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BEagle
26th Jul 2009, 06:54
A rather scathing view of Incapability Brown's attitude towards the Armed Forces in today's paper:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

From The Sunday Times

July 26, 2009

The army’s been hit by Brown’s unfriendly fire
Michael Portillo

Britain’s military forces are characterised by self-discipline. They submit to a code of conduct which includes the cheerful acceptance of orders from above. Generals are no exception and cope uncomplainingly with the demands placed on them by ministers.

The public criticisms of the resources provided by the government for the Afghan campaign, voiced by Sir Jock Stirrup, the chief of the defence staff, and Sir Richard Dannatt, the chief of the general staff, are extremely unusual. That the two most senior officers in the chain of command have broken with the restraints of a service culture imbued in them since they enlisted as young men suggests an unprecedented level of exasperation.

Their frustration is evidently caused by Gordon Brown in particular. The generals have muddled along well enough with half a dozen defence secretaries since Labour was elected. During Tony Blair’s premiership, the army absorbed the unreasonable strains of deployment in two war zones and alarming casualty rates with no more than a sigh. But now the generals are engaged in a very public row with this prime minister. As though Brown had not already suffered enough humiliation, he is now to be seen contradicting those who command the soldiers sacrificing limb and life in Helmand.

The armed forces rarely get from politicians what they have a right to expect, even though their requirements are simple. Commanders want to know what is the mission and what is the exit strategy. They request they be given the tools for the job and political support from start to finish. Except perhaps during the second world war, politicians have always been fuzzy about objectives, failed to make the adjustments necessary to supply a campaign with men and equipment and wobbled in the face of public anxiety.

Generals recognise those political weaknesses and so normally settle for less. They can manage if ministers at least recognise the value of what the forces do. It used to be that prime ministers and ministers of defence had served in the armed forces and imbibed their ethos. Since the 1970s that has ceased to be the case. The military have met that new challenge by impressing their civilian political masters with their enthusiasm and efficacy.

When I was defence secretary I was deeply struck by those qualities. I felt duty-bound to do everything I could to provide the forces with the money and political support they needed. Most politicians react that way and are equally seduced. Brown appears to be the exception. He has remained aloof.

A former chief of the defence staff, Lord Guthrie, has complained that when he was chancellor, Brown refused the offer of a briefing from the chiefs. That has clearly caused lasting resentment. Any chancellor normally avoids being drawn into departmental policy. His life would be made more difficult if he had to listen to the complaints of every lobby group. Brown took that generally sensible approach to extremes. Over 10 years at the Treasury he cut himself off from the consequences of his policy decisions. In that sense he was no more discourteous to the armed forces than to doctors or teachers.

His indifference to the military is surprising because he always saw himself as a future prime minister. As Margaret Thatcher and Blair appreciated, one of the privileges and joys of entering 10 Downing Street is to become de facto commander-in-chief; and Britain’s armed forces must still be counted among the most effective on the planet. Brown appears unconscious of that honour.

Perhaps because Blair enjoyed the role so much, Brown has set his face against it. Certainly the relationship between Blair and the armed forces was one of mutual infatuation. He may have starved them of resources (or maybe his chancellor did) and he may have made a typically hubristic blunder in committing to Helmand when more soldiers were needed in Basra; but despite that, Blair clearly valued the military and made time to hear their concerns. The army is not alone in missing his charisma today.

Brown’s mood cannot be improved by reflecting that Britain has suffered two military embarrassments since he took over, both traceable to his predecessor’s period in office. British forces lost control of Basra and had to be reinforced by Americans in Helmand. But the army seems to pin blame more on the last chancellor than on the last prime minister.

Whatever the armed forces think of the support they get from governments, they have no complaint about the royal family, which has shown them complete devotion. Its princes have risked their lives on the front line. Brown’s incompetence – or arrogance – in failing to secure the Queen’s attendance at the D-Day anniversary events in France can hardly have endeared him to the military.

