Anyone on here actually recruit for airlines

[neil_1821]

I'm after some advise, maybe some of the more experienced pilots can help as I'm trying to get as many opinions as possible

Like a large majority of people out there I'm at the crossroads of making a decision. I've gained my Frozen ATPL and I'm keeping my IR current. I'm thinking about the future for when the airlines start to recruit again and how to make myself stand out from other pilots.

I came out of my training with minimal hours and I've got roughly 230 in total. I know airlines like more hours but you can't get a job without experience and you can't get experience without a job! :ugh:

I am still hour building on a C152, while many people will think this is pointless I'm trying to be disciplined by flying procedures, VOR tracking, NDB's, IR holds around beacons etc, but there's really only so much i can do before i get bored!

So is it really worth building 250 hours on C152/PA28 etc? Would an airline still look at your qualifications even if you went and found another job in this recession?

[neil_1821]

I forgot to mention that, i have been looking at working on the ground side for an airline/cargo

I'm based about 15 minutes from East midlands and I've been up there and handed in letters/CV's but nothing's appeared yet, I've also been ringing around but i guess it's a case of keep knocking at the doors

[Bealzebub]

All around the UK, Europe, North America and much of the rest of the world, airline management teams are gathering in their boardrooms and deciding what to do, to survive the current global recession and enable they survive as business entities. What is already clear and will become increasingly clear over the coming months is that they are treating every last penny and cent as if it were their last. They are deferring and cancelling aircraft deliveries. They are selling assets where there is a market, where there isn't, they are parking up aircraft. They are laying off staff in their thousands and they are cutting salaries for those that remain.

For pilots in the Uk alone, redundancies are already in the hundreds, and within a few months are likely to be in the thousands. These are not 250 hour frozen ATPL wannabes, but experienced 737,747,757,767,777, A320, A310, A330, A340, regional jet and turboprop pilots with thousands of hours of on type experience under their belts. Add to this the lucky few who have aquired a similiar job in the last couple of years and you have another group of type rated low experience pilots also looking for the same work.

The overseas bolt holes that might have absorbed some of this overflow, are themselves reeling from the recession and either have, or are likely to, also cancel and defer aircraft deliveries. Even where jobs can be found, it is likely to be on a "needs must" basis with many of those affected seeking to return to their homeland at the earliest opportunity.

Add to all of this the fact that the main airliner manufacturers are having major production and delivery problems with their new technology replacement airframes and previous delivery dates are now slipping by over 5 years in some cases. Add on top, the increase in statutory retirement ages for pilots, which in many major western economies (including ours) has resulted in an increase in the working life of a pilot by anything up to 10 years. Look at the airlines who have exploited a niche that allows them to sell the First officers job to vanity publishing type wannabes, who pay to sit there for a hundred hours, in the hope this will provide them with a better future, sitting in that same seat (that somebody else will probably be paying to occupy.)

So with all of this in mind, and please bear in mind I am not describing some sort of apocalyptic future, this is what is happening and accelerating now! With a large redundant pool of experienced type rated airline pilots, why would any airline even be giving a second thought to anybody with a few hours on C152's or PA28's etc? Recruiters are not going to care, because the secretary who screens the CV's (but is now typing redundancy letters,) is never going to let these CV's get that far.

The only positive advice I can offer, is either take a very hard and long term view of this industry, with a view to working your way slowly and methodicaly through whatever entry level jobs may materialize together with all the competition you will inevitably face. You could raise the money to buy one of the type rating/line training "jobs" that are becoming increasingly popular and keep your fingers crossed!

Keep earning money wherever you can, keep flying and improving your skills. There isn't much else out here, and if you believe you are bored now, the future is likely to prove a major dissappointment! Look at the market with wide open eyes and a plan a future for yourself that takes into account the realities of that market.

[jet.man123]

For what it's worth I dont think hours building on a C152 will do you any good in the commercial world. Nowdays the airlines are looking for hours on type and the ability to be trained, not hours flapping around in light aircraft. Save your money, keep the IR current and buy a type rating and line hours, ignore the negative comments on these threads and get on with your career. I know funding can be an issue, but this advice is broad brush and won't suit all pockets, sadly. Good luck

[cessnagirl]

I know a lot of guys and girls who bought type ratings and line training. One friend of mine has a job. Others still searching. It's not going to be of much use if you've not got a job to go to and are not keeping current on type. I'm going to try somewhere like RYR where at least a job could be on the cards if you pass the TR with them.

