787 first flight

[pvmw]

After the PR er,................hiccup at Paris when it was announced that the 787 was on course for a first flight before the end of June - followed promptly by news that it wasn't - has anyone seen any follow-up news at all?

Its all gone incredibly quiet. I used to work for one of the sub-contractors until recently and not even my ex colleagues seem to have any idea what is happening or when a re-scheduled first flight may be.

[Kerosene Kraut]

No new FF schedule has been released yet.

[JulieFlyGal]

Our local press is saying the delay is between 4 to 6 months.

Nightmare continues for Boeing Dreamliner | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25824766-23349,00.html)

[leewan]

Remember the A3lately nick they gave to the QF A380. Maybe they should name the B787 7late7.:)

In Asian culture, the number 8 is considered lucky and auspicious. Seems otherwise for the commercial aviation world. E.g: A380, B787, B748

[Ridge Runner]

Nice one Leewan!

[olandese_volante]

Or indeed, in "SMS spelling" : 7L87

[leewan]

On a serious note, I think it would be another 1 to 1.5 years before the a/c takes its first revenue flight. Boeing should have seen it coming. The new age technology incorporated in this a/c has never been tested in a commercial a/c environment and must have been given some time to mature.
The first set of delays were due to production issues. The current set of delays are due to technical issues. Once the plane starts flying, issues will crop up. That will take time to fix and lengthen the delay. Not to mention will further add onto the overweight a/c and put the a/cs fuel burn and range further away from its brochure specs. Which might to lead further cancellations and compensations.
And finally, once it goes into revenue service there will be another set of latent problems rearing their ugly head which then will have to be addressed and fixed.
This is gonna be a bigger pain in the a$$ for Boeing than A380 was for Airbus.

[N707ZS]

Still think it should be called "the plastic pig"!

Anyone know why 737s were called a pig?

[parabellum]

The B737s that I flew were called Fat Alberts and sometimes 'Fluf', meaning 'fat little ugly ..........'

[leewan]

Anyone know why 737s were called a pig?

I think it's because the early 737s fuselage length was shorter than it's wingspan giving it a short piggy look. :)

[Max Angle]

Boeing must be kicking themselves, I reckon if they had gone for a part composite aircraft that had the major structural parts of the airframe made from conventional metals they would have sold just as many and had far fewer problems.

[steve wilson]

I always thought that the 737 got its nickname in the miners strike when Orion B737s were chartered to fly police around the country to counter pickets targeting different pits each day.

[Basil]

From The Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2009565319_boeing30.html)

[Basil]

Anyone know why 737s were called a pig?
This is a pig:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Capn_Basil/RAFOakingtonVarsity1967.jpg
. . and not a composite in sight - perhaps a little Bakelite :)

. . and, now, the Pig Competition Winner! (http://www.imperial-airways.com/Vickers_61-74_vulcan.html)

[Fokkerwokker]

I see at least two pigs in the picture Basil!

FW
:}

[TSR2]

Estimates by the two engineers of the minimum time needed to fix the problem suggest the plane is now unlikely to fly until next year.


"Boeing is highly likely to lose large sums of money on the first 400 to 600 aircraft."

Not looking too good for Boeing.

[mickyman]

When they designed this aircraft on the piece of paper it couldnt fly -
but when they CG'd the idea it suddenly took flight as a simulation -
they then sold the idea to airlines and gained impressive orders -
unfortunately reality has reared its ugly head again and only by
spending tens of millions of dollars on a fix will it ever be near to
flight.Problems in the flight test programme will undoubtedly happen -
fixes need to be done....time ticks......compensation claims mount -
This could be the End of Boeing.
I think that we are seeing the deathrows of this aircraft in its current
form and more conventional manufacturing techniques might need to be employed just to get it into service - which means all performance
targets will be out the window.

Ive not even mentioned the threat of lightening on the airframe
burning the composite up!!

MM

[Avman]

The Ford Anglia on the left of the picture was faster than the Varsity :E

[Walnut]

The large order book for this a/c has numerous small airlines signed up because of its very cheap projected operating costs. Repairing or maintaining a new product like this now the truth is filtering out is likely to be beyond the capabilities of such companies. I predict a mass cancelation of orders unless the problems are sorted soon.

[mickyman]

Avman

You noticed the 'go faster' stripe as well !!

