Belvedere HC1

[rjtjrt]

Why did the Belvedere HC1 have such a pronounced high front undercarriage compared to rear, thus sitting on ground with such a pronounced fuselage angle?

[mustpost]

Copied from a Piasecki HRP-1/ H-21 which was shaped so that The HRP-1 was nicknamed the "flying banana" because of the upward angle of the aft fuselage that ensured the large rotors did not hit each other in flight.

[wub]

Copied from a Piasecki HRP-1/ H-21 which was shaped so that

Well, that's complete rubbish, the Belvedere didn't look anything like the Piasecki, the undercarriage of which was of similar height fore and aft

[AvroLincoln]

According to "Bristol Aircraft since 1910" by C.H.Barnes (page 369 in my copy), the front of the fuselage was higher than the rear for loading of a ventral weapon bay. The preceding civilian Type 173 had its fuselage horizontal, so there may be some truth in that statement.

[Evalu8ter]

IIRC the Belvedere was originally designed as a naval ac, and the high front undercarriage was meant to facilitate the loading of torpedos / depth bombs.

It also caused a number of broken ankles from pilots leaping out if the avpin starter caught fire....one of the donks being directly behind the RHS.

[Fareastdriver]

the Belvedere was originally designed as a naval ac, and the high front undercarriage was meant to facilitate the loading of torpedos / depth bombs.

Absolutely correct. The Bevelgear was originally all Navy which is why they designed it that way. They couldn't fit it into carrier lifts so the Navy threw it out of its pram. The Westminster was scrubbed and the RAF got the Belvedere.

No straps, doors open and the ladders in place until the front engine was started.

At least one was a cut & shut from two and when they scrapped them at Seleter they found that the war reserve in the MU had the same serial number as one on the squadron.

[Saint Jack]

Yes, as Fareastdriver says, the Belvedere was originally intended for the Royal Navy as a torpedo carrier and the nose-high attitude on the ground was to facilitate arming and re-arming, it also kept the front of the foreward rotor disc at a safe height above the people performing these tasks. But - as explained to me by an old ex-Navy man - the physical size of the helicopter and the absence of rotor blade folding capability for deployment on ships had the Royal Navy staff rolling on the ground holding their stomachs at first sight of it! So it was 'offered' to the Royal Air Force.

The nose-high attitude on the ground did indeed pose several problems, the first was the height of the cockpit above the ground and the propensity of the avpin starter to explode on start-up. The avpin 'initiator' was a three-cartridge breech giving, in theory, three starts before it had to be replenished. But all too often all three cartridges would go off together producing a helluva bang and usually an avpin fire (avpin is a monofuel so spcial fire fighting equipment and trained personnel were a pre-requisite to Belvedere operations). The first thing you were told on a Belvedere unit was never, never stand in line with the starter exhaust. The starter system for the front engine was right behind the pilots back and, as fareastdriver says, the access ladder was left in place and the cockpit window open for all starts - just in case.

The other problem associated with the nose-high attitude on the ground was that access to the cabin was via a similar, but slightly shorter, ladder. This made rapid troop embarkation/disembarkation almost impossible.

Nevertheless, the Belvedere was good as an external lifter and cargo hauler and performed excellent work in the far east during Confrontation. But it was a bugger to maintain and it is often said that it required 33 maintenance man-hours per flight hour.

[Good Vibs]

I read somewhere once that the people who worked with the Belvedere always commented : Two Engines, Two Rotors, Two Pilots & Too Much Trouble!

[Fareastdriver]

The Belvedere development designs went right up to a twin Gnome version with the engines mounted at the back driving both rotors like the Chinook. Unfortunately widening the fuselage to a container shape like Vertol did would have been beyond the imagination of Westlands.

[Evalu8ter]

Fareastdriver,
As a Chinook driver, I found the Belvedere a fascinating creature when the RAF Museum let me crawl around their example a few years back. That step for the pax/troops must have been a hinderence (a ramp is so much easier..) and wriggling past the engine from the cabin to behind the LHS was a feat of dexterity that doesn't bear thinking about in the humidity of the Far East. Hats off to all of you guys who flew her, and set an enduring example.

