of the flight should have liased with the local handling agent (if there was one) or directly with his own operations department to put the necessary arrangments in place.

For whatever reason this wasn't done, it was clearly a monumental screw up, and one that is attracting publicity because it is so rare. Undoubtably the costs now will far exceed that of a few hotel rooms and a few taxi cabs.


This is often what happens when you have people in charge who either cannot make a decision, or are too timid to make the right one!

[SeenItAll]

Airbourne:

It's a Minnesota thing. I was also amazed that no pax decided simply to pull the door exit lever. But people in Minnesota are known for being far more compliant and polite than than the average Yank. Wouldn't have wanted to raise a scene, you betcha. :) :) :)

[pattern_is_full]

Sometimes even when flight deck crew, CC, and dispatch are all working in (apparent) harmony, things still go sour....

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/08/21/us/politics/AP-US-Nightmare-Flight.html?_r=1

I guess this is the right forum - it's news and it crosses several job titles. But given the first sentence in the story, maybe "Fragrant Harbor" would have been an appropriate forum, too.

8^)

[PA-28-180]

The TSA boogeyman strikes again! :ugh:

[742]

The TSA boogeyman strikes again! :ugh:


Perhaps if the TSA did not act like a bunch of thugs with secret rules -- and the latter is literally the case -- people would not be so frightened of using their common sense.

[Huck]

Don't blame the TSA on this one. The passengers were screened and inside the security perimeter. And I'll wager all the walkup doors on the jetways are not locked from the outside.

A simple call to 911 would have gotten an airport policeman on scene and an escort for all the passengers to go inside. The captain was looking to Houston dispatch for leadership. And we see how that worked out.

An alternate scheme - taxi to the corporate FBO on the field and deplane. Just takes a little initiative.

[742]

Where I live calling 911 for something that is not a true emergency can get you jail time (though normally just a nasty fine). As for going to the FBO, Internet rumor is that the airplane did not have any stairs and thus was dependent on a jetway or external stairs for getting the people off -- which pretty much kills the FBO option.

[free at last]

never on an old timer pilot would this have happened! Learn from the past, costumer comes first, this scenario is terrible. No Belly Aching from the CREW!!!!:)

[protectthehornet]

so they diverted...bad wx...if they had lots of fuel they could have held...but they didn't and they diverted.

so when did they get additional fuel at Rochester airport? AND did they refuel with no escape route for the passengers? At our airline *major&*, you can't fuel a plane unless the door is open and the passengers could get out to the jetway...just in case.

some quick questions for those who fly the EMB145:

1. does it have air stairs, stairs onbaord the plane for passengers to deplane and if so, where are they located?

2. What is the max fuel load for a fully loaded plane? In terms of hours or miles or both?

AND dear dumb regional pilots. If you can't get help , call the local fire department and ask them for help. Explain that the firemen could drive slowly and carefullly and arrive at the plane, aid in deplaning to a safe environment.

AND, dear dumb regional pilot and regional freaking airline dispatchers...IF you couldn't get a bus to get the folks to Minneapolis...why not get taxi cabs to take them to local hotels?

oh...the answer is money.

and stupidity!

I've been to Rochester, Minn and its a fine large town with a world renowned medical facility *mayo clinic*

ha

I hope some bright news reporter reads this and asks some tough questions!

idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND 742...calling 911 and immediately saying, this is not an emergency, but can you help me out? usually works just fine with no jail time. Indeed, in my neck of the woods 911 can be used as long as it doesn't interfere with real emegencies. USE some smarts.

one could also ask information on a cell phone for the non emergency number for the local fire department or local police department.

I would like to think that pilots can think...and even posters on the forum could think

and I would like to think that an FBO at a nice town like Rochester , Minn could manage some sort of portable stairs. Calling the FBO would certainly get a twenty four hour response to something like fuel, at a higher charge of course.

THIS WHOLE THING IS RIGHT UP THERE WITH some of the dumbest things in aviation that I have seen.

[muduckace]

Where I live calling 911 for something that is not a true emergency can get you jail time (though normally just a nasty fine)

This could also be legally calssified as unlawfull detainment (as well as many other definitions) justifying a 911 call and the airline, airport and federal government need to be held accountable. The jail time would just increase the financial settlement.

Somewhere we forgot as a nation that people, human beings are on these aircraft and the ignorant majority in this forum that refers to them as SLF need a damb awakining as they are your bread and butter and possibly your family, neighbors freinds etc.etc.

[akerosid]

CNN reports Transportation Sec's comments on the incident:

Feds: Regional carrier, not crew, at fault in plane's tarmac stranding - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/08/21/airplane.trapped/index.html)

"This could also be legally classified as unlawful detainment (as well as many other definitions) justifying a 911 call and the airline, airport and federal government need to be held accountable. The jail time would just increase the financial settlement."

This was my feeling on the issue; passengers were being held on the aircraft against their will, indeed having also being flown to an airport to which they didn't want to fly in the first place.