MM

[Basil]

Focker! That's not me in the car :=

Good party at Kemble :ok:

[PETTIFOGGER]

Seeing the Varsity and the Anglia does remind one about the questionable aesthetic design capability of some. And I don’t think anyone can seriously claim these designs were necessary to allow function over form. At least Boeing is not afflicted with that malaise, as far as I can remember.

The 787, or dreamliner as some still call it (although I thought that appellation is more correctly used when describing the extra fast but subsonic effort that nobody wanted, except perhaps passengers) has a pleasing appearance. It is unfortunate for Boeing that they have run into the present crop of difficulties; and the most difficult to overcome would appear to be the elimination of “hard spots”.

As I understand it, CFRP wings, like their aluminium brothers, are required to flap, and flap they do. The problem comes at the join to the fuselage, which is too stiff. So instead of dissipating the flapping energy smoothly throughout the length of the structure of the fuselage, it comes up against one or more of these immovable “hard spots”, and the structure starts “crazing” and delaminating. In other words, it all comes unstuck. The description of the ‘fix’ is simple: make everything more flexible. In practice this looks as though it may be rather difficult, as modification to the structure of the wingbox may be required. If so, this goes right to the heart of the aircraft.

I am neither a structural engineer nor a CFRP wallah and it would be really nice and comforting if some such person could say that my suppositions are all wrong. It would be even nicer if someone from Boeing’s PR Department could help me, and probably many thousands of others, reconcile their statements or comments at the Paris Air show, with the reality of what now appears to be the case. Boeing is, or was, one of those companies, about which one felt that whatever ‘happened’ as reported by the media, they would pull through, and everything would be fine. I look on various sites, hoping that I might come across the essence of this, but so far, I have not seen that glimmer of hope. Maybe tomorrow? Or is that mañana.

[parabellum]

When that model Anglia came off the line at Dagenham, circa 1962, it cost GBP640.00 brand new!

[PETTIFOGGER]

Parabellum.... Well you were done! Six years later, the streamlined 'Escort' cost about GBP 650 for export; and it didn't leak too much.
rgds pf

[leewan]

Remember, the whole fuselage is made of CFRP. Has its durability to the rigours of commercial flight been tested, esp as some operators would be using it on short hops increasing its landing and pressurization cycles. Has the idea of CFRP fatigue ever been studied, like the Aloha 737 ?
And what about the electric brakes, thermal heating strips, and electric packs ? Have all this been tested to the rigours of commercial flights as well ? It would be interesting to see the dispatch reliability of the B787 in its first year. I sincerely hope Boeing can prove me wrong.

BTW, what's the propeller a/c in the pic ? Is it a pax or a freighter ?

[boe777]

Hey Folks,

Spare some pellets in your shotguns !!!, boeing is a "Alma mater" as far as Aircrafts are concerned, glitches notwithstanding I am sure they would have considered all pros and cons before assembling the aircraft, or have you guys forgotten about different softwares being used by Airbus on A380, specially when it was supposed to be a coordinated venture between various production facilities ? which eventually resulted in top dog being escorted out of premises and Mr Leahy losing half his weight.

Nothing against A380, I think its aesthetically pleasing, given its mammoth proportions, they have done an excellent job.

[PETTIFOGGER]

Hi Boe 777. Re your comment “…glitches notwithstanding I am sure they would have considered all pros and cons before assembling the aircraft……” it does not look like it to me, and I doubt that it looks like that to anyone. The main point is surely not that it is late, or how it’s lateness compares with the development of other aircraft past or present; the main point is surely why it is late. In short, they cannot get the wings to stick on properly without damaging the rest of the aircraft. This is a problem of a different order of magnitude involving the main structure of the aircraft, as can be seen from this video KIRO 7 Eyewitness News Video, Seattle, Western Washington (http://www.kirotv.com/video/20129150/index.html)

It does not look like it is going to fly anytime soon. It is a sitting duck, and no one needs to waste pellets on that.

[Groundloop]

or dreamliner as some still call it (although I thought that appellation is more correctly used when describing the extra fast but subsonic effort that nobody wanted, except perhaps passengers)

That was the "Sonic Cruiser" - never called Dreamliner.

BTW, wasn't the Dreamliner name for the 787 thought up by some school kid in a Boeing "name that plane" competition?

[PETTIFOGGER]

Groundloop, Hi, and thanks for straightening that out for me. I remember now. Here is the link http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/feature/dreamliner.html (http://http//www.boeing.com/commercial/news/feature/dreamliner.html)
Great PR in those days.
rgds, pf