BMA Viscount & DC9 aircraft [Archive]

rog747

31st Jul 2009, 19:28

i was duty traffic officer at LHR in ops for BMA 1977-1985

i cannot help you re VC8 ops 1972 although i lived near SEN and channel airways was my local airline but i dont know what happened to them at BOH re BMA picking up their flights...

re BMA DC9's -15's
when i joined we were just getting the the leased Finnair a/c still with its finnish regn op'g LPL-LHR OY-LYB
and our own N reg a/c then became G-BFIH/G-BMAA a/c op'g LHR-MME

we had about 9 viscounts operating LHR-LBA IOM MME EMA BHX LPL
Friday nights was all viscounts at LHR as the DC-9's went off to op the Jerseys because at weekends in the summer the DC-9's op'd out of EMA and LTN and almost everywhere else we went from to Jersey !
(along with alot of the viscounts too, so Jersey was a major player)

with the DC-9 we also did MME-PMI on friday nights and RMI too, sometimes we did LPL-Tarbes, LPL-ALC,PMI,GRO and some other charter places too.
we did LHR-PMI occasionally with the DC9.(charter)

we also with the viscount did LPL-PMI, BHX-MAH in the summer on night charter flights. a 5 hour trundle through the night lol

6 x DC9 -15's were op'g during my time eventually,
G-BMAA/B/C G/H/I
85 then 90 pax seats

2 x DC 9-32 came in too before i left
G-BMAK/M
105 seats i think

i think thats all i can remember,
sometimes when british rail went on strike we used the 707's as well on domestic flights.
and they dropped into LHR on fog diversions on early mornings if EMA,MAN or BHX was closed...all holiday charters.
all sun tanned punters and the cabin smelled of ambre solaire !

GLA/EDI and BFS came later on whilst i was there.
all DC9 services.
although the viscount went to BFS sometimes.

Photos: Douglas DC-9-15 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Midland-Airways/Douglas-DC-9-15/1459072/L/&sid=58f7b31be1493e8481ab84135e27e09a)
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-262529.html

viscounts in my time were
G AZNA/B/C
G AZLP/R/S/T (T BECAME G BMAT AFTER LBA ACCIDENT)
G AYOX
G BFLH was youngest viscount ever flying
G BAPF/G

rog747

31st Jul 2009, 19:34

i forgot to mention that of the pilots were aces and friends

tony belcher
kevin hunt
ian gilmore
pat cunningham
nas tatalias
helmut popp
ian smallwood

and many many more nice people

wot fun days they were;)

Air33bus

31st Jul 2009, 19:54

David Hollingworth
Joe le Page

G-BMAA ex KLM

rog747

31st Jul 2009, 20:05

oh yes those too as well

the names keep coming lol
Photos: Douglas DC-9-15 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Midland-Airways/Douglas-DC-9-15/0147751/L/&sid=723b5e77425cd6ff2c764c4845681eb4)

airsmiles

31st Jul 2009, 21:54

Thanks rog747 in particular.

Re; the baby DC9's, a friend and I both saw G-BGWP at LHR on separate dates in August 1979. This was ex- OH-LYB, but according to Air Britain the UK registration was allocated but not taken up (in 1979 anyway). It subsequently carried on operating as OH-LYB for a while longer. However, we both know we saw it at LHR as G-BGWP. I wondered if anyone could clear up that long running mystery.

As for the Hurn Viscounts, I have a copy of BG Cramps excellent book which gives some detail of the 1972 operation, but was subsequently passed over to Dan-Air sometime later in 1972. I wondered if anyone had more detailed information of schedules, dates of operations and aircraft used. The latter is partly because my first ever flight was on a BMA Viscount [Hurn-Jersey 2.4.1972 and returning Jersey-Hurn 9.4.1972. To complete my flying log I was hoping to fill in the specific aircraft flown. This could been the time the ex-South African viscounts were being introduced into service.

airsmiles

rog747

1st Aug 2009, 07:17

oh lord
i don't remember G-BGWP at all, i am sure it was never used but i am foggy on that one.
i sort of now remember something but i cant help you more.

i dont think the reg'n was ever used on OY-LYB but you state you saw it...?
perhaps it was applied but we were still using 'YB'
aug 1979 i may have been on holiday...lol

1972 was the year that MR Bishop popped down to SAA at JNB and bought all 7 of their viscounts and the old sim for a very tiny amount of cash !

btw in the mid 70's before i joined, the BMA viscounts operated the LHR to NQY and LHR-Strasbourg routes.
also LGW-BFS was ongoing in my time op'd by viscount.

re the Bournemouth ops try posting in the Bournemouth pprune post.