It was disgraceful that the monarch, who served in uniform in the second world war, was forced to be absent while Brown represented the UK alongside heads of state from America and France. If there is one thing worse than a prime minister who is unsupportive of the troops, it is one who supplants the monarch and seeks the kudos of being associated with great military successes.

The debacle over equipment shortages in Afghanistan is hard to comprehend. In the early days of operations in Northern Ireland, deaths by bombs and ambushes led the army to operate across “bandit territory” almost exclusively by helicopter. The annual fatality rate fell to single figures, sometimes zero. That improvement was vital to maintaining public support and winning the campaign.

Why are there too few helicopters? Ministers usually decide only the numbers of personnel to be committed, since that is a headline figure they must defend. They would not normally judge how many vehicles should accompany those forces. Either ministers have become involved in settling minutiae well beyond their competence, or under their stewardship the logistical support systems in the Ministry of Defence have collapsed.

In my experience, the armed forces readily give their loyalty and support to the government, however much ministers may fail to live up to the military’s high standards of conduct. Shortly after I became defence secretary I made a crass party political speech in which I cited the SAS motto “Who dares wins”. The military had every right to be affronted and I felt bound to make an abject apology to the chiefs for my error of taste and judgment. They responded by accepting it without reserve. We were able to wind back the clock and start afresh. We then made difficult decisions together and supported each other in defending them.

Today the chiefs’ public show of unhappiness indicates that something has gone very wrong in the relationship between elected politicians and the armed forces. It is extraordinary that the head of the army subjects himself to the humiliation of being flown across Afghanistan in an American helicopter, thus wordlessly demonstrating the shortage of proper equipment available to his men.

The army has embarked on an offensive against the Taliban without being reinforced. Too often it is approaching the enemy overland, squandering its technological superiority. The rate of death and injury is high and, as Stirrup has said, more helicopters would “quite patently” prevent casualties.

Brown (and, to be fair, Blair too) has tried to fight the Taliban with too few troops and on too little money. The government hoped that a small commitment would mean a small death toll, whereas the opposite is true. The paradoxical outcome is that there will now need to be a substantial surge in the British presence in Helmand and the cost will escalate sharply. The only doubt left is whether those decisions will be made by this prime minister or by his successor.

Al R
26th Jul 2009, 08:01
Are we talking about Manuel Portillo? The same guy who, despite stiff opposition from Lord Bramall and the Legion etc still sold off the Married Quarter portfolio to the Japs for a song, just so we could pay beef compensation and provide a 1p cut in the basic rate as an election bribe in the '96 budget?

Phew. In light of his decision, its just as well we don't hear horror stories about MoD housing these days. I don't mind him, in fact I quite like the lad, but he's a hypocrite. He's gay and was quite happy to sit in judgment at MoD and decide that other gays couldn't join up.

And I wonder if the bribe worked?

dallas
26th Jul 2009, 08:04
...squandering its technological superiority
An apposite summary - look out for something similar in the Enquiry in 10 years time.

VinRouge
26th Jul 2009, 12:29
Clarkson's assessment of the one eyed goat was pretty much spot on wasnt it? :hmm:

Melchett01
26th Jul 2009, 14:24
Clarkson's assessment of the one eyed goat was pretty much spot on wasnt it?

Which one would that be? That he's an idiot or that he's a c............?

Two's in
26th Jul 2009, 14:26
Jesus H Christ - Port-a-loo criticizing self serving, incompetent politicians. The Irony is too strong for me in this thread.

VinRouge
26th Jul 2009, 15:12
Which one would that be? That he's an idiot or that he's a c............?

the latter.

doubledolphins
26th Jul 2009, 16:22
Well all those things you say about MP may be right. But that does not make him wrong. Strikes me that he learned from his time in Post. Whilst the One Eyed Northern British Cut Splice seems to become more entrenched in his narrow minded opinion that he is right and the rest of us just dont get it.

