R44 Training in Scotland

[GroundEffect]

Hi all,

this is my first post, so if the question is covered elsewhere please excuse me.

I'm interested in undertaking my PPL(H) on the R44. Does anyone know of anyone offering this service in/around the central belt?

I'm sure the first thing someone will ask is "Why not the R22?". Well, I'm told that Robinson themselves now suggest that the R22 isn't the best aircraft for a novice to fly in and, in the unlikely event of an engine failure, a novice pilot is more likely to survive with the higher momentum in the R44 rotor system than that in the R22. I've read that you must do the "right thing" within 1 second on the 22 and you have more like 3-4 seconds on the 44 - anyone care to comment on the accurancy of these figures?

I have flown the R22 and I do enjoy flying in it - although I have a nagging doubt about my ability to react in the "required" timeframe. Also, ultimately I would like to own an R44 and it seems that the more experience I can gain in it the better.

Thanks in advance.

[misterbonkers]

Scotia Helicopters at Cumbernauld.:ok:

[Bondu121]

HJS Helicopters Ltd
Lower Baads
Anguston
Peterculter
Aberdeenshire AB14 0PR

Tel: 01224 739111
Fax: 01224 739222
email: [email protected]
web: www.hjshelicopters.co.uk (http://www.hjshelicopters.co.uk)

Very professional outfit with very high standards.

[cjbiz]

GroundEffect

Check your PMs!

[the beater]

What's the secret?:(

[Martin Barclay]

Might also be worth considering Kingsfield Helicopters based in Perth.

It is true that the R22 needs quick reactions and can be a bit twitchy but the old adage that if you can fly a '22' you can fly anything still holds good. The '22' teaches you enormous respect for helicopters. Complacency will kill you, no matter what type you fly. You can always take the money you will save and put it towards a better '44' when you are done.

I have flown with Scotia and HJS so PM me if you would like any more information.

Martin.

[Whirlygig]

The minimum number of hours for a JAA PPL(H) is 45. If you did that on an R44 at £400 an hour, it would cost £18,000 at least. On an R22, at £250 an hour, you could get 72 hours for the same cost. Those extra 27 hours could give you more experience at being able to react. You will be trained to a standard. It may not take 45 hours (rarely does for ab-initio pilots); 60-70 hours is more common for students who have no aviation experience

Yes, the R22 is a tad twitchy, yes, it's harder to learn on and yes, you need quick reaction times but none of these is necessarily a bad thing!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[toptobottom]

I agree with Martin and Whirls: you should never be complacent, but the chances of needing to drop the lever is very small indeed, plus you'll have an instructor covering the controls next to you for 90% of the time anyway.

IMHO you'll end up being a more competent pilot more quickly in the 22, and with more respect for everything helicopters in general. So unless you've got money to burn, don't pay for the extra [empty] seats in a 44 until you need to :)

[jellycopter]

I'll take the opposite stance.

The R44 is the better trainer, full stop. It's more stable, less twitchy, flies more akin to a 'proper' helicopter and is more forgiving of mistakes than the R22.

There are loads of PPLs out there who have successfully trained on the R22, and consequently sing its praises, but that doesn't make it a good training helicopter. Furthermore, the tricky nature of the R22 mean it's likely to take more hours to learn on than on the 44. My latest stude has just learned to hover unassisted in just over 1 hour on the R44. I've never had anyone come anywhere close to that in the R22. So I'd expect at least 10% less hours required to become competent on the R44 - my guess and based on experience and gut feeling, not hard fact. Finally, don't forget how the hour meters are wired on the R44 and the R22. The R22 uses an oil pressure switch so the clock starts ticking as soon as you turn the key. The R44 uses a collective lever switch so you only pay for the flying you do. So there's another 10% saved. (ask about this when you contact the schools and see how they work out their charges; they can vary school to school).