N707ZS

1st Aug 2009, 07:47

G-BGWP was a MBB-105 helicopter.

Midland 331

1st Aug 2009, 08:09

Great list of names there, rog747! Real characters indeed.

The -32s were 110Y IIRC, and we used to fill them on the 331.

r

rog747

1st Aug 2009, 09:12

ah ok thanks
i knew they messed around with 85/90 then 85 again on the dc9 rocket

airsmiles

1st Aug 2009, 09:20

Definitely saw G-BGWP land in 27R at LHR and there was another sighting by another at LHR about the same time. I can't explain it, and I agree the registration was officially applied to the Bo105 helicopter, but Air Britain agree it was originally intended for the BMA DC-9. If only digital cameras were around then!

I'm involved with the Bournemouth scene so have pretty much exhausted that source I think.

airsmiles

rog747

1st Aug 2009, 09:38

i also found a Douglas c/n and fleet list too with (g-bgwp) in brackets as being allocated to YB's c/n and history,
then it became G-BMAH eventually.

so yes i think it was maybe applied to the a/c in paint but very quickly un-allocated,
as far as i can tell from memory we never called the a/c 'WP' at any time,

Photos: Douglas DC-9-14 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Midland-Airways/Douglas-DC-9-14/1459068/L/)

shown in 9/79

Little Blue

1st Aug 2009, 09:45

HELMUT POPP !!!
What a legend !
It was always a joy to do his loadsheets. True gent.
Although I remember the nasty incident in BRU, I think, when he fell out of the service door and broke his arm.
Used to see him walking his dogs up and down Park Lane towards the Hall.
Other names for you.
Geoff Goodchild, Rod Brears, Tony Blades, Chas Anderson (although he was on the ATP....)
Remember Roger Markwick, LHR skipper. Could be fierce, but a cuppa aways sorted that out !
Seeing a mixture of 9's on the EMA ramp on a saturday afternoon, all heading off to JER was a guarantee of a very sweaty load controller, cos the ramp car was ALWAYS in MT getting fixed !
Happy happy days !

Midland 331

1st Aug 2009, 10:46

Capt Popp was unmistakable on the R/T.

I once cadged a jump seat ride with him. After a sporting departure off 05 at MME, (with a left turn that seem to take us almost directly over the rail halt), he proceeded to talk to me about mutual friends all the way to just before the MCT, allowing the young F/O to sweat away with everything. He then turned to the panel, and said "now, where are we...?" :-)

Ramp cars? My dad, stalwart of MT at Castle Don. until 1984, did miracles with bits and bobs of engines and bodies, as the management were too tight to spend any money. Scrapheap challenge. The pump-out bowser in the hangar belonged in a museum,

The ramp at EMA was positively humming in the summer. I had a summer job on traffic, and once had the dubious pleasure of leading passengers off an inbound 707 from way over on the northern edge stands, halting an inbound F27. 211 sauntering "bucket and spaders" stopped everything for ten minutes. No nose-in parking or coaches in 1982. Happy days indeed. The place is unrecognisable now, and infested with lo-co riff-raff, hen parties sloshed at 0630, carrying inflatable male bits, etc.

Jn14:6

1st Aug 2009, 10:51

rog747

The 'youngest ever Viscount flying' to which you refer was G-BFZL, not G-BFLH, which was a PA-34!
Had 2 spells flying her and her sisters out of LPL, then EMA/LBA. Nice old machine.

rog747

1st Aug 2009, 11:04

good ol helmutt !

tony belcher was superb at whizzing down the Bravo cul-de-sac T1 LHR, in the DC9, turned the engines off and just coasted into B2 or B4
maybe he did leave one on... lol;)...would be frowned upon now i suppose

happy days!

ian smallwood did jump seat with him friday night EMA-PMI
flying time 1 hr 35 mins !
(wheels off/on time.)

rog747

1st Aug 2009, 11:07

rog747

The 'youngest ever Viscount flying' to which you refer was G-BFZL, not G-BFLH, which was a PA-34!
Had 2 spells flying her and her sisters out of LPL, then EMA/LBA. Nice old machine.

YES!!! you are quite right !! i was thinking purely from memory,
i knew there was L and F in it LOL!!!

yes she was nice thing, had a quirky rear door arrangement too

IB4138

1st Aug 2009, 12:56

The ex-Finnair DC9's AH/AI were -14's. They were two of the first built DC9's originally with Air Canada. The remainder AA/AB/AC/AG and N48075, leased for 7 months in 1978 from Southern, were -15's.

AA operated with registration N65358, from August 76 to April 78, before being British registered as G-BFIH.

OH-LYD (-14) was leased from Finnair for four months in 1983.

airsmiles

1st Aug 2009, 14:20

Excellent photo of OH-LYB landing. About time BMI (as they are now) did the decent thing and brought out an A320 retroject scheme in 1970's livery.

If anyone's still with BMI please suggest it!

airsmiles

WHBM

1st Aug 2009, 22:21

I see I went in OH-LYB (BMA colours but Finnish reg) in May 1978 on a midday flight Heathrow-Teesside. Several of the Finnair-registered small DC9s came back and forward over the years. According to another source LYB lasted with BMA from September 77 to December 79, then it went back to Finnair, then returned later to BMA "properly" in 1983 as G-BMAH.

The DC9-10s were an oddball choice for Finnair, they bought them secondhand to replace Convair piston aircraft on domestic services, and didn't find them well suited, hence all the ones they leased out.

1972 was the year that MR Bishop popped down to SAA at JNB and bought all 7 of their viscounts and the old sim for a very tiny amount of cash !I read at the time that Mike went to South Africa with the funds thought needed to buy ONE Viscount, and ended up with the fleet of seven for the same money !

rog747

2nd Aug 2009, 05:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by rog747
1972 was the year that MR Bishop popped down to SAA at JNB and bought all 7 of their viscounts and the old sim for a very tiny amount of cash !

I read at the time that Mike went to South Africa with the funds thought needed to buy ONE Viscount, and ended up with the fleet of seven for the same money...

Yes,
i think the amount was about £100k for the whole lot (7 a/c plus the sim)
so i heard !

the tales of all the ferry flights home over darkest africa would probably make a very good book !

BMA was a true airline with a great history from the late 1930's,(air schools, then Derby aviation in 1949)
the pioneering times...

WHBM

2nd Aug 2009, 08:31

Regarding Bournemouth, Tony Merton Jones' book provides (as ever) more information. After Channel went under in February 72, BMA temporarily picked up Southend, Stansted and Bournemouth to Jersey. The first operation out of Bournemouth was Friday March 3 with Viscount APNE. This lasted for just 4 months until the permanent licences came into force, when BMA kept Southend and Stansted, but Dan-Air took over Bournemouth from July 1 with 748s.

Although APNE was coming towards the end of its time with BMA (it went off to Israel at the end of the summer) this was indeed the time the seven SAA Viscounts were coming on line so BMA would have had spare capacity. Evidently though they were not enough as BMA bought another seven prop aircraft the next year, four Viscounts from Lufthansa and three Heralds from South America.

ZFT

2nd Aug 2009, 09:19

As an aside, I was working for SAA at the time BMA bought the Viscount fleet and there was a story doing the rounds at JNB that BMA pitched up thinking they had only purchased a couple of airframes and an FBS sim to find they had in fact got the whole fleet (plus spares) and the sim!!

No idea whether there was any truth in it but knowing SAR&H at the time, anything was possible.

ATNotts

2nd Aug 2009, 09:22

WHBM

The 4 Viscounts that you mention, although originally delivered to LH, were actually purchased from Nora Air Services (NAS) who were based at Kassel-Calden, Germany.

I seem to remember seeing one at EMA in NAS scheme.

Did NAS also operate Nord Noratlas aircraft, presumably as freighters, or is my memory playing tricks?

LAS1997

2nd Aug 2009, 09:45

I recal flying in a BMA Viscount G-BAPF on many occasions as a Pax, LHR-LBA-LHR during this 1980's. I was so pleased to be flying in a Viscount, and remember those wonderful windows which were so large and those great Rolls-Royce Tynes purring away!

I never worked for BMA, but for a private jet company at LHR, one of our Captain's left in 1989 to join BMA. His name was Johnny Taylor, I remember well the day he joined BMA as it was the day of the crash on the M1 of the 737-400!

Did any of you know Johnny and if so is he still with the airline?

Johnny was ex-RAF (I think) and flew for Falcon Jet Centre at LHR on their Falcon 20F (G-BGOP) for a number of years.

It would be nice to find out if he is still with the airline or moved on, it was 20 years I go, so he may have even retired!

PS

I also flew in the DC-9-32's as well, this time to MME, great old aircraft!

nacluv

2nd Aug 2009, 09:50

Midland331: The place is unrecognisable now, and infested with lo-co riff-raff, hen parties sloshed at 0630, carrying inflatable male bits, etc.I know what you mean. I have only known the place in more recent times, but even then I have seen it take a serious turn for the worse.

I used to take a weekly commute up to EDI on the lovely fully-serviced F70/F100 service. On several occasions on the return leg on a Friday evening, there was a very likeable and attentive (middle-aged) Steward who on more than one occasion would sit down next to me for a while to discuss the wine list in detail and offer recommendations according to what he had available. Very pleasant and helpful chap.

Then EMA turned itself into Chav Central and the fully-serviced schedule was culled in favour of BMI-Baby. I recall seeing this poor chap on the same run, but not in uniform any more - resplendent in jeans and lurid-coloured t-shirt - in amongst the teenie-CC, looking well out of place. I could have cried for him. Discussing the fine points of wine one week, and mopping up puke the next. What a way to go...

From my perspective, it could not have been worse either - I went from paying around £100 for the weekly return trip fully-serviced, to around £350 for the completely-unserviced trip because of how we had to purchase our tickets. Oh, the irony. I was very glad in the end to finish that job.

Sorry about the slightly off-topic post.

rog747

2nd Aug 2009, 09:59

slightly off topic yes lol,
but i do suggest you read my 2 posts in ''flybe, what a shower''
sums up chav central and what has happened to flying today...sigh

regards rog

re G-BAPF it was a bummer, always tech lol

airsmiles

2nd Aug 2009, 10:47

I have the BMA book by BG Cramp, which is very informative. Namely:-

Re: South African viscounts: Mike Bishop was in Israel when he noticed in Flight Magazine the advert for the viscounts. He then went down to S.Africa and was told the fleet was to be sold as a whole and not seperately. He only had board approval to buy 2 viscounts and not 7! Unabashed he decided to offer the same cash amount he had board approval, but for all 7. As we now know, he offer was accepted and the rest is history.

Re; the german viscounts. These were never as reliable or corrosion free as the S.African ones and they appear to have less successful overall.

There's other gems in the book which is a marvellous story of an enterprising independant british airline.

airsmiles

PS: Viscounts had Dart engines, not the Tynes which were fitted to the Vanguard.

Little Blue

2nd Aug 2009, 10:51

LAS1997
Johnny Taylor was, I believe, still flying for bmi ex-LHR.
I left baby two months ago and hadn't spoken to him for a while.
Lovely guy, always had a smile and was always interested in you.

tristar 500

2nd Aug 2009, 11:16

LAS 1977 said the Viscounts had purring Tynes!!

The Tyne never purred, the 14ft 6inc prop made sure of that (Vanguard)

I think he had better revise his memory and use Rolls Royce DARTS which were a very different kettle of fish!!!

tristar 500

ZFT

2nd Aug 2009, 11:42

rog747

Just seen your post #22. Goodness knows how I missed it (and others referring to it). Senility kicking in tonight maybe? Apologies for repeating same story.

WHBM

2nd Aug 2009, 19:32

Re; the german viscounts. These were never as reliable or corrosion free as the S.African ones and they appear to have less successful overall.
As Lufthansa maintenance was doubtless as faultless then as it is now, this is presumably a commentary on a prior 15 year life in a dry, tropical climate, compared to one that included 15 Central European winters.

Do they ever de-ice in South Africa ?

airsmiles

2nd Aug 2009, 21:29

Agreed WHBM. 15 european winters must be a pretty harsh environment for an aircraft compared to what I presume was an arid, consistently warm life in South Africa. May be maintenance with Nora Air Services wasn't so great either though.

airsmiles

LAS1997

3rd Aug 2009, 14:08

Tri-Star 500, you are quite correct of course, they were RR Darts on the Viscount, the Tyne was on the Vanguard!

