Refused from bar after Funeral

[Grimweasel]

Now this sort of thing should make every servicepersons’ blood boil.

How these ill-educated knuckle dragging simians can say that 'squaddies are not welcome' when their mate has been fighting to preserve the freedoms of these 'vermin' is beyond me. People like this need re-educating...

Military News - Soldiers attending funeral of Afghanistan hero banned from bar 'because of military uniform' (http://www.military-world.net/Afghanistan/2171.html)

[mystic_meg]

Perhaps a change of name is in order for the bar concerned - change the first 2 letters to "TW?"

[airborne_artist]

Not condoning this at all, but a bit of prior preparation would have been a good idea. A visit to the bar(s) in question a few days before to ask/warn them of the likely numbers/dress/reason may have resolved it very easily.

Ppruners who need a private, but very welcoming venue, fully set up for military reunions/wakes/weddings/dinners PM me for details of our Bisley clubhouse. Also has good overnight accom.

[NURSE]

" I went in to an ale house to buy a pint of beer
The Landlord he ups and says
'we serve no redcoates ere'"

Kipling commented on it over 100 years ago.

Very insensitive of the club concerned and very shortsighted buissness wise.

[Wander00]

So when does the permanent boycott of that bar start - words fail me. My heart goes out to the family, and we should be so proud of how the guys in uniform took it - some of that dust around again

[startermotor]

I was "Down Route" a couple of years ago.
I was in Pensicola, Florida. As a group we went into a small area which had several different bars as part of one big building.
We decided to go into the largest bar which had live music and looked from the onset to be a bikers bar.
All very spit and sawdust and looked like there could be trouble at any moment. But the music was good so we stayed.
About 21.00 the doors opened and about 25 men walked in from the local Naval Station all wearing there best uniforms. Very white and very smart.
Every one to a man in the bar stood up and applauded each and every one of them, even the band struck up with the National anthem.

[Tankertrashnav]

'It's a lose-lose situation for me.'


Manager of the bar concerned, quoted in the article.

With a well-organised boycott it could well be. Couple of months should close it down in the present climate.

[sitigeltfel]

The assault has begun...

The Phatz Bar - Maidenhead Bars & Pubs Reviews - TrustedPlaces (http://trustedplaces.com/review/uk/maidenhead/bar-pub/1f0ca9/the-phatz-bar)

[Charlie Time]

I hope the 'manager' (I use the term loosely) is damn proud of himself.

[GPMG]

Although military personnel deserve more respect from the govt and some quarters of the general public. I do hope that the whole thing does not go too far, with squaddies crying 'rape' every time they don't get a level of service that they believe they should recieve.

Yeah the door policy is $hite but who hasn't been denied entry to a pub or club for one reason or another. The fact that it was post funeral is a seperate issue in my opinion. The only issue here is that blokes weren't allowed in wearing uniform, whether you agree with it or not ( I think that it is a poor attitude from the manager) it is still his right to make that decision as it is his bar.

Isn't the outrage bus getting a bit full?

[ix_touring]

Reading the local "news" papers and having driven through Maidenhead from time to time, the pub district is a right hole in the evenings.:yuk:

3 or 4 in uniform would up the standards a LONG way.

iX

[CirrusF]

Although military personnel deserve more respect from the govt and some quarters of the general public. I do hope that the whole thing does not go too far, with squaddies crying 'rape' every time they don't get a level of service that they believe they should recieve.

Yeah the door policy is $hite but who hasn't been denied entry to a pub or club for one reason or another. The fact that it was post funeral is a seperate issue in my opinion. The only issue here is that blokes weren't allowed in wearing uniform, whether you agree with it or not ( I think that it is a poor attitude from the manager) it is still his right to make that decision as it is his bar.

Isn't the outrage bus getting a bit full?


Well made point, jimpy.

Although we know it wasn't the military's fault, but a huge amount of the military's political capital with the general public (not to mention lives) was wasted in Iraq. Even now, the public is divided on the merit of our deployment in Afghanistan. A substantial proportion of the British public think that Herrick is a waste of public funds that could be better spent on hospitals, or reducing the impact of recession and unemployment on families. Whether we like it or not, uniformed service people are likely to be at best divisive in a public bar, and at worst provocative to some. It is entirely the bar owner's discretion as to the door policy that will ensure a peaceful and profitable night. Maybe we should all remember that his taxes are paying our salaries, instead of assuming that everybody should bow to us...

[TEEEJ]

Not condoning the action and especially post funeral, but surely the rules apply across the services in regards to uniform and licensed premises?

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/96453EF0_ABE4_1A8E_F5DFFE866A594026.pdf

'0113.