VinRouge
26th Jul 2009, 16:54
Who cares? He is part of a dying administration. His party will be dead politically for 2 generations. Unelectable.

Thats how long its going to take for us all to pay off their dirty little spending spree from the past 12 years.

Melchett01
26th Jul 2009, 18:37
Who cares? He is part of a dying administration. His party will be dead politically for 2 generations.

VR that's all well and good. But how many generations will it take the Armed Forces to recover from Noo Labour's systematic destruction of its capabilities and more importantly morale?

I suspect the Labour Party will have recovered and be back in power well before the Armed Forces are back on their feet again.

VinRouge
26th Jul 2009, 18:53
well, cant speak for capability, but I have a chilled bottle of Krug waiting for election night June 2010!

I predict morale will peak around election night next year.

Melchett01
26th Jul 2009, 19:15
Mine won't - my Krug will be on hold as I will be in a 'dry' location. Will have to wait til I get back to celebrate, but by God I'll celebrate.

Blacksheep
27th Jul 2009, 07:32
Well a lot of good men have been killed or maimed defending the creation of a new corrupt Shi'ite state and supporting another bunch of corrupt politicians' ability to control the Afghan heroin trade. Never mind boys, it was The Right Thing To Do.

You can call me a cynical old bastard if you wish, but that's a description that I proudly accept. :(

Mike Rosewhich
27th Jul 2009, 07:57
I still remember the last Conservative Government, and Portillo as Defence Secretary. Much like most very public politicians, self serving hypocrite seems an apt description.

The military didn't come off very well during the previous administration and with the current deficit on the treasuries books I can't help but feel it won't again.


I would hold the Krug for a military coup, then we could really sort out of of this countries problems.

sitigeltfel
27th Jul 2009, 08:47
Maybe the fear of a military coup is why Brown is so keen to keep the military tied up in far away places.

pontifex
27th Jul 2009, 11:27
It's strange, but the best Defence Secretaries aren't always from the party most of us would expect. I have two virtually identical commendation certificates hanging on the wall above me as I type. One is signed by Roy Mason and the other by John Knott. What a difference and which one do I value most? No prizes for your answers.

cazatou
27th Jul 2009, 12:05
pontifex

I half remember the Cocktail Party Roy Mason held at the NI Office for those Service Personnel who flew him to and fro between London and Belfast. One of our RN Pilots didn't surface for a couple of days.

OK - maybe the "half remember" was a bit of an exaggeration.

Blacksheep
27th Jul 2009, 12:27
I remember working 60 hour weeks making sure those aeroplanes were fit and able to carry him and his minions on the daily 'Benbecula' shuttle, but there weren't any cocktail parties. Those long thankless hours on lousy pay were the main reason I left the RAF to pursue my civilian career.

The only person who ever bought the shift a round of beers was the CDS, MotRAF Sir Andrew Humphrey. Now there was an officer and a gentleman.

cazatou
27th Jul 2009, 13:06
Blacksheep

A large number of the sorties were HS125's which were serviced by Civil Contractors. The Andovers flew larger parties and had a longer Crew Duty time - a 14 hour day as opposed to the 12 hours for the 125....and it wasn't Benbecula that was the cover name.

Oh -and I did 14 years on 32 Sqn flying those tasks to NI --- 274 of them!!

cazatou
27th Jul 2009, 15:13
David Smart

The day you were born my crew and I from 32 Sqn were on Active Service in Africa. It was 32 Sqn who flew into Yugoslavia at the height of the conflict there and the Sqn were present during both Gulf Wars. Do you think Ryanair or Easyjet would have volunteered for those tasks?

1825Z
I see he has deleted his Post. Not so "Smart" after all.

Archimedes
27th Jul 2009, 15:36
Is it me, or has the 'David Smart' user account disappeared, complete with postings?

DEFRA
27th Jul 2009, 16:05
It was 32 Sqn who flew into Yugoslavia at the height of the conflict there and the Sqn were present during both Gulf Wars.