[D120A]

Just for the record, I believe the last Belvedere flights in the UK were those of XG455 in February/March 1967. This aircraft had been damaged whilst on the OCU (SRCU, the Short Range Conversion Unit) at RAF Odiham, and was in 2nd Line undergoing a lengthy repair when I inherited it in 1966. By February 67 it was ready for flight test, and one bemused Wessex instructor (and former Belvedere operator) was given a special Transport Command category to fly it. Muggins ("Graham, I am not flying that bl***y thing unless you come with me") went as flight test observer on its first post-repair flight on 15 February 1967, and again on 3 March to swing its compass and cover a few remaining flight test points. It behaved magnificently and shortly afterwards flew to Marchwood military port near Southampton for shipping to the Far East.

Apparently No 66 Squadron at RAF Seletar, the last to operate the Belvedere, was disbanded the day before the aircraft arrived in Singapore, and it was scrapped there without ever flying again.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

I have a vague recollection of seeing a TV programme many years ago which included a segment about the construction of Liverpool (?) Cathedral. I'm sure that I saw a Belvedere used to lower the spire into place, and somebody talking on the radio using 'posh words and accents' to instruct the pilot.

Ring any bells with anybody?

[wub]

It was Coventry Cathedral

Video - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting (http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2zscsh0&s=3)

[Speedbird48]

Hi Guys,

If you thought the version of the Belvedere that was issued to the squadrons was bad, you should have tried the development version!!!

I went from Northolt in a Sycamore of the Met' Comm Sqdn. to Odiham where the development flight had just been set up. We were invited to fly the beast and that version had wooden blades, al la Sycamore, and no power controls, only bungees!! 20mins was about all you could take before giving the beast to the other guy.

This was about the time that Westlands and Bristol were merging and I believe Westlands/Sikorsky had the power control issue tied up in patents.

The later ones were easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Speedbird 48.

[WASALOADIE]

Was this the flypast you are referring to?


YouTube - Belvedere Flypast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrtsk8-oXBA)

[Fareastdriver]

All the effort rebuilding the Belevere at Odiham, (I remember watching the ground runs with windsocks on the blades) was rewarded with it going into the MU at Seletar as the war reserve.
The final flypast was in March 1969. The above post is correct and I have one taken of them taken from Changi as they toured the Island.
Immediately after the flypast the were all scrapped including the war reserve which joined a sister aircraft with the same serial number, probably XG455.

[forget]

Immediately after the flypast the were all scrapped ....

Not entirely scrapped. I remember the hull/cockpit of one aircraft lying behind a building on West Camp around 1975/76. I believe it was recovered for the RAF museum exhibit.

[NutLoose]

We used to have one of them in the Hanger on the OCU, that and the Sycamore sitting out front.

I remember our Flight Sergeant who worked on them regailing of an incident on a display when one crashed, from what he told me it was doing a display and was carrying Gurkas, unfortunately in the rush during it's performance the Gurkas were never strapped in as they boarded and as they did a tactical flare all the Gurkas went sliding down the back resulting in a sever lack out of balance trim and the rear rotors hitting the ground and it all ending in tears.....

Whether it is true or not I do not know, but it was one of those things I always remembered.

[D120A]

Thank you Fareastdriver for the correction on XG455's fate. All our efforts at Odiham were not quite as futile as I had been led to believe. For years in the RAF Museum, in front of the Belvedere exhibit there was a photograph of XG455 in its first hover after the Odiham repair, taken by the station photographer Cpl Hurrell. Unfortunately it is Crown Copyright so I cannot post it here.

This was not a celebratory photograph, it was organised by some cynic who wanted photographic evidence of the accident for the Board of Inquiry! In fact the aircraft flew beautifully, a slight one/per at 60kts according to my notes, but otherwise very smooth. Before it had gone into ASF, its vibration was such that it used to remove teeth fillings. :oh:

Speechless Two hasn't come back yet, but when he does I think he may have been driving one of those RN Wessex 5s in the Youtube clip!

[IB4138]

One still exists in the Manchester Museum of Science and technology:

http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL917/4462689/21730096/358338787.jpg

http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL917/4462689/21730096/358338760.jpg

XG454

[Fareastdriver]

Nutloose. I think that the Belevere your Flt Sgt was talking about ended up as the front half of the Cut-&-Shut example.

[SincoTC]

There's also Bristol Belvedere HC Mk.1, XG452, C/n. 13347 at the Helicopter Museum at Weston Super Mare, but it is listed as currently under going major restoration so I'm not sure if it's on view at the moment.