Just back from a visit to the Brooklands museum where they have a Viscount 800 G-APIM, managed to go on board and have a look around with my daughter. The cabin still looks so spacious, and sorry to bang on about the windows, but very big! That musty aircraft smell was still present too! The flight deck was quite small, but lets face it 1950's design and technology.

How wonderful it would be if they could start a Dart up?

This Viscount flew with BEA / Cambrian / BA / BAF before coming to grief in a ground collision with a Shorts 360 in the mid 1980's.

groundfine

3rd Aug 2009, 17:50

Believe Johnnie Taylor now working part time and living in Cornwall.
The buy 2 get 5 free Viscount story is correct. As well as the VC8 Simulator and the 7 aircraft was a host of spares including engines, for 105K I think.
Some of the aircraft needed resparring before being put back into commercial use.
Think it was Tony Smallwood not Ian (?).
Jim Shaw, Jim Snee and Hard Ronnie are names that come to mind.
"Keep attacking son!"
The very best of flying and of people it was too.

rog747

3rd Aug 2009, 17:59

yes it was tony smallwood i think, not ian, you are correct!

there was an Ian 'someone' too cant think now lol

barnie concannon

norman brewitt was another,
geoff goodchild yes i remember him, tall chap, very kind

i suppose Tony Belcher was the squadron leader LOL:}

another lovely chap (tall, balding) flew viscounts took me down to Palma in the middle of the night from LPL one summer for my hols, c1979/80

flying time was about 4+ hours, maybe nearly 5, and he took his dinner down the back in the passenger seats. cant think of his name,
a/c had about 40 pax on (held 73)
oh those were the days

Tail-take-off

9th Aug 2009, 11:31

There is a new book out "bmi the story: celebrating 70 years in the business of aviation."

bmi the story: (http://www.pprune.org/bmi the story:)

much2much

10th Aug 2009, 16:46

love the post and any dc9, nostalgia always remember, a late sector into /LHR on a nasty winter Sunday as helmets,f/o,a conversation,about ,the sun news paper, leading ,on to how to spend the night leading,to the most bizarre about the stars and the after life, and many things to sensitive to mention here,even after 25 or so, years:oh:,but all those,characters were just that;,as for.engine off taxing,one of them did hit the peer.and one flew a sector in a crash helmet,because the window was cracked,to make a statement to the engineers,with out a thought for depressurisation,irreplaceable times,many names and stories,,TONY SMALLWOOD,i believe is correct,there was a IAN GRAHAM

rog747

10th Aug 2009, 18:24

yes it was ian graham who flew viscounts and took me to palma one night !

thanks for that!!!

much2much

11th Aug 2009, 08:17

my pleasure,also know by peter parkers alias

David Eyre

17th Aug 2009, 05:35

Photo of two of the colourful ex-Nora Air Services (previously owned by Lufthansa) Viscounts at East Midlands Airport in 1972:
Vickers Viscount - large picture from the AirTeamImages.com photo library (http://www.airteamimages.com/big51143.html)

D-ANIZ became G-BAPG.
D-ANUN (on the right) became G-BAPF.

Regards,

David Eyre

kala87

17th Aug 2009, 11:15

I can recall flying in one of the DC9-10's from LHR to MME in summer 1990, so they were still around at that late date. I was amazed to be served a full 3-course dinner with nice wine. The hostie must have been busy on that run. The food was far better than anything I have ever experienced in BA economy class.

My last ever flight on a short body DC9 was in 1999 in Mexico, jump-seating on an AeroCaribe flight into Mexico City at night with no other pax on board. Autopilots were u/s and the Capt. hand flew the entire flight in VMC with the help of a portable GPS! The panel was vintage Douglas circa 1965.

WHBM

17th Aug 2009, 12:11

I I was amazed to be served a full 3-course dinner with nice wine. The hostie must have been busy on that run. The food was far better than anything I have ever experienced in BA economy class.
That would be the days of Diamond Service, for everybody. Which is how BMA built up on competitive routes from being a start-up to being a BA equivalent. Are you listening, Donington ?

Those little individual bottles of BMA wine given out as part of the service I used to put unopened in my briefcase if I was driving home. Several built up over time (this was before liquids checks at security) and then the inevitable happened, setting up a major meeting in a client's boardroom I opened my briefcase upside-down, and they all fell out and rolled on the floor and under the new client's director's feet.

This was 1991. Some of my colleagues at the time can still remember it happening !