Sovereign Pay

[NZ X man]

Is 60,000 pounds a bit low for a salary based in the UK for a Captain?

[Daifly]

Yes. Hold out for a lot more :)

[His dudeness]

60000 before taxes equals 69000 €. Lowest offer I had this year was 84K and I thought thats not enough. Mind you, the UK cost of living is a tad higher than on the continent...

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Yes. Hold out for a lot more

Until somebody gazumps the job who will do it for that amount, who has been earning £60 per week from HM Government who no doubt has a family to feed as well!

Would you do it for that if you were out of work? I would!

I think the market has to find a new level for new hires, for those in work right now dont forget to hug your boss and wish him well.

PS Daifly if you were being tongue in cheek then apologies! :ok:

[Treetopflyer]

I saw the add as well for that job. I'd say it's not enough. Most jobs on the Excel / XLS have higher pays... So I guess that employer should pitch in a bit more for a Sovereign Captain.

[oapilot]

Out of interest, how does the FO salary of £35k stack up to the market.

G-SPOTs makes a good point, the two Legacy jobs I've had a sniff of this year paid 10 and 50% less than what I was earning before the axe fell, and my salary before wasn't anything extraordinary.....As my old economics teacher used to say, "you can't fight the laws of supply and demand". At least not unless you run a communist state.:{

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Personally I think the 35k isn't a bad shout in fact pretty good. The Sovereign sort of falls between two stools, the next aircraft up is the Chally 300 (which needs a fairly experienced FO) and the next one down is the Excel. We all know the 680 is a slow stretched 750. My point being you dont need a particularly experienced FO on what is an extremely good into Europe machine with an occasional trip to India/US for example. Bet you'd get a cojo agreeing to work on an XL for 30k think EBJ/LEA so 35k on a 680 is about the mark, you would no doubt get a captain of industry or a CP trying to get it done for less

IMHO :ok:

[hawk560]

Who,s operating the Sovereign is it private or AOC If its private is there a possibility of squeezing any other perks out ?

[His dudeness]

I have flown both types and I find the sovereign more demanding than the 300. Avionics not intuitive on the Sov, Systems integration way better on the 300, flying characteristics way nicer on the 300. Flies a little further but is the north atlantic that much of an issue?

And dont get me started on cockpit size, the sov is sort of a iron maiden.

Want my Chally back buhuhuhuhu... how much is 35k after taxes for a non married lad in the UK?

[CaptainProp]

HM Revenue & Customs: Rates and Allowances - Income Tax (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm)

Looks like 35000 - 6500 (tax free) = 29 000 taxable pay.

29 000 - 22% tax = 22 600

Total pay after tax = 22 600 + 6500 = 29100

CP

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I have flown both types and I find the sovereign more demanding than the 300. Avionics not intuitive on the Sov, Systems integration way better on the 300, flying characteristics way nicer on the 300. Flies a little further but is the north atlantic that much of an issue?

And dont get me started on cockpit size, the sov is sort of a iron maiden.

Want my Chally back buhuhuhuhu... how much is 35k after taxes for a non married lad in the UK?

I should hope so for the extra 5 mill US. Made a 400 metre turnoff on the 680 just last week - just never gets old that :ok:

Captain prop dont forget National insurance on the whole amount of 11%

[ITFC1]

I-resign.com - UK Tax Calculator (http://www.i-resign.com/uk/financialcentre/tax_calculator_tool.asp?txtGrossSalary=35000&radAge=1&txtStudentLoan=0)

Try that web site, and it will tell you that 35K brings home £501 a week, £2172 a month and 26K a year

[His dudeness]

Made a 400 metre turnoff on the 680 just last week

Impressed!

These 29,6K or 26K - that is just after taxes. No Pension ect?

[Triple Nickel 8 Ball]

Sorry.....did someone say £60k is too low for a Sovereign jockey?? In the current climate....I wouldnt have thought so. :ugh:

People wonder why owners are selling planes and AOC's failing all over the place (or at best, struggling to break even/stay afloat) when they're expecting stacks more cash than reasonable for a job.

£60k a year is about £2k a year less than offered for a Line Captains job I saw in a Hawker 800....so....take it with both hands, be thankful and see what happens at pay review time in 12 months. Dont hold out for another £15k, because somebody will see £60k per year and rip their arm off....I would....and then you'll be left with nowhere to sit when the music stops! :hmm:

[His dudeness]

People wonder why owners are selling planes and AOC's failing all over the place (or at best, struggling to break even/stay afloat) when they're expecting stacks more cash than reasonable for a job.