The Helicopter Museum, the World's Largest Dedicated Helicopter Museum. (http://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk/bristol.htm)

[NutLoose]

Thanks Far East Driver, he said it was a frightful contraption that burst into flames at the drop of a hat.

Sadly Arthur is no longer with us I have been informed of late, but he was a Gent of the first order. I still refer to the first two Chinooks we recieved on the OCU as Flirty Gerty and Firey Fred, the nicknames he bestoed on FG and FF

[Matt Skrossa]

I seem to recall that the prototype Belvedere took a very long time (Over a year I think) to actual engage the rotors following engine start, ground resonance being the main problem and another reason for the strange oleo length/configuration.

Surely if the Belvedere was intended for the RN then their Lordships would have stipulated how big it could be and that it should have folding rotor blades etc, rather than wait until it had been built/flown?

[D120A]

"Surely if the Belvedere was intended for the RN then their Lordships would have stipulated how big it could be and that it should have folding rotor blades etc, rather than wait until it had been built/flown?"


You might think that Matt, I couldn't possibly comment...

[Saint Jack]

Wasalodie:

I haven't seen that Belvedere flypast movie clip for a very long time. But my memory suggests it was in late '66, not late '67. If you could look very, very closely, you could see me riding in the cabin of one of them and sticking my head out of the rear escape hatch taking photographs.
Belvedere experts would have noticed that at least one of the helicopters was fitted with rotating beacon anti-collision lights, this was probably the last significant modification embodied on the aircraft.

I was trying to think who might have shot the movie, most of the camera angles seem to be from Seletar East Camp, where 66 Sqdn was located, but with one or two from West Camp. I remember three people on 66 Sqdn who were movie buffs, one was a Flt. Lt. pilot who was probably flying that day, the other two were both Corporals, one an airframe fitter and the other an instrument man (I think).

Also, the tail of a Beverley visible behind the Seletar control tower reminds me that these aircraft used to make occasional trips to Vietnam, but I could never determine the purpose, remember this was '66/'67 and there was a war going on.

Fareastdriver:

The 'windsocks' on the main rotor blades were to prevent over-speed of the rotors during engine high power runs on the ground. They were referred to as 'blade bags' (about 6" diameter and 18" long and closed at the rear end) that were attached to the blade trailing edge about half-way along the length.


I'm amazed at the amont of interest this helicopter has generated here. So for those of you who like trivia, here is a question: How do you change the rear engine of a Belvedere? Hint: You lost sleep about having to do it in the jungle.

[sycamore]

S-J, go to stores and p/u a big shovel ....

[Fareastdriver]

I am sure that the flypast was in 1969 when they disbanded. You can see a Whirlwind getting airborne with them. That was the 'whipper-in' that accompanied them all around Singapore.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote by Saint Jack
Also, the tail of a Beverley visible behind the Seletar control tower reminds me that these aircraft used to make occasional trips to Vietnam, but I could never determine the purpose, remember this was '66/'67 and there was a war going on.

Care to cast further light into the shadows? Please.
Be lucky
David

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC the Air Attache had a Devon or a Pembroke at Saigon. In the late sixties some of our fitters used to go there to service it. There was no law against flying to Saigon. The embassy had to be fed and watered so a Beverley could deliver it to them.

[Lyneham Lad]

In April (or May) 1966, as a spotty teenage SAC AMechA I was detached from 390MU (Seletar) to the 66 Sqn Detachment at Kuching in order to help them with structural modifications and Cat2 Assist repairs.

But all too often all three cartridges would go off together producing a helluva bang and usually an avpin fire (avpin is a monofuel so spcial fire fighting equipment and trained personnel were a pre-requisite to Belvedere operations).

One thing that sticks in my mind was that during the introductory tour around the Sqn of being ushered up into the front of one and being shown where, earlier that day the cartridge housing had detached from it's mounting (when all three cartidges had fired simultaneously) and hit the Avpin tank. Somewhat understandably, the occupant of the RHS had needed to retire to the basha for a change of underwear...