Finally, the old adage 'if you can fly an R22 you can fly anything' is also twaddle. As a learner, you will have to concentrate very hard in your first hours simply on controlling the helicopter. This means that you'll be using all your available mental capacity simply controlling the machine. In turn, it means that you won't be receptive to learning 'extra' information. If the machine is easier to fly, like the R44, you'll quickly develop the spare capacity to learn the 'extras'. Anyone can fly a helicopter by twiddling the sticks in the right sequence; the difference between a good pilot and a poor one is their extra knowledge and the ability to implement it effetively whilst twiddling the sticks. Do yourself a favour; ditch the R22 idea and stick to your guns and learn on the R44.

JJ
(edited for typos)

[misterbonkers]

If you're going to end up flying & buying an R44 then you should learn to fly in one.

More hours on type mean more familiarity with it. If you learn on an R22 then convert to an R44 - sure you'll save money - but it's a relatively small amount compared to the amount you're going to spend on the machine.

[toptobottom]

JJ

I don't agree at all. What you're really saying is that the 44 is easier to learn on, not that it is better or will produce a better pilot.

If you're going to learn to drive a car, you learn in a manual, not an automatic. You learn clutch control, gears, throttle control and how to develop an empathy for all the mechanics working together. Even if you buy an automatic as soon as you throw away your 'L' plates, you'll be a better driver and have a deeper understanding of cars having learned in a manual.

Following your logic, we'd all learn in S61s with hover control, auto-pilot, etc.

TTB

PS I've also done the sums on comparative datcons and the time saved during start up/shut down and during autos makes no significant difference in the wider scheme of things. That's another typical 'Flying school argument' to convince the poor student to unnecessarily part with more cash.

[toptobottom]

misterbonkers

If you learn on an R22 then convert to an R44 - sure you'll save money - but it's a relatively small amount compared to the amount you're going to spend on the machine

It's still money and most studes don't like wasting it! I'd rather put it towards a nice moving map (or life raft so i can fly over ponds, if EASA gets its way :mad:)

[cjbiz]

thebeater

posts like yours are the reason why i chose not to publicly post on pprune, there is no secret. i wanted to pass on some contact details, why the conspiracy theories?!

regards

biz

[the beater]

No conspiracy theory. It's just that other people may like to have that information.
How's the Deek?
Must pop round and see him next time I'm up that way.:cool:

[misterbonkers]

Learn on the R22 and you still need to convert.

Manual and automatic car comparison is not really appropriate in this case (1.8 ford focus v's a 1.2 corsa is more appropriate). The R44 is more stable but it has more issues with speed, power and control, 4 seats, loading etc etc...

If £££ arent an issue then learn in what you want to learn in. Yes the R22 is cheaper and yes it does a good job. The military doesnt teach in Bell47s anymore yet the Bell 47 teaches people a lot that the AS350HT2 and R22 doesnt.

The R22 is more cost effective
The R22 was not designed for the training market (Frank Robinson freely admits this)
The R22 did get me to where I am today - I could not afford the R44
I no longer fly the R22

[Whirlygig]

posts like yours are the reason why i chose not to publicly post on PPRuNe,But you did post publicly on Pprune - to tell the whole forum that you've sent a message to the OP. If you wanted to keep things private, just send the PM without the announcement. The OP will see it as soon as he or she logs on again. He or she may even have email notification if its arrival.

If it was information which others may find useful, why not share it?

Cheers

Whirls

[toptobottom]

The R22 is more cost effective
The R22 was not designed for the training market (Frank Robinson freely admits this)
The R22 did get me to where I am today - I could not afford the R44
I no longer fly the R22

Me too - we're in violent agreement :ok:

[jellycopter]

TTB

You're welcome to your own point of view.

I've got no axe to grind here; I'm not touting for business or making a recommendation to use a mates flying school for example.

I'm just giving what I consdier to be a very valid case for other side of the argument.

I didn't even touch on the woeful autorotation characteristics of the R22, its its lack or power and accident rate.

I've taught ab-initio on both 22 and 44 and plenty more besides. The only one I no longer teach on, because I think the risks are too high for the student, is the R22.