Oh yes, the poor owners sell their shiny new airplanes because of greedy crews.

Thanks for the best laugh in a long time.

[Triple Nickel 8 Ball]

Heres me.....heres my point.....and here is HIS DUDENESS ¨I CANT FIND IT....I CANT FIND THE POINT¨! :=

Demanding high salaries does nobody any favours. Getting paid the going rate is the best way forward and in this case, the money mentioned is about the going rate....maybe a little shy of it. A very wise, very experienced, straight talking aircraft operator I used to fly for once said ¨If a person is going to be a whore, be that an aviation whore or otherwise, then they should be the best bloody whore they can be and should charge the going rate!¨. A crude way of putting it maybe....but it makes sense.

You know, the cost of the crew may not be the be all and end all for an aircraft owner, but it could very well be a contributing factor when it comes to weighing up keeping or selling his Jet. How many hotel nights can be bought for say the additional 20k? Or how much maintenance? Or how many handling/airport fees, or crew expenses/meals etc etc etc??

Seems to me like HD has a chip on the shoulder....maybe even has the wrong temperament for the trade?? Maybe wishes he was the guy in the back and not the guy up the front? Long gone are the days when being the jockey up front meant having the prestige, social status and cash that the guy in the back has.

[His dudeness]

Wellwellwell, so earning good money does no good? Allright then, lets fly for food, or rather nothing.
I dunno about you, but I´m in this here profession to earn money. I had to bring a lot of enthusiam, sweat AND money to get where I am today. The 'other' side - employers - cancelled the contract the workforce once had with certain employers: you treat me well and I´ll threat you good. NOWADAYS they want all for nothing, good work , spirit, knowledge etcetc. IF they FAIL, well then its our problem. If we fail, our problem again.
If you would know me, then you would know that I don´t give a toss on uniform, status, being called: captain etcetc. In fact I´m the first to slip out the uniform and wear jeans. I always regard my profession of being a craftmanship, nothing less and nothing more.


There is maybe a difference between owners that actually own the airplanes and the AOC, and just aircraft owners. However, I myself and many others that I know, have been married to their jobs also in the meaning of being underpaid and overworked. And I don´t know a single person that was rewarded for his loyalty.

Regarding the difference of a well paid and a underpaid crew, if you look at the overall costs, then it should dawn on you that the crewages are just the cream. The pain is other things, but if Mr.Iownashinyjet comes to Mr. ATC and says: now mate, gotta cut my spendings, you get less than before, then this won´t work. But with crews, it apparently will.

Would I like to be the guy in the back? Sure would, it means you can afford a bizjet. Sitting up front never meant being rich anyways.

And yes, you can f... me for the correct amount of Euros. Emphasizing: CORRECT amount of. If you do it for less, so be it.

[Miles Magister]

HD speaks quite a lot of sense.

I worked for an owner who paid well, inc tips and his total annual costs went down when I opperated his nice aeroplane for a couple of years.

I also have done some part time work for an owner who only wishes to pay part time money but wondered why I was not avaialble full time and his other tasks were never properly completed by the part time staff he used on low rates!

It is all a business and you get what you pay for, if you wish to have the quality of HD then expect to pay for it and the results will be delivered.

MM

[Triple Nickel 8 Ball]

:rolleyes: I dont get it. You're saying that you consider £60k per year the equivalent of working for food....or for free?? That's not what I said is it? I said that you should charge the going rate....the going rate for a Sovereign Captain is about the £60k-£65k mark as an average and that this sum is pretty good. If you think that is a paultry sum, then you're clearly doing well depsite being so seemingly miserable in what you do and you should be thankful....not "have it in" for all aircraft owners.

We all have to put up in the Corporate world, of flying people round with huge sums of cash....but hey, what does it matter? When you're lying on your death bed one day in the future, taking your last gasp of air, you'll realise it doesnt matter a jot.

It sounds like you've had a bit of a volatile working relationship with your employers, be them past, present or both. I guess it's all relative. I still inject as much enthusiasm into my job as I can, depsite the downs I have to encounter and of course, I appreciate the ups.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

TN8B

You have a point - its exactly the point I made regarding new hires above, but with respect having a go at HD on your 2nd post on prune with "In the fast lane.....MOVE OVER" under your title isn't going to be helping you get that point across.

If thats your going rate for a 680 Captain then Im doing well, If I was out of work of course I'd happily do it for 60k, would I then jump ship to anoher operator at a moments notice for more cash in the future........of course I would.

The guy in the back gets EXACTLY what he pays for - pay less - get less.....less loyalty, less availability, less aircraft husbandry, less everything.

