Oxford Aviation Academy. What does everyne think of it?

[Locarno1]

Hi,

My name is Tristan Marchent and live in the UK. I am 16 and have just finished my GCSE's at private school. I am thinking of doing Physics, Maths, Music and Music Technology for my AS Levels and droppng maths for my A2 levels. After this, whch will be in the year of 2011, I am going to apply to go into Oxford Aviation Academy or CTC Wings courses (Both Intergrated). I have heard many thngs about Oxford and CTC, both good and bad. I did go to an open day at Oxford earlier this year and i thought it was amazing! Really enjoyed it. Just wondering if anyone has any information on how good or bad Oxford Aviation Academy and CTC Wings are. This is because i cannot decide which one to go to. This would be a great help!

Thanks guys,

Tristan M

[ford cortina]

oh dear.... Tristan, I drive a 737NG, I am 39 and work in a unfashionalbe part of the world. I have home in Blighty with my lady.

I have no opinion on Oxford Cabair etc, they all look great in the brochures and when you see them, it does not mean they are any good. I went modular and would do again.

I will say this to you young man, you have a very good education, use it, go to Oxford or Cambridge get a good degree, it might one day come in useful.
Best of luck in whatever course of action you take.

[Locarno1]

Me going to Oxford or Cambridge?? I am not that clever but thanks for the advice

[ford cortina]

Okay so go to a good university, I wish I had. My sister did and it was the best years of her life. Seriously at 24 you have still got lots of time ahead to become a pilot:cool:

[GearDownFlaps]

Have you seen the price ????? or is that something for pater to deal with ??.
Seriously screw integrated , there are hundreds of little blue holders out there at the moment some of them payed 35 grand for it and some payed 80 grand , and they are all unemployed , forget glossy brochures and marketing eejits , go with common sense , go for the 35 grand UB40 .
And take the advice and go to uni

[Locarno1]

One thing we havent tlked about is the price. £80,000 for OAA Intergrated and another sum of money for University!. Intergrated is the quickest but most expensive there is. Lots of pilots who have come out of OAA or CTC have landed jobs. So why go to university? Yes i probably will go to University if i dont become an airline pilot.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

You have a damn good time for 3 years, come out with a good degree, in a subject that makes you employable in another sector that pays infinitely better than our sector????

Any other reason?

Seriously, you have age WAY on your side, do the Uni thing, enjoy the experience(s), then you will have YEARS on your side to join our daft game, honestly. :)

[Whirlygig]

Intergrated is the quickest but most expensive there is.You're right about it being the most expensive but, if you put your mind to it and plan accordingly, you can do the modular in the same length of time as integrated.

Cheers

Whirls

[LH2]

I am not that clever

Yes ,we knew that from the point when you said you wanted to be a pilot. As for the rest, what Cortina said. You can always go for it latter in life and do it for fun or even for (a small) profit, but make sure you have a comfortable financial cushion before taking that step.

Good luck with your A levels.

[hollingworthp]

Troll :}

[quant]

Fine institution if you can afford it. I financed my brother through OAA, it cost me nearly £90k to do so but he has landed a job with flybe (albeit in the hold pool for now).

I would stay clear of integrated courses for now. Personally i've gone down the mod route and i'm loving every minute.

Stay in education, get your A-levels, get a degree, by the time you have done all that we should all be merry men again (this is the point www comes on and destroys your dreams :oh: )..over to you www - only joking ;)

Good luck young one and may the force be with you :)

[disco87]

You sound like a bloody great brother! I wouldn't mind one like you.

[Locarno1]

I have the financial backing from my parents who will support me through the course with fees and such like. By going to uni. there is even more money to spend out on! This is how i see it:

1.Go and do my a-levels
2.Apply to OAA in 2011 and get in (lets just say i do)
Finish the course, loved every minute of it, and pass exams and have my IR, CPL and frozen ATPL licenses.
3. Apply or wait a few months for an offer to come (by this time the economic down time will be over hopefully)
4.lets say flybe contact me for an interview, i go along and go in their sim, if all goes well i land a job!!
5. Training etc.
6. Amazing job, good airline, nice aircraft, very good pay, then finally pay back the money to my parents for the OAA Course.
7.We are all smiling!:D

[Flintstone]

... get in (lets just say i do)........ wait a few months........ by this time the economic down time (sic) will be over hopefully................lets say flybe contact me for an interview.........if all goes well i land a job!!..............then finally pay back the money..........

Locarno.

I've stayed out of this one because I think you're trolling but I just know that sooner or later some poor soul seeking guidance will come here, use the search function (rare, but it happens) and in the absence of advice to the contrary think this is a good idea. So, for their guidance I've quoted some of your last post for them to read the relevant parts. Italics are a clue.

[Boing7117]

Yeah I'm fairly sure you're pulling a fast one here Locarno1 but on the off chance that you're not...

Go to university. You're planning ahead which is good. I was in a similar situation to you at 16 - planning A-Levels and not much thought for uni. GO TO university - get some life experience - get yourself some sort of educational stature which might allow a fall-back option in this every-increasingly insecure working sector.

Don't just count on getting a job with FlyBe (in fact don't count on getting a job at all - you wouldn't be the only one!)

Frankly Mr Shankly said it - and I'd agree - time for you is in abundance - no need to rush - bide your time. Honestly, you'd be a better person / pilot for it!

[Locarno1]

My GOAL in life is to be an airline pilot. Not a Doctor, Teacher, scientist. A pilot! is what i want to be. So what is the point in going to University when you will come out with a degree and then go straight into OAA and spend out on even more money and therefore your degree is wasted and all that money that you spent on is wasted. I have been looking at requirements for airlines and most of them dont say about degrees. So whats the point. I will have a better time at OAA than at Uni!. I aks one more question.. Has any of you posting on this topic been to OAA or CTC? Because that was the question i asked at the beginning or what i was trying to imply.

[Bruce Wayne]

Lots of pilots who have come out of OAA or CTC have landed jobs

There are more that haven't landed jobs than those that have.

Go to Uni.. get a degree.. work for a couple of years put cash away and be hard about it.. don't blow it on cars and endless nights out..

then by your mid 20's you will have a degree have working experience which will make you more employable out of an integrated course

[INNflight]

Finish the course, loved every minute of it
:D

or wait a few months for an offer to come
:D

good airline, nice aircraft, very good pay
:D

We are all smiling!
:D

Keep us posted buddy, I agree uni is not for everyone, and by the sound of it, this is gonna be bloody entertaining for the next few years! :ok:

[BigGrecian]

Oxford Aviation Academy. What does everyne think of it?

I'm going to raise a point I bet most people don't think about - poor quality CPL training.

Ask what happened when they had different CAA examiners from their in house ones come and examine the students? Everyone failed.

[spider_man]

I have limited experience of both OAA and CTC and both are very good provided you make the effort too. However, alot can change in the next two or more years before you intend to commence a course (management, staff, instructors, price!)

I also had exactly the same ideas as you when I was 16. You will find the majority of your class mates will go to university, and some will stay on further to complete a post graduate degree. An integrated course is not the same experience as going to university. I would be tempted to get a mainstream degree whilst you have the chance - 3 years sounds like a long time but it will fly by! Go through the process of applying to universities the same time as everyone else. If aviation is red hot in 2011 you will then have a choice to make BUT at least keep as many options open to you at all times.

[Bealzebub]

Tristan,

I know you are only 16 and you are looking for positive reinforcement of the ideal scenario you have created for yourself. That is fantasy and it is fine. The scenario you alude to above, is at best badly written romantic fiction. You start off quite well, but then leave out big chunks of any allusion to reality.