Regards, CG

[Mercenary Pilot]

For what it's worth I dont think hours building on a C152 will do you any good in the commercial world.Absolute rubbish, hours is hours. :rolleyes:

Where do some of you wannabes get off with your worthless "advice"?

Keep flying and building up experience. It wasn't so long ago that a couple of airlines in the UK had bonded schemes in place where the minimum requirement was 1000TT (most of the pilots hired were Flight Instructors btw).

The turbo-prop operators like to hire guys with some hours because it brings up the overall experience total at the airline and gives them some flexibility when they suddenly find that all their captains have headed off to the jets.

Minimum air-taxi pilot experience is around 400 hours although you would need to get a little multi time from some place.

Do NOT go out and buy a TR and line hours. There are much more experienced pilots out there who are far more employable and will work for low salaries also. It pigeon-holes you onto a certain type and other operators will not offer you a position if they think you will stick your fingers up at them and disappear off to use your shiny jet rating given half a chance.

Many operators (including many airlines) don't have a proper HR departments and the applications are reviewed by the Chief Pilot after being filtered by the office secretary (usually minimum total hours being the criteria ;)) . Most CP's worked their way up the ladder the old fashioned way so that does have an influence.

My advice would be to head down to your local airfield and offer your IR skills and try to find a bit of (usually volunteer) work as a safety pilot.

Besides flying is flying, sometimes you have to remind yourself why you got into this melarkey in the first place?

Regards

MP

:ok:

[Bealzebub]

ignore the negative comments on these threads and get on with your career.

Ignoring warnings in aviation is not usually conducive to longevity, but anyone is free to ignore whatever they want. :rolleyes:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks guys. Seriously. I was gettin weary with it all after 18 months. Come in, warn, spell it out. I try but I'm tired.


WWW

[jet.man123]

MP.. Are you seriously trying to tell me that flapping around the circuit at Shoreham is to be compared with multi crew multi pilot hours!

Why do you think the criteria to unfeeze the ATPL was changed years ago.. Yes.. because guys with 1500 hrs C152 could hold an Airline Transport ticket.. complete nonsense.. Now having said that.. keep current, keep the IR skills and keep in the system, but if its a trade off go for the advanced commercial training if you can afford it.

And Cessna girl.. whats the difference between the CTC scheme, BMI, Easyjet. all pay to train.. jobs are based on performance, not just passing the rating..BUT.. I agree if you can do the rating aligned to an airline there is a better chance at the end as the process is continuous assessment. This is why BMI and Easy only use their own TRIs on the courses and TRE to examine at the end.

There's no right or wrong here, this forum is for debate not missile firing:=

[Bealzebub]

Yes! Now where is the emoticon I think applies to that statement. http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/backpedal.gif

[Mercenary Pilot]

Why do you think the criteria to unfeeze the ATPL was changed years ago.. Yes.. because guys with 1500 hrs C152 could hold an Airline Transport ticket

Nope it was changed because of the introduction of JAR. The old self improver system worked well actually and generally produced a higher standard of basic IF skills and knowledge than we see from pilots coming through today.

I've already outlined why hours on a C152 is worth something and why buying a TR is not a good idea.

There's no right or wrong here

There is right and wrong when bad advice means still being unemployed AND riddled with crippling debt. Do you know how expensive a type rating is to keep current every year?

neil_1821
Keep plugging away as you are. Do some flying, stay involved with the industry and keep networking. All it takes is for someone to turn around and say " I know someone who is looking for a pilot" and thats you on the first step.

Also if you havent wasted all your money on a TR then you will be in a position later on to cover an upfront bond or, worse case, pay for a TR which is directly linked to a job such as Ryanair.

[jet.man123]

Introduction of JAR made the recommendations that were then adopted! rest my case.

Cost of maintaining a Type Rating.. NIL if you are employed...

The old self improver route.. Agree it did produce some good pilots, unfortunately the industry didn,t always recognise this, hence the success of OAA and the like. I assume you are making a comparison between integrated courses and modular, as the type rating process was never part of a self improver route.

I would caution the new guys to move with the times and not get bogged down with "how it used to be" because for sure.. it isn't going back that way. If we are not careful in the UK we will lag hopelessly behind Europe and be licking our wounds as part of the " If only" brigade.