[virgo]

One of the stories told to me by a good friend, who was on Belvederes in Aden, concerned the tendency of the liquid starter, (located under the pilot's seat) to explode................... An MOD modification was proposed which would have placed a great sheet of half-inch armour plating between the starter and the pilot's posteria, however, this would have further reduced the already inadequate payload and was vetoed by the squadron CO and Engineering Officer. Their answer was to introduce a much simpler mod. and amend the start procedures;

All of the start controls were on the captain's right-hand side. (Remember helicopter captains sit in the RH seat).The pilot would complete all the pre-start checks and then vacate his seat to stand in the gangway between the seats..............He would then pick up the locally manufactured "Starting Tool" which consisted of a long stick with a large nail sticking through it............using the tool, he would press the starter button from a safe distance and if the start was successful he would stow the tool and return to his seat to accomplish the rest of the flight.

Total cost, about a quid, weight penalty, about 8 ounces, improvement to pilot's morale 100 %.

Absolutely true, I am assured ??????

[Lyneham Lad]

Virgo wrote:-
concerned the tendency of the liquid starter, (located under the pilot's seat) to explode.

My memory from my detachment to Kuching is that the verically-mounted engine had the cartridge starter mounted on the right-hand-side and the Avpin tank was situated on the starboard fuselage side, nicely positioned in line with said cartridge housing... There was only a curtain separating the seat occupant from the whizz-bang componentry :eek:

[Tankertrashnav]

Just to get the year right - the 66 Squadron disbandment flypast was definitely 1967. I was station fire officer at Seletar at the time and watched it from the tower. I have a black and white photo somewhere I took at the time.

We used to dread Avpin fires on start up. We had one at Seletar which resulted in minor damage to the aircraft, and one minor injury - "pilot broke ankle jumping out of aircraft when fire started". (See post #5 by Evalu8tor). The height of the front fuselage off the ground was certainly a factor! Shortly before I took over as fire officer (thankfully) one burned to a black smudge on the tarmac on AOC's inspection day. No marks to the fire section that day!

[tornadoken]

MoS funded Bristol in April,1947(!; prototype build ITP, 1950) for a 10-seater, T.173, cut-and-shut from 2xT.171 (Sycamore, Leonides) power trains. RN had explored rotors for ASW since Cierva Autogiro, then Sikorsky R-4 Hoverfly; with MSP-$ RN in 1951 was assigned Gannet AS.1 for real carriers, wooden Short Seamew for escort carriers, and 18 Bell HSL-1 on other sterns. That type failed, so in 1954 T.191(Napier Gazelle) was funded for RN, T.192 for RAF, T.193 for RCN and T.194 civil variant. RCN soon fled to Piaseki, RN and the tiny civil market to (W)S.58. T.192 continued for RAF's Task of brown job insertion. In 1957, despairing it would ever emerge, MoS explored Fairey Rotodyne and DHC-4 Caribou, but chose to persevere with T.192 to give Bristol/Weston something to parlay in the industrial "coalescence" discussions. Bristol Aircraft and GW went to EE/Vickers, 18/12/59: MoA had hoped rotors too, but that went by default to WHL, 23/3/60. The 3 DB T.192 arrived in October,1960; WHL made no fuss about confining production to merely 26 and secured commonality RAF/RN with (GE T.58, as BSEL) Twin Gnome Wessex HC.2/HU.5; Napier was absorbed by RR in 1961; Belvedere was orphaned. It should have been aborted in 1957.
(prime source: MRH.Uttley,Westland & the British Helicopter Industry,1945-60,Cass,2001.)

[Saint Jack]

My earlier reference to the occasional Beverley flights from Seletar to Vietnam were not meant to suggest any clandestine role in that conflicy by the British military. The suggestion that they were simply resupplying the British diplomatic mission is entirely feasible and the use of the Beverley with its huge capacity may be nothing more than combining the freight requirement with flight-crew experience in a different environment.

That is not to say there were no connections by the British military and Vietnam. It's fairly common knowledge that the first US Army Rangers (later to become known as the Green Berets) were trained at the British Army's School of Jungle Warfare located near Kota Tinggi in Johor and only about 20 miles from Singapore.

Also, 66 Sqdn made at least one detachment to Terendak Camp (just a few miles north of Malacca and headquarters of the Commonwealth Brigade) to give 4RAR (the 4th Royal Australian Regiment) 'helicopter experience' before their deployment to Vietnam.