As I said at the beginning, you are welcome to your opinion and welcome to recommend whatever you like to whom ever you like. So am I, and I wouldn't recommend the R22 to my freinds or family.

JJ

PS. I'd love to have my own R22 for personal travel, but that's a different story.

[cjbiz]

Whirls/The Beater

The reason I left a public 'hint' was that the OP stated that it was their first post and I wanted to make sure that they got my message.

Additionally, I did not want to get involved in an open discussion about the aurorotational characteristics of the robbo which inevitably leads to 'R22 bashing' and we've all heard the skewed opinions of many on here time and time again.

I will promise to share all of my pearls of wisdom from now on, but only if you say pwetty pwease! :}

Biz

P.S someone else had already beaten me to the mark and given HJS a mention.

[toptobottom]

JJ

The bottom line is money - if you can afford to learn and subsequently only ever run a 44 (or equivalent/better) then go for it. I bought, learned and hour built in a 22 because it was very cheap compared with a 44 but, I believe, it also taught me a lot more about what was going on around the machine in flight. However, I soon upgraded and my 22 rating lapsed many years ago, but I still miss it: slow and cramped, but highly manoevreable and great fun <sigh>.

TTB

[jellycopter]

TTB

This is a good thread.......... on a rainy Wednesday afternoon.

Forget cost. I think the bottom line is SAFETY. If you can't afford it, don't play the game.

JJ

[ShyTorque]

At the other end of the scale, I did my initial helicopter training on a "floppy stick", relatively large, (8,000lb MAUW, 53 foot rotor diameter), single engined helicopter with manual throttle reversion on its 1050 shp turbine.

It taught us how to operate a throttle on that particular type if the governor failed and how to carry out low level nav, IF, USLs and live winching. We were required to carry out EOLs solo with about 45 hours total rotary.

As far as basic aircraft handling goes, not much else that couldn't be done on any another type though. :)

[toptobottom]

If you can't afford it, don't play the game

Ok - this is my last post on this thread as I can see it's rapidly deteriorating into a pi$$ing contest that's been heard too many times before. Are you suggesting the R22 is unsafe and that if you can't afford to train in a 44, then don't train at all?! Safety, of course, is a common denominator that applies to all aircraft. It's a fact that there is nothing inherently unsafe about the R22. Sadly however, there are lots of inherently unsafe things about some of the very many young, irresponsible and inexperienced pilots that fly them - and that is what is reflected in the accident stats.

If I was an ab initio stude today, armed with a limited budget and a desire to learn everything there is to know about learning to fly helicopters, I'd go for the 'seat of your pants' R22 every time. It's safe, much cheaper and I believe learning in the R22 would make me a better pilot.

If I was an ab initio stude today and I could afford to buy a shiny new EC135, I'd still take lessons in an R22 before doing my type conversion and getting some hours under my belt - because I believe it would make me a better pilot.

Next thread!

TTB

[Bondu121]

Quote:

I'm interested in undertaking my PPL(H) on the R44. Does anyone know of anyone offering this service in/around the central belt?

See #3

(Pissing contests/hi-jacked threads do not help)

[helicopter-redeye]

For the original poster and question(s)

1a. There is a CAA publication (Lasors) free PDF download on their website which lists all training schools in the UK, so this could be a useful source of info to you.

1b. Depending on where you live, you might be better going a bit further than local to Central Ecosse becaue it will be quicker to drive somewhere on a motorway than fighting along A roads behind McTavish's tractor.

1c. Therefore you might also consider taking a more intense 3 week course further away (in the UK still).

2. If you are planning to buy a 44, I'd say train on one and get used to the systems and drills for one type from scratch.

h-r

[GroundEffect]

Thanks to everyone who responded to this - the thread made for pretty interesting reading and I have now made contact with a couple of local schools - Scotia in Cumbernauld and Kingsfield in Perth.

Thanks cjbiz for the info re HJS in Aberdeen, but that's a little bit too far for me to get to from Edinburgh.:ok: