Not your everyday touch and go in a F-104

[con-pilot]

The title says it all.

http://www.aerodrome-gruyere.ch/video/touch-roll-touch/

If posted before, sorry about that.

[Pontius Navigator]

Con- nice video.

Not seen the video before but that is what the BAF did at RAF Cottesmore air show about 1966 only not from take-off.

It did straight rolls at 20 feet down the runway then the touch-go-roll-touch-go-roll a few times. Maybe it was for that Major that they did it again.

Our Wg Cdr Ops (Base Commander equiv) shot down the taxiway to the tower to throw all the red cards he could find. Unfortunately the pilot could not understand English :}

What really worried the Wg Cdr was the 3 nuclear armed bombers off the end of the runway and the worry of a large hole on the runway.

[GPMG]

Shouldn't there be a speech bubble coming from the guy in orange overalls at 14 seconds who walks off?
Something like:

"Bloody poncey show off"

or

"You think that's good, I can do better than that".


Nice vid, although the Starfighter looks better in either poloshed Aluminium with Stars and Bars, or Green Camoflage with Old fashioned german crosses on it.

[Albert Driver]

Remind me again, how many F104s were lost?

[FantomZorbin]

Is that the "Mad Major" who did a fast fly-past (just below the speed of sound!) at Finningley in '69 with loads of pamphlets stuffed in his airbrakes? When he deployed said brakes the airfield was covered in confetti as the bumph was instantly shredded - we were picking it up for weeks!!

Bl**dy impressive tho' :D

[Buster Hyman]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa16/Theo03/TigerF-104.jpg

[Gainesy]

Round about the same timeframe there was a barking mad Belgian AF Warrant Officer who did "Crazy Flying" in a Mirage V, low, slow and kicking it all over the place.:uhoh:

[VinRouge]

Unless this was an authorised display (highly unlikely) a very good reason why I am glad I never flew yesteryear.

The guy doing that was quite frankly asking for it. Especially in a jet with a reputation like the F104.

Didnt Bader lose his legs by doing something remotely similar?

[rogerk]

Over the plains of North Germany in a Sioux in the days the Luftwaffe had the dreaded Starfighter.

Observer with many hours to shiny new pilot just out of Wallop.

“Starfighter 10 o’clock”

Pilot in cocky tone.

“Seen”

Pause ……………………..

Pilot in “brown trousers” mode.

“Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeet !!”

Observer now with cocky tone.

“Yip they usually come in pairs !!”

:E:E

[soddim]

The display in question was extremely well performed by a gifted and competant aviator. Furthermore it was an authorised display and it is somewhat crass to criticise such a professional display of the 104 which was a very fine aircraft when maintained and flown by professionals.

[thunderbird7]

But it wasn't called the Widowmaker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd0CbIwRd1Q) for nothing. Great aeroplane though, Kelly Johnson's finest.

[fltlt]

Soddim that says it all. Used to be know what you can and can't do with your aircraft, that was a trademark of a professional. Sorry guys, but nowadays it appears to be more of "Resources Management/Risk Avoidance" game. Dark tales surround the 104, but with someone in the seat who really knew and liked the a/c, it was a pilot's plane, pure and simple. I am probably wrong about the above, so I will run for the door, or at least try.

[biscuit74]

Didn't we lose more Lightnings as a percentage of total force deployed than the Luftwaffe did with their Starfighters?

I seem to recall some fairly spectacular Lightning displays in the 'good old days', notwithstanding.

[VinRouge]

Hence why I said

Unless this was an authorised display (highly unlikely) a very good reason why I am glad I never flew yesteryear.
Want to comment on that chaps options if he lost his (single) donk (low level birdstrike or severe surge) at ultra low level, low energy and inverted?

but nowadays it appears to be more of "Resources Management/Risk Avoidance" game.Well, having far fewer eggs to protect in the basket, I suppose pointless inverted low speed flypasts would be excellent front-line training for our boys and girls. Bugger the fact that accidents per flying hour were quite frankly something I wouldnt want to return to no matter how exciting the 'buzz'.

[Albert Driver]

IIRC Didn't Susse Jacobs later lose his life attempting to repeat this manoeuvre?

[VinRouge]

Yep.

How the team was born
In 1966 Major Bill Ongena, who was the official demonstration F-104 pilot of the Belgian AF and incidentally also one of the original members of the Acrobobs aerobatic team (precursor of the Red Devils team) flying Meteor F.8, was promoted to a new function in the national defence office.He was succeeded by Captain François "Susse" Jacobs, who had been part of the Red Devils demo team while they flew the Hawker Hunter. Unfortunately Susse lost his life soon after taking up the assignment. On the 2 September 1968, during the taking of an episode of the French television series "Les Chevaliers du Ciel" something went wrong during a "touch-roll-touch-and-go" manoeuvre and Susse was killed in spite of a last-minute ejection.
After this crash the General Staff of the Belgian AF banned all demos on the F-104. Only after lengthy discussions with the concerned authorities and a lot of personal efforts by Colonel Paul De Wulf, CO of Beauvechain AB and another of the original members of the Acrobobs aerobatic team, permission was granted to re-start the demo flying with the Starfighter.