I have the financial backing from my parents who will support me through the course with fees and such like. By going to uni. there is even more money to spend out on! This is how i see it:
Good. Support from parents that is recognised and properly employed, is an enormous help in overcoming many of the financial obstacles and some of the emotional pitfalls in embarking on any project or term of study. I am not sure from the way you have punctuated this paragraph, whether they are supporting you by going to university, or whether you believe doing so simply adds to the total costs, but in any event their support should be gratefully embraced.
1.Go and do my a-levels
Yes most definitely a good idea, and study to get good results in them as well.
2.Apply to OAA in 2011 and get in (lets just say i do) Finish the course, loved every minute of it, and pass exams and have my IR, CPL and frozen ATPL licenses.
Have you considered the necessity of also obtaining a class 1 medical certificate before that. A not insignificant number of people find this the first major hurdle. Without it, you cannot obtain the necessary licence. Have you done any flying lessons? Not everybody finds the reality lives up to the romantic notion. Why do you assume you would have "loved every minute of it"? Most courses have periods of tedium and difficulty. This one is no different.
3. Apply or wait a few months for an offer to come (by this time the economic down time will be over hopefully) Apply or wait? Dear God, even in times of economic boom, you would be doing plenty of both. 200 hour CPl holders are not what the airlines are after. They want experienced type rated applicants who start generating revenue with minimum input cost. In recent years those integrated candidates who have moved into affiliated airlines type rating courses, have done so because the airline has been enticed to swap input costs for salary. As this practice grew, the jobs that used to exist at the entry level have become revenue earners that need to be churned over. Some of those pilots that became wrapped up in this churn, have found that the vacancies they hoped to fill as a result of their minimum experience are not there, as other airlines have also adopted these practices. What so many people fail to appreciate is that in previous economic cycles, these practices were almost non-existent. The result of them is being masked at the moment by the lack of activity. An economic upturn will simply see a resurgence of these practices. The first officers seat is less of a job and more of a revenue seat at an increasing number of companies.
4.lets say flybe contact me for an interview, i go along and go in their sim, if all goes well i land a job!! Bearing in mind my answer to your point number 3, FlyBe is a pioneer of the new MPL licence with its own form of distinctive integrated training. This is an airline specific tailored course that leads on to a type rating and employment within that specific airline. There are commitments within the programme that mean these candidates are likely to have precedence over any other applicants to the company for similar jobs. That company is investing in buildings and infrastructure as a part of this new course. There is a great deal of financial risk (albeit with some element of sponsorship or deferred payment,) on the part of the successful candidates, with the benefit to the company of lower salary scales for the end product and recovery of the sponsorship / deferred payments. These schemes might well be the way of the future, and something for you to research further. Competition is very keen and few are selected. Some of those who are not selected will still be invited to train with the affiliated flying schools (including your own preferred school,) at the candidates own expense, without any of the schemes employer tie ins. In other words, no luck with the airline, but the school still wants your business.
5. Training etc. With whom? It is easy to gloss over this vital bit of the puzzle, but who is providing and financing this training? In all probability the training will be something you have to pay for out of your pocket, without any guarantee of anything. Completion of this will still leave you as a little face in a very big crowd. Those "etc's" too can be very significant. They are the realities and changes that affect your life and circumstances.
6. Amazing job, good airline, nice aircraft, very good pay, then finally pay back the money to my parents for the OAA Course.
Where to begin? Ignoring the immense difficulty of achieveing any job at all, much less one that is "amazing", what is your concept of "very good pay"? A cadet salary of £2000 a month before tax/national insurance. Then deduct your repayment costs to the airline or bank for any training loans/bonds you are commited to. Deduct your minimum living costs per month for accomodation/food/clothes/transport/telephone/internet/electric/gas/council tax/ TV licence/insurances/entertainment/subscriptions/depreciation/etc. Deduct costs your employer may compulsory subject you to, but doesn't meet themselves. Then work out how much is left to pay back mum and dad for the OAA course? I would imagine mum and dad have already written off any realistic prospect of seeing this money back in their lifetime. If they haven't they should!
7.We are all smiling! :D Well I am certainly smiling. None of this appears to provide for any of the myriad of obstacles that affect even the most successful, lucky, and committed of applicants. As I said at the start this is nothing more than romantic prose. As you research further you will realise this and gain a better understanding of the realities of what is involved. You are 16 now. Revisit this thread in 2 years time when you are 18 and have sat your A-levels. It will be interesting to see how your perception has changed with regard to the 7 bullet points, and also how the economic landscape has also changed in that time.

[Locarno1]

Have you done any flying lessons?

Yes i am currently training for my PPL. Already passed my Air Law exam and have gone solo which was really good! Hope to get my license by next year!

It just seems that all of you are saying that it is very hard to become a pilot and seems like you turning me away from my lifelong dream. THIS IS WHAT I WANT!! Not a degree! I know its hard and i understand that but i am tough and i can work through it all and i will make it to that right hand seat.

[Defruiter]

It may be what you want but it doesn't necessarily mean you will get it. Being a pilot is one of those jobs were you can either do it or you can't. Not everyone who has the same dream as you will make it. You may not make it, you just don't know.

If you don't have a uni degree, you are taking a big risk. Yes, you may do it and get there, but you may not. If you don't, in 5 years time when you are cleaning toilets for a living, you will be kicking yourself. Having a degree is something to fall back on just in case the pilot career doesn't "take off" (excuse the pun).

Unfortunately, you are just about to enter the real world where not everything is as pretty as it may seem. The quicker you learn that, the better ;)

[Locarno1]

Ok thanks for the help. Lets break this down a bit. Look at Graduate jobs in 2009 and 2008 at OAA:

GRADUATE JOBS 2009
(Updated 22 June 2009)


AIRLINETOTALAER LINGUS
2
AIR SOUTHWEST
1
AMSTERDAM AIRLINES
1
BLINK
1
FLY NIKI
1
KENYA AIRWAYS
1
KLM
1
NETJETS EUROPE
15
RYANAIR
38
THOMAS COOK
6
TOTAL FOR 200967

GRADUATE JOBS 2008


AIRLINETOTALABELAG
1
AER LINGUS
3
AFRIQIYAH AIRWAYS
1
AIR ASIA
6
AIR GREENLAND
1
AIR ONE
2
AIR SOUTHWEST
6
AMSTERDAM AIRLINES
2
ARKEFLY
1
BA CITYFLYER
1
BMI REGIONAL
2
BRITISH AIRWAYS
36
BRUSSELS AIRLINES
1
CITYJET
1
DARWIN AIRLINE
1
DHL
4
EASYJET
1
FLYBE
21
JETSTREAM EXECUTIVE
1
KELOWNA FLIGHTCRAFT
1
KLM
7
LONDON EXECUTIVE AVIATION
1
LUFTHANSA CITYLINE
1
LUXAIR
1
RYANAIR
78
SKYTAXI
1
THOMAS COOK
5
TIGER AIRWAYS
1
TRANSAVIA
7
TYROLEAN
3
VIRGIN NIGERIA
4
WIZZ AIR
1
TOTAL FOR 2008201

Someone who sticks out in that big list. Ryanair! Amazing airline! Whats all this talk about not getting a job at the end??

[Bealzebub]

No nobody is doing that for its own sake. Yes it is a very difficult career to embark on, but every single professional pilot that ever flew and certainly those that contribute to these threads, did just that.

The problem that resurfaces here time and time again (in fact almost every day,) is this "X-factor" perception. In other words lots of hopefulls who believe that ambition and dreams will overcome any obvious reality, to provide them with what they see as their birthright. This medium of internet forums allows for easy access to both good and bad advice and it provides a medium for those who would otherwise fall by the wayside to have a vocal outlet. In other words whilst not much has changed in reality, a lot has changed in virtual reality.

There are very few pilots who didn't nurture dreams of becoming a pilot one day and that is almost a given. The thing that enabled those who did, to succeed in achieveing their ambition, was the realities they both encountered and employed in the pursuit.

Advice is readily available here, and undoubtably some of it is very good. It is free and you should treat it as you see fit. Utilize it, ignore it, please yourself. At the end of the day you will do whatever you either want to do, or can afford to do. All the rose tinted proclamations and statements of intent are fairly meaningless. A lot of what is perceived on here as "negativity" is based on individuals own experiences, perceptions and opinions that would attempt to stop people from falling into bear traps, or otherwise wasting their time or money. Most of the time it is equally futile!

Flying is a very expensive commitment, and for the vast majority of people not to be taken lightly on that basis alone. Money spent unwisely or recklesslesly has the very real prospect of not only failing to satisfy any of your dreams or ambitions, but also ruining a significant proportion of your life. Many people have found this to their cost.

Personally I don't care what anybody decides. I don't care whether they bleat on about the marketing they were seduced by. I don't care about the perceived expense or unfairness of the training system. I don't care about dreams, or game plans or how young or old someone is. I don't care what they might or might not have to pay for in order to enter the next level of their gamble.

