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Gaz ED
4th Aug 2009, 12:02
5th July
For the Tornados of 904 EAW, this week has provided the usual mix of overwatch in support of ground forces and tactical reconnaissance although two missions were directly in support of UK forces engaged in Operation Panthers Claw. At the start of the week one pair of Tornados were tasked to provide overwatch of a patrol moving through compounds; one Show of Force was carried out to assist the Friendly Forces as they advanced. A couple of days later another Show of Force was undertaken in support of NATO forces who were receiving small arms fire. The following day, another friendly patrol was receiving small arms fire and 2 Shows of Force were carried out to allow the patrol to break contact. A third Show of Force was performed when the patrol came under more fire from another compound. At the end of the week a pair of Tornados were called to support ground forces who were receiving accurate and effective fire. A weapon was dropped; the first from a Tornado in Afghanistan.
12th July Much of the flying this week for the Tornados of 904EAW has also been in support of Operation Panthers Claw. Nearly all daytime formations have either been tasked to support the operation or re-tasked once airborne in response to UK units coming into contact with enemy forces in the area. Many missions have involved searching treelines and compounds for enemy presence prior to and during the move of friendly patrols. Unfortunately, a number of others have been required to provide armed overwatch for convoys and foot patrols that have been attacked by roadside bombs; ensuring that the enemy does not intervene while casualties are evacuated. Early in the week, one pair of Tornados was called on to conduct a strafe attack on a number of insurgents in a treeline that were firing on a friendly unit while another was called to attack a number of enemy firing points in open country. Following confirmation that there were no civilians in the area, the Tornados released 3 weapons. Some days later a pair of Tornados provided overwatch for an Afghan National Security Forces patrol while casualties were evacuated and another pair conducted 2 Shows of Force in support of another friendly patrol. Later, an aircraft fired a missile at enemy forces; the first such event for a Tornado in Afghanistan. Later that day, a Tornado, low on fuel, transited to a tanker aircraft to top up. However, on arrival the pilot discovered that the tanker has just become unserviceable and consequently he could not take on fuel. He had no option but to return to base where he landed safely but with minimal fuel left. At the end of the week, a Tornado pair conducting Tactical Reconnaissance were re-tasked to support a UK patrol that had suffered a strike from a roadside bomb. As the patrol was receiving fire, a Tornado conducted a Show of Force. With enemy fire continuing, the Tornado carried out a strafe against identified enemy firing points
19th July
The slower tempo of the ground campaign this week has also resulted in a steadier week for the crews of the 904 EAW Tornados although the majority of their flying has again been in support of Operation Panther’s Claw. At the start of the week a Tornado pair provided overwatch for a patrol of Mastiff vehicles, searching the route ahead of the vehicles. A second pair conducted a Show of Force in support of a patrol who were receiving small arms fire. The following day, Tornados provided overwatch to a patrol of Afghan National Security Forces being mentored by a partner coalition nation as they patrolled through a village. Mid week, a civilian helicopter tragically crashed; Tornados provided overwatch for RAF Firefighters who responded to the incident. Coincidentally, the same day the Firefighters were collectively presented with an RAF Commendation for their selfless dedication supporting medical teams; their response to this incident and their willingness to volunteer for tasks such as this is a testament to the worthiness of the award. Also midweek, Tornados were tasked to support a patrol that had suffered a strike from a roadside bomb; a Show of Force was carried out to deter further enemy action while the patrol extracted themselves. A later pair of Tornados carried out a Show of Presence in support of an Afghan National Police patrol that was receiving small arms fire. The following day, another Show of Force was conducted to prevent enemy interference at the start of a convoy move. In all 4 Shows of Force and 2 Shows of Presence were conducted.

Mick Strigg
4th Aug 2009, 12:09
Why is this here?

Alpha Whiskey
4th Aug 2009, 12:21
As these things are usually UK Eyes Conf when they are piped into the Fuhrer Bunker at Northwood, I'm a but surprised to see this here.

Beadwindow??? :hmm:

stickmonkeytamer
4th Aug 2009, 12:24
Bit of Beadwindow action required Mods??

SMT

Grabbers
4th Aug 2009, 12:34
What's the difference betwixt a 'Show of Force' and a 'Show of Presence'?

Simmbob
4th Aug 2009, 12:35
I think you'll find that this article was published on the RAF's official website.

Gaz ED
4th Aug 2009, 12:35
Available at the RAF website on an internet near you....

RAF Operational Update - Ops Update - Jul 2009 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafoperationalupdate/opsupdate/opsupdatejul2009.cfm)

Just thought I'd post as people were asking how Tornado is getting on in Afghan.

Beadwindow - my hoop!:rolleyes:

Wrathmonk
4th Aug 2009, 12:37
Calm down, calm down!

No Beadwindow required - its a direct lift from the RAF open source available to Terry Taliban website..

Would have helped if he linked to here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafoperationalupdate/opsupdate/opsupdate05jul2009.cfm), here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafoperationalupdate/opsupdate/opsupdate12jul09.cfm) and here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafoperationalupdate/opsupdate/opsupdate19jul09.cfm) though!

Hand the keys to the Outrage Bus and the Black Omegas back in MT please!

Edit to add : Damn - too slow - my pesky one finger typing!

Grabbers
4th Aug 2009, 12:38
Beadwindow my Hoop? I say Gaz, steady on...

Gaz ED
4th Aug 2009, 12:46
Grabbers

"My Hoop" was used as an expression of disdain to the Beadwindow shouters out there. I shudder to think of the act of beadwindowing ones' hoop....:ok:

I is ded securty conshuss, me...........

stickmonkeytamer
4th Aug 2009, 12:58
There is a couple of bits of info in there that shouldn't be...

SMT

Violet Club
4th Aug 2009, 13:03
A weapon was dropped.

But was it a Paveway IV? Were any of them?

And then why did the weapons dropping stop?

HighTow
4th Aug 2009, 13:35
And then why did the weapons dropping stop? About 0' AGL.

green granite
4th Aug 2009, 13:40
Why is this here?

Perhaps a deliberate attempt to wind the beadwindow merchants up? :E

Yeoman_dai
4th Aug 2009, 13:57
Seems Gen MacCrystals tight ROE are in effect, judging by the lack of ordinance dropped.

Interesting to see that they've been called to do strafing runs, I bet that the FAC's appreciate that extra option over Harrier?

Grabbers
4th Aug 2009, 14:07
SMT

What stuff shouldn't be in there? Some Tornados did a thing with a thing somewhere? The baddies didn't like it and did a thing back? So we did another thing with another thing?

It is where the defence budget cash is going (as well as the next Naval Cocktail Party Vessel). Shirley it's a good idea for the MoD to tell the taxpayer why we may need xx//yy/zz in the future?

Is it a secret we are in Af******tan?

I still preferred looking at the Admin Clerk with the rack on C5 though.

Wrathmonk
4th Aug 2009, 14:44
SMT

There is a couple of bits of info in there that shouldn't be...


Can't see it myself but best you contact this chap then:

RAF Webmaster
Room 65, Lancaster Block
Air Command
RAF High Wycombe
Buckinghamshire
HP14 4UE

or e-mail via here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/contactus/contactwebmaster.cfm).

Addresses taken from the RAF website before anyone thinks I am releasing a secret address.:E

Never Alert
4th Aug 2009, 15:15
Grabbers, check PM.

Finnpog
4th Aug 2009, 15:51
But perhaps it will be stories like this that might cool the Tornado nay-sayers when comparing it to the Harrier.

(Not knocking the Harrier mates or the plane here)

I still cannot to to grips with the argument that for these type of Ops how having a second pair of eyes in the a/c and working the systems is a bad thing - particularly as there are now such sensors as SNIPER et al which assist with Recce and need watching.

I know I asked on here sometime ago about why Single Seat is "the way forward" - as even with the improved <<Insert name of classified IT systems of your choice>> to reduce to workload - surely a problem shared is also someone who will buy you a drink back at the Mess / Wardroom.

Yeoman_dai
4th Aug 2009, 16:30
I'm so new into the aviation world in terms of experience i'm not quite into Grading yet, so I must ask - Finnpog seems to make sense? It's always struck me that why do, say, Helicopters need two crew or even three for 'grey' Merlin, whilst Harrier only has one, when surely it flies further and performs more crew intensive duties - as Finn mentioned, and that goes double for counter insurgency operations? Is the reason Harrier only has a single seat because of these new systems/the small size of the aircraft?

For ground attack in Afghanistan, even before GR4 went out there wasn't the big twin seat F15 strike eagles the preferred aircraft for CAS? I remember reading in 'Joint Force Harrier' that it got to the point where the OC of the Dutch F16 squadron complained his pilots weren't getting any of the 'good' sorties?


As I say, just looking to expand knowledge.

LateArmLive
4th Aug 2009, 17:06
Is the reason Harrier only has a single seat because of these new systems/the small size of the aircraft?

No, it's down to the ability of the pilots.

Chris Kebab
4th Aug 2009, 17:12
...and the fact that most Harrier pilots are dwarfs.

LateArmLive
4th Aug 2009, 17:16
Well, it is a small cockpit.

dead_pan
4th Aug 2009, 18:23
What's the difference betwixt a 'Show of Force' and a 'Show of Presence'?


Could someone put us ignoramuses out of our misery please. Does the latter involve giving Terry Taleban a stern look or something?

Data-Lynx
4th Aug 2009, 19:20
It would make sense if a Show of Force was low enough to display not only that you are 'tooled-up' but also a chance to expose your elegant moustache. Whereas a Show of Presence is merely just low enough to make sure they know you are not a Yank.

airborne_artist
4th Aug 2009, 19:27
What's the difference betwixt a 'Show of Force' and a 'Show of Presence'?

I believe the latter has been misheard and it is actually a Shower of Presents - the directional consultant pulls back the canopy and throws out attractive trinkets to the natives - chewing gum, mirrors, beads, nylon stockings etc. to show them how nice life will be when they give up their AK47s ;)

MAINJAFAD
4th Aug 2009, 21:26
What interests me is this line....Later, an aircraft fired a missile at enemy forces; the first such event for a Tornado in Afghanistan.First use of Brimstone or has somebody confused a LGB with a missile?

L J R
5th Aug 2009, 15:50
You don't really expect the UK RAF Media to actually know what they are on about do you?

Data-Lynx
11th Aug 2009, 10:26
grabbers & dead pan. It appears that an answer on Show of Force/Presence is available in the 4th edition of AP 3000 British Air and Space Power Doctrine (http://www.airpowerstudies.co.uk/0159_09SJD%20Booklet%20Air%20Power%20Doctrine%20Single%20Pag es.pdf), provided on the Net by the RAF Centre for Air Power Studies (http://www.airpowerstudies.co.uk/ap3000.htm). For Show of Force, search for Flexibility:Air power is innately flexible and it can be used to deliver a wide range of effects, both kinetic and non-kinetic, across all levels of warfare. For example, a flight of Harriers operating in Afghanistan in July 2007 delivered a strategic level attack against a key leadership target, then provided surveillance support to a tactical land forces operation using high resolution targeting pods, and finally flew a nonkinetic show of force to disperse a crowd threatening a friendly patrol – all within a matter of minutes. Increasing numbers of air platforms are being provided with genuinely multi-role capabilities, further underpinning flexibility and agility.
The background is under "Role 4 Attack and Coercion". The Graduated Threat or Use of Force provides an ability to coerce an adversary by holding him at continuous risk. The demonstrable capability to attack an adversary underpins a graduated range of credible threats, from diplomatic warning and military signalling, including operational and tactical level non-kinetic demonstrations of power, ...
For Show of Presence, try "Counter-Air Operations for Psychological Effect". Air power is not employed solely for kinetic purposes. The psychological impact of air power, from the presence of a UAV to the noise generated by an approaching attack helicopter, has often proved to be extremely effective in exerting influence, especially when linked to information operations.
Am impressed that MoD has agreed to release AP3000, despite the disclosure:This information is released by the United Kingdom Government to a recipient Government for defence purposes only. It may be disclosed only within the defence department of a recipient Government, except as otherwise authorised by the MOD.

Pontius Navigator
11th Aug 2009, 17:32
What's the difference betwixt a 'Show of Force' and a 'Show of Presence'?

I found this through Google.

air support in combination with the show-of-presence routes throughout the country

I would guess therefore is that the aircraft were demonstrated to be present and thus capable of offensive action.

And

Show of force is a military term for an operation intended to warn or intimidate an opponent and to showcase one's own capability or will to act if provoked.

military forces on a tactical level using mock attacks to deter potential opponents, especially when a real attack on suspected (but unconfirmed) enemies might harm civillians

I think that makes a clear distinction without adding any informed opinion.

Pontius Navigator
11th Aug 2009, 21:31
kinetic and nonkinetic as descriptions. This seems to be some kind of euphemism for lethal and non-lethal !

I think the kinetic and non-kinetic are only two of several weapons effects.

I will not try and guess how they may be categorised except to say that a kinetic energy weapon is essentially a chemically inert weapon :)

One example is the flechette warhead on a CRV7 rocket as opposed to an explosive (or chemical) warhead. In this context I mean chemicals that create an explosive effect rather than a posion. An inert 1000lb LGB will have a kinetic effect when delivered at 500kts.

As implied before, a non-kinetic (energy) weapon might not even deliver a lethal effect.

The Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) was originally intended to be used by American warships to warn incoming vessels approaching without permission, and some reports claim that this is now a "non-lethal weapon".

It is certainly non-kinetic or more accurately an acoustic-energy weapon. Another acoustic energy weapon non-lethal weapon is the stun grenade. It is used to confuse, disorient, or distract a potential threat and can seriously degrade the combat effectiveness of affected personnel for up to a minute with a flash and deafening (170-180 dB SPL) blast. This grenade can be used to incapacitate people, generally without causing serious injury.

Equally it is a chemical energy weapon :) even if non-lethal.

Tartan Stazi
12th Aug 2009, 09:43
PN

Non-kinetic refers to attacks such as cyber-warfare/Information operations/ shows of force and psy ops etc. Any weapon that releases energy or explosive is deemed kinetic.

Rgds
TS

Pontius Navigator
12th Aug 2009, 10:24
TS,

I accept what you say however now that we are using non-explosive kinetic energy munitions I suspect the definitions are a little fluid.

See what you mean though, the chemical energy used to fragment an artillery round creates a kinetic energy weapon from the frag debris.

KiloB
12th Aug 2009, 11:24
I can understand the use of 'Show of Force' for dispersal of a threatening crowd, or enemy forces gathering in a location, but when your ground forces are already taking fire it seems a strange choice.

Also, how long before the 'Profile' is recognised and the Taliban set up a suitable '23mm reception' around a few guys waving AKs.

KB

LateArmLive
13th Aug 2009, 10:53
They're taking their time to recognise the profile.......been at it since 2004.

TEEEJ
27th Sep 2009, 16:53
RAF unveils Brimstone precision strike missile | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/26/brimstone-missile-video-afghanistan-raf)

TJ

Easy Street
27th Sep 2009, 22:45
Now we all know the Tornado never gets any decent press coverage, but for the Grauniad to credit that DMS Brimstone video to the Harrier force takes the p*** a bit considering Harrier can't do either version of Brimstone operationally yet! Since DMS Brimstone has only been in Afghan since June (i.e. with the GR4) it looks like the Grauniad's date for the video is hoop as well....

I wonder if Mark Lancaster would care to review the additional capabilities fielded by GR4 (compared with GR9) and perhaps revisit his misguided series of parliamentary questions?

Tester_76
28th Sep 2009, 15:06
Email sent to the "journalist" - wonder if they'll correct the story...

sonicstomp
28th Sep 2009, 18:55
Difference between the 2 is the height they are flown at....

recce_FAC
2nd Oct 2009, 23:16
Sorry Dai but the GR-7/9 is the daddy of all jets when it comes to CAS. 27 mike mike or not.GR-4 mates will dig out blind for you but the Harrier is the one to get the job done.

recce_FAC
2nd Oct 2009, 23:20
About 4500 ft difference. Of course it depends on how big the pilots kahoonas are as well. RAF and the French are pretty damn good at this business.