I am sure 32 sqn found it tough living in a 5 star hotel in Bahrain whilst everybody else was getting mortared in Basra. :ugh:

Do you think Ryanair or Easyjet would have volunteered for those tasks?

They would probably land as close as 32 do to the action. I do believe it was a Virgin 747 that landed at Basra international though.

pr00ne
27th Jul 2009, 18:03
Mike Rosewhich and sitigeltfel,

A military coup? The military sort out this countries problems?

Get a grip. The military can't even run themselves, let alone the country.

Military Governments, hhmm don't they have a wonderful track record....

BTW,

The coup would be TREASON.

Melchett01
27th Jul 2009, 18:37
But a brace of morally dubious 'conflicts', coupled with an imposed Prime Minister who has bankrupted the country and lies to the population every time he opens his mouth is ok eh?

If it was justified to intervene militarily in Iraq to save the country from a corrupt and evil dictator slowly bleeding his country to death, I fail to see how that reasoning cannot be applied to the current situation the UK finds itself in now.

At least Saddam was 'elected'. Yes Saddam's election was rigged and he won by fear and cheating, but at least he went through the charade of an election unlike our own dear beloved leader. Still want to talk about treason?

cazatou
27th Jul 2009, 18:53
DEFRA

It was a 5 Star Hotel in Riyadh as well - when the scuds were incoming during Desert Storm.

Now my first war was really tough - the Hotel was only 2 star but it did have a swimming pool and it was right next to the Jabberwock Beach Club beside the Caribbean Sea. As it was an FCO sponsored Operation we had to suffer the idignity of being on FCO allowances - which were double the Military ones.

pr00ne
27th Jul 2009, 19:15
Melchett01,

Saddam Hussein more legitimate than the UK Government?

If that's your argument then you are not worth a breath of a reply.

Melchett01
27th Jul 2009, 19:22
prune

Good, then I won't find my blood pressure going off the chart reading your usual shower of Noo Labour spin.

Then again, I don't think I've seen you retreat quite so quickly - may be the truth about this corrupt shower is starting to prick even your conscience.

For once, Noo Labour and its apologists can no longer hide behind 'technicalities' to get them out of the brown and smelly. People now see them for what they really are; their days are numbered. Slowly but surely, common sense and decency will return and we can start to undo the damage Brown et al have caused this country.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
27th Jul 2009, 20:24
Arguably, it is Brown the humourless and his Neu Labia followers that are the true practitioners of treason. The removal, by whatever means, of an out of control Prime Minister is hardly treason. It is simply one element of Her Majesty's triangle of power being reined in by one of her other elements.

Regretably, democracy is so fragile and peevish that the rest of the World would ensure that it would fail and the "enemy within" would then ensure that Her Majesty would cease to exist (not physically, of course). Either way, we must watch our Nation being slowly buggered.

Alas, my dear Melchett01, the waiters have taken over the hotel and only care about the size of the tips.

pr00ne
27th Jul 2009, 20:33
Melchett01,

noo labour spin?

All I ever did was contradict the ignorant when they were claiming defence budget cuts when the budget was actually increasing.

You will find no defence of Brown coming from me, this Govt has displayed an unerring capability for total ineptitude and incompetence and their time has been and gone.

David TONY BLAIR Cameron and his bunch of Eton educated nerds will do precious little for you chaps in defence however. Public spending is going to take a hammering under the next Govt, which I have no doubt will be Tory.

Common sense and decency from a charlatan like Cameron? Please!

NURSE
28th Jul 2009, 09:10
So who will the be the forces sweethearts? Even the Lib dems have realised their pipe dream plans can no longer be afforded.

Cuts in spending actually may be a good thing as it will get rid of some of the useless mouths and dead wood that govt departments are supporting. As long as the cuts are managed better than Nu-Labors splurge in spending was on things like Health & Education.