This is a career that demands ability and commitment. It has a high level of natural attrition. It is a difficult and often frustrating path to progression. Some people will eventually make it and many won't. Much of this advice is offered freely from people with a lot of experience in the industry. A lot of it has the potential to help you and hopefully save you future heartache. It is a resource full of fish bones that you will need to pick through carefully. Please yourself how you use the resource.

[SD.]

Times must be bad if the marketing department are trolling PPrune. Maybe you should pay like all the other companies that advertise on this site.

[BigGrecian]

So what if Oxford graduates get jobs with Ryanair.

Ryanair get far more pilots from modular schools - who have paid half what they would have done to go to Oxford!

[Bealzebub]

Does the dream contain a lot of these elements?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/O0uyIWOU024&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/O0uyIWOU024&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

A lot of the marketing certainly does. It is a great bit of fictional embellishment and good for TV advertising and other forms of marketing. The reality will be worlds away though.

[T7C]

Whats all this talk about not getting a job at the end??

You might want to be aware of the fact that a considerable amount of those "employed cadets" are sitting in hold pools (and some are sitting in them from the 2008 figures), which by NO means is a guarantee of a job.

Keep believing the numbers :D

[Flintstone]

"Lies, damned lies and statistics". Benjamin Disraeli 21 December 1804–19 April 1881.


T7C nailed it. You might want to ask how many of those in particular about the Netjets cadets. By publishing those numbers OAC have tried to make it look like they placed them in jobs, they didn't. NJ set up their cadet scheme and went looking for a training provider. The candidates paid for their own course and OAC took the money. OAC have said that as far as they are concerned all NJ cadets are deemed employed when they leave their premises which is blatantly untrue.

Take a guess how many of them have jobs. Zero.

By all means keep spouting this stuff. If you're a genuine wannabee then at best you're an incredible optimist (I'd be harshly honest and say gullible). At worst you're my first guess which is a troll.

[Locarno1]

Well some of it does contain those elements but i was thinking more like this. Another airline wi ould love to fly for ultimately:
YouTube - Girls in Red - virgin atlantic advert (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLkuBoB6GXo)
and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V8RIKVpL6wOh
and one more (sorry):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci1LD7NrLBc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci1LD7NrLBc&feature=related[/youtube)

[norton2005]

Locarno1, I did the integrated course at oxford, I can say I had a brilliant time, loved my time there. If you want any kind of information about life at OAA, training etc, PM me.

[ba038]

Much of what everyone has mentioned, more or less said is true.

Im 18 finished my A-levels this year and a clear wannabe......

Locarno1 - i was thinking just like you when i was 16 but now that im 18 i see things differently and have much more of a taste of what the real world out there is like.....

now for my personal advice i will say....yes oaa/ctc....they are all good...BUT .....it doesnt matter how you get your license its about are there jobs available in the time you graduate although thier are many hurdles to jump before that however that is the main question to ask yourself.


what im doing is going to a good uni .....studying what i enjoy for 3 years and then i will see how the industry is looking and take my steps from there......in your case you have plenty of time ....

I cant reiterate the points even more better.....

Do your A-levels .....


Get a degree.


Enjoy your young years and have fun.......:)

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

University = women!

Job done really. :)

[Scott Duch]

When i was 16 i was planning going into flight training, the industry was looking strong but then lean times started to appear so when my year at school were applying for university i followed suit and i'm off to uni in september for 4 years to study aeronautical engineering.

Get to uni, you'll be passing time to see where this particular industry is heading, completing a degree, become more mature, enjoy 'the best years of your life', earn more 'worldly knowledge'....

I see uni not just about the degree but all the other advantages that come with it, maturity being one of them.:)

[GearDownFlaps]

If this Guy isnt" Afraz in" a cunning disguise , then he is a troll if he isnt a troll he is a complete pilloch , not even a 16 year old would be this naive surely :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[quant]

Someone who sticks out in that big list. Ryanair! Amazing airline! Whats all this talk about not getting a job at the end??So after spending say somewhere in the region of £90K you want people to spend another £40k on a type rating with RA? If i was going to RA i certainly would not go to OAA.

Plus if the rumours are true the more experienced you get the less you fly :\ and if you have a loan then well you're stuffed! :oh:

[Captain-Random]

could be fabbe92

[Whirlygig]

Locarno, Why do you want to do an integrated course and waste your parents' money? You're doing your PPL now and you could get that before you finsih your A-levels.

Go to uni and complete your hour and experience building whilst getting a good degree. Finish uni, take a year full-time to get the ATPL theory and CPL/IR skill tests.

It's kinder on the pocket, you'll have a degree and a "frozen" ATPL by the time you're 22.

If you're serious, why don't you show this thread to your parents and see what they think?

Cheers

Whirls

[Aerouk]

Pay £90k+ on an integrated course to get a £24k job with Flybe... what a cracking deal... where do I sign up? NOT!

Oh... They do Ryanair... Fantastic... £90k+ and then another £30k for the TR along with pretty much no wages for 2 years, high risk of losing my job or being shipped about Europe... Once again, sounds like a cracking deal...

You would be better off spending £45k on modular and buying £45k worth of lottery tickets!

I love 16, 18 years olds... They think it's so easy to spend £80k all on the one go, lets see them going out and actually making that money.

[Locarno1]

They think it's so easy to spend £80k all on the one go, lets see them going out and actually making that money.

I have financial backing. I would love to talk to some real pilots who can tell me their route to becoming an airline pilot!

Are any of you real airline pilots with licenses and a job?

[Flintstone]

Bingo!

I knew you'd show yourself eventually. You're a troll. You've had your fun, the door's that way.




Advice for the future Tristan. Don't plaster your real name all over the internet, yours is like a rash. Profiles on Freeworldairways. com ("FreeWorld Airways is a virtual airline for X-Plane and Microsoft Flight Simulator"), VATSIM.net, bebo, facebook,Twitter............etc, etc. Shame really, some good people wasted their time giving out some good advice on this thread.

[SW1]

I would say that yes, you've had a few replies from REAL airline pilots and a few who are further down the line. You wanted advice and people are trying to give it.

This could be a wind up, but some of these kids nowadays have that attitude of "Dont tell me what to do" or "I'll make it dont you worry" or my favourite from a previous pillock which was something along the lines of "lets go to the interview on the same day and lets see who gets the job". Get some respect!!!

Rant over

[Bealzebub]

Even better, some of us are real airline pilots with real licences and parents of 16 year old kids!

You have had advice, it was free. Do with it what you want.

[redsnail]

I would love to talk to some real pilots who can tell me their route to becoming an airline pilot!

Are any of you real airline pilots with licenses and a job?

I would love to help real wannabes on their route to becoming a pilot. However, either you're a troll or your youthful exuberance is overriding your ability to listen to those who've been before.

Real airline pilot? Flinty, help us out here. What do you reckon?

2 ATPLs, 6500 hours +, captain etc... Have flown for airlines but not now. :E

[Flintstone]

That would qualify you reddo but......you're a girl :E

I think that young Tristan has us both beat on Microsoftsimtugyourselfoff though. He's flown that for hours and hours and hours. :rolleyes:

[betpump5]

End of the school year.

Expect many more of these type of posts over the next 6 weeks :sad:

[G SXTY]

Are any of you real airline pilots with licenses and a job?

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

You're having a laugh mate. Spend five minutes researching the posting histories of some of us, and you'll soon find out who the real commercial pilots are. It's the sort of research you're going to do a whole lot more of if you want to land an 'amazing job' etc etc. Bealzebub alone has given you some advice that he should really charge for. Redsnail isn't an 'airline' pilot alas, so she's obviously not worth listening to. Even worse, she's Australian.

I'm probably wasting my time here, but one thing completely missing from your posts is any consideration of what might happen if you can't find a job when you qualify. Have you thought about that one? Or is it a natural assumption that Oxford + silly amounts of cash = job? You won't want to hear this, so you probably won't listen, but it takes a lot more than money to make it as a commercial pilot. Commitment, determination, health, contacts and - above all - good timing (luck, if you prefer). Qualify at the wrong time, when no-one is recruiting, and it's pretty irrelevant where you trained - there are no jobs. That's when a degree would start to look like a sensible back-up plan. Injure yourself, get ill, find that your eyesight isn't up to scratch - you'll lose your medical, which means no job. Where's your 'plan B' then?