Now, how do you change the rear engine on a Belvedere? First find a suitable crane to raise the rear of the helicopter (by the rear rotor head). Next, Get the 2 special wheel stands that are about 3 feet high and place them under the rear wheels. Procede with engine change (the 'old' engine was lowered out and the 'new' engine hoisted in). There was adequate height under the front engine to do this on the ground. You'll now understand why we dreaded a rear engine change in the field.

Imagine doing this on a moving ship (impossible below deck due to the height required) and you'll get a better idea why the Royal Navy are probably still laughing about a Belvedere torpedo carrier.

[OLLY HOLBROOK]

Please excuse a lowly ground crew breaking in,two things:
a)Quite right Mr. Salt it was.
b) There was also another mass fly past of belvederes
in the Far East.In 1964 after we had acheived the impossible, a nigh on 100 %
serviceability rate!For the Agong's birthday,as I remember it,Kuching flew all it's
Belvederes at once,

[Tankertrashnav]

I certainly remember 34 Sqn Beverleys flying to Vietnam in 1967 - I shared a room in the mess with a Beverley captain so heard a lot of the goings on. On one occasion a Beverley was taxying for take-off from Saigon (forget the US base name) when something like a mag drop occurred. The tower immediately asked what was wrong and the captain, who happened to be the Sqn commander, informed them that he would be a few minutes while they sorted out a minor problem. His attention was immediately drawn to several bulldozers heading line abreast towards him and he was informed that if the aircraft was still in position when they reached him he would be pushed onto the grass to clear the taxiway. At that stage in the war movements were so intensive that even a couple of minutes delay was unacceptable.

The Beverely took off with the mag drop and got back to Seletar safe and sound!

[Postfade]

I remember seeing the first re-assembled Belvedere of 66 Sqn XG473 that visited Changi, I believe on it's first 'hop'.

http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/NEW/The%20first%20re-assembled%2066%20Sqn%20Belvedere%20XG473%20visits%20Changi-S1101A.jpg

I managed to get a few more Belvedere pics, like this one of XG475 being re-fuelled.

http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/NEW/Belvedere%20XG475%20gets%20refueled-S759B.jpg

Those pics would be in 1962, but I'd need to do some 'digging around' to get more accurate dates.

My father was a W/O Signals and he moved later from Changi to Seletar. So instead of living in the quarters looking right down on the Western Dispersal at Changi I ended up in a bungalow in Serangoon. Therefore occasional trips were made to Seletar to photograph the aircraft there.

Here's a couple of the 66 Sqn Belvedere's being serviced, with a Whirlwind of 110 Sqn as well. This was late 1963.

http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/NEW/2%2066Sqn%20Belvederes%20and%20a%20110%20Sq%20Whirlwind%20at %20Seletar-late%2063-SSn153B.jpg

The book I've been promising of my 60's Singapore aircraft pics is coming...just need the winter nights to get the 'writing' done!

David Taylor.

[LXXIV]

David:
"Also, the tail of a Beverley visible behind the Seletar control tower reminds me that these aircraft used to make occasional trips to Vietnam, but I could never determine the purpose, remember this was '66/'67 and there was a war going on.
Care to cast further light into the shadows? Please.
Be lucky
David"

There was no hidden agenda about the Beverley trips to Vietnam during the war. I was a crew member of XL150 of 34 Squadron on the trip in question in August 1967. Our task, as in previous years, was to deliver OXFAM & Catholic Relief Agency supplies from Saigon (Tan Son Nhut) to various destinations incountry. Day 1 started rather badly with a seized donk at Loc Ninh, but after an amazing feat of logistics (for Beverleys, that is), involving a Beverley arriving from Chieng Mai with the engine change team, and another one arriving from Seletar with the new engine, we were able to regain schedule after an engine change in the field. Then, during the following few days, on to Da Nang, Kontum, Pleiku, Dalat and back to Seletar after an action packed week. The whole proceedings would take too long to tell here.
Sadly, XL150 was destroyed, with all on board killed, on 15th December 1967 after crashing into a hill in Malaysia in appalling weather conditions. That's another story.

LXXIV

[brakedwell]

I took these films over Xmas and New Year 1964/5 when I was lumbered with a month as RAF Det Cdr at Thumier. Later, when joining the circuit at Khormaksar in an Argosy, I saw a Belvedere explode in midair when a failed turbine blade struck the Avpin tank.

YouTube - Thumier One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9CA1HaZ3yc)

YouTube - Thumier Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtDU3n49E8A)