The Slivers (http://www.best-of-flightgear.dk/slivers.htm)

[lsh]

Remember the German Navy team?
One of them did a slow flypast and caught your attention,
his mate came through underneath him at .9 (?) and frightened the s*it out of you!
Good display, never forgotten.
lsh

[GeeRam]

The Vikings.

I remember at RIAT on I think maybe their last visit, 85 or 86 ish?, when the low fast pass under the slow pass caused a moderate 'bang' as he just nudged the 'forbidden' zone :E

[sitigeltfel]

Didn't we lose more Lightnings as a percentage of total force deployed than the Luftwaffe did with their Starfighters?

I believe that to be the case. The Lightnings tended to end up in RAF Dogger Bank, where no one was looking, and the pilot picked up by SAR. The F104, when it took out Herr Schmidts barn, created a lot more publicity, and casualties.

[BEagle]

Germany lost 31.8% of its F104s in accidents, with 116 pilots killed

98 Lightnings were lost out of 337 ever built, a loss rate of 29.1%.

The Royal Navy lost 37.9% of its Sea Vixens in accidents, with 51 aircrew killed.

[Gainesy]

the low fast pass under the slow pass caused a moderate 'bang' as he just nudged the 'forbidden' zone

I was in someone's hostility chalet having luch when this occured. Said bang caused some chap on our table to jab his chin with his fork.:)

[Fortissimo]

Ah, the Viking Pair! I was also there but outside one of the hostility chalets - much amusement at sight of one of the Victor crew who tipped his strawbs and cream into his own lap when the boom arrived.

Same effect on flying suits could probably have been seen across on airside at the aircrew party. Anyone else remember the dancers?! ISRT that the decision to bring them off the stage was so popular that even full cans of beer were thrown at 'the management'....

[xrba]

Beaten [% wise] by the dreaded Skymeter, 39 out of 76 [51.3%]!!

[BEagle]

Yes, it all seemed to go downhill rather for Supermarine after the Spitfire....

Spiteful/Seafang - too late. So they came up with the Attacker - basically a jet Spiteful, complete with tailwheel. It was in service for a mere 3 years with the Fleet Air Arm.

Then they fitted swept wings to the Attacker, a bigger engine and (eventually) a nosewheel, that became the Swift. Rather a disaster. 56(F)'s history albums contain lots of photos of the wretched things looking rather sorry for themselves. But a few brave souls rushed around Germany at low level in the FR5 version.

And finally the Scimitar. Maintenance hungry and accident prone, it seems. Although when everything worked, it was apparently quite popular.

[NickB]

The Royal Navy also lost 50% of their Scimitars. Perhaps not all to accidents, but still a very high attrition rate.

[Gainesy]

Methinks that is what xrba is refering to.

[NickB]

Roger that! :O

[saudipc-9]

nowadays it appears to be more of "Resources Management/Risk Avoidance" game

Fair enough but I like it that way. I like to drink with my friends at the mess and not at their funerals.

a professional display of the 104 which was a very fine aircraft when maintained and flown by professionals.

They usually are right up to the point that they fly into the ground.
Hey don't get me wrong I love a good beat up and blow-by but we don't have to be stupid about it.

[fltlt]

"Beat up and blow by" any fool can do, and have done. Some got away with it, a lot didn't. We all collectively said "Damn Idiot" and moved on. Doesn't take much skill, just a lack of brains. However a demonstration of the capabilties of both the pilot and the aircraft in other than "normal flight regime" ie: 5 ft off the deck at 500 knots, shows what can be done and how to, within the envelope. In my day, it was always the pilots thorough understanding and knowledge of the actual capabilities of his aircraft along with the ability to use them that made the difference of who came out on top. Still hang around with fast mover crews at times and nothing seems to have changed. And you still get to drink with your buddy's in the bar after. Remember the old line, from where I can't remember: "You can teach a monkey to fly better than that". Maybe all the past generations have said the same thing about the next? No disrespect, but if I had have wanted risk reduction etc, I could have gone and flown for BOAC.
Just my tuppence worth.
Door closing behind me.

[fade to grey]

well I don't care if it was authorised or not, that is still an amazing bit of flying either way, it looks a little scary as well

[saudipc-9]

"You can teach a monkey to fly better than that".

Battle of Britain (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain_(film)#Memorable_quotes)

I guess there must be a fine line between "Damn Idiot" and "Wow that fellow really knows his aircraft with that 5ft 500kt pass"

Oh well, I'll just have to settle with 420kts at 250ft agl which I'm off to do right now:p