Assuming you're not trolling (and if you are, it's the best one I've seen for a while) then you really, really need to do a lot more homework before you're old enough to throw your parents' money at flying training. By then you might have paused to consider the implications of not finding a job, as well as the alternatives to Oxford, CTC, FTE et al (hint - you can get exactly the same qualification elsewhere for a little over half what they charge). For starters, I'd suggest you read and absorb this story of what happens when someone launches into training at the wrong time, although to be honest I think you're only going to listen to what you want to hear:

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/381829-advice-after-finishing-training.html

Yours, G-SXTY. airline pilot, 'amazing job', 'good airline', 'nice aircraft' (how did you know - have you flown it?).

[UAV689]

Give uni a bit more thought. Have you heard of university air squadrons? you can get paid to fly with the RAF and get some great tuition for free. While your at it why not consider the military? great job, great flying, great mates. Free license.

Also whilst your at univeristy there is nothing to stop you working at the weekends, living off your wages and banking those nice big low interest student loans, so when you graduate hey presto you could have

1. a lot of hours for free for your PPL courtesy of her majesty.
2. 12-15k in bank from uni loans, which come out of future salaries at a low rate.
3. degree - as a pilot you always need a back up plan, get a degree if your dream career doesnt happen.
4. Women at uni. :ok:
5. go modular - how will you feel when you could have 80k loan to repay and you cant, parents lose their house? have you seen how much you will earn initally with some airlines?
6. dont get any commerical loans what so ever to do flying training. Could seriously hurt your future, how will you get a house when you have to add 80k on top of your mortgage?

Good luck.

[WallyWumpus]

You cannot stop someone following their dream, and despite a lot of negativity on this thread, I am inclined to think that nobody is trying to stop the newbies from doing that, PROVIDING we, the PPrune family feel that they have all of the information they should.

That's the positive bit. The less positive bit, if the reader will indulge me, is the reaction I see from some quarters. This forum is, I believe, designed for those who are either already in the professional training sausage factory, or those aspiring to be. It is unreasonable to jump on someone who pitches up with their first post saying "I am thinking of spending 100k of the parents/banks money on an integrated course at OAA and then immediaitely getting a well paid career (not just job) with BA, where it is my ambition to eventually become the youngest ever training captain on the A380 and then chief pilot". This is nothing more than an expression of a naiive child-hood dream that requires a dose of relaity. I have always believed, and still do today, that there are a vast number of sources of information available to educate these people, and that this site is one of those. To all of the "Zombie Wannabe" army, as you are now being tagged, if you have always dreamed of flying, but have never really felt that you have gotten to grips wit the relaity of the path down which you are about to emabark, I for one would say keep posting here.

I went to OAA, and graduated in the Autumn of last year. I now fly for RYR. I took the old-fashioned route of saving up for the course, meaning I did not have to call on the bank, nor the bank of Mum and Dad. The advice you will get from this site matches my own experiences, and can be summed up as follows;

1. If you want to train to be a prof pilot (CPL/IR or MPL) do so with the understanding that you may, or may not get a job on graduation. This cannot be predicted at the start of your training, as with the passage of 18 months, things can chane dramatically.
2. If you do not get a job immediaitely, have a financial plan to manage your affairs for, say, 3 years after graduation. This plan should include money for surrency and skills renewels.
3. The vast majority of grauates will eventually find work, but "evenatually" can be measured in years and not months.
4. Do not bemoan the cost of training, and do not entertain others that do. We live in a free market economy, supply and demand driven, that works to our advantage in so many walks of life. Do not cherry pick individual bits of it to complain about, that behaviour is the same as an airport NIMBY (note I am attacking the behaviour and not the person here).
5. Do not bemoan the existence of pay-to-train schemes of self-financed TR schemes. We live in a free market...blah blah..... NIMBY..... you get the picture.
6. Ignore those of us that still seek to inflate our jobs beyond the true value we represent. I love flying, I really do, but I see my place in society for what it is. Piloting is not a profession, it is a technical role, and you will be a small cog in a big wheel. This view does not stem from my RYR experiences, it is more of a general view of the job.
7. Flight schools exist to make money, and rightly so. They are not providing a social service. See through the glassy marketing and especially any promises of jobs at the end of the course.
8. Listen to those who argue that you should get a degree first, even if all you want to do is fly. I sit on the fence on this one, as I can see both sides of the coin. Make up your own mind.

I think that is about it for my brain dump today.

Wally.

[redsnail]

Flinty, ooh got me there. But I'm married to a real airline pilot and his is bigger than yours. :E



aircraft that is.

[Locarno1]

Whats this troll thing you are talking about?? I dont know what its all about. Thanks for the advice guys it has actually been really helpful and i appreciate this. I will print all this off and show it to my parents to see if they can sum all this up and try and help me to have a clear path ahead of me.

Thanks,

Tris

[davelongdon]

I have done all the research and was attracted by all the big lights CTC and Oxford has to offer. So I decided to truly find out what it was all about.

I told CTC to knock their FlyBe assessment day to 100 euros and I'd hop over the Irish Pond to go through the PILAPT assessment and FNPT II Sim Check of which I didnt have a problem which. So they are like well we will contact you if you are successful to put you for a FlyBe Interview.

Shock Horror I was successful but before they put you for interview they sent me a form saying you wouldnt be guaranteed a job and that where would the 90000 euros for the course come from and when can it be ready for. So that was it.

Now i have budgeted to do my PPL, ATPL Theory with Bristol GS, Hour Building, Multi Engine, IR, CPL, MCC & Jet Orientation Course all in this country taking into account budgeting for failures for circa 40k and you end up with more flying time and experience in UK Airspace.

Just starting my ATPL Theory for Bristol Now and never looked back. by time you work out flights, accomdation at schools abroad theres no point, you dont get experience flying in clear skies with no air traffic in a desert.

Also heard rumours that first lot of FlyBe cadets have been offered jobs as cabin crew in mean time (spose its better than nothing). But how are you meant to justify 90k for a 25000 pound wage!!!!! Dont have a go if rumours arent true, as it has not been confirmed.

Hope its been of some use.

[G SXTY]

Also heard rumours that first lot of FlyBe cadets have been offered jobs as cabin crew

And that rumour is a fact.

[rogerg]

I remember when BA did the same to some excess "hamsters". Most ended up in command and a lot better for knowing how the other half lives.

[Captain-Random]

I don't think he's a troll, just another misguided wannabe who makes the rest of us wannabes look just as bad.

He's a real person alright.. A quick search of his name on google proves that....


But i think he's looking for this site ...

http://i27.tinypic.com/2iu40zs.jpg

[GearDownFlaps]

Then I stand by my statement , if he aint a troll then he is a very naive pilloch

[disco87]

Is that a real site?

[Captain-Random]

Don't know... Found it on another thread :}

[Locarno1]

Then I stand by my statement , if he aint a troll then he is a very naive pilloch


You think of me that way then do you?? Thats a very nice way of welcoming a new member to these 'sometimes' pointless forums

[Flintstone]

Is that a real site?

Oh FFS :ugh:



You think of me that way then do you?? Thats a very nice way of welcoming a new member to these 'sometimes' pointless forums

Brought it on yourself with........

Are any of you real airline pilots with licenses and a job?


Try winding your neck in, not acting like a spoiled brat and.........what am I saying? You're a troll :E



reddo. As you are well aware madame our types have more quality. His might be bigger but it's orange, probably infected ;)

[Artie Fufkin]

Really nice to see pprune shining at its best;

Schoolkid enters the forum and asks some questions and gets bullied, teased and insulted for his efforts. What some would call being a "naive pillock", others would call youthful optimism. Its also nice to know that you all were all really worldly and mature at 16.

Nice one boys

[scott5988]

Lacarno1,

before you listen to the majority of the assholes and bull**** on this forrum, I will send you a PM with a link to Oxfords website about this forrum. I was almost put off flying by some of the nobs on here, but I'm starting my training in October @ BCFT. Also, they think they know every thing, and foook me I would like to have a look into there chrystal ball, but they don't. Just to proove a point, do they know that one of the worlds leading banks have just approved
"aviation loans" for students? and that a majour airline are building there own flight school? Don't think so!

Good luck pal! Go for it!

P.S sorry if s.p.a.g ain't too good as this was written on a mobile phone!


Cheers

S

[Scratch Pad]

Artie, scott...others.

He's tekkin' the pish. Logs in, first post in the wannabee forum where so many are struggling "I've got £90,000 from mater and pater"........"Are any of you real pilots?"......... claims not to know what a troll is but is internet savvy as any search of his name reveals. Do you need it writ any larger? In colours maybe?

This forum is a great place for those who really need it but there are always one or two who enjoy a wind-up. Tristan is one of the latter. As for those of you chucking rocks at the "assholes" and naysayers ask yourselves this. If you were a genuine wannabee who would you look to for advice? The ones posting who either have yet to start training, are in training or barely finished and without jobs or those with years or decades in the industry who have already witnessed the boom/bust cycle at least once?

I was better when I was 16 too. I knew everything then :rolleyes:

[skyhighbird]

and that a majour airline are building there own flight school

Scott5988

You're (Your) speling (spelling) and grammer (grammar) is atrochous (atrocious). and you're calling us asswholes(can't be bothered)?

Don't be taken in. Atfaz has broken up for the summer holidays and has found a new log-in name.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

I'm going to raise a point I bet most people don't think about - poor quality CPL training.

Ask what happened when they had different CAA examiners from their in house ones come and examine the students? Everyone failed

BIG GRECIAN!!!
NOT TRUE!
Get your facts right first, First time pass in cpl and IR both with non in house CAA examiners! Finished April this year and many are in the same boat as me with first time passes.
SOUR GRAPES ANY ONE??

[Whirlygig]

And your's isn't much better Skyhighbird - at least Scott apologised by explaining he was writing it via mobile phone. :rolleyes:

a link to Oxfords website about this forrumIn the words of Mandy Rice-Davies (look it up), "They would say that, wouldn't they?"

Oxford's own website and forum is hardly likely to give impartial advice, unlike here.

A few of us know each other personally but, on the whole, we are complete strangers who are offering our advice and help for nothing. It's no skin off my nose ultimately what the OP decides to do but I do believe in helping others in avaition if I can.

I don't want Locarno to spend his parents' money with little hope of return and the advice I have given (which he's chosen to ignore but I hope Mummy and Daddy pick up on it) of Uni/UAS/modular is sincere.

If Locarno wants to be treated as a mature 16 year old (and some are), then he needs to behave like one.

Cheers

Whirls

[scott5988]

See, point proven!

Get a life skyhighbird

****

[skyhighbird]

Whirlygig/scott

You two are scaring me.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote that. Please tell me you aren't serious!:ugh:

[skyhighbird]

Tristan,

I saw one of your posts on a simmers website having googled your name:

Dear Air Simmer Team,

My name is Tristan Marchent, and am, 16 years old. I am deciding to start a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 project for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 and Possible FSX. This would include designing the model and gauges and everything else at high quality and realism. This would however be my first ever MSFS design project and I hope it does go ahead. However, to get me started and know what im doing, could you possibly give me some advice on any good software that would help me design and produce this wonderful aircraft for MSFS. And also could you possibly give me any tips that would help me along the way.

Thankyou very much and I look forward to your reply,

Tristan Marchent

G-SXTY is a dash-8 pilot I believe. I'm sure he would be very happy to test the finished product for reality, or give you tips on what you could improve.

[Whirlygig]

That was an hysterically funny joke; I think my sides have just split. And how uproarious it is that you have taken the time and trouble to google the boy's real name.

Cheers

Whirls




PS - if you're going to make "tongue in cheek" comments, you might find the use of smilies will aid other's comprehension of your unique humour :p

[skyhighbird]

It was hardly time or trouble.

Anyway, I've pointed him in the direction of G-SXTY so there is at least one benefit of him coming on pprune and my pasting his message from the sim forum.

Not sure G-SXTY will see it the same way though :)

[Re-Heat]

Locarno1

Go back to your original post and redact your name; redact it further from every other forum on which you post. Future employers will Google your name as part of their background checks. All and every comment you have made on the internet is presntly available to them.

I am more than a little worried that manmy other posters think it acceptable to pillory a 16-year old who has asked a few questions. Yes, he might have his head in the clouds at the moment, and yes, many real piltos consider flight simmers to be wasting their lives, but the responses on here are bordering on unacceptable in civilised debate.

Disagreement with an opinion should be asserted by counter-opinions and appropriate facts. Not name-calling.

Yes, he might have to grow up, but he is more likely to turn his back on PPRuNe rather than listen if you continue down that road.

[G SXTY]

The Q400's a doddle. Just keep one hand on the stick, one on the power levers and another on the rudder trimmer. And say "ALT SEL" every thirty seconds.

All you need to know. :ok:

P.S. For a realistic 'full motion' effect, practice the above while your mates push you round in a shopping trolley.

[LH2]

keep one hand on the stick, one on the power levers and another on the rudder trimmer

May I ask which part of England you come from? :E

[JohnRayner]

keep one hand on the stick, one on the power levers and another on the rudder trimmer

Well, he's a big lad (if you know what I mean ;)). Very skilled, too...
:}:}:}:}:}

[GearDownFlaps]

Scott , this guy is a troll pure and simple and or a pilloch , if you cant see that from his ridiculous posts then you are also clearly in the wrong place .
I went to BCFT many moons ago , I may not know everything as you say , but as far as this industry goes , I know a lot more than you , but hey Im just a working commercial pilot , maybe Im wrong maybe you do know more , after six months at BCFT you will understand what those here with relevan experience are talking about .:ugh:

[minaldabasia]

My goal in life is to become a pilot aswell, but i went to university and did aerospace systems engineering. some along the lines that will actuall help you in your ATPL ( helps me alot). u never know when somthing bad mite happen and that your medical is no longer valid and can not be. a degree in this place will help you carry on earning. you will have a much better time at university that at flying school at that age.
the Mod root is the best in current times you can pull out when you want and not loose large amounts of money.

[daraireland]

Right 78 students employed in 2009 so far...

How many students finished in 2009 so far? Come on, someone must know.

Are numbers dropping for the coming months classes?

No agenda here, just want numbers,


Cheers

DI

[Flintstone]

Right 78 students employed in 2009 so far...

Don'tcha love it when people post without reading the whole thread? ;) daraireland, post #31. None of the Netjets cadets have jobs, you're falling for Oxford's sales spiel.

[scott5988]

if you cant see that from his ridiculous posts then you are also clearly in the wrong place


yeah fair enough looks like he may be dreaming. BUT! he is 16, probably exstatic that he may have the chance to oneday, be a pilot! I just don't think name calling is very......nice! There are other ways to talk to people. I just know how it feel to know you could finally have your dream, common you must know what thats like too! Finally, you do know more then me, your a bloody working pilot and im tryin to learn from everyone i can.


cheers :ok:


S

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Absolutley Scott. Then why put your post #65 with a title "A**holes"?

Not having a go, but as Ive said a few times, we wouldn't speak to each other like that in the real world, or I hope not, but why on forums??? And there are a few of us on here who are current airline pilots, and trying to pass on the benefit of our experience, and the pitfalls too as we've all been there, to those following, as in our previous posts regarding your own position (which I wasn't trying to knock, just offer my opinion on your situation).

True, there are some posters who could express themselves better admittedly, however the general case is the regulars have no axe to grind genuinely, and when young guys ask for advice, and their inexperience or exhuberance takes them to a place which winds people up, well, ok, you will get some of the inevitable replies I'm afraid.

[Artie Fufkin]

Tristan, forgive me for not writing a longer reply earlier, but I had to go to work. I still feel amazed at some of the responses you have received. They made me feel increasingly angry all day. By way of a (hopefully) sensible reply:

If you are lucky enough to have family who can back you financially then I would argue that you should consider going to university, then do your flight training. By the time you have finished your A Levels and your degree, the current downturn in jobs will almost certainly be over and you will be better placed to get a good return on the investment of flight training – something that will arguably be an awful lot more difficult in the current economic climate.

No one can tell you which is better (CTC vs OAA) as no one has done fATPLs at both and can compare. For my part I did my fATPL at Oxford and my airline sent me to CTC for the type rating. I was far more impressed with the training at Oxford, but (far more importantly) up until recently CTC had the better employment record. At the moment both have equally poor employment statistics and that looks like it is set to continue for a good while yet.

So, in a nutshell, if you can afford it, sit out the current downturn at Uni. At the end of it you will have had the best years of your life and the current downturn in jobs will almost certainly be over. Graduate from university at 21, finish flight training at 22, that leaves 43 years to enjoy the flight deck.

[RYR_and_proud]

daraireland
Right 78 students employed in 2009 so far...

How many students finished in 2009 so far? Come on, someone must know.

Are numbers dropping for the coming months classes?

No agenda here, just want numbers,

As you wish here is my estimation of what the OAA numbers are so far this year! Basically every month one course finishes, the course average, I think, is about 20 students. So if we take to the end of this month thats 7 courses or 140 grads, however there was a double course that finished around Jan/Feb time so we can add another 20 to this, thats 160 grads give or take a few that have finished this year!

Out of this 160, the OAA website states that 67 "OAA graduates have gained First Officer employment so far during 2009." However when you break this down and look at it closely the true figures are totally different!

So lets examine- AFAIK the 2 Aer Lingus grads are both in the hold pool and by the looks of things that won't be touched anytime soon, definitely not in '09 anyway. I know the guy that has gone to Amsterdam Airlines and he's not really an OAA grad considering all he did was the six months ground school and finished there in early '08! The grad who went to Fly Niki is on one of those pay to fly schemes so that can hardly be considered as actual employment, and he'll probably be kicked out on his backside in a few months when he has flown the hours he paid for!

Flinstone what you said You might want to ask how many of those in particular about the Netjets cadets. By publishing those numbers OAC have tried to make it look like they placed them in jobs, they didn't. NJ set up their cadet scheme and went looking for a training provider. The candidates paid for their own course and OAC took the money. OAC have said that as far as they are concerned all NJ cadets are deemed employed when they leave their premises which is blatantly untrue.

Take a guess how many of them have jobs. Zero.
in relation to the Netjets cadets is partially untrue. 7 of the 15 guys that graduated have been offered employment and are currently flying the line, all these guys and gal finished in January! However the other 8 have not been so lucky and have not yet got start dates and probably won't either!

And then we come to the Ryanair cadets, 38 grads have been offered employment in '09, however the actual amount that will start this year will definitely be a lot less. Also in this 38 there are at least 10 grads who would not actually be considered in my 160 total estimation above as they all finished before X-mas but only gained employment in '09. Anyway out of the 38 I think there are only around 16-17 who have actually received contracts with RYR and are defintely started/ starting type rating! The rest either have provisional TR dates or are waiting for them. As has been said on another thread the remaining TR's of '09 are being pushed back to Spring of next year with the exception of the October course(but this will almost definitely be cut too). So when you look at it there are actually only 6/7 '09 grads that have been employed by RYR this year not the 38 quoted on the OAA website!!

So that leaves us with the Thomas Cook grads and the other sprinkling of guys. In fairness the 6 TC grads have been taken on and are currently flying the line so thats true, however I heard they may be grounded for the winter months! And the others- 1 at Air Southwest, 1 at KLM, 1 at Blink and another at Kenya Airways, not sure if these are true but lets presume they are.

With all of the above taken into account these are the numbers you are looking for dara,
Total Graduates 2009= Around 160
Total Graduates employed in 2009= Around 24
Percentage Graduates employed in 2009= 15%

Hope this was of some help to you dara, of course I can't say these figures are 100% accurate but I would definitely say there at least 95%

Regards,

[Flintstone]

....in relation to the Netjets cadets is partially untrue.

Off topic but.....

You need to take into account what's happening at NJ at the moment. The threat of 300 layoffs unless enough people bid for voluntary redundancy, job share, leave of absence. The deadline for bids passed last week and they're now getting down to the nitty-gritty of who goes and who stays. I don't know how many cadets bid for VR or a jobshare (year on, year off on 60% pay) but I don't think you can count on all seven being there.

Back on topic though it speaks volumes about Oxford's manipulation of the figures (as you've demonstrated) that they claim those as being gainfully employed when they know damn well they are nothing of the sort.

[skyhighbird]

it speaks volumes about Oxford's manipulation of the figures (as you've demonstrated) that they claim those as being gainfully employed when they know damn well they are nothing of the sort.

I think it is important to mention though that none of us with at least half a brain cell are actually having a go at the marketing department of OAA. They are a business - simple as that, and they are doing their job. Any company (and governments!!!) manipulate figures to make them look good. That is FACT.

What gets up the noses of Pprune regulars are the new weekly posts that arrive with guys asking about CTC, OAA etc. The old ppruners impart their knowledge regarding "don't believe the hype" yet the replies they receive are in defence of the FTO. The newbie will only be satisfied with at least one response telling him/her want they want to hear - and then they are prepared to ignore the 100 posts to the contrary.

[turbine100]

Hi

Had a friend who attended oxford, he told me it was a lot of money for their name above the letter head.

The ground school was good. Flying in the U.S was really bad. Instructors, scheduling and maintainance all a mess.

I would suggest you take the modular route, save the money you would spend / borrow at Oxford for the moment.

Perhaps jump in the car and arrange appointments with a number of schools and consider the ground school while holding down a job. Then when things slowly improve move forward.

If you took this route and had to pay for a type rating in the future you would not owe the same amount of money and would have hopefully reduced your risks etc.

[ollywood]

Alrite guys,
Yes, i may also be another optimistic 17 year old looking to go to oxford, but i just wanted to say something about this topic.
Everyone is talking about going to university to get a degree before doing any training, and i presume the reason for this is to have a backup plan and a chance of employment if it all goes wrong, however OAA is now also offering a degree course in airline operations and mangement (or something like that) for no extra cost, surely this is a much better alternative that doing a degree beforehand, as you will come out of oxford with all the required licenses and a degree, which surely means that you are more employable to airlines, and you also have some sort of qualification in order to find another job if you cannot secure one with an airline soon after?
And what about if university is not for you? :confused:
Cheers

[DutchBird-757]

Different times and different opinions but I was really pleased with Oxford. You'll get the same stories about every FTO. My opinion, great quality instructors, good study material and they know what they are doing. Aircraft are getting a bit old and issues with weather in the UK that can create problems with your IR. USA flying was awsome.

Oxford Career Center also got me my job within 8 weeks after finishing. But those were the good times. Especially in these bad times you'll need connections and reputation. And that's what Oxford provides.

[Adios]

RYR and Proud,

I don't think you quite have the facts straight. Oxford put the NetJets cadets on the list when they started their type rating and they became NetJets employees a few weeks before that when they attended Indoc at Lisbon and went on the payroll. If you want to drop the NetJets cadets out of the employed column, then you have to drop them out of the 160 estimate too. There were 48 per year, so drop your 20 down to 16 per course. Your post simply proves that people on both sides of an argument can abuse statistics. I follow one of the Aer Lingus guys on Facebook and he's definitely flying A320s out of Gatwick. I have no reason to doubt the other one is too.

Oxford doesn't claim the ones placed this year also graduated this year nor do they claim that they placed them all. The course is more than a year long, so you can't even use yearly intake meaningfully even if you know what it is. The report states "The great majority of these were as a direct result of placement facilitation through OAA; but some were also achieved through graduate efforts themselves."

Considering Oxford ran the selection and provided the training for the NetJets Cadets, I'd say they fall squarely into the above disclaimer of 'placement facilitation' but regardless where you want to list or delist them them, at least be consistent on how you do it on both sides of the percentage formula.

Flintstone isn't quite right saying the NetJets cadets don't have jobs. 15 of them are type rated and they had the same five choices all other NetJets pilots were offered. Who knows what choice they made, but given that low hour pilots are plentiful and jobs aren't, I'll bet they opted for job sharing since it keeps them inside NetJets. They could still be let go if voluntary takeup of the five options didn't meet the reduction and cost saving targets, but it's a bit of a fudge to assume they're all gone. Those still at OAA had two options, both pretty generous considering NetJets contractually owed them nothing. One option was voluntary severance pay of 10 months NJE FO base salary. The other was up to three years in the hold pool on reduced salary with a 90 day call back and they can work anywhere they can find a job in any industry while holding. If Oxford adds more to the NetJets 15 on the list, then we'll know they're fudging the facts, but right now you two are fudging.

It would be nice if Oxford gave more data, but the only meaningful statistic would be average time to the 1st job or percent employed at post training increments of say 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21 and 24 months. Average time to the first job can't be given until 100% are employed though and that will never happen since some finish every month, so quarterly benchmarks would probably be the most useful data.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to think an FTO should subtract out any listed graduates if they lose the job. Is there anyone here except maybe Fabbe, Afraz and Tristan who still don't understand it's a cyclical industry? Even these three have been rather heavy handedly disabused of that delusion.

As for the original question, well Artie has undertaken training at both FTOs and has summed it up pretty well, neither is at an advantage for job placement right now, but both are effective when jobs are to be had. The bottom line then is not so much where to train, as it is when to train and that's the exact same conclusion of hundreds of other PPrune threads.

[Adios]

Ollywood,

An airline industry degree in a cyclical downturn is worth less than a frozen ATPL. BA's first move in the downturn was to make about 1\3 of their management redundant last year. Managers and support staff are usually the first to go when head count needs to be reduced and the highest paid managers are often sent packing first. The degree might be nice for any other number of reasons, but not as a backup plan.

Two types of employees are safest in a recession up to a point; revenue generators and producers.

The marketing and ticket sales teams are the first type and the flight crew and 30 or so other assorted positions that it takes to get and keep a plane in the air are the other type. The sales team in the case of many airlines today are often a bank of web servers and the IT team that run them. Very few managers fit into either category. When the revenue generators (sales) drop in performance, even they and the producers start to get cut and that is where BA are today.

[Aerouk]

Ollywood,

Why the hell would anyone want a management job in an airline? So you can go work with the likes of Michael O'Leary?

Don't put all your eggs in the one basket; recruiters are looking for people who have experience and skills from different backgrounds and industries.

Oh... The degree isn't free - you just paid them 90k.

[RYR_and_proud]

Adios

Looks like I'm not the only one that hasn't got my facts quite right! There is a not a word of a lie in what I said about the Netjets cadets this year, only 7 of the 15 NJE cadets that have graduated since Jan'09 have been offered employment. I don't know why but for some reason, the other 8 cadets, who all graduated from OAA and started working for NJE before X-Mas have been added to the 2009 statistics! It is for this reason that I did not take them into my rough estimations above! Also I never once mentioned dropping the NJE cadets from the employed column so I don't know where you've got that from!

In relation to the Aer Lingus guys, are you sure the guy your following got the job this year and not last! As I know for a fact that one of the guys in the pool is currently working at OAA to pass time, so I see no reason other than yours to presume that the other guy is still in the pool!

To quote you
Oxford doesn't claim the ones placed this year also graduated this year
I agree, and this is exactly what I took into account with my calculations! You seemed to have missed what I was trying to do, but the whole point of my post was to calculate the numbers for the 2009 Oxford Graduatesmeaning I'm only taking into account students that have graduated from OAA since January 2009 none before! Hence the reason why I deducted the 8 NJE cadets as they graduated in 2008 and the same story with the 10 RYR cadets!!!

I think it's a bit of a stretch to think an FTO should subtract out any listed graduates if they lose the job. Also I never said this but I do agree with you! However if you are talking about the Fly Niki guy then really he shouldn't have been on those stats in the first place, he hasn't actually got a job just paid for a TR and however many hundred hours, definitely cannot be considered as employment!

Hope I've cleared things up a bit better now!

Regards,

[Re-Heat]

An airline industry degree in a cyclical downturn is worth less than a frozen ATPL. BA's first move in the downturn was to make about 1\3 of their management redundant last year. Managers and support staff are usually the first to go when head count needs to be reduced and the highest paid managers are often sent packing first. The degree might be nice for any other number of reasons, but not as a backup plan.
Really...so that is why BA expanded their graduate management scheme this year then...

[Adios]

RYR and Proud,

Forgive me for mixing you up with someone else. It was a quote in your post that contained the misinformation about the NetJets Cadets saying none have jobs and indeed you were refuting it. I read to the last post before responding and got the sources of what I was refuting wrong because I didn't refer back to the thread when writing. Also, I didn't accuse anyone of lying. I think some items are being reported as facts, which are not facts, but the authors don't necessarily know their info is wrong.

I stand by what I said about Aer Lingus taking two though. The chap working for OAA is number three, but he's "unofficially" in a hold pool, meaning he's had no formal letter or offer from the airline, just a tip that they want him if they put more A320s into Gatwick. CW of AP273 and one other are definitely type rated and flying A320s out of Gatwick with Aer Lingus. His interview was last year after Christmas, but the job offer came in 2009.

[Adios]

Re-heat,

Are you disputing that BA chopped management head count last year in a bid to save £50 Million?

I really don't think my advice is very different from what dozens of others on PPrune have written in recent years. Plan B is best if it's in an unrelated industry.

BA's graduate trainee programme is just that, for recent graduates who will work hard for a pittance in exchange for the first rung on the ladder. I doubt that they would be very interested in taking a pilot into it 5-10 years after he/she got a degree then became a pilot and was later made redundant, then spending money training him/her for a management job only to see him bugger off for the flight deck as soon as he is able to. I know low hour pilots who can't get a job in their pre flight school line of work because the interviewers know they will leave as soon as pilot jobs are available again. I doubt BA feel any different about it.

[archiemo]

Hi I would not think twice and go to CTC. Oxford have old areoplanes without glass cockpits which makes the IRT more difficult. You will have a much better chance of a job with Easy jet through CTC.

I know many students from Oxford who had a dreadful time there. Theywere delayed months in completeing the course and this was at their costs. There was also a total lack of flying continuity during the IR stage.
On the other hand two friends who went through CTC are both working with Easyjet. Their CTC course went to plan and the diamond twin star was a joy to fly.

You should also look into the academy at Jerez which has the benefit of good weather.

Oxford would beclose to bottom of my list for sure. their PR is good but their delivery does not match the PR

Archie

[PPRuNeUser0165]

I am afraid I do not agree archiemo. Oxford is a very good school. Any delays you get are through weather and unless CTC is now GOD you will struggle not to have weather delays!
As for the old aircraft, yes they are old and yes they are more difficult for the IR as yes they don’t have glass cockpits....... So who may be the better pilot???
I am not going to say that everything is perfect at oxford because its not, however the majority of it is exceptional and the things that aren’t are getting sorted.
The aircraft are old, but are very well maintained and only once during the IR phase did an AC go tech, and that was for a flat tyre that was repaired whilst I stood on the ramp. In phoenix I went thru the course with no technical problems and finished 3 weeks early!
I graduated April this year, a month late, why? Because of the 3 weeks of snow storms we encountered at the start of this year, again nothing to do with Oxford, in fact after the Rwy was shut for the 4th day, they requested the airport get outside contractors in to clear the snow so we can fly! They are always happy to go out of their way to help you in any way they can.
If you are serious about flying and going to Oxford PM me ask any questions you like. If you don’t believe me I can put you in contact with a lot more people like myself.
Happy Landings every one
:ok:

[G SXTY]

The school 'A' versus school 'B' debate is all good fun but rather misses the fundamental point - which is that there are currently no jobs for newly qualified pilots. And, given the state of the industry, it's likely to be several years before the situation improves significantly.

In other words, it matters not whether you qualify at Oxford, CTC, FTE or Much-Piddling-In-The-Marsh Flying Club, it's extremely unlikely you'll find a job at the end of it. Note that the schools' marketing people may tell you otherwise - funny that . . .

[AQVILA]

If you have a dream you have to follow it! If you want it enough you'll get it eventually if you put the effort in! If you go uni, theres always the possibility you'll forget about your dream. Thats what kinda happened to me when i joined the army. If its really what you want and your determined enough then you wont be happy until you're on the road to getting there! Go for it! good luck!

[Aerouk]

If you go uni, theres always the possibility you'll forget about your dream. Thats what kinda happened to me when i joined the army.

Don't think you can blame Uni for that mate, it sounds like you didn't want it enough.

[skyhigh1234]

Locarno1 (http://www.pprune.org/members/305958-locarno1) I can understand that you want to choose the best school for training, whether to go Integrated or Modular and this is an obviously a personal choice and one only you can make. It is great that you have the financial backing of your parents, hell I needed their help for security and would never have been able to afford to do all this training if it wasn't for them. Take everything obviously on here with the pinch of salt, don't listen to that is said and make your own decision.

I myself decided to go Integrated, starting in 2007 with Oxford, at the time, industry ok, continual expansion, optimistic. Count the months and you will see when I graduated! The dark times we are in now. Remember as well, you are only sixteen and you will change a hell of a lot. I have seen some guys coming fresh out of big schools at a young age with no grip on reality whatsoever. I have also seen many mature 20 year olds who know the score.

I personally didn't go to uni, I don't regret it in any way, maybe missed out on the social side but hey, who cares! The degree Oxford offers is not of great relevance to the course and to my experience has been poorly managed! Maybe that has all changed.............
OAA - very much enjoyed the experience, good instruction in both the states and during the IR and MCC/JOC. Loved the Seneca (give a s**t its not a glass cockpit) -'oh my god I have to change the RPM myself'- Had one of the best five months in Phoenix (flying, women, pool, sun, Vegas, what else do you want), Good groundschool instruction! I finshed on time and had no real problems along the way so I really have nothing bad to say about it. I am glad that I got into the game at a later age too as I feel more experienced in a demanding industry.
There is no point in arguing over the ins and outs of schools, its a risk but go take it! I'm £110000 in the red now due to RYR Type Rating but its good man :ok:

Go to Uni if you like, add another 15-20K ontop of OAA, which is now a cool 71000. Maybe you will get BA? Maybe you will get RYR, who knows what the total outcome will be? You still have a few years to decide and as we know this industry changes quickly so don't stress too much.
Get your name of here for one :=
Eye on the prize
Be a cool dude

[thetimesreader84]

I'm £110000 in the red now due to RYR Type Rating but its good man

£110,000 should buy you an Audi R8, Aston Martin DB9, or 10 Fiat 500 Sports.

It might, subject to an Engineers inspection, buy you 2 Stampe biplanes

It could by you a 2 bedroom semi detached house in Birmingham

It may, depending on spec, buy you a 30' yacht.

It will buy you a "frozen" ATPL, 737 type rating, and a job with Ryanair. Possibly.

I'm not saying not to do it (although I probably wouldnt at the moment if I were you); I'm just saying £110,000 is not just a number. It's an awful lot of money.

[Cpt. Sunshine]

Locarno1,

I am not writing this from any level of understanding and before you read what I have written I want to say that what is expressed is my opinion of what has been discussed in this thread.

Firstly, I think that you have offended allot of people by mentioning that the bank of mummy and daddy will finance you through to fATPL. There are pilots on here with huge loans who did their qualifications with no sort of banking from parents/family and I think that these people (rightly) don't like seeing someone having it so easy. I'm 13 and want to get started on my PPL at 14, but I'm having to work hard at home (cooking, cleaning and trying very very hard at school) to even start to get my parents to think about helping me through this license. I know full well that anything like this is a financial strain on them and I have made it clear that I will think no less of them if they decide not to pay me through the PPL. This was the reason I too was offended by your post- perhaps I am jealous but I hate seeing people flash the cash with such naivety. (If I'm given £10 to go shopping, I buy the cheapest brands and save what I can to put towards flying- seeing people's parents write out cheques with no thought is hurtful to say the least).

Furthermore, allot of the supposed negativity construed by other posters in this thread is probably just trying to get you thinking straight. These people did it the good old way (saving and modular) and are the better (in my opinion) for it. I'm not nearly arrogant enough to say as fact to have any level of understanding as to why what was said was but I believe that these guys are out to help you. I think they do not want to see another newbie signed off to the line in heavy debt. Nor, I belive, do they want your parents £100k+ poorer for funding their son through a course that could be done much cheaper.

Also, I think allot of people were upset and hurt by how easy you thought it is to become a pilot. I'm probably no better than you but remember there are people unemployed and financially scarred from their aviation experiences. Try and show consideration for these people in your posts and I think you'll find that the responses come much politer. (look at my thread 'PPL Training as a Teenager' in the private flying forum)

Locarno1 try the EPST online aptitude test too.

Before I sign off, I do not want anybody thinking I am looking down at Locarno1 or any other posters. I am no better than Locarno1 at dreaming but I thank every poster in this thread for writing what they did as all of it (except accusing him of being a troll-just childish surely) was intended to help (if a little backhandedly in some cases) in some way.

[Adios]

Captain Sunshine,

Your post shows a lot of maturity and I find myself wondering if you are really 13. I'm not calling a troll alert mind you, but with the level of maturity and assertiveness you've just shown, I think you'll be welcome on a multi-crew flight deck once you get the required bits of paper. Good luck and Godspeed with your training.

[Togodumnus]

Do the bank of mummy and daddy a favour.

Join the RAF, by the sounds of it you'll fit right in. If you have the brain power you can work on some beautiful fast jets, if not choppers or Hercules for a few years and then jump ship to the airlines. You'll save your parents the best part of 100,000ukp, get the best training and get to see a lot of the world. You might have to bomb parts of it but for a 100k there isn't much I won't do!!!!!

I have just finished modular, CAA have my paperwork as we speak, crap timing but then thats life. My little blue licence cost me 35k, with 250+ hours total time (passed CPL/IR minimum times), if you go to OAA that EXACT same licence will cost you 80K minimum.

In my groundschool class of 5 guys only little old me is not working on a 737!

[pilotbear]

total £35K? not possible.

[Togodumnus]

ppl 3k
hours approx 9k
groundschool 3.5k
cpl 4k
ME 2k
ir 12k

Sundries 3k

Ok call it 37k

[Andy Withercock]

Don't you just love the way the figures get distorted to try to make the point that you pay more for integrated training!! All the Mod guys vastly underestimating their costs and forgetting the include the price of an MCC and JOC, whilst quoting between £80-100k for Oxford...actual price £66000 plus £5000 for tests and CAA fees equals £71000.

There is also a cost benefit in getting through the training quickly and earning a salary sooner (granted, this doesn't apply right now with the dearth of jobs currently available).

[v6g]

I'll see your £37k and raise you £14k ... in Canada - not JAA but not that that will do you any good in the near future anyway.

PPL: $8000
PPL after tax credit and training deduction: $6160

Hour building, night, groundschool & commercial: $20,000
After tax credit and training deduction: $17,700

Multi-IFR: Effectively paid by the government after some lucky timing and the usual tax deductions.

Grand total in CAD: $23860

Grand total in UK pounds: £14,000

[thai_jedi]

Well if going straight to an aviation academy isn't any good where would you go to get both a CPL and a University degree. For me, money isn't an issue, so right now I'm going into airline management at University of New South Wales in Australia then going to OAA.

Any other suggestions?

[fabbe92]

It sure isn´t fabbe92 that started this topic! I was just like this guy 6 months ago, even worze! But I have changed idea completley now. Completing my PPL now and it´s fantastic. Later on I will enroll in a good modular school wich has good quality for the money, in every aspect.

Look at OAA for example, planes that aren´t up to industry standard and I have heard that they have had problems with schedules and different questions regardig money and prices for flight training. I have understood that they have the biggest name and the best reputation in the industry. But you must look at the quality of the training. That some guys get´s jobs with BA isn´t important, the important thing is that you get good quality and support and that you become a good pilot.

[Alexsky]

I really don't see lots of benefits of going to USA/Canada. Well, better climate. But not really prices.

In Europe there are economical possibilities to get trained and become the ATPL.
From 0 to PPL - 6000Eur and from PPL to ATPL (200hrs, MEP, CPL, IR) - 21000Eur.

By the way, Avioservice (Latvian flight school), whose prices I mention they work with OAA and students get the OAA papers.
If I can share my personal experience about OAA - they do a really good job. Not a bad choice at all.

Good luck!

[Owu96]

Hi, I'm considering going to OAA next yr and I would like to know how difficult is it getting into the school, and what qualifications did you have when you started your ATPL . And what are the job prospects after

[TheMellowLife]

I agree with Geebs, everyone I have spoken to fresh out of uni has said it was the best few years they've ever had. They've made friends for life and created new opportunites for themselves. I'm definitely going to university and perhaps pursue the pilot dream a few years down the road as a career change.

Jovan, A levels or the equivelent are a must! May I suggest you use your initiative and search through these threads to find the answers to your questions because they have been covered many a time. At this time and the near future employment prospects are not good!

[redsnail]

Oxford University has nothing to do with OAA.
Only similarity is the name.

[Charleston]

Would like more recent updates on job prospects and quality of training from OAA, as now it is owned by CAE and the aviation sector is expanding, creating more jobs. Anyone out there a recent graduate with experience in job hunting?

[gpiper]

Dear scott5988

Sorry for PM you, but I noticed that you did you training at BCFT. What do you think about them, did you find a job afterwards? would you recommend them over other school??

regards
GPiper