132.15 last night, a question..

[Visual Procedures]

First of all, good effort by the guy on UAE 132.15 last night during the EK rush hour from about 1900z till I left the frequency some time before 2030z. There were a lot of guys with extra requests and unnecessary bleating about their 'margin fuel status', which were all handled with a cool, calm professionalism on an already busy frequency.

We entered the hold at DESDI at FL270 and were given an EAT 49 minutes from then, which didn't help us too much because we only had about 42 minutes holding. As the holding continued all the EAT's of the aircraft (including us) came in a fair bit and the continual revising of EAT by UAE was very helpful.

I understand that EAT's change depending on what DXB offers you, and that they can go in an out. No question there.

Let's say rwy 30L is the landing runway (like last night), I'm in the hold at DESDI, and given an EAT of 2000z. My question is, where will I be at 2000z if the flow continues exactly as planned? Will I be leaving DESDI, changing to approach frequency, or turning base at 12nm at 2000z? Or is it another point entirely?

No animosity intended in this question at all. The difference fuel-wise between leaving DESDI and turning base at 12nm is significant. I figured I'd try and get an answer here before I asked on air next week (and further congest the frequency) when I have the same flight again.

Regards,

VP

[Kapitanleutnant]

Not sure I can answer, but I do know that it's about 2 tonnes from Desdi to 30L... for planning purposes.

K

[canadansk]

I tried to look up an answer for you that would have some validity; however, what I have found is from an outdated Jeppesen manual (page is dated 24 Feb 06) and I quote:

6.5.6.2 Sequencing and Spacing of Instrument Approaches

6.5.6.2.1.1

a) a suitable point on the approach path, in which shall be capable of being accurately determined by the pilot, shall be specified, to serve as a check point in timing successive approaches;

b) aircraft shall be given a time at which to pass the specified point inbound, which time shall be determined with the aim of achieving the desired interval between successive landings on the runway while respecting the applicable seperation minima at all times, including the period of runway occupancy.

6.5.6.2.1.1

The time at which aircraft should pass the specified point shall be determined by the unit providing approach control service and notified to the aircraft sufficiently in advance to permit the pilot to arrange the flight path accordingly.

6.5.6.2.1.3

Each aircraft in the approach sequence shall be cleared to pass the specified point inbound at the previously notified time, or any revision thereof, after the preceding aircraft has reported passing the point inbound.

So what does this mean? I think the "point specified" is the holding point. Hope this answers your question.

Canadansk

[Duh]

""So what does this mean? I think the "point specified" is the holding point.""

Canadansk


BUT....only if leaving that point you proceed directly to the airport/runway via visual or instrument approach to land. Any vectoring or continued holding again and you will become possibly an emergency acft.
As the saying goes......Gas Grass or A$$, no one rides for free :}

[jimmyg]

I have rarely if ever heard a hold clearance with an EFC time; (expect further clearance. to leave hold), or maybe this is only a FAA reg? Although I do believe by doing so, would alleviate quite a bit of unnecessary conversation on a already busy frequency

[Duh]

I remember in the States, you will never ever be given a hold clearance without an EFC time. Never !

[Visual Procedures]

Thanks Canadansk. Your post has clarified it to pretty much the way I understood things.

Although I was hoping for more of a location specific answer from the guys/gals behind the radar in Abu Dhabi. As Duh points out quite often extended downwind vectoring in Dubai can make the EAT a complete waste of time.

Last night however, we turned base at about 12nm at about the time of the last EAT we received. My question stems from wondering if this was just a coincidence or finally some great co-ordination between the neighbouring controllers.

[BusyB]

Duh,
Well, its happened to me at JFK:confused:

[Straight & Level]

According to the UK Manual of Air Traffic Services, CAP 493:

EAT is the time that Approach Control estimate that an aircraft will be able to leave the holding facility, following a delay, to commence its approach to land.

EATs are based on the landing rate and are calculated according to the traffic
situation. They are to be expressed as actual times (not as time intervals) and revised if the situation changes. They are to be passed to aircraft well in advance and revised until the aircraft has left the holding facility.