If nothing else, hopefully this incident will spur the development of an action plan to deal with situations like this. Talking sense to airlines and appealing for common sense almost certainly will not work, but if they're hit by large fines/court settlements and there is legal precedent, you can bet that they will begin to understand. It's sad that it comes down to "talking to them in a language they understand" (i.e. money), but if there is a positive outcome, it will hopefully be that we won't see a repeat of a situation like this.

[Gary Brown]

I've been stuck on a/c on the tarmac for hours several times, almost always due to horrendous weather delays. Usually outbound, but occasionally inbound. At DFW one time we landed in a storm gap, but had no available gate. Persistent lightning kept stopping ground ops, so we sat there like muppets for 3 hours...... The sole consolation was that the crew, front and back, were stuck in exactly the same situation, with the same lack of desire to be there....

The most similar to this Rochester thing that happened to me personally was a very late night divert on an already very delayed BA outbound from JFK to LHR. Long story, but we ended up landing at Montreal at about 2.30 am. Down, and taxi to some holding area (nowhere near a terminal) - and then the skipper comes on the PA to say that Montreal is now shut and, as there are no immigration personnel on duty, we have to remain on the a/c (in sub-zero temperatures......) until they turn up. Which they do shortly before 6.00am.... when we are eventually taken to hotels until the a/c can be fixed. Although again the crew were every bit as stuck as we were, in this case the cabin crew were a disgrace - they basically just gave up, announced that there was nothing left to eat or drink, gathered up front and remained there - bitching loudly - for the duration. Flight deck crew never emerged, but did give regular updates and apologies.

With the CO at Rochester, I'm slightly puzzled. The suggestion is that the passengers and crew could physically have de-planed, but the issue would then be whether they were or were not in a restricted area. Question - do we know whether the flight crew remained in the a/c for the duration? If so, OK: in that circumstance you - SLF - have to defer to their authority and judgement on the spot (though I have vowed next time this happens to me to take the "Irish Solution" mentioned above!). But, unless the PIC has somehow managed to leave the a/c, then he or she remains as PIC - and surely **as Commander** he or she could and should have done more, much more for the safety and comfort of the passengers and crew. Why - seemingly - no calls to the local cops, the fire guys? No call to local radio or TV stations - who I'm sure would have loved to put out an all points to anyone still awake with any sense of responsibility or authority.... I don't think - from the limited evidence - that the PIC made every possible effort here.

That said, I'm always amazed to think how flight crews have to deal with these endless, intensely frustrating and uncomfortable delays. To be stopped and messed around for hours and then, perhaps, just have to turn on the fully pro approach to getting the a/c airborne, turning on a mental dime. I really do think that it's a very special kind of skill, and I'm grateful that all the guys and gals up front have it!

But that's why I'm really wondering if this Rochester PIC dropped the responsibility ball (or whether of course there is much more to the tale....).

AGB

[obgraham]

The suggestion is that the passengers and crew could physically have de-planed, but the issue would then be whether they were or were not in a restricted area.
AGBWhat utter rubbish. Security exists FOR the passengers, not the other way around. The passengers should have taken the initiative, and then made the security procedures serve their purposes. If the PIC either could not or would not make the proper decision, they should have deplaned themselves onto the tarmac. That would get some authorities there "toot sweet". At least if they decided to take them all to jail, a bus would be required and the toilets there wouldn't be overflowing. Sort that out with the judge.

[Gary Brown]

@obgraham,

Actually I agree with you (well, apart from the "rubbish"!). What I was trying to say that it seems that the PIC made the **command decision** not to de-plane the passengers because he was told that to do so would constitute a security breach: righly or wrongly, sensibly or stupidly that's the decision he made (or so it seems...).

I'm with you that, in this ridiculous situation, passengers could have taken matters into their own hands, confident that public opinion would support them in the end. But there's a difference between passengers saying, "Right, we've had enough!", opening the doors and de-planing regardless, and passengers maybe physically removing a protesting crew from in front of the doors, and ignoring a PIC who says, "I'm ordering you, Sir, to return to your seat...".

As the old saying goes, Hit a Cop, Go to Jail......

AGB

[PaperTiger]

Internet rumor is that the airplane did not have any stairsAnd, quite surprisingly, that rumor is wrong. Embraer 145.

[obgraham]

...and passengers maybe physically removing a protesting crew from in front of the doors, and ignoring a PIC who says, "I'm ordering you, Sir, to return to your seat...".
AGB
there is a time and place for mutiny, even today.

[Gary Brown]

@ obgraham

Again agreed. But - in that extreme instance - don't expect mutiny to improve your day!


AGB

[protectthehornet]

does the plane in question have stairs?

[PaperTiger]

Internet rumor is that the airplane did not have any stairs And, quite surprisingly, that rumor is wrong. Embraer 145.Time for a nice crow snack, mmmm. :O

ExpressJet 145s do NOT have airstairs; I didn't know that was an option. See:http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/19/194/194171/mediaitems/437/coex5_LG.jpg