Low level question

[JDCP]

How fast can the military pilots fly when doing the low level stuff in the valleys, as seen in the marvellous photos often posted here?

My mate reckons photographers set up several cameras to take multiple pictures (to increase chances of a good image) because the jets fly at supersonic speeds...I said they can't fly that fast when they're zipping down a valley because...they'd be unable to follow the valley's contours??

Answers much appreciated, beer is riding on this!

Thanks.

JDCP.

[oldbeefer]

You get a beer - supersonic not allowed over land, and most of the jets can't go anywhere near that speed anyway.

[airborne_artist]

Imagine the complaints from the Viet Taff if the pointy jets were supersonic through the valleys! The compensation bill for frightened sheep/horses would be even bigger!

[frodo_monkey]

Been off the frontline for a year (now flying slower things) but I seem to recall the max speed for bomber pukes is 480kts - speeding up to 540kts on IP to tgt runs - and for fighter gods 550kts.

Although you can go supersonic overland with little effort in some aeroplanes, you aren't allowed because ClaimsDirect would have a field day. This rule is of course not applicable in the Falklands :oh::O

[GPMG]

So if the welsh suddnley dissapeared :E, what would be the fastest that something like a Typhoon could manage to do the loop? Or is there a quicker jet at low level? F-15? Hawk? Tornado? SU27? Harrier (viffing around the twisties)?

[Fliegenmong]

Down low, & fast you'd be pressed to beat a Pig....you got rid of them years ago...we are too (RAAF)regrettably F-111 with TFR, just superb piece of kit....A chap who goes by the name 'Booger' has some wonderful posts on this site about the red flag meets in the US...fantastic reads...:ok:

[frodo_monkey]

GPMG - Hawk or Harrier?! :}

The Loop is reasonably tight and twisty so any more than (at a guess) 420kts-ish would be pretty hard round there. ISTR that the northern side opens up slightly so you could probably get the hammer down more there (someone from Valley must be on here...).

Fastest thing at low level is probably the F111 although an early 'clean' pre-limits F3 wouldn't be far off - I know someone who posts on here who landed having taken some of the paint off at 'very fast' kts :eek:

Can't speak for the Eagle, Mudhen or Typhoon...

[TEEEJ]

Enjoy your beer! Multiple shots may be taken on a single pass, sometimes afterburners are noted, but the aircraft are not supersonic.

See following videos

mcbHKafEaUs

vwsZbDDBsM8

TJ

[Focks 2]

Been off the frontline for a year (now flying slower things)

Slower than F3? You haven't joined the womens aux balloon corps have you? :p

[High_Expect]

Power is not the issue around the loop as stated.... Available G is (before an overstress) to that end it would be a good race between a Hawk and a Typhoon. Any man who wants to pull 9+ G at low level in a valley is braver than me.... serious grey out territory. :zzz:

You can get a Hawk round easily at 450kts using 7G.... apparently. :ok:

[isaneng]

Anything above 240 Kts tends to spill my tea...............

[Madbob]

As an aside to this thread, with its excellent pictures of various ac in LFA7 I was curious to know if RAF C-130 crew dispensed with their normal headsets and wore helmets with visors when operating at low level?

I've seen Swedish AF and USAF Albert crews wearing helmets but not RAF when flying tactically, presumably when using NVG's but another benefit must be to mitigate the risk of being injured by a bird coming through the windshield.

MB

[Trojan1981]

F-111s are the fastest I've seen over land (yes, supersonic). But I can't think of much more spectacular than the Kiwi A-4s around the Shoalhaven in the '90s. VERY low, quite fast, brilliant:ok:

[SNS3Guppy]

I never wore a hemet in the C-130 when operating low level.

[L J R]

Have to disagree with the person that said you can't go supersonic over land. May I suggest that some of my best memories are at 700 Knots at 100 feet - over land!. (Legally I might add)....and no it was not up the Great Glen (although I have been tempted!!!)

[High_Expect]

There's many an entry in a 5000 that states you CAN go supersonic over land.... :ok:

'disrepute' was in the same sentence.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I seem to remember a certain typhoon pilot recently passing the post whilst over telford, with the chairman of RBS (I think?) in the back seat iirc.....

How much did he pay?!

[grobace]

Olive oil,

- in his dreams, most likely.