Occasion on which uniform is not to be worn.

b. Visits to licensed premises (including when not consuming alcohol), except when specifically approved by the Chain of Command.'

[Chugalug2]

GPMG:

Isn't the outrage bus getting a bit full?

It seems there is a different level of outrage between those who serve (witness the Squaddies themselves) and those who don't (witness me). The former were philosophical and resigned, the latter are on the top deck of your bus, Geeps, and spitting blood! This is another establishment on my nogo list, joining the likes of Harrods, a similar shabby establishment. Time for a website dedicated to highlighting such peace loving, "personally I'm all against war" or "It's not me, but my customers get upset if they see uniforms" or "We have a dress code and Forces Uniforms aren't in it" establishments. Avoid!

[StbdD]

Isn't the outrage bus getting a bit full?

There is no possible reason for turning away servicemen in uniform while accepting other customers. Club managers don't get to decide on appropriate military attire, the country already did that. That's why it is called a uniform and carries national insignia.

The "OMG they may be/get drunk" excuse doesn't work. Show us the last time you shut your doors to drunk football fans.

And my God, if the sight of the uniforms of the services "stirs them up", the uniform is the least of your problems.

To startermotor, that would be Seville Quarter I think.

[muttywhitedog]

I would imagine the chain of command had authorised it seeing as the funeral was with full military honours...

[GPMG]

It is not this case that I am being specific about. Yes it is wrong of the bar manager in this case to stop men and women in uniform entry.

However we unfortunately live in a PR focused world. That PR has to managed in a very clever way. At the moment the military are riding a wave of public support, and as much as I dislike the 'Red top' papers, a lot of this is thanks to them. There is also the sterling effort of Ross Kemp and others that have made the military mission part of the nations living room. The efforts and respect of the people of Wooton Basset have also put the sad result of war into the nations cohesive bowl of cereal in a way that no media hack could manage.

What worries me is that one day, the medja darlings will grow tired of the loyal support that they are showing. That one day we will see headlines saying 'So What' etc.
The media has a dreadful record of turning on those that it had 'big upped' only months before. Anyone who does not believe that the media control's the masses and also in many ways this country is a fool. The govt play up to popular opinion like puppies learning a new trick.
It is a sick and disgusting way for a country to be run, yet alone the United Kingdom. But it is something that the men and women in the forces have to deal with, as well as the rest of us, both ex forces and those that we protect /protected ( I am sure still would).

The Sun will report the debacle of members of an attached group to a Cdo unit pi$$ing on each other in Norway just as easily as it will report on a Cdo units heroic 60km advance to contact in Afghanistan (not properly reported nationaly, anyone who read that edition of the Globe and Laurel will know just how impressive that one op was, just like many that all UK land forces complete ever month).

The media is a double edged sword that I do not believe that can be tamed.
Reports of squaddies getting shunned by publicans may enrage us, but these reports need to be carefully monitored before the military story get's stale.

[Two's in]

GPMG - Spot on again about the fickleness of the Press.

Some of you miss the point that squaddies fighting to defend democratic principles sometimes have those same democratic priciples used against them. The Landlord is entirely within his rights to refuse entry to anyone he sees fit (or unfit). The fact that he chooses to turn away squaddies attending a funeral for a fallen comrade should tell you all you need to know about the moral compass and sympathies of this particular individual and his establishment.

[DKP1]

mmm what would you do if....

"Grant Page, manager at Phatz, said he turned the men away because he had been told that there were 100 soldiers who had been drinking all day and would be heading for his club."

Not sure I would open up my pub to 100 soldiers/servicemen who had been drinking all day... You can only go on what inteligence you have!

It seems that his decision wasnt based on the fact that they were in uniform!

Ducks for cover.......

BLOT BANG RUB

[Griz]

Wonder what would be said if he had turned people away because they were gay/black/religious/voted Labour etc?

Is it proper/legal to discriminate against someone because of the job they do?

[airborne_artist]

Griz - I'm pretty certain a bar owner/manager can refuse entry/to serve someone without giving a reason, in much the same way as shops do not have to sell you items.

[Griz]

That is very true. But if you do it on the basis of race/religion/sexual orientation/age, does it not then become a different issue?

[The Oberon]

Seem to remember not that long ago that a certain retired General was banned from a mess bar following a mates funeral because he, the General, had written a book !

[airborne_artist]

Griz - but it wasn't any of those, it was because they were wearing uniform, so it's not covered by age/sex/race discrimination legislation.

People have been refused employment because of their height/lack of it, for example, which is quite legal.

[Griz]

AA

My point is that you can't discriminate on the aforementioned grounds so why is it acceptable to do so because of someone's job?

[airborne_artist]

Acceptable and legal are two different viewpoints - the bar owner has offended some people, but he's not broken the law.

[artyhug]

Because Griz, taking the bar manager at his word, the decision was not made on the basis of their jobs but on the perceived chance of unwanted behaviour if '100 squaddies' were later all in the club.

By the same token countless bars and clubs will not allow anyone in wearing team colours or indeed baseball caps. It is an attempt to restrict tribal behaviour which when you have countless inebriated punters can lead to all manner of issues.

I, just as you, do not really know the full facts and it would seem that perhaps the establishment overreacted but lets not all get too het up over a relative non issue shall we...

[PPRuNe Pop]

FWIW

The act includes this:


This includes practices which might look fair but which have discriminatory side effects. It applies when an apparently neutral provision, criterion or practice disadvantages members of a specified group relative to others.

If someone actually said that 'they' can come in but 'not the squaddies.' The law looks clear but then again...

Further, on 20th May 2008 Bob Ainsworth made it clear the government would be criminalising acts of "discrimination against troops in unform."

Not sure if this has actually happened or not, but in the meantime a word in the ear of that manager or the brewery would not go amiss.

[Griz]

Exactly the point I was trying to make, albeit a bit more clumsier like!!

[Thaihawk]

Perhaps this bar needs extended visits from the HMRC,the Health and Safety Agency and a few other government agencies to ensure there is no illegal activity at this establishment.Of course,the bar will be closed when each government agency visits for the full length of the visit.Safety inspections and audits of food preparation areas can take a long while............

[Mick Strigg]

There is a vital fact that everyone is ignoring here: The MoD policy on wearing uniform in public was re-issued last year and the Army's Briefing Note ABN 31/08 clearly states:

c. Occasions on which uniform is not to be worn, unless specifically approved by the Chain of Command:

(1) When visiting public houses.

Any attempt to prosecute or take the landlord to task can and will be countered by this regulation.

Nevertheless, he was still a :mad:

[Say again s l o w l y]

It wasn't a smart move that's for certain, but I can undestand a bit about what the bar manager was thinking.

I was brought up in an army town and have seen first hand the chaos that can be caused when soldiers get a few drinks in them. From pitched battles between regiments causing hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage, to bouncers being chased out nightclubs and locked out after they tried to remove a pi**ed Para. It was funny seeing these steroid fuelled idiots being forcibly removed by large men with very short hair, well, it was funny until the military police turned up...

However, in this case, it was after a funeral that was well publicised, so it was a pretty idiotic thing to do. I would very much doubt that these guys would have started any trouble specifically because they were in uniform and as such far more easily identifiable. It's when they get changed into civvies and arrive en-masse after a long booze and woman free detachment that trouble normally starts.

In the PR war. Military 1. Bar manager -50.

[Chugalug2]

I understand and respect the more thoughtful points raised by those appealing against an over reaction. Of course they would be right if there was a call to storm and trash this wretched man's pub, but all that is being called for here is a boycott. Surely just as this manager was within his rights to turn away these squaddies, by the same token those who decry his actions and even his explanation are perfectly within their rights to shun his establishment and to encourage others to do likewise? Before the well known IRA inspired avoidance of wearing uniform in public there was a general discouragement to do so unnecessarily anyway, for fear of enraging tax payers resentful of the level of Defence expenditure of which they would be so suddenly reminded. That general "out of sight out of mind" was wrong then and even more so now. In those days there were some nasty spats involving our continual withdrawal from colonial obligations, but they were generally seen as unavoidable and having to be seen through to the end. Some posts above remind us that there is no such consensus these days. All the more important surely then that the Forces themselves, and in particular the awful dangers and ultimate price that they can pay, are seen (literally) as separate from the Government policies that they are obliged to serve? Appeasement has been shown to be self defeating time and time again. The great mass of the British public would be proud and supportive to see you in public, booted and spurred as it were. By being kept out of sight encourages those who are vocal in their opposition to Government policy to include in their damnation HM Forces as well. When support for them is seen to be general and profound that opposition will be isolated and hence diminished. I think that commercial operations would pick up on that effect and encourage rather than deny entry to those in uniform, perhaps by reduced tariffs as in the US. The Forces need to capitalise on their popularity with the British Public. Of course there is risk, but the upside is a win win scenario which should at least discourage the Ashted nimby syndrome. As to not drinking in pubs in uniform, that is for the CoC to decide on. It certainly wasn't the basis of this man's decision!

[cliffnemo]

Now this sort of thing should make every servicepersons’ blood boil.

AND EX SERVICEMEN. CLIFFNEMO