Im lucky my boss could well have save himself 5k per year by blaming the recession and topping and tailing my salary and benefits - he didn't and I'll still hopefully be with him in 2012 when your "going rate" is more than what I'm on now. That 5k he saved just bought him a whole lot of loyalty and in terms of availability a "the answers yes whats the question" attitude

HD is still doing just as good a job as he was 3 years ago on the same aircraft, why not defend your Ts & Cs? After all the aircraft still needs flying and Im not sure about yours but my aircraft has no idea we're in the middle of a recession.

In short:

New hires...... take what you can get
Existing Hires.......hug your boss

[PPRuNeUser0215]

G Spot, HD:ok::ok:

[His dudeness]

"I dont get it. You're saying that you consider £60k per year the equivalent of working for food....or for free?? That's not what I said is it? I said that you should charge the going rate....the going rate for a Sovereign Captain is about the £60k-£65k mark as an average and that this sum is pretty good. If you think that is a paultry sum, then you're clearly doing well depsite being so seemingly miserable in what you do and you should be thankful....not "have it in" for all aircraft owners."

You don´t. (get it) Irony is clearly not your strong point.
60 to 65K is to little pay for a Sov captain. IMO. I don´t consider this sum as being good. The sovereign is capable of going long stretches and it often does. Meaning long flight times and times away from home. Thats what matters, apart from experience and knowledge one should have to do such flights. I´m doing well and I am thankful. I´m not miserable. The aircraft owners can afford a 16 to 18 million dollar airplane but 20-30 K a year is too much? What can you safe with intelligent fuel tankering, directs, let alone maintenance etcetc., ask yourself and you know that the potential to save is huge. That given, the guys in the back would not hesitate to ask for huge amounts for this sort of advise, should THEY be asked for it (think about an advisor or bankers or the like)

I see my job as getting people from A to B with as little expense as possible and as much expense as needed to do it safely. I find it only naturely to ask them for an adequate compensation. (which comes very natural to them)
E.g.: I did make an operations manual which was crosschecked by a law firm. It went through without a single change and then went to the authority that nodded as well. Do you know what the lawfirm asked and was paid for that check? My boss is a lawyer himself, so he knew exactly what would come along. The amount is about twice the difference between 65K and what I consider as being a decent Sov captains pay. That money was simply wasted. So if they can waste such amounts, why should I....


"We all have to put up in the Corporate world, of flying people round with huge sums of cash....but hey, what does it matter? When you're lying on your death bed one day in the future, taking your last gasp of air, you'll realise it doesnt matter a jot."

I never disputed that. In fact, the only thing that matters to me in this respect is wether I lived a life that enables me to look at myself in the mirror without having to vomit. I started my career as an electrician, worked my way into cooperate aviation and if I´m lucky enough to finish out as a pilot, good. If not (which I consider likely given oil shortage etcetc), I won´t die of shame.

"It sounds like you've had a bit of a volatile working relationship with your employers, be them past, present or both. I guess it's all relative. I still inject as much enthusiasm into my job as I can, depsite the downs I have to encounter and of course, I appreciate the ups"

I had good and bad in the past, my current employers are absolutely okay.
My overall experience is: if you do more than your contract says, nobody will give you credit for that. If the company asks more than on the contract and you don´t do it, everybody will know it in no time. And this is out of balance in my opinion.
Having said that, I will do my best at all times, but I won´t do it when been dramatically underpaid.

Going back to the pay, sure its all relative, if you fly twice a week for a few hours and are home the most time, than it might be okay to pay 65K.(who does that in a Sov?) But if you going to be overnighting some 130 days a year and do, say, 500-600 hrs, then it is too little. Especially if it is a 24/7/365 outfit, that wants you to move etcetc. Way to little. IMO. Your are entitled to your own opinion of course.

My company considered selling the airplane, put it up for sale and no buyer with reasonable priced offers showed up. So they kept the airplane. I have ALL figures of the airplane costs here and the crew - despite being payed well - is a very small number compared to the rest. The hangarage alone is more then my F/O´s pay.
IF we would have offered to fly for half (then being well below 65K) it would have changed nothing - this info is from the CFO directly.
Think about that. I did.
BTW, board members renewed their contract in said time period and I did not see a press release on lower pay for board members, from which I draw the conclusion that has been no pay cut for them. Think about it. I did.


For a long time in my working history I thaught not being too greedy and just work well and beyond expectations would save me. It does not, that is my experience. Therefore I try to play the game by 'their' rules take what you can for good work.
For anyone with a different experience, good on you!