[L J R]

F-111F.....and F-111C

[aseanaero]

Years ago I was doing a Nav exercise for my CPL in the South Australian outback and there was an F-111 doing a low level exercise at 250ft AGL, I jotted down the LJ report from Flight service , one leg was 62NM in 6 mins so he was doing 600 plus knots !

I knew Harry Bradford who was an F-111 test pilot with ARDU in South Australia and he said they had a lot of fun making rooster tails of dust from low level high speed runs out on the Woomera test range.

Video of pig pilots having way too much fun !

YouTube - F-111 Low Pass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8124lhm6d7o)

[L J R]

Having time in the GR-4 also, an aircraft I enjoyed I might add, I wish it had more internal fuel (wing tanks=restrictions) but prefer the F-111F for pure thrust and low level 'ride' - manual flying, or Night & IMC etc...

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Olive Oil

I know a couple of fellows who did quite a bit more than 700 knots at low level in the MiG-23 during US exploitations of the type.

The VNe was 860 knots, and one of them is adamant that he witnessed a squadron mate exceed 900.

On this particular occasion, the pilot accidentally overtook two FB-111As enroute to their target in the Nellis ranges, popping up for a GCI vector a number of miles in front of them having initially started in a stern-conversion intercept!

[L J R]

and if you are on the Nellis Range, with the ground at an altitude of some 3000', your TAS & G/S will be proportionally higher :ok:

[Fear The Reaper]

PB is 820KIAS-ish at LL with a 2x2 weapons load - she wanted to go faster but chickened out. Have chased down many a F111 and B1B in the "Fin" in yesteryear who were trying their hardest over the sea.

I do not believe that the F111 is the fastest at LL but it is certainly in a select group of 750KIAS+ class aircraft at LL (others include B1B, F3, F14, Backfire, Blackjack, Fencer and Flogger - funny they all have VG wings!).

On the subject of paint coming off, one of my Sqn mates had the center panel of his windscreen go opaque when he was up around 750KIAS - he slowed down very quick!

Still, FJ days now gone and now on bigger things and slower things I now appreciate that speed isn't everything in life (NOT!) :(

Reaper

[Ewan Whosearmy]

LJR

Indeed, and the FB-111s were flying in the same airmass at the same barometric altitude.

[aseanaero]

700 knots at low level in the MiG-23

Must be an horrendous fuel burn , wonder what the endurance is at that speed and altitude ?

[High_Expect]

Despite Reaper singing the praises of the GR at low level imagine a clean, more streamlined and more powerful version of the Tornado…. Oh yeah the F3. For anyone who has never experienced the low level acceleration demo from 250kts to VNE @ 250ft over the sea. Its like being on the back of a superbike but without the gear changes and it accelerates harder the faster you go. The one time I may have mistakenly exceeded VNE it was still accelerating at over 20kts a second and was rock solid. The rumours of 4 figure IAS indication I can easily believe.

The low level mach 1.2 + club is very small :ok:

[aseanaero]

The low level mach 1.2 + club is very small http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I bet you guys cringe when you see seagulls and pelicans !

[L J R]

Quote:
The low level mach 1.2 + club is very small

......and the mach 1.2 + club at low level for more than 5 minutes is even smaller:D

[MostlyHarmless]

I bet you guys cringe when you see seagulls and pelicans !
I defy anyone to "See" a bird when running along @ 1.2+/250' :)

[aseanaero]

I defy anyone to "See" a bird when running along @ 1.2+/250' http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Probably better like that ! What you don't see or hit won't hurt you

I'm just jealous :ok:

[grobace]

Just to give the lie to Fear the Reaper's VG point, the good old F4 had a limit of 750KCAS on the deck - and 810 at 5,000 ft. But he's quite right, a level acceleration from 250kts in the F3 is awesome. Mind you, L J R's reference to endurance is telling.

[The B Word]

Despite Reaper singing the praises of the GR at low level imagine a clean, more streamlined and more powerful version of the Tornado…. Oh yeah the F3.

I don't see that in his post - only the mention of the "Fin" which covers F3, GR4 and PA200 does it not?

the good old F4 had a limit of 750KCAS on the deck

Granted the Spey engined ones were just about good for this if you stop them flying sideways! JEHOVAH!

B Word

[Lima Juliet]

RUMOUR CHECK

Wasn't the more powerful Spey engined "tombs" actually slower at LL than the J79 engined "tombs" because the airframes were wider and more draggy?