There are plenty of airline consultants out there that will give you advice for free.. nearly all fly with legacy carriers.. use them rather than this bun fighting forum.

[Mercenary Pilot]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Your points are nonsense. You blatantly have no idea what JAR is about, what the self improver route was, or what is going on in the aviation industry ether in the UK or in Europe.

Cost of maintaining a Type Rating.. NIL if you are employed...

I rest my case.

[GBB]

jm123,

With people like you telling others how to go about getting a job, wannabes will have to spend at least 150-200k for their training in very near future and still be lucky to find a job.
Whats is the point of spending all that money? So you can be a proud jet pilot (if you can find a job!), earning 2000 euro a month, not being able to get a decent apartment, eating instant noodles and paying off your loans for next 20-30 years! What a great idea.
Please tell me what would happen if there was NOBODY willing to pay (to jump the queue, take a short cut) for TR + hours.
The operators would SIMPLY have to pay for it or keep their toys on ground.

[jet.man123]

MP, I don,t think you are in aviation or at least not the same world we are in. I did the AFI/ 700hrs to CPL then worked at Cabair instructing on twins before getting an SD360 rating then onto 737/ 757/76 now A330, I think I do understand a lot more than you think, read Lazors, STD DOCS, then get away from flight sim and try and be constructive. As for JAR? You haven,t a clue.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Well I must admit that I am most intrigued to hear that not only are you flying commercially, you even worked your way up to that position the hard way. Why is it then that you would advise new pilots to waste all that money when you know as well as any of us that there aren't any jobs at the moment?

All around our colleagues are having pay-cuts imposed on them, being made redundant or their employer has gone bust. This is not just contained in the UK, other European countries such as Spain and Italy (among many others) have also seen many experienced pilots out on the street.

JAR was brought in to unionise aviation regulations across Europe and to come up with a standardised system where all aircraft types would be certified in all member states with the minimum of issues regarding airworthiness (think Airbus).

JAR FCL while stopping 1500 SE/SP piston drivers, it certainly did not stop under qualified pilots gaining the licence. This has been addressed to some extent about a year or so ago with the introduction of the ATPL skill test.

But I digress, I still think that your advice to neil_1821 is extremely poor.

[jet.man123]

MP, I am aware that the UK industry is pretty much on its knees and would not suggest that anyone spends either their hard -earned or borrowed money with the view to getting a job in the UK in the current climate. We get a handfull of CVs most weeks from pilots working on summer contracts, some with well known UK outfits that are looking for continuity of work after the season, some of these guys have 500+ hrs on type but due to family and other commitments don't want to work outside UK. Three weeks ago we were base training abroad a bunch of guys that had self typed, all these had bought line packages, and all will go on winter contracts after 300hrs, only problem.. the work is not in UK and guys can find themselves working to live.. that's another story of course. The sad reflection on the UK was that only one student was from here, one from Eire, the rest were all from central europe. Is it a lack of funding, confidence or the fear of large debts.. who can say..On a positive note, it is good to see some of the sponsorship creeping back into the industry over here.. albeit slowly and tough to secure.

[YarreYarran]

I dont know what to say after reading all this... I know three guys just qualified and have got jobs...
My first flying intrctor with C-152 hours has got job in Kuwait.
And two novices with just CPLs got jobs in one of the airfied in Hertz.

[BigFootDriver]

Mercenary wannabe pilot,Are you serious? Who appointed you head master of aviation advancement?For Petes sake, you've made over 1000 posts! Get a life loser boy, let these guys figure it out the same way we all did. No one gives a rats ass about your arrogant opinions.Sheesh!BFD

[Mercenary Pilot]

Get a life loser boy, let these guys figure it out the same way we all didSlinging personal insults behind an anonymous user-name on a bulletin board. I think that makes you the loser. :rolleyes:

[African Drunk]

I recruit for a biz jet operator. We are currently recruiting FO's and I look for those with a 1000hrs TT. I am not sure what the airlines require but it has always seemed to me that hours help. I would also be reluctant to but a type without a guarenteed job as their are many type rated pilots around. We are a low profile company but we still currently recieve 150 cv's a week.

[Kiltie]

WWW if you are tired of stating your point then why bother posting that remark? In fact, as moderator of the forum, why don't you close this thread or the entire forum down if you feel that way?

There are always going to be new guys asking questions on this forum who naturally don't have anywhere near the exposure to or longevity in the industry that you have. Don't you think it would be more mature to allow those who are willing to offer a modicum of encouragement to do so without weighting these threads with your persistent dismissal?

I sympathise with the original poster's position. Most of us have been there in the early stages of our careers. The majority of replies are regrettably true; I'd guess nothing is going to happen for you in employment for at least three years yet. It's a rotten time for an hours-builder or integrated / modular student.

As someone who used to interview pilots for a UK airline, I always rated currency of flying and a job in an aviation environment or similar as showing willingness to persevere. Among important other factors, this deserved reward of a job but it was entirely dependant on what kind of pilot we needed at the time (fast track command or shortage of FOs etc.) Believe me it was not always prudent for us in what was a turboprop company to hire redundant medium jet pilots for example as their potential length of service was unlikely to be relied upon as worthwhile; however in some circumstances hiring them had obvious other benefits. Please also don't be overwhelmed in to thinking all turboprop airlines "prefer" flying instructors. Some years ago I recall the Chief Pilot and I passing over two FIs in favour of someone with less hours who actually flunked many of the technical questions but acted maturely and honourably at the close of interview. He was hired on the basis of his compliant and engaging personality and went on to shine as a First Officer. It's not critical to answer the tech questions correctly to succeed at interview!

If you have a logbook of adventurous cross country IMC flying or para dropping each of these carry their own merits. Bar those companies that stipulate a minimum, there is also more to hiring a new recruit than how many hours he has. Personality, appearance and life experience are also considered in the interview environment. Also, we considered integrated as well as modular trained pilots without bias. Each can carry their own benefits that I have observed over the years, but I digress..

MP mentions trying to find an aircraft operator that would appreciate a safety pilot; even if it's a light piston twin with its owner or a King Air or similar, doing some voluntary work like this is good advice. It keeps your awareness up and broadens your experience, even if you aren't able to log most of it. And having re-read your post Neil, yes... get a job at EMA doing anything aviation related. You may find you work your way around several companies locally as your face gets known. When I was 21 I was pulling pints and doing forestry work. Futile on reflection.

Keep your online applications to the various companies updated. The next few years will be unhappy for you if you are focussed purely on achieving a flying job; have a go at seeking work in airline Operations or handling agent dispatching; each have their benefits of keeping your face in the game and you will gain good knowledge of how airlines work, not least keep your dream alive. Start to get real that nothing is going to happen for a few years and the dream is more likely to come true. Get on with your life positively in the meantime, don't fall in to the trap of feeling sorry for yourself and revive this thread and shout it from the rooftops when you eventually get that job!

[AviatorJack]

Instead of zipping around in a 152, why not move somewhere (like Africa) and fly a 206 around for a year? Your hours will build up, you'll do some awesome flying, have fun, improve your skills and get paid for it!!

Just a suggestion....

[F117A]

I would love to fly on a 206 in Africa but I have searched the whole web to find something, but there is nothing happening. If you have any suggestions can you please advise thanks

[MVE]

Some wise words Kiltie!

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Africa is not normally a place where you find a job "browsing the web". Get a ticket, a fancy backpack, a passport, a credit card and a few USD... And don't forget to bring the follwing too (essential).
- The right, open attitude.

It is always tough for 250 hours guys to get a job but right now, it is tougher so a "go getter" approach will just bring you where few others are. Then it is personality and persistance.
It might not sound like much but when you have not very much experience at all to offer, those a skills some employers (some good ones and bad ones alike) will consider more valuable than your lack of hours.

As for building time in a 152. Well, I'd say it is better than nothing but make sure you keep your IR current against 100s of hours on a 152 paid of your own pocket.

Good luck.

[EYZ]

Hi,

I fly for an airline, I also recruit for an airline.
What is said on this forum is not always true, there are jobs out there, but its a slow tough market right now. However airplanes are still being delivered, in my airline alone we have 6-7 more to come in 2008.
Now our min hours are 1500 to fly A330/A340, but for every person we take, it leaves a gap further down the food chain.
I think patiences are the key, too many people think getting the ATPL is the hard part, but thats the easy bit, its joining the working club thats hard. Once your in, life is much easier.
Africa is a good idea right now, the UN are always a starter.

I wish you well.

BBB