If, for reasons other than weather, e.g. an obstruction on the runway, the extent of the delay is not known, aircraft are to be advised “delay not determined”. As soon as it is possible for aircraft to re-commence approach procedures, EATs are to be issued.

[Tower Ranger]

I`m with S + L, the EAT is the time that you can expect to leave Desdi and join the crocodile tail for 30L.

[Wiley]

If you're in a 777 and leave DESDI with less than 2 tonnes over and above your min. divert fuel, it's a laid down mezzaire you'll not have min. divert fuel remaining by the time you reach the threshold/MAP.

That's OK if you feel you can commit to destination; another matter altogether if you're not in a position to do that.

[Antman]

Holding at DESDI or BUBIN you should not ask for or get an EAT(expected Approach Time) as the UAE controller has no idea what DXB approach are going to do with you,short vectors or a TMA tour.

What should be asked for and given is an OCT(Onward Clearance Time) as this is all the UAE controller has any control over. IE when he can release you from the hold, not clear you for an approach..

Any correction from the ATC'ers?

PS. An EAT is a time given when you're normally holding at the initial approach fix or beacon for letdown and when you leave that position you're onto the approach, most commonly used in a procedural enviroment.

[lowstandard]

Isnt Bubok the IAF for 30L?

[singleseater]

Antman is totally correct.
EAT's are only issued by the approach control authority and are for leaving the IAF. (ie Lam for LHR)
There are no holds in Dubai airspace, none are allowed. There are no IAF holds for Dubai.
The times you get while in the Desdi or Bubin holds are Onward Clearance times and do not in any way reflect the expected time to the approach.
If you are committing based on these times as issued by area control, then you are not in compliance with the fuel policy. You can still commit, but it must be on the basis of the 2 runways within 2 hrs rule.

[EGGW]

Been discussed ad nauseum before. Take your pick

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/375711-fuel-emergency-dubai-airport.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/378499-expected-approach-times-explained.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/321693-dxb-radar-vectoring-7th-8th.html

Plenty there to enjoy :ugh:

Nice post by the way EKlawyer!

EGGW

[QCM]

Reached Desdi holding with an EAT 20 mn later,20h00Z.
B77W, alternate AUH plus final reserve was 6.2 tons.
Contingency not used 1.1 ton.
Took 1 ton extra on departure.
Made some fuel enroute (300 kg less on taxi,shortcuts,managed to surf on the opt level,...etc...).

So we entered the hold at 19h40Z with 9.4 tons,requesting 2 mn legs.
FMC reserves 6.2t plus 2 tons for the loooooong trip to the threshold 30L gave us roughly 12 mn holding time available before committing...hopefully we were given heading outbound then direct Desdi for Desdi 3T after 8 mn and something like 8.5 t remaining,so no committing :}:}

Loooong downwind,number 5 in sequence,landing around 20h20Z,about 30 mn after leaving the hold,with around 7 tons...was happy of my extra ton on departure...
DXB approach should rule its own holding patterns close to the runway,or manage some slots on departure to deal with a more efficient flow of traffic on arrival IMHO...

[NO LAND 3]

so why take the extra tonne?!

[lowstandard]

Because he is "foreseeing" holding at dxb which would be a factor that would influence fuel consumption. Cont fuel is for "unforeseen" factors as listed in the fuel policy.

If you had a ground hold during taxi at departure due to something unforeseen, then thats a contigency situation.

If you show up at desdi during rush hour suprised you are going to hold for a few turns followed by a long, low and slow downwind having already used your contingency and no extra then its time to review threat and error management.

[Tower Ranger]

QCM
I think the problem is less related to DXB efficiency and more to do with Emirates complete lack of realistic sheduling. We put you on final at the minimum 5 miles in trail as laid down by GCA or the vortex wake spacing and then after two hours of that have a very quiet night on arrivals. If they got their act together you might not have to park on the Charlie bays so often.