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Firstly, I think the Loop battle would be won by Typhoon, with a Hawk a very close second. 480Kts at the start, is about as fast as is reasonable, redusing to 420ish in the twistier bits (Hawk). F3, best done at 450 in 25 Wg, tried it once at 480 in 45wg, and wished I hadn't! Mayby 35wg would be a go, but 'g' limits would require 'modification'!!

Could the 'Loop' Be the 'TopGear Test track of the skies'? If so..... who is Stig?

Advo

[jimgriff]

Give us locals notice if this is going to happen!:}

[Wrathmonk]

If so..... who is Stig?

BEagle? Although it would mean he would have to remain silent!!!!;):E

[bayete]

"The low level mach 1.2 + club is very small"

..and the loop club of ..eerrm ##Degs AOB while not spilling your coffee and spluttering your pasty all over the dash is 'Long and distinguished'.
'Much like.....'

"Could the 'Loop' Be the 'TopGear Test track of the skies'? If so..... who is Stig?"
Wasn't Stig on 47 in the late 90's?

[Tim McLelland]

As far as the Mach Loop and similar low flying areas are concerned, I'd agree that 420 knots seems like a reasonable sort of speed for most of the types that pass through there (rather less for some of the aircraft of course). As the professionals will doubtless confirm, multiples of 60kt are generally a good idea for easy distance calculations and as has been said 480kt is probably a bit excessive for some of the more interesting parts of these routes, therefore 420kt sounds about right.

Think you'd be very lucky indeed to ever see an aircraft over the UK at anything near supersonic speeds. It would certainly be a one-off! Only times I've ever been treated to a bit of supersonic flying (Lightning, Phantom and Tornado F3) it's been at a pretty healthy altitude - and over the sea! :)

The only occasions when I've witnessed an aircraft getting up to that kind of speed at low level has been the occasional air show incident. One good example was Fred Grundy flying an OCU Tornado F3 at St.Mawgan - he kept the fast pass going just a little longer than normal and produced a very healthy "thud" before pulling up into the vertical near the coastline - I think the spectators remained unaware of his inadvertant party piece. The other very impressive one was courtesy of Axel Osterman in an F-104G at Fairford (prior to the actual air show) when a very loud bang rattled across the airfield. I'm sure some other folks must remember that particular incident.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

OK, nice RAF PR guys, set it up.

Timed Loops by: Hawk with 'May' in as Capt Slow, and 'Clarkson' as Fast fellla. Stars in their reasonalbly priced fighters! May gets a Hawk, Clarkaon gets a Typhoon............ Charge the spotters, take pics / vid Give it all to Charity.

Just an Idea,

Advo

[BEagle]

"The low level mach 1.2 + club is very small"

Sorry for the boom I dropped at low level in the Great Glen - I hope I didn't break any osprey eggs....:ooh:

Also dropped a boom over Norfolk. The 6-digit inbreds probably never noticed...

Both the above were whilst flying the F4. M0.97 increasing in a rapid descent over Bawtry fortunately didn't drop a boom on HQ 1 Gp - I was in one of HM's Tin Triangles at the time.....:uhoh:

I Learned About Rapid Descents From That!

[Tim McLelland]

Personally, I'd rather the RAF maintains a healthy distance from Clarkson and frankly, I can't think of anything more toe-curlingly repulsive than the idea of May and Clarkson playing at adolescent race-driving in Her Maj's finest.

Would be nice if the RAF could "adopt" a more intelligent, articulate and less-bigoted celebrity to shower their attentions on :)

[essdee]

As one (of many) who has flown both Spey and J79 F4s, I can say that both were capable of reaching their limiting IAS at low level. However, I couldn't tell you which would get there first from a standing start.

[Tim McLelland]

Theoretically, the F-4K/M ought to get there first at low level, with the F-4J winning at altitude. Assuming both aircraft were flown clean of course!

[Never Alert]

Clarkson in a Typhoon with May in the Hawk...

Awesome TV & would be easily accomodated within Top Gears huge budget. Make it happen!!;)

Only downside would be if the Typhoon was carrying bombs... Lets not forget what Clarkson did with the Paveway that was sitting under the mudhen he flew in a few years back!

[Dimitris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PF8A11AWTY&feature=PlayList&p=273900329418EE39&index=14