Harbour Air - proposed Irish seaplane operator

[Cyrano]

Seaplane service to link Foynes with Galway. (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0808/1224252232596.html)

Interesting idea, and appeals to the romantic in me - but realistic? The operator's own website is pretty basic, hasn't been spellchecked yet, and proposes to start Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Belfast, Dublin-Inishmore, and a few other routes once the Foynes-Galway metropolitan axis is fully served...

[DADDY-OH!]

Any connection to Harbour Air that operates around Vancouver & British Columbia?

[virginblue]

Well, the link reveals:

The service will be a joint venture with Harbour Air Malta, which will be supplying expertise and the aircraft, a 14-seater single-engine Otter seaplane.

[Scott Diamond]

"We Harbour Air Ireland Ltd declare the right of all the people of Ireland to the connectivity of Ireland via its lakes, rivers, harbours, and sea estuaries."

What sort of crummy mission statement is that... the spelling on the website is dreadful, too. :suspect:

[iwhak]

Sounds like the statement of someone who hasn't looked out the window in the last twenty years. On a regular basis Ireland gets the strongest winds, swells and lowest cloud in Europe. How could anybody propose a scheduled VFR seaplane operation in Ireland. Are they going to have fuel farms at each point, have they applied for planning for same, will they be let, have they considered the difficulty in accessing aviation fuel other than from an airport? Maybe I'm missing something!

[walu]

I think these guys have reasearched this project for five years, they've got some money behind them and now it's a matter of an aircraft/maintenance and a base. The planned partnership with HA is not going to work so they are going to go it alone from what I understand. I wish them the best as it's a beautiful country which has as yet untapped seaplane potential. I know the weather issues are there so it's gotta be seasonal and possibly tied in with other operators ie helicopters and tour operators in order to provide security to the business long term. I don't know but I think if they spend the money on the right things from the start then it's possible.

[coefficientoflift]

Any more information on Harbour Flights Ltd? Have they hired crew, looking for crew?
I see they have received planning permission for a number of docking stations around Ireland and looks like they could be up and running very soon?

[groundhand]

One wonders if they have considered the implications of the ICAO proposals about improving safety standards on water used as a runway?

If adopted, they are dead in the water (apologies for the pun).

[N707ZS]

Has Victor Basey got an internet conection in jail?

[Kavs8]

Route Map Harbour Flights (http://www.harbourflights.com/seaplane-flight-destinations/)

Intresting Destinations...

[mutleyshriek]

So,in Belfast we are now gonna have Belfast International,Belfast City and Belfast Harbour(River Lagan)airports.Haha its dead in the woods before its even started.

[GROUNDHOG]

I have flown several times with Harbour Air between Nanaimo and Vancouver and they could learn a lot from them, what a brilliant switched on operation that is. Love the idea having been the founder of airlines in the past myself I would love to do something like this but hope they have researched it very very thoroughly otherwise that cash will soon be gone!

A lot could be learned from Canada and the wind blows a lot over there too and it snows quite a bit as well! There might be an operator or two in Tofino as well that could add some good advice?

[iwhak]

I am definitely missing something here. Cessna 172 VFR operations year round in Ireland. Add weight of floats, oh where to put 3 pax plus baggage, and all on an AOC!, and it does DUB/GWY in 40 mins - course there are never any headwinds, silly me. Am off to doc for some magic pills.

[Cyrano]

I am definitely missing something here. Cessna 172 VFR operations year round in Ireland. Add weight of floats, oh where to put 3 pax plus baggage, and all on an AOC!, and it does DUB/GWY in 40 mins - course there are never any headwinds, silly me. Am off to doc for some magic pills.

In fairness I would guess that the east-of-the-Shannon routes would need to wait for a Twin Otter (which according to the website their business plan anticipates in Year 3). I do agree the 172 would be adequate for sightseeing and little else, and the C208 may be a bit better for short-range A-to-B transport. (As to the economics of a Dublin-Galway seaplane service, that's another story... but perhaps Dublin-Mountshannon-Killarney could be a dark-horse entry for the Kerry PSO newly vacated by Mr O'Leary ;) )

I wish them well, but it's a very tough sell in today's Ireland. Now if they were proposing this three or four years ago...

[coefficientoflift]

Anymore updates on Harbour air? Last I read, they were waiting for planning permission to be issued on 28th November last. Are they still on track for commencing commercial flights anytime soon, and how are they fixed for crew?

Somehow, I can't see C172 on floats (or even C206) making financial sense, but a Van / Twotter on the other hand...

All in all, I think it's an excellent idea. I hope it works out for them.:ok:

CofL

[firefish]

Loch Lomond makes money so why can't these guys do it? Weather is an issue off course but with say a twotter on amphibs you could operate IFR and use a "real" airport as a guarantee for the passengers (however an inconvenient one).

[GROUNDHOG]

I have been on and watched the Harbour Air ( Canada) Otters departing twelve months of the year, of course weather is an issue but they seem to cope with it remarkably well! A fabulous little airline.

[coefficientoflift]

Less than a week left of 2010... Guess it won't be happening this year then?
Really do hope it works out for them tho'.:ok: Do they actually have aircraft puchased / on lease?

[learjet50]

In my humble opion there wont be one.

Ireland is an Island although it has many small Islands of the Coast mostly un-inhabited it is still an Island.

Seaplane operators make Money flying Inter-Island NOT over Island.

The principal is good but wont work.

The Transport structure in Eire is stedily improving and has been doing over the las few years therefore people dont want to fly Foynes or wherever to other Parts.

The Aircraft Choice is totally wrong a C172 ?? you would be lucky to take 2 pax.

Sorry to say this is a Lame Duck j with the Irish Economy as it is no one will be intrested in investing/Using a Sea Plane.

Sorry to bring doom and Gloom but this idea has been on the Cards for a couple of years now It will die a natural death Im afraid


Regards and Happy 2011

[coefficientoflift]

Learjet,

Many interesting and valid points there. And I think your right with about 90% of what you say. But I still believe this could work, given the right a/c.

Many routes, ie cork city centre to dublin city centre, although served by good roads / train, still takes 3-5 hours depending on traffic, time of day, day of week etc!
If you can do point to point in under an hour, surely there is a market there!?

With the right ticket pricing and aircraft, you could be onto a winner!?

my two cents...

[corsair]

Actually I do believe there is a market for a floatplane operation in Ireland particularly the west coast. Ignore the C172, they don't even own it. It will be replaced quite quickly. Their route plans are quite optimistic to say the least but there's no harm in that. Realistically they will concentrate on the west coast initially. There is no reason a floatplane operation won't succeed here. It has succeeded elsewhere.

They have been badly delayed by the planning process. The usual suspects lined up with spurious and malicious objections. Believe me I have experience of that in the locality.:rolleyes: But that hurdle has been crossed now so we can expect something in 2011.

I do believe that Galway will be their most productive outpost. It has a lot of tourists and with the Aran Islands and Connemara nearby there is a ready market for scenic tourist flights. Plus there are plenty of lakes and loughs in the west with hotels on the shoreline. Plenty of opportunities for ad hoc charters. But their main base at Mountshannon is in the middle of nowhere. There is no obvious market there.

As for the weather, well despite our reputation for bad weather. My experience with flying VFR year round in Ireland is that while there will be interruptions it's often flyable and safe even in Winter.

I wish them luck, not only that my CV will no doubt join others in their in-tray. Flying floatplanes for a living? I'll have some of that.:ok:

[coefficientoflift]

Yeah, I'm with you on that one, I really think this could work if marketed / planned properly and with the right aircraft.

Floatplanes around Ireland!? Not a bad gig at all... If you could get it.
What kind of $$$$ would a float plane pilot command / get in Ireland?

[jarvis123]

my CV will no doubt join others in their in-tray

Hope you have a lot of float time. A certain Scottish operator required 500 hrs P1 on floats. Pay was very good mind.:ok:

[coefficientoflift]

The preverbial catch 22 again! Can't get P1 hours without a job, and vice verce....

[firefish]

I've got 700 hrs on floats (mainly amphibs), both piston and turbine, PM me :)

[corsair]

Hope you have a lot of float time. A certain Scottish operator required 500 hrs P1 on floats. Pay was very good mind.Hope being the operative word! No harm in trying. No I imagine their initial intake will be like Firefish, with a bit of time behind them. But when something comes up on your doorstep as it were, you can't ignore a potential opportunity.

[coefficientoflift]

Good luck Corsair,

Hope you get the call... or at least a response! If your not in, you can't win right?

Looking forward to any further developments...

[Cyrano]

Learjet,

Many interesting and valid points there. And I think your right with about 90% of what you say. But I still believe this could work, given the right a/c.

Many routes, ie cork city centre to dublin city centre, although served by good roads / train, still takes 3-5 hours depending on traffic, time of day, day of week etc!
If you can do point to point in under an hour, surely there is a market there!?

With the right ticket pricing and aircraft, you could be onto a winner!?

my two cents...

As I said in my post that started this thread, the concept appeals to the romantic in me and I wish them well, I honestly do. But it will only work if they focus on the niches where they have a chance of offering an attractive and competitive product, and that's going to be largely a tourism-based market rather than Cork-Dublin commuters. Learjet50 sums it up well:
Seaplane operators make Money flying Inter-Island NOT over Island.

Consider:

if I'm a Cork business person wanting to come to Dublin city centre for a meeting, I can already fly Ryanair (cheap, no choice of schedules), drive (hassle, traffic) or take the train (frequent, straightforward, reasonably comfortable especially if my business pays for first class). For a time-sensitive business passenger the train seems like a good option.
Against that you're proposing a seaplane service from - oh, I don't know - Tivoli or Blackrock up to Dublin Port? No real improvement in location convenience - I still need to get taxis at both ends - but some time saving, fair enough: say a 1 hour flight rather than a 2.5 hour train journey.
However, the biggest single problem is that the seaplane is going to be daylight VFR...
VFR is the first part of this problem. If I have to be up in Dublin for an 0900 meeting, there's not much point in me pitching up to take the 0715 flight only to find that conditions are not VFR and I'll have to get the train instead.
And "daylight" is the second part of this problem. Sunrise and sunset today in Dublin were 0837 and 1619. (If anyone's curious, Vancouver's official daylight was 37 minutes longer than us today). Even if I run forward a couple of months to March 01 2011, sunrise is 0713 and sunset is 1800. Sunrise is effectively dictating the earliest possible departure time and sunset (minus a margin) the latest feasible arrival. Do you really think it'll be competitive to offer a last departure from Dublin at about 1500 in January and say 1640 in March? (I'm allowing 20 minutes of delay contingency - unless the aircraft is an amphibian which can divert to a real airport, that's likely not enough).
You're postulating that there is a time-sensitive market segment looking for a faster Cork/Dublin city-centre-to-city-centre journey time than the train (or the plane) can give them today. Fair enough, there may be. But if you are time-sensitive it's because you have to be somewhere at a given time for a meeting or a pitch or an interview or whatever, and that means the alternative needs to be reliable above all. Loch Lomond Seaplanes seem to be doing a good job building up their operation over in Scotland. But even they say (http://www.lochlomondseaplanes.com/index.php?doc=32), Considering the challenging operating environment of the seaplane customers are advised that if they absolutely, positively have to be somewhere at a particular time perhaps the use of another form of transport should be considered.


With the right ticket pricing and aircraft, you could be onto a winner!?


Sorry... :sad:

[Aero Mad]

Shame that SVFR isn't an option...

[coefficientoflift]

Oucchh Cyrano,

Shoot me down in flames why don't ya!? I can dream can't I??

You make some good and valid points, and it certainly won't be an easy task, with heaps of obstacles in the way... But, like I said, rightly or wrongly, I still think it could work... And what's more, I hope it does.

That said, there seems to be very little new word on the situation, and their website still states that they hope to be up and running in 2010!!?

CofL

[Ryan5252]

BUMP!!! And what a bump!

A Seaplane operation has been granted an AOC for operation in Ireland & UK.

In no way related to Harbour Air though :ok:

[coefficientoflift]

Hey Ryan,

Very interesting... Any details on above?

[sawtooth]

MOL putting floats on the 738 to avoid DAA charges?? Do tell...

[planenut321]

European Seaplanes at Cardiff Bay?

Seaplane service awaits take-off from the Bay to a lake near you - Business News - Business - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2010/11/08/seaplane-service-awaits-take-off-from-the-bay-to-a-lake-near-you-91466-27616781/)

[GROUNDHOG]

It is something I am looking at for another route, I believe there is a place for seaplane operations in the UK and Ireland.

[Ryan5252]

I believe there is a place for seaplane operations in the UK and Ireland.
Very little in the way of opportunity for seaplane operations in England due to restrictions on waterways - makes it very much impossible to operate from.

[GROUNDHOG]

But restrictions can be lifted.

[Ryan5252]

Obviously, not wanting to hinder any back and forth between the company and the CAA but I was referring to Lakeland Seaplane Tours which has now comenced full commerical operations in Northern Ireland.

It is refreshing to see an 'airline' not only survive through the current economic situation but also trade in such a unique way and in such an obscure part of the country. First Commercial Seaplane Operation in Ireland!

Those of you who know Steve Powell of the Amphibious Flying Club (by way of previous SES training) will be pleased to learn that this is Steve's company and as well as Chief Pilot for Lakeland Seaplane Tours Steve remains CFI for the Amphibious Flying Club and for SES ratings.

Enjoy!

[sawtooth]

IAA have awarded Harbour Air a seaplane license this afternoon. They also have planning permission for their main base sites according to their website.

[GROUNDHOG]

Is there any relationship to the Canadian Harbour Air in Vancouver? What a great little operation that is, flown with them often and will again in a couple of weeks time.

[IslandPilot]

A VFR/SE operation along these lines will be very weather limited, and and I speak with many years experience of flying on public transport ops all over Ireland using the mark 1 eyeball, long before the regional airports and navaids appeared - but maybe they are hoping to get approval for GPS approaches - IFR in a single???

If the intention is to operate tourist /sightseeing flights in good VMC there is probably some seasonal upmarket demand, but I doubt that SE overwater public transport ops to the Aran Islands are legal, even in a floatplane.

They will need a twin eng floatplane to address the IMC and overwater issues

I wish them luck, but...............

[Ryan5252]

IAA have awarded Harbour Air a seaplane license this afternoon. They also have planning permission for their main base sites according to their website.
Harbour Flights have not been awarded a seaplane licence by the IAA. Wording in media was deliberately misleading :=. An operational licence was issued for 'a seaplane base'. As it remains, there is only one Seaplane operator in Ireland with an AOC for CAT operations.:D

[BG101]

Any update on Harbour flights? I haven't seen or heard anything for a while now....

Thanks.

[Hangar6]

I can confirm a single engined a/c can be seen from time to time on a pontoon in my local vlllage harbour, not sure if any revenue flights as yet,
We did have an airshow in Spetember in Mountshannon, amazing when you think of the chances of any money being made with this serive and or operation, still made for a good weekend.:hmm: