Dont Worry lads...we've ordered some more Typhoons instead

[wokkam8]

In a week when the shortage of helicopters in Afghanistan has been about the one thing that politicians from all sides have agreed upon (standfast our dour Presbyterian leader who cant bear to spend a penny more on defence than the absolute bare minimum) I am delighted to see the procurement of a further 40 Typhoon aircraft. Just what we need. No more lift capacity at the coalface to replace the ageing relics operating at and beyond the limits of their envelopes but instead another 40 airshow jets designed to fight yesterday's war. I am astounded...

[CirrusF]

The contract was irrevocably signed in about 1995 - about five years after the "Options for Change" defence review...

[LateArmLive]

Don't let that stop you moaning though.........

[Ali Barber]

And they may be useful in fighting the next war? Ordered in 95 and when will they be delivered? That's a hell of lead time if you're fighting a major conventional war.

[NURSE]

And what complaints will there be if there is no CAS aircraft to support the troops dropped of by the Helicopters?

If you want an airforce that can drop troops into trouble but do little or nothing but watch them die from the edge of threat envelope fine bin the typhoon order and order shed fulls of chinooks etc but when the troops on the ground are in contact and need something bigger than a minigun to support them they need a something with a little bit of punch. Typhoon is being procured to replace the Jaguar as well as the Tonka F3 remember Jaguar.....single seat ground attack aircraft used to live in coltishall used to be wheeled out periodically to drop bombs on people. Was gapped to save money!!

[CirrusF]

If you want an airforce that can drop troops into trouble but do little or nothing but watch them die from the edge of threat envelope fine bin the typhoon order and order shed fulls of chinooks etc but when the troops on the ground are in contact and need something bigger than a minigun to support them they need a something with a little bit of punch. Typhoon is being procured to replace the Jaguar as well as the Tonka F3 remember Jaguar.....single seat ground attack aircraft used to live in coltishall used to be wheeled out periodically to drop bombs on people.


That was exactly what the French thought back in 93 or so - RAF were insisting that Eurofighter should be primarily an air-defence swing role aircraft, but the French wanted an aircraft that would be useful in CAS and could also fly off aircraft carriers. Hence they built Rafale instead - which is still a decent fighter in the highly unlikely event that it's air defence capability would be needed - but is also a useful carrier and CAS strike aircraft. It is a shame we didn't listen back then....

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Nurse said
And what complaints will there be if there is no CAS aircraft to support the troops dropped of by the Helicopters?


Well said that man! When will you lot learn that RW are for the Army and fixed wing for the RAF.( Apologies to the RN- but I hope you get to keep both.)

[knocker88]

I find that statement rubbish! Helicopters don't operate at the edge of the threat envelope! We actually go through it and remain in it! Also, we don't stand and watch them troops die - we go in and get them once the ARMY COMMANDERS take into account the "risk factor" of rescuing injured men/women or losing a helicopter.

[Flyt3est]

Anyway, look on the bright side, at least they didn't give the cash to some bank full of red braces wearing w:mad:ers in london. They may have bought useless kit, but at least they bought kit..:ugh:

[hulahoop7]

What was the UK supposed to do -

1. not order and get hit by fines of an order which would be worse that buying them and sticking them in a shed - or burning them.

2. order at a reduced level which makes savings and leaves us with a minimum level of capability to meet potential future threats - as well as providing a very good multi role aircraft.

Sorry but the while the government might get many things wrong, they got this decision right.

[knowitall]

"but is also a useful carrier and CAS strike aircraft. It is a shame we didn't listen back then...."

at least typhoon can self designate using its own targeting pod, as opposed to having an Etandard do the job for it

Rafale will be decent CAS asset as will typhoon, they've both had their share of development problems

[AQAfive]

The problem is, more often than not, the contract is written in such a way that to cancel the ac would cost more than to deliver them and at least we can then provide employment for BAES.

You must also remember that the gold braid at the top table are invariably Twin Wing Master Race fast jet and understand little else. They then have to fight with the Navy and Army over the scraps on the table using what must be the most inefficient and useless procurement system in existence. The system is flawed and is doomed to failure. For those that would argue I merely point to HC47 Mk3. (sorry thats Chinook Mk 3 in UK parlance, confused my designators)

To plan for the future is so difficult, what will be the threat in the future? We always buy our defence equipment for peacetime ops, then when the balloon goes up, we add weapons needed. An expensive and silly way of doing it, but it reduces the defence bill at the time. We add the weapons using the additional money from the contingency fund, except this bunch insists you take it from the current defence budget which then plays havoc with current projects and introduces yet more delays. A simplistic view I know, but in essence accurate. Add to that the fact that modern ac are software driven and time and costs escalate. I would love a £1 for every time I have heard a senior neddy saying 'you only need to change the software, that cant be very hard'. It may not be hard, but it is expensive and time consuming. Testing cannot be shortened, if you try you end up with an Ariane 5 situation. (It blew up it cos the software thought it had the performance bounds of an Ariane 4, they never tested it because it worked on Ariane 4)

So easy to criticise, not so easy to solve without vast sums of money. I certainly don't know whether we should have carriers AND Trident AND more vehicles AND Helios AND........so it goes on. What I do know is that socialist governments do not consider defence a priority, far from it. I read an article from the RAF in 1968. The Russians had invaded Czechoslovakia, had blotted all comms and EW frequencies in the process and we were powerless in the west to do anything about it without risking WW3. At the same time the (Labour) government were announcing the cuts being made to the RAF post the withdrawal from the East. So nothing changes.

So should we send more helos to Afghanistan, I don't know but I suspect we do, but the present government sees it as expensive and wont do it.

Sorry for waffling, I could go on..........

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

And what complaints will there be if there is no CAS aircraft to support the troops dropped of by the Helicopters?

The Army Apaches seem to be doing a good job at supporting the troops on the ground and it packs a punch that is MUCH more effective than a minigun.

Remember the RAF's current mantra, "Typhoon is the answer, what’s the question?"

[NURSE]

I am aware the RAF will go in to get them out however if the plan is we need to stay on the ground and Apache isn't enough you do need to ramp up a bit. And yes today Harrier/Tornado are doing the Job how about 5-10 years time?
Or will it be Phone good old uncle sam? and what if we're playing by oursevles somewhere that isn't Afghanistan? The mantra of we don't need this capability in Afghanistan is very short sighted. What if we'd gone down that line in the 70's/80's Falklands would have been interesting with some NI patrol boats Makraloned Land Rovers and Baton Guns as Northern Ireland was real and the Russians comming over the IGB was only played out on exercises. The Armed forces seam to have developed tunnel vision or is it they've dropped into the political 5 year cycle.
The Armed forces needs to be much more flexible than what it is turning into. Yesterday one of the Editorials talked about the reconfigured military medical services set up to deal with small numbers of casualties from peace keeping ops. It would appear our whole armed forces will soon be set up to fight COIN so I hope the next conflict we end up involved is COIN and not high intensity warfighting.

[CirrusF]

at least typhoon can self designate using its own targeting pod, as opposed to having an Etandard do the job for it

True - but at least Rafale is out in Afghanistan already doing CAS, already flying off carriers, and already also remfing about in an air-defence role.

It could also have flown off the new carriers which we might now never get, especially when the americans cancel F-35 leaving us with no aircraft to fly off it...

[NURSE]

Given the stage of build the carriers are at I would sugest that the could be converted to conventional carriers with Cat & trap. And hopefully there are plans to do this. Also since they are bigger than the Charles De Gaulle it might be easier to operate. But converting it will add delay & cost but then the delay may be needed to sort out a Rafael or JSF contract.

[wokkam8]

"If you want an airforce that can drop troops into trouble but do little or nothing but watch them die from the edge of threat envelope fine bin the typhoon order and order shed fulls of chinooks etc but when the troops on the ground are in contact and need something bigger than a minigun to support them they need a something with a little bit of punch" - NURSE

Well said that man! When will you lot learn that RW are for the Army and fixed wing for the RAF" - ROG

The pair of you have unwittingly demonstrated the attitude of the upper echelons of the light blue with regard to helicopers; that is that helicopters are not our domain, never will be and they are too intrinsically linked with the Field Army. Secondly as the Air Force board is run by the FJ mafia, vested interests in investing in strike/attack will always prevail over those of their poor rotary cousins. In fact the creation of the JHC was a poorly disguised attempt to wash their hands of helicopters. Finally the remark about requiring something 'with a little bit of punch' is ill-informed in the extreme. Take a look at the mentions in dispatches, gallantry medals and citations awarded to rotary mates versus those of FJ crews in Afghanistan. It is the helicopter crews who time and time again put everything on the line to support the troops on the ground, who deal with appalling brownout conditions flying at and beyond the capacity of their aircraft to evacuate casualties, deliver ammunition and water whilst being engaged by an ever intelligent, innovative an cunning enemy. Im sorry but dropping ordnance from altitude and the occasional 'show of force' at 420 knots is utterly incomparable. Unfortunately until those in the ivory tower can speak without using the word Typhoon in every other sentence and plastering photos of it over every website, publication and piece of correspondence then they are unlikely to put up any opposition to the government's chronic under-investment in helicopters.

[RBuzzer]

wokkam8 - Perfectly put. If only more people in the wider Airforce/MOD realised how much Rotary mates actually put themselves and their crews lives on the line on a daily basis maybe there would be a little more appreciation from the 'FJ Mafia'. But still at least they are defending us from a Russian invasion right? Thank god for that.

Like Wokkam said - how many DFC's have been awarded to the FJ force of late??? They are going to become standard issue at Odiham at this rate.

And frankly statements like 'When will you lot learn that RW are for the Army and fixed wing for the RAF' and ' an airforce that can drop troops into trouble but do little or nothing but watch them die from the edge of threat envelope' clearly show that you have no appreciation for how times have changed and what is actually happening in Afghanistan. The amount of lives that have been saved by Apache crews and Chinook IRT shouts IN THE THREAT ENVELOPE (where we spend most our time!) is a testament to that.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

show that you have no appreciation for how times have changed and what is actually happening in Afghanistan.


Not so, old boy. I just happen to believe that the Army should have the RW and leave the fixed wing stuff for the RAF. I have every respect for the outstanding job being done by too few, on too little and far more resources should be made available (should have been available before embarking on the operation). However it should be Army RW. It's only my opinion, you don't have to agree. At no time have I denigrated the courage and professionalism shown by RW pilots (Army and RAF) so there's no need to discuss the following
If only more people in the wider Airforce/MOD realised how much Rotary mates actually put themselves and their crews lives on the line on a daily basis maybe there would be a little more appreciation from the 'FJ Mafia'.

If your real bitch is that you feel undervalued then I entirely understand and agree with you ( I was a navigator after all and can see it from your perspective) However, if the Army was to "have" the RW assets then the rest of the RAF could get on with their job of operating fixed wing aircraft.
Doubtless some other group would have a bitch but 'twas ever thus.

[NURSE]

Persoanlly i think the RW fleet are under valued by the airforce. Yet the RW fleet have decades more operational experience than most of the other fleets in the airforce.
They have their place they also have their limitations. The Apache is a great support platform but CAS needs to have more layers than a single platform and fixed wing provide that. Just as Ground based artillery can as well and actually artillery is the better option as its usually more responsive if in range and is usually around for longer periods than Fixed or rotary winged assets.
This playing kingdoms is what the armed forces is descending into yet it is ment to be an integrated force with each bit playing its part. Unfortunatley with the funding problems someone elses gain is seen as a loss for someone else. Added to which everything is seen in the context of Afghanistan and the current not the near or distant future or anywhere else in the world.
Unless we decide we are going to reduce our armed forces to a home only orginisation something at the top needs to change dramatically.

[LowObservable]

What I'm hearing here is that the UK should cancel Typhoons, which are replacing aircraft that have been in combat in Afghanistan, thereby saving no money, and then use that no money to buy helicopters which (even if they could be acquired with no money) would eventually (three-four years from now counting lead time and training) displace US helicopters in theatre.

But it's all about boots on the ground...