Advice after finishing training - what do I do next (Merged)

[dudeatstarwars]

I am currently doing my First Officer training with Cabair, and hope to finish at the end of the year. When I have completed it, what is the best way to make myself employable in this credit crunch market? Reading the threads it sounds hopeless.
Do I need to build up extra hours before aplying for vacancies, and spend out more money? what is the best way is to try and get a interview for a job, or do I resign myself to having a huge dept and never get a job as a First Officer? I do not mind living abroad or flying frieght?

please advise. I will be just over 20 1/2 years old when I finish.

[GBB]

Find ANY job (aviation sector would be a plus) right after the training, keep thing current, send out applications, and pray for better times to comeback soon.
Sorry but you just have to wait...

[Brian Fantana]

I suggest you read a few more posts on this forum.There are plenty of questions and answers like the one you have just asked. Surely you can then figure out what to do next.
Whatever you decide good luck with it, times are tough.

[Ollie23]

You need to stay in the game; which means paying your debt and staying current. You could potentially have to do this for a few years so getting the highest paid job (aviation or non aviation) that allows you to do this is what you'll have to do.

Did you not plan for this eventuality before you got yourself into huge dept??

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

They do First Officer training courses these days do they? Here was me thinking all they supplied was basic flying training.

The only jobs out there for you are ones where you:

a) Pay for the type rating from the airline or airlines preferred provider, and

b) Work for free, on

c) A limited time contract, which

d) Probably won't get renewed.



I'd google Ryanair and Brookfield and get £30,000 ready.


Bank workers and teachers among the 2,000 a day applying for a McJob as unemployment surges by 200,000 | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1193538/Bank-workers-teachers-2-000-day-applying-McJob-unemployment-surges-200-000.html)

McDonalds currently have 2,200 new job applicants per day in the UK. Major UK airlines are looking at reducing pilot numbers by circa 20% for this coming winter. You will probably struggle to find ANY paid full time employment.

WWW

[dudeatstarwars]

Thanks for reply. You say keep things current, can you explain at bit more please.Is that more flying hours? Sim hours etc etc
So basically try for any job hopefully in the aviation industry, and hope in the furture someone might want me to employ me.....

I knew the situation was a bit iffy when I started training, but was reassured that its not that difficult to get a job after training, just might take a bit liitle more time........( how Wrong)

basically so no chance of gettinga job if thousands and thousands fill in these on line applications forms, with people not getting a reponse, due to such large numbers
Who would want a newly trained F/O with no experience compared to thousands who are pilots from other airlines chasing jobs.

disappointing!!!

As I am new to this what web sites advertise jobs please apart from the web links directly to Airlines themselves?

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Whilst having some sympathy with someone faced with little prospects of employment after incurring a debt, reading your posts thus far, it really appears you have gone into this with eyes somewhat closed, and begs the question, what did you really expect come the issue of your CPL/IR with 200 hours?

You say things were a bit iffy when you started, but the writing was clearly clearly on the wall I'm afraid.

And asking what websites are out there, come on now, it's not hard to find them. And if you're in training now and don't know yet where to look, or indeed that it's a surprise to you that the jobmarket is in freefall, you really really ought to question your motivation for this career.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but compared to some guys in the same boat, it appears you are woefully ill prepared!! This isn't a personal attack on you, just the way it strongly appears reading your posts, and it may serve as a warning to others, but I doubt it.

"Who would want a newly trained F/O with no experience compared to thousands who are pilots from other airlines chasing jobs"

Precisely!

Google Flight International jobs if you want, but don't hold your breath. Also www.PPJN.com (http://www.PPJN.com) for a general overview, but again, ditto.

Good luck, I genuinely wish you well, however I fear this won't be the last thread of this ilk, others will follow.

[dudeatstarwars]

I did look into it and made the judgement of going into training with advice I was given at the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! took about 2 years to decide.

I am only asking for advice,yes there is lots to find out, which I am solely prepared to do........I am wholly committed into being a pilot...I only wanted some advice.......wish I had never asked now..............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Are you sure you're not a Troll?


Friend, there are people at Virgin Atlantic with 5,000+ hrs on heavy commercial airliners who are out of work or about to be. CTC has a vast Olympic sized swimming pool packed with eager 200hr cadets perfecting their backstroke who all come fitted with a type rating by CTC. There are pilots of every shape, experience and flavour either out of work or applying for jobs because they fear their current job is for the chop.

There really is only one game in town for you and that's paying Ryanair for a type rating and some work experience which *may* result in a contract with Brookfield. Given they have frozen British FO command opportunities and are talking of closing some UK bases even thats a long and possibly pointless shot.


That's it.


You're in a grave situation and keeping things current for the upturn is going to take years and years and in that time your skills will deteriorate. You have spent around 4 months acquiring just over 150hrs of flying light aircraft. With every week, month and year that passes your rapidly learned flying skills will leak out of you. To the point where you'll really struggle to pass a sim assessment when sat next to someone smelling of fresh paint just out his MCC course.

*THIS* is the reason people like me have been banging a drum so hard around here (its fallen to bits now) about timing your training being so important.

You must have started with CABAIR since the collapse of Lehman Brothers. That was frankly mad.

Everything now depends on your financial situation. Is you debt manageable, do you have a career to return to and are you willing to throw a lot more time and money at your career are key questions.

Did this topic not come up in conversation with your course mates earlier?

WWW

[ford cortina]

Son you will come out of training with 200 hours experience.

I take it you want a job in a Airline. You are a unknown quantity to them. You don't know how to operate a Boeing, Airbus, Dash8, RJ100 etc...so then you are unemployable, in th current market place. I have friends with hours on type, airline experience on Boeing and Airbus and cannot get a sniff, they are ready to go straight into a OPC and start in a few weeks, not a few months as you are.

Cabair have sold you a dream, it is obtainable, but it will cost you lots more money and pain. If you are really lucky you might get a chance with Ryanair, but don't hold your breath as they have lots of recruits and are slowing down Type rating courses.

You are training to be a professional Pilot, use that common sense that you have and look, do some research.

Your comment about living abroad and freight is just silly. I share a house in Africa, where I am now, with a very highly experienced Captain who did 15 years Freight, he loved it, it is no different to the Human kind, just quieter.
I did not intend to work here, along with most of the crew down here, but we are all B737 drivers and you go where the work is.

Hope you have a back up plan in order to help service your debt.

[dudeatstarwars]

Thanks for reply

I think my thread was misunderstood. I put I DONT MIND flying freight etc anything.(why is that silly)


I am not niave, have spent a long time looking into this career before starting, with the information I had and was given at that time made a decision. I couldnt do any more than that.

All I wondered was what people are doing in the same situation after training.........no more no less.........maybe us poor souls new to all this, shouldnt ask for any advice,because we are judged to be not committed to the job in hand if we do.........

[Ollie23]

I am not niave, have spent a long time looking into this career before starting, with the information I had and was given at that time made a decision. I couldnt do any more than that.

It certainly doesn't appear that way based on what you have written, I suggest you could have done a lot more, did your research consist of reading the cabair broacher?

[ford cortina]

It was just the fact you wrote twice ' I don't mind flying freight'. Why is freight so inferior, so many young wannabes and general public think it is. If you fly freight you will carry things that are far move valuable than any human cargo you can mention (remember this business is about money). I hate it when people have this attitude, which you have shown, that freight is not a proper job. You will find that to work for DHL/TNT etc it can be much harder to get a job rather than the likes of Ryanair.
If you fly freight you will be expected to know your way around your aircraft, not some newly qualified on type who is wet behind the ears.

But you must have a plan in place after all it took you 2 whole years to decide to use Cabair. WWW is right the world has gone mad.
Good luck, you will certainly need it.:ugh:

Just to add have a look here https://pilot.cae.com/Careers.aspx as you will be that desperate. If I were you at your age, do a flight instructors course and try to get a job instructing

[Pace152]

Repeat a hundred times, I am not niave I am naive!

Just out of interest how long ago did you start training? If it was 5 years ago fine not many people saw this coming that long ago but if it was in 2007 it was pretty obvious what was happening to the economy.

As somebody said earlier on the best thing you can do now when you finish training is get any job you can and try to stay current.

[dudeatstarwars]

One very confused person here. I never said or made remarks about freight not being good enough........i think you have the wrong end of the stick.

I put it down twice as the other person thought I didnt want to try and fly freight, of which if you read the first thread I said I did.

I give up with asking for help with these threads,

[Bealzebub]

I put I DONT MIND flying freight etc anything.(why is that silly)

Because it sounds as if you have a bit of a shiny hat complex. Do you think flying freight is some sort of lower caste existence that warrants a comment such as "I DONT MIND"? As others have pointed out, there are very experienced airline pilots (freight, passenger and both) who are either looking for work because of redundancy, or because of the imminent threat of it! This is not simply a UK phenomenon it is global. Nobody needs 200 hour pilots at all. Rarely has there been a time when anybody did. In recent years there has been an expansion of integrated training courses tied to a number of airlines type rating courses that have provided some "cadet" input to airlines. This has led a lot of people to believe that a licence = an airline job. For a few it was true, for the majority it was a fallacy. Even for the few, it required a rapid growth strong economy, with plenty of expansion on the part of the carriers, coupled with the expectation of reduced terms and conditions for the "cadet."

Unfortunetaly you are (like most people) caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand your experience will be buried by that of the realistic competition for any serious flying jobs. At the other extreme those companies that may still seek "cadets" will want to make those applications a source of revenue and profit. A lot of these schemes will seek MPL type applicants (for which you are too qualified.) Others will require to you invest a great deal more money to obtain type ratings with no further guarantee of either meaningful or long term employment at the conclusion of that training.

Ordinarily my advice to you would be, to sit down and take stock of your situation. Set your sights at a realistic level commensurate with your experience and seek any jobs that might raise that basic experience level. Network. Keep your ear to the ground. Read every agency / magazine / internet job vacancy going and send a simple clear accurate CV to any and all realisic prospects. Knock on doors, visit flying clubs and schools, and ask them if they either have or envisage any jobs that will even get you near an airplane. Invest in a lot of postage stamps. In the meantime look for any work that will increase your personal revenue stream. Reduce your outgoings as much as possible. Look at ways of increasing your flying experience at your own expense within a revised time/cost structure.

By all means apply for anything and everything. Most of the time your application will probably be dismissed at the first hurdle. It will however cost you little more than the price of the paper, ink and a postage stamp, and nobody will hold it against you. It has always taken a lot of effort to progress in aviation and it probably always will. In the current and forseeable future it will be particularly difficult, and there will be an even higher rate of attrition. With this in mind you should plan for a much longer period of advancement and do your level best to survive it financially.

Here at the top of the tree, the 3 "R's" are Recession, Retrenchment and Redundancy. The question you should be asking yourself, is what do you feel you could or should do next?

[ford cortina]

Confused I'll say, how can you be so stupid to start training in the middle of the worst recession we have had since the 30's????????????:ok:

[Aerospace101]

Another Wanabe Zombie!!

Sad thing is there are alot more of where he/she came from.

IF anyone had done a reasonable amount of 'research' into becoming a pilot would have found out that from about July2008 the abinitio route to becoming a pilot was effectively shut, still is shut and wont expect to open until atleast 2011.

[2098]

Is this bloke for real? I'd love to know where scabair find some of you idiots. Don't you talk to your course mates or are they all as silly and naive as you?

Any self-respecting wannabe knows that once you finish the MCC get a job and stay as current as possible. Network yourself and pray for better times. If you have 70k debt then surely you should have a plan B and C all ready to go once you finish. If not, then you best start head scratching. My sister went to an open day last week for a part time job (minimum wage) 100 people turned up and there were just 4 jobs to be had.

I spent 12 weeks on the dole applied for over 150 jobs and got about 5 replies. Word of advice for a fresh CPL holder; do not put commercial pilot’s license blah blah on your CV!

[smith]

don't mind flying freigt?????

Oh yes and there are thousands of unemployed "passenger" pilots out there who will refuse to fly freight!!!! Do you live in a cave? Are you under the impression that the lowly freight carriers will be begging you to work for them. Get a life mate, or grow up!!!!

[MIKECR]

My 2 cents worth. For the rest of the year, and in all probability next year too, the job scene is pretty well screwed. We havent quite seen a Dan Air or Air Europe(for those that can remember them!) go bust yet. It is however pretty dire times recruitment wise.

To the original poster -

Passenger airlines - no receruitment just now, redundancies all round. Those that have recruited within the last 12 months(Flybe, Ryanair, to name but a few) - long waiting lists for TR courses and start dates,and many offered cabin crew, ops jobs etc to keep them going interim period. Bargain on 12 - 24 months for any further recruitment.

Biz/Corporate - forget it unless you've got experience. Many biz jet jobs are harder to get than airline positions. Wealthy private owners and companies demand highly experienced crew up front and will pay well for the privilage. Bargain on a few years air taxi etc to break into this market. With companies like Netjets making people redundant, its not good news!

Air taxi/charter etc(light twins etc) - minimum 700 hours usually with at least 100 hours P1 MEP IFR time. Probably the hardest flying around hence high hours requirements on the twin MEP time.

Freight/Cargo - very similar to the airlines. The big jet companies(DHL etc) - lots of jet hours or at the very least lots of turboprop hours. Same go's for turboprop freight operators just now, competion is fierce for jobs. I know of 767 Captains with 20 years experience battling for a job on a Shorts 360 at the moment.

Turboprop Regional airlines - the Aer Arrans, Loganairs, eastern airways etc of this world ideally prefer the 1000 hours self improvers for the simple reason they can promote FO's to LHS quickly when the big boys start recruiting.

Flying Instruction - perhaps a few jobs around(mostly part time) but at least £7000 to do the rating. Lots of qualified FI's around now though and competition is hotting up for the few spaces around. Theres even a few around who are sending CV's with the "will work for free line"!!:ugh:

As for the glider towing, para dropping etc.....mostly all unpaid(assuming you can find any). Its not a job, just something to keep the hours ticking at best.

Sorry to sound negative but thats the reality of it just now. The entire job market is absolutely 100% thoroughly at a standstill. Whether it's BA, Virgin, Eastern Airways.....or Air Charter 'whoever' etc etc, it's totally stagnant, with redundancies all round.

My best advice - find a job(ANY job) and start saving some cash if you can. Try and keep the flying current as best you can(many airlines will require 30 - 50 hours P1 in the preceeding 12 months to application). Be prepared for at least another 1 or 2 MEIR renewals.

As for the Eaglejet's of this world...and all the other buy a job scheme's around...thats a whole different thread!:mad:

You chose a bad bad bad :mad: time to start an integrated course. Assuming your not a wind up!

[magnificent_man]

Assuming this isn't a wind up, maybe it's a bit harsh to say this guy was so stupid to start an integrated course. If he is about to finish at the end of the end of the year he would have started before Lehman went t**s up and things got really bad etc, assuming its an 18 month course. No one can see in to the future. Inevitably when you start this sort of thing you have rose tinted goggles on as you want it badly enough.

A lot of instructors / schools etc have said now is a good time to start training as by the time you are done (around 2 years) things should have improved, always quoting the old chestnut that the industry is cyclical. Seems like a hell of a gamble. Does anyone agree now is a good time to start?

M.M

[quant]

If you can't get yourself a flying job perhaps you can find something related at the aiport, cabin crew, checkin or return to your previous career (if you have one) and save money. Do whatever it takes to keep yourself current and flying and continue to build hours even if that means working at a supermarket/call centre etc.

good luck m8 it will get better :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sorry the replies have been quite brutal but that is the way things go on discussion forums when genuine people post questions that are somewhat troll like.

Comfort yourself that at least you've heard the unvarnished unspun truth about your situation post-training. And its cost 'nowt which in aviation is unusual.

Many people who have replied will share my frustration that so many people continue to hurl themselves into very expensive flying training with little to no prospect of finding work at the end of it. That frustration is not your fault and we shouldn't have a go at you because of it.

Nevertheless you popped up and presented yourself as a poster boy for the Wannabe Zombie Army and got shot at as a result. Every poster on this thread shares my thoughts of support and sympathy for your situation I am sure. More than likely each one has undergone the trials and risks of the path you now walk down. We know how fraught it is. We're just cross that whilst we chanced it in daylight you chose to walk the path in the early hours of the morning. With the wolves crying in the distance. In your flip flops. Wearing red.

We don't want to see you get eaten but we're a bit cross you've taken such a gamble.


Good luck,


WWW

[PPRuNe Towers]

Nice post Simon,

That's until people have a look at your previous posts. They can simply judge for themselves whether you're part of the zombie marching army.

This thread has been stickied as some small balance to the FTO's need for fresh meat whether there are jobs or not.

[disco87]

Glad I've put my training on hold for a year, only problem is that there is a total lack of jobs everywhere.

[G SXTY]

dudeatstarwars

I started training in late 2000, so had a ringside seat for 9/11 and the aviation recession that followed. That put my plans back by several years, but as I'd gone modular, it meant I had the flexibility to slow things down and keep my day job. I started my CPL / IR in the summer of 2007, and frankly I was worried sick that the bubble would burst in the three months or so it would take me to get qualified - that was 2 years ago.

If you're expecting to finish integrated training at the end of this year, you would have started in the second half of last year, which suggests your research into this industry must have reached very different conclusions to mine . . . By then it was pretty obvious we were in serious economic trouble, and WWW had spent months taking abuse on here for trying to warn teenage wannabes just how bad things were about to become. That explains the frustration in many of the replies - experienced people saw this coming, but young, impressionable wannabes continued to buy the dream sold to them by FTOs desperate for cash.

That, however is by the by. You have to make the best of the situation you are in. You won't want to hear this, but as others have said, It's extremely unlikely that there will be many jobs for 200hr CPLs for at least the next two to three years. If you don't believe me, pull out your history books and read up on how the pilot job market behaved after the first Gulf War and 9/11. The way things are, I wouldn't even bother trying to keep current after you qualify. Instrument flying skills degrade incredibly quickly, and you'll just be burning money trying to keep current when there are no jobs to apply for. Finish your training, find a job - any job - that pays the bills (and maybe even starts paying off that enormous debt you'll no doubt have). Within a year, renew your IR and review the situation - is the job market any better or still the same? If it has improved by then, it might be a good time to start regaining some currency (if you can afford it). If not, you'll be wasting your money - stick to the day job.

It's been said so many times that I'm almost sick of repeating it, but timing is everything in this game. Your timing could not have been worse, but it's not the end of the world. If you can cover the bills until the job market does improve, and afford some IR practice then, so that you are reasonably current, you will eventually find a job. I have a friend who graduated from BAe (now FTE) in 2002, without a hope of employment. He managed to get work in the civil service, which tided him over until the job market picked up, then got on the CTC Wings scheme, and now flies for BA.

With enough determination (and financial support) nothing is impossible, but your choice of timing has made your task extraordinarily difficult.

[Bruce Wayne]

My eyebrows are often slightly raised in threads such as these.

What I find surprising is the questions that are put sometimes forward and the 'support' and also the 'derision' that they invoke.

First off, Simon, Hang in there. If you just keep presenting well at your interviews

Are you kidding me ? keep presenting yourself well at interviews!

Anybody, even an experienced line pilot with time on type will be damn lucky to even get a call in for an interview right now.

The point that you are missing by 'a country mile' simon is that there are more pilots with time on type, line experience, in hold pools, instructing when they can get the work etc etc than there is demand right now.

You will be lucky to have your C.V. stay out of the bin, let alone get the chance to attend an interview. Note, that is interview, singular not plural.

dudeatstarwars...

Fair enough, you are new into this industry. We all were once upon a time, so you have questions and have a degree of uncertainty about certain aspects of the industry.

However,

You are on a 'first officer course' with cabair. As such, to ask the question on what it means to stay current is an 'eye-opener'. As a CPL you should have an understanding of the regulations that govern your license. Not only is it part of the CPL exams, you should have an understanding what, not only the currency requirements are, but what it means.

This is where some of us who have been in this industry for some years take a blunt response.

Often we see questions asked on simple applicability. The answers are not national secrets. In fact, the answers are often available on the websites for the the appropriate aviation authority. If someone who either purports to be a commercial pilot, or is working toward becoming a commercial pilot doesn't know where to look then that says something.

The experienced people on this have no problem in trading and sharing information and knowledge with those who are less experienced, however when a question arises such as "what is currency" or "what are the requirements to convert an ICAO CPL" or "I have a JAA CPL is this an ICAO CPL?" the general thought process that follows is "Oh come on!"

These are not questions that someone who has a professional license should be asking.

First off, if you hold or are working toward a professional license then you should be thinking like a professional.

If you hold a professional license then you are, for all intents and purposes a professional.

What must be considered is that some people post responses and advice with the understanding that we were all new to this industry once and are happy to share thoughts so when there is advice that this industry is facing to coin a political quote "unprecidented times of difficulty and instability" and that this is not a good time to be starting, or indeed in an integrated course, or looking for a job fresh out of one; LISTEN!

For those who are in that position, or are considering one right now, do not take it as a personal attack on you. The integrated training facilities have sold you on fiction and projections that are as unrealistic as those of Alistair Darling / Gordon Brown.

Personally, I think that the integrated training facilities are drifting very close to Advertising Standards. It's interesting to note how the benefits will be expressed verbally but in writing is it more, well lets say 'ambiguous'.

The resultant factor is that people that have been in this industry for a period of time see questions asked that are frankly questions that an ab-intio would be asking, not a professional license holder and the responses therefore are brutal.

Going back to the title of this thread, people like WWW have given apt advice.

Yes, he is often classed as being negative. Being, factual of the situation is not negative. It is fact. It may not be what you want to hear, but as a professional do you want to work with fact or fantasy?

[CHERNO_SAMBA]

The worrying thing is to think of how many people out there who are in dudeatstarwars position.

[Bruce Wayne]

Simon,

there is noting wrong with having an idealistic intention as long as it tempered with reality.

Would you rather advice be more attune to "blowing smoke up your ass"?
If so then fine, there are jobs out there, plenty of them, go get em guys and gals!

That is not the truth, if someone genuinely asks for advice on the current situation then fine. If you dismiss asked advice as it is not what you want to hear, then don't ask.

It is more supportive to others to advise that the job market is worse than difficult right now and not to sit there anticipating a flight deck position.

Over the course of the years you will always work with, fly with, come into contact with people that have more experience than you, that have been there seen it and done it before, you would do well to listen to them not disregard anyone that that tells you something you don't want to hear as a smattering of one-upmanship,negativity, abuse and pretences of knowledge.

Again, this comes back to the point of being a professional. If you take factual advice from the experienced as offence, then perhaps you are not suited to being an effective cockpit crew member.

[Aerospace101]

I think all the NEGATIVITY in this thread should be used as a very strong WARNING to all wannabes that the glossy image of handing over 80K in return for a First Officer flying job is far from reality in the current environment! And anyone thinking of starting abinitio this or next year should look through all the marketing :mad:

[pilot mji]

Now I happen to be a wannabe pilot and apparently also an "ignorant idiot" (according to what I have been reading in these posts). I can't help but wonder, do the regulars to pprune set out to apportion blame and treat people like crap for asking a question? I have been a member of pprune for years and although I don't usually contribute I definitely get a laugh out of reading some of the posts on this forum. Most of the ones I have read have always been very negative. I don't understand why if someone asks a question in what is, after all, the "WANABEE" section of pprune, he gets bullied to the extent of being called names. I'm sorry but I have to say I'm appalled. Now my advice, even though i'm "ignorant", is of course to do what some of the people, after they finished insulting the guy, said. I am personally hoping to get some turbine time up in the next couple of months flying an aircraft owned by a distant cousin of mine. I am also quite interested in the "free flying" part time aspect of glider towing or in jobs in Africa flying safari tours in C206s and then on 208s, anything to get experience really. At the moment, as the market stands, I think getting down and dirty for a couple of years is the best way to do things. This was done by countless previous wanabees, still is and I think will be a way of "growing" as a pilot for years to come. I understand it is not feasible to expect to jump directly into the airlines but that is not going to stop me sending out CVs to absolutely everybody I can think of. You never know what their answer might be... For what I have just written I will probably have a pile of s**t flying my way in a couple of minutes, but I thought I finally had to say something. Anyway, I am preparing my umbrella in case of any runny replies...

[jetzup]

There were quite a few posters in this thread who gave constructive advice to starwars without the sarcasm or the jab. I think wannabes in general will appreciate that and welcome more of it.

[woodcoc2000]

Whoa..

poor chap just asked a question.. yeah ok was a bit naive but...

look; the fella is 20 years old.. He has just come out of school and so any organization with the word "school" or "college" in it; he is going to assume that they have his best interests at heart. Besides; before we all started in this industry how many aviation contacts did we all have to put us straight?? How many questions on pprune have you seen answered completely differently (sometimes even by the same person!!)http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif so how would you know who to trust. I know this was sort of the situation i was in; started training a year after 9/11. Sod all jobs at the time (working now though)..

The trouble is the people who know better are all in the industry; and the people who should know better (FTO'S) have an interest in saying things are great. When is the last time you have heard an FTO say "actually no; now is not the time to train"? It is frustrating to see newbies come in to find all their expectations dashed but until the FTO's start telling something approaching the truth then this will continue.

[RoyHudd]

Sorry to tell you this, but the industry is dying.

I don't expect to be working in a couple of years, and am maxing out on overtime to save up for the chop. Having lost 2 good flying jobs since 1998, as a seasoned A320/A330 pilot, I pride myself on being a realist. No more work for me, in all likelihood.

Folks, don't waste your money. (Sorry)

[skeletor]

How about working part-time behind the ops desk at Cabair. Grab as many ferries as you can to reamin current. Statistically this tended to lead to a proper job. Keeps you involved anyway

[G-ADAM]

Hi guys and girls!

This, as you may notice, is my first post so hopefully I wont do anything wrong or break any forum rules. I did read them all Scroggs, honest!

I, unfortunatley, am in the same position as dudeatstarwars :{. I did however, by the looks of things, do a bit more research into the current situation believe it or not. I have started my proffessional training at a very bad time given the economic climate but decided to continue knowing that I could afford it now- something I may not be able to do further down the line.

Clearly there are no jet jobs for someone in my position but the advice on this and other threads has been invaluable so thank you to those who have come up with some useful advice and information.

It does appear that a lot of training providers these days are churning out students who really have no concept of the airline industry and think that just because they have a nice shiny new fATPL that an airline will take them on!! But I guess thats what happens when so many people are allowed to undertake proffessional pilot training having studied nothing but the 'Bristol database' for 6 months! IMHO this is a real issue because given 6 months to study the database I think my mum could pass most of the ATPL theory exams! Not enough emphasis is given to learning the technical side these days- it all just appears to be answer learning!!!

I have completed the first two years of the Kingston University degree in 'Aviation Studies for Commercial Pilot Training' at Cabair in Bournemouth. The course content is the JAA sylabus but taken further so in 18 months you learn what you need for the ATPL exams and a fair bit more. The university exams are not multiple choice and thus are subjective answer type questions. This forces you to know your stuff especially seeing as the majority of the exam questions require 'applied knowledge' i.e. not something you have ever been taught but require a good deal of understanding in other areas to answer. I plan to continue onto the third year of my degree at Kingston to complete the engineering degree.

Apologies for going a bit off topic there but I think that there are too many people with no real understanding of the job situation/industry today. A course like the one I have done is intended to draw in people who can think for themselves and who do not expect everything to be handed to them on a plate! I know plenty of people who have done their ATPLs and have no clue what to do with them. Many I expect will just let them lapse and never do anything- very sad having spent all this money.

Sorry if I have waffled on a bit but just thought I'd share my thoughts with everyone on 'fresh fATPL' holders! I myself hope to become one in the next month as my IR test is booked for 2 weeks time :eek:.

Ad

[jetzup]

@G-ADAM, it would be helpful for many wannabes from your country, if you can also elaborate on what kind of work you can apply for after completing this particular degree, also the job availability and prospects, the earning potential in the first couple of years.

[G-ADAM]

Hi Jetzup,

well the answer is... I don't actually know! This course is still in it's infancy and in fact, my year is the first year that the course has ever run. There is currently a course one year behind us with twelve students in the class and there were twenty in ours. There is a new intake (2 classes) starting in September and there should be about 40 ish new students.

Once my year has finished then we will have at least some statistics but given the intellectual ability of some on my course, I don't think more than about half will get flying jobs! Who knows though. Given the current job market, or lack of it, I don't think many of us will gain employment as aircrew any time soon but I'll keep you updated if we do!

The course itself is aimed at people who ultimately want to end up in the right-hand seat of an airliner but I know of one person who is just doing it for the degree. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to 'advertise' the course in this thread but if you want more info, check the Cabair website it's all on there :)

Hope that helps!

[wangus]

Oh dear. This is the first time I've logged on in months. Now I remember why. There are some harsh truths on here, but also some nasty comments I don't understand. As someone mentionned earlier WWW was merely voicing predictions, and how correct they've been. (Can you advise me on some stocks and shares.) I did my research for several years before starting the modular route, and qualified with CPL/IR/MCC in January 2008. Unlike the optimists from Cabair and Oxford, I spent the latter half of my training (working full-time) thinking I'd made a monumental mistake. I always knew that 260 hours was "scum of the earth" territory. The last 18 months have only reinforced this. Not a single interview, from Europe to HK, and everywhere in between. A friend of mine flies the A300-600 Freighter in Far East, and it is amazing, demanding, and rewarding. (I agree about this rediculous misconception about cargo. I would be thrilled and do pretty much anything to get to that position. In no way is it 2nd rate flying. Quite the opposite I would say. Max T/O weights. Into challenging destinations. Superb in my opinion.)
I know multiple former XL pilots, and I feel for some of these guys immensely. (Some of them were the most arrogant pilots I've ever met.) I know several that still have found no work. If they are in that position, how do guys like me stand any chance.
What staggers me is that a gentleman with whom I work, and has seen me struggle, has taken his son to The Flyer open day, followed by an Oxford day, and has been sold an £80,000 Integrated course starting in October. Deposit paid. I nearly burst into laughter when he told me, followed by tears.
Just writing my thoughts here so little structure to this.
My conclusion is that there will be no real improvement in two years as the government and "experts" predict. My CPL/IR/MCC will be 3 and a 1/2 years old. My sharpness and proficiency will have suffered. My wife's patience will have been exhasuted, and my keenness all but evaporated. My debt will be gone in 18 months, and the thought of taking on more is about as appealing as sticking a pineapple up my a**. Newly qualified MPL pilots with their new blue books will be far fresher than me, an increassingly cynical 35 year old.
I work on the ground at a huge airport, and the public is becoming increasingly vile. Yesterday two co-workers were verbally abused by passengers. One lady called a :mad:, and a colleague from St. Lucia called a :mad::mad:. Do I really want to spend hours in the air with these people???? Getting home at 0700?? Not sure anymore. Having done 10+ hours in 757-200 sim recently, actually got bored after about 5 hours. Heaven forbid, I've said it. Bored.
WWW. Boy do I wish I'd known you 6 years ago to avoid this nonsense. Out of the negative comes a positive I suppose. I'll stop wishing my life away, and turn my back on this fantasy. No IR renewal for 18 months, if I can be bothered. Feel better now!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Gosh.

I'm really sorry to hear your tale of woe. Thanks for sharing it. I've heard and seen it many many times but most Wannabes haven't. It takes bravery to admit in public that you regret something to which you've devoted time, energy and money.

If its any consolation I have known people who've done the whole waiting-6-years-for-a-first-job thing and they made it in the end. It can be done but it is tiresome and you are right in wondering whether it is worth it. Its a repetitive job based on shift work and makes you live where you don't want to live quite often. If there was another job that could pay me as well and didn't involved touching an aeroplane then I'd seriously think about it. And I'm early 30's so not really properly jaded yet.

Best of luck with whatever you do next.


WWW

[irishwhale]

I am also a wannabe and very much appalled at the level of grief endured for asking a question....wannabes need questions answering too, often stupid,often naive,:sad: but thats why Im a "wannabe"...I need questions answered from people with experience who will answer the questions i feel sound too stupid to be asking someone in the business face to face...!:O:O
unlike alot of you, I havent been there and done it, in fact, i havent experienced a recession before.
For many on this forum, they have been there....airline experience wise and recession experience wise. To me that means this forum is an invaluable source for getting questions answered, however, "trying to throw wannabes off becoming pilots" seems to be the action on this thread. All I can say is
Help....I/we haven`t been there.....Advise me/us on the best route. Please don`t speak in a derrogative way, its very disrespectful.

By the By..... Friend of mine finished his training recently(2.5 months ago).....Integrated course....Now a F/O with Ryanair. It`s not all negative,
Be positive and positive things will happen!!!:ok:

[VeroFlyer]

"Now a F/O with Ryanair. It`s not all negative"

if thats positive...then we're all screwed! :}

[wangus]

I can only speak for myself when I say any opinions I express are not meant to be derrogatory nor disrespectful. I only want people undertaking this route to have their eyes WIDE OPEN. WWW tried to warn us, I wish I'd listened!! One thing I can guarantee is that 99% of schools are going to say is "there has never been a better time to train." Are they going to say anything else???? They have aircraft sat doing nothing. Fees to pay. Finances to pay. More and more groundschool providers are appearing monthly. Sim assesment preparation session providers advertising. They are all screaming for our money, and it is understandable.
Last week at work, a senior captain asked me how the jobhunt was going. I responded, a nightmare. His response was "No, the nightmare begins when you get a job and realise it wasn't what you expected it to be."
Paying Ryanair 30,000 Euros for a 15,000 Euro type rating a positive?? I'm NOT disagreeing, but slightly unclear on that one. As I don't have 30,000 it is not something I can even consider.
Good luck everyone.

[sarah56]

Thanks for your advice.This is really a most valuable information which is very helpful for trainer. Best of Luck...............:D

[YarreYarran]

i am kinda scared after reading all these threads.

[Bla Bla Bla]

Irish whale,

Its not meant to be insulting or rude when people answer questions and show a bit of feeling in doing so. I have been reading pprune for along time but have just started to make the odd comment because I along with many others can't get over the level of naivety that some people seem to have.

I have been staggered at some of the comments made by people who think they maybe the right person to fly an aircraft with real live people in the back. Why are most of you guys who are starting out so keen to get in an airline cockpit on day one and why do you think some here find that attitude annoying. You have to earn it and build on the skills you gain in your cpl and learn the industry, its bloody hard and if you want it you will get it but it may take years and years.

So if you find it a bit hard to take when some one on prune is a little harsh, just take it, life's tough, after all you asked the question or made the comment.

[irishwhale]

Bla Bla Bla

Point taken. Understand it can be annoying at the easiest of times. I am just eager and showing it I guess, I know its a long road that has to be earned. But I`m all rosy eyed compared to the experienced pilots!

Can`t wait to gain experience and tell people like me stuff like that :}.

[artlite]

Young people have an almost biological destiny to be hopeful. I really feel low you try to take it away from the author of this thread or disqualify it. Young, confident and persistent person might even find the economic downturn inspiring. A challenge that exists to make things better (or at least encouraging because things have to get better). As pilots, we all know we can only hope for a favorable wind once there's a destination. Don't take the courage to have this destination away from people.

[Bealzebub]

Yes you are right, and the purpose of these observations and comments, is not to disparage somebodies dreams or ambitions. I would say if you want it and you can afford it then go for it. The schools need the business, and those they employ need to maintain their own livelihoods. I would say the same thing if your burning ambition was to own a Ferrari as well!

The problem is that a lot of people truly cannot afford it, and there is a perception in some quarters that all it takes is the courage to take on enormous debt, or convince a relative to take on enormous debt, and everything will fall into place. Fortune favours the brave and all the cliches that blinker the often painful realities.

These comments are simply an attempt to provide a reality check, before writing out a cashiers cheque! As I say if you want, it, can afford it, and can accept the likely reality, then go for it! If you cannot afford it or cannot accept the reality, then the choice is still yours. Ignoring warning and danger signs, is not sufficient justification for not putting them up in the first place.

[Ric00]

For Aerospace101/2098/Smith etc....
Who do you think you are to call stupid somebody just like that?
Who are you? What did you do in your life to be so happy about it?

This guy just asked for some advice and you guys have been shooting at him as if he was the worst form of human being... Is there a prize for the biggest insult or what? isn't this forum supposed to be helpful???


Riccardo

[Grass strip basher]

I can never quite get my head around why people post on here saying "just out of training what shall I do now??".... surely the answer is obvious... get a job.... any job.... if you have debt to pay make sure you pay it and if you are not totally pissed off with aviation yet try your best to stay current for when the pick-up in the market comes (2, 3, 4 years down the line... however long it may be).... why is that so hard to work out on your own??

If you need help to work that out then sorry you must be an idiot. Having read this thread from beginning to end I can't see why anyone thought the reponses were harsh... the answer to the question was bloody obvious to anyone with half a brain and had been in training for 12-18 months..... maybe I have just forgotten how niave I was when I was 20 years old.

The original "downturn is upon us" thread was started nearly 2 years ago so the writing was on the wall late 07 early 08. As such people starting training post that date don't deserve much sympathy. := :oh:

[artlite]

To the person before me - once the economy picks up, job market loosens up a bit and pilots fresh after training are starting to get hired again.. isn't it awesome having your training completed, ready to apply and snatch it? Or is it better to THEN start the flight training, spend a year doing so and very likely miss yet another window of opportunity?

[Bealzebub]

Only, when you look out of the window of opportunity you are going to see the thousands of furloughed and experienced pilots already camped out on the lawn. It will take some considerable time for this qualified crowd to clear, before it is worth attempting to skip outside into the sunshine. Plenty of time to prepare I suspect.

[Grass strip basher]

Artlite downturns and upturns don't happen in 6 month periods. You won't just get out of bed one day and it is all go again on the recruitment front.

If I were going through training at the moment I would do modular so PPL followed by time spent hour building and gaining experience. Aim to do ATPL written exams end of 2010 early 2011 (they last 3 years) then do CPL, ME/IR when things look to be picking up again (there will be lot of experienced pilots in the pool ahead of 200 hours wannabees so maybe when they start to find work again). The cost of maintaining a PPL is much lower than a multi IR (and arguably a lot more fun).

As for being ready to go when the upturn comes there is no problem having a brand new little blue book (ME/IR) now so long as you are prepared to spend thousands and thousands of pounds over the next couple of years staying current without a sniff of a job with an airline. If you have just finished now it will also be hard to stay "fresh" a couple of years down the line relative to someone who has just finished their IR etc.

It isn't rocket science.... just common sense... unfortunately not everyone seems to be given their fair share of this.

[A330ETOPS]

I got my frozen ATPL last year from an integrated school and 14 months down the line.....still jobless!

Had a few offers, but i'm not prepared to pay for a type rating! Plus i'd have no way of funding it, due to my £2000pcm repayments

My advice to any wannabe's would be to hang back until the industry starts to pick up. When there's jobs coming up, then do your training.

After all, you can do it in a year!

[sbetts]

Hi all,

First time I have posted here, have read it for many years though. Still amazes me the amount of hostility dealt out by some people, yes they are incredibly frustrating times, but that is no excuse for being verbaly abussive. Imagine spending 5 hours in a cockpit with that sort of temperament!
I whole heartedly agree with the "genuine" advice though, I started training in 2001, sold a dream by an FTO, thought I had done my research properly etc etc. Passed everything first time yada yada, then spent the next 7 years trying EVERTHING to get a job, instructed, did free stuff you name it...nothing, no job. I got really bitter about it, blamed everyone but myself, but it's a free world, I didn't have to spend £60,000. Then to top it all, out of the blue, I lost my medical !(In hindsight probably a good job I didn't get a job)
Take the advice on here, these people are speaking from bitter experience, this industry is not like any other, it is wholly about putting a qualified person in a profitable plane, for as little cost as humanly possible. Doesn't matter a jot if you think you are an exceptional pilot, passed everything first time etc.
In my opinion it is the duty of the FTO to be more open about the realities of getting a job (but hey, they are trying to make ends meet as well), Looking back I was such a naive tw*t when I started, believed everything the FTO told me.

Anyways thats my piece said..

Good luck to all you wannabes, but THINK HARD(er) before parting with any cash, it really is unforgiving out there!!

[flyerman2020]

Two years ago I went to CTC for my assesement and boarderline missed out on a place - now I'm glad I did!

I really do feel for you guys who have this massive debt and no job on the immediate horison.

A couple of my friends from my uni degree went on to pilot training, and are just finishing up now (and one more is 4 months in) and I don't think they have a clue what to do either.

As for me...well I managed to score a great position with an aircraft remarketing company with loads of benefits, loads of travel and a salary higher than those who are starting out in the right seat!

All you wannabies - chin up, your time will come.

[TheBeak]

The problem for many is that they feel further away from being a paid pilot, having completed the ATPLs, the CPL and the IR than they did just starting the course. It is exciting back then, you have 200 hours of flying ahead of you, you don't understand the stress of doing a practical test and the money has no meaning for a while. Believe me it all feels very different afterwards. Employers outside of aviation aren't terribly impressed with an fATPL either, it doesn't spell commitment to them. It'll be a hard sell to convince them otherwise. I'd imagine less than 0.5% have a seemless transition from training to job. Most that do get a job have a 6-12 month wait. That is a painful time searching for the money to make the repaymernts when people are umming and ahhhing as to whether you will offer the commitment required to offer you a job in your meantime.

Do it the other way around, if you must at all. Work, work and work for 5-10 years if you have to in order to do this course without taking a loan. You will thank yourself for the breathing space when you are all qualified with a £80K blue plastic book and not a sniff of a pilot job or even any job. The advice of 'meat-bombing', instructing, banner towing and glider towing is wishful thinking. Good luck finding such opportunities. VERY few exist.

I guarantee you that paying for a job with Ryanair or one of these pay-to-fly schemes is not the answer either.

[TheBeak]

They aren't being paid enough for what they are doing though and for what they have invested. A career is a marathon not a sprint. I know many more than 15 people who have thousands of hours, jet time, who can not get a job. They too earned good money. A bubble, in some way or another, will burst with Ryanair. Just look what happened to the UK economy - it was, great, greater, amazing and then it all collapsed very quickly. It's nature. Ryanairs structure is overly engineered and as a result will fail one day. They rely on recessions to buy aircraft cheaply and then sell them on for more than they bought them for, they rely on pilots and cabin crew to sell themselves cheaply and then move on when potential pay increases are due. They wont commit to anything, they hump and then dump. Sooner or later, they will either run out of 'friends' or pay double to be allowed back in e.g. Manchester Airport etc. One shouldn't bite the hand that feeds it. Sure, make hay while the sun barely shines but when the times become good, which they will be one day, we will see who is 'laughing' then.

[LAX]

beak

Rather than dribble the same old bs about RYR get back to the original topic and quit bashing a company i presume youve never worked for?

I dont agree with the terms that new joiners are given and the costs associated it but right now (and the forseeable future) they are the only "next after flight school" option for newbees in europe.

[Snowiey]

Guys,
Even if you have the money available after your (f)ATPL and are willing to take on all that being a Ryan cadet entails, dont assume that you will be given an assessment.
There are nothing like the same number of applicants getting into Ryan as there were a year or two ago. When I was busy with my PPL in 2007 several of the guys at my flight school were coming to the end of the IR. I know five of them applied to Ryan, those five are now on the line.
However, times change, I know of quite a few people (myself included) who applied earlier this year having completed MCC, only two of those applicants even got offered an assessment, one got offered a place on the course, the other didnt. Myself and quite a few others didnt even get the phonecall inviting us for interview, after we had been referred to Ryan via CAE.
In the current climate I really believe you need a certain degree of luck at the application stage as we certainly all had pretty similar training records (good pass rates/exam scores) and some got an interview but most of us didnt.
Six months on and an FI rating, still looking to earn my first penny from aviation as I sit typing this in my parents house (sold my house to pay for the (f)ATPL!)
Please dont pin all your hopes on a Ryan job or even an assessment after training. Even though its very tempting when you see your fellow training buddy's achieving what you worked just as hard for.
I'm hoping for some instructional work (currently on 'stand by' with my local school) then I can start building the elusive hours/experience, really looking forward to teaching and the challenges it will bring. I just want that initial break to get started.
Overall though, I really enjoyed all of the flight training, made some great friends in the process, but it has cost me more than I ever imagined and occasionally the feeling of regret does wash over me (especially regarding the financial aspect and future career prospects).
Its been a long slog, I just hope its worth it one day as the last six months havent been fun at all, despite keeping myself busy with some engineering work. Being obsessed with getting a flying job isnt very healthy and my personal life has suffered as a result. Once the euphoria of IR/CPL passes wear off, reality comes crashing down. There's no way I'm turning back now though.

Jon

[air_wolf]

Do it the other way around, if you must at all. Work, work and work for 5-10 years if you have to in order to do this course without taking a loan. You will thank yourself for the breathing space when you are all qualified with a £80K blue plastic book and not a sniff of a pilot job or even any job.

Best piece of advice on here.....

[the_daddy]

How about this for an idea, we all hold hands, play nice, put our very educated and technically superior heads together and start our own airline?(!)

We could have terms and conditions that favour low hour pilots, paid-bonded type ratings, free food, uniforms, medicals and lots of time off to revel in our achievements..

In order to get this idea off the ground (pun intended) I vote that instead of letting fresh GCSE-waving wannabies give their money to the traditional outfits we coerce them into putting all their cash into a '787-purchase-fund-pool' and order a few wide bodies once we have enough of them sold on the idea.. (Pyramid scheme anyone?)

.....

At this point I would like to inform you that as a low hour pilot myself the whole situation has sent me somewhat delusional and I am starting to believe this will be the only way!

As for my real answer to the original question; work hard in any job you can get while still keeping current, then work harder making sure you keep reading your ATPL theory books and anything else you can get your hands on. Once you feel there is no hope then work harder still and do the above again and again and again and again..

I personally enjoy learning and don't see this as a chore - I have read most of the books I have cover to cover three times or more and have learned something new in each case (Even the comm's one!). I also do this so that when/if an interview does come up I don't have to panic-read all the stuff in 2 weeks and can spend the time more wisely on preparing myself for the other interview parts. Isn't this common sense? I think so.

No one is going to hand this dream over to me or anyone of us on a plate and I believe only the most determined and adaptable will succeed (eventually/hopefully!)

Air travel will not disappear but the role of a Pilot will change as the airlines have to combat all forms of new and old challenges, namely the environment, fierce competitiion, oil prices and its availability etc.. At the moment I think the only option I have is to practice what I preach.. Back to 'eye-tee' for me..

[Karel1]

I think that your response is as to the point as it can get and I completely agree with you. I am 32 and got my PPL when I was 21 when the aviation idustry in Ausralia was very quiet. I refused to take out a massive debt only to not be guaranteed a job at the end. I have worked as a pharmacy assistant to earn the money and have got myself almost to the 200hr CPL level and am studying the ATPL theory exams. I was at all times aware of the simple forces of supply and demand and have seen this in action in the aviation industry. In Australia we have been lucky as we had a massive mining boom which has led to huge pilot demand in the general aviation industry (GA), not airlines. These are usually small Charter companies who fly tourists around and workers to mine sites. The financial crisis has had some impact but nowhere near as much as elsewhere in the world. Again I don't want to sound harsh but some of these boys need to realise that the word AIRLINE should not be in their vacabulary until they have about 1500hrs experience flying light aircraft in the hot desert with poor pay and working conditions. There you will have to deal with the real pressures of aviation such as dealing with passengers throwing up over you, aircraft breaking down, bosses forcing you to fly overweight, spending long hours waiting in 45C heat. In very simple terms an airline company will want pilots who are the cream of the crop and who have experiences that extend well beyond sitting in a SIM looking at dials, that is the minimum expectation. At my age I am hopeful but understand that airline captain is possible but unlikely given my current experience. I am looking to instructing to start with and see where the road takes me. Unless you are in an airline training program to start with or are recruited from the military I think you cant bypass the general aviation industry for all that critical experience that nothing else will give you, and that means accepting the conditions that I have described.

[Ronand]

The reality is that we have spent huge amounts of cash, for a paper that is worth basically nothing in the aviation industry! At least I didn't make any depts.... And if u think u can get a job as a cargo pilot somewhere in Africa or Asia like I did, u will soon wake up!! Without Hours and Typerating or good contacts your chances are basically ZERO.....
The only thing I noticed Jobhunting (Not even Aviation jobs) is that it is actually a disadvantage having a Frozen ATPL, if u are looking for regular jobs.
I was at an interview for a job as chauffeur for an Itallian diplomat (I'm Itillain too) (Really good pay and very few hours, probably better than a F/O job these days). Guess what they said:" You really fit into the profile, and we would have liked to offer you the job, but we don't know if we can count on you if u get a joboffer from an ariline. Therefore we decided to hire someone else...." :{
Now I have 2 diffrent CV's one for regular jobs and one for Aviation jobs... And still Jobless!!:ugh:

[pilotho]

it's all very well saying you haven't got a fATPL but what do you say if they ask you what you was doing for the last year or so?

i don't know if I am right because i haven't got any positive replies from jobs yet but i put down that I do have a fATPL but from that, i can bring many different skills which i had to prove to have in order to get the license.

i can't really think of anything else that would tell them something positive for having an 18 month blank on my cv.

[Ronand]

Well I didn't say it's good to leave a gap in your CV, but I for example did a modular course while going to uni (just didn't do many exams in that period), so I just put Uni for that time. I'm pretty sure I would have gotten the Job with just leaving the Pilot stuff away :ugh: The problem is, there aren't even many regular jobs these days.... I must admit I really feel for those who finished their training with the banks money and have 40k plus debts and are standing there with completely empty hands now.... While they are in training a lot of guys are thinking:" I'll be fine, I'll go to Africa or middle east and fly some propeller planes for the beginning...." But thats just not realistic. I sent more than 150 CVS to Propeller and Turboprob Operators worldwide (Had all first time passes and 95% average on the ATPL exams). Didn't get a single Interview. I even called a lot of operators in Africa.... My mate travelled to Africa looking for bush pilot jobs and returned with empty hands. The problem is, most of the small prop charters are single pilot and they require Pilots with 1000 hours or more.... And don't forget that the economy is down there aswell! If u have contacts that might be a diffrent story.....

[BubbaMc]

Were you guys seriously expecting to go straight into an airline after training? Over here it has never worked that way and never will.

Hassle your local sky diving club or gliding club for some work to keep your hours ticking over. Get your instructors rating, find some students and work part time on weekends. Join the RAF or apply for a CX cadetship. Keep your instrument rating current. In the meantime find a real job to pay off the loans.

Aviation is a cut-throat industry and always has been. Only the very pro-active or very lucky will make it.

Good luck :ok:

[expedite08]

With regard to the gaps in CV's and not being accepted for a job, you all need a dose of common dog! You never mention that you are qualified in some profession or other regardless of what it is, if you are not going for a job in that particular field! Do not even put any irrelevant skills or qualifications on your CV! A CV is tailord towards the particular role you are applying for! I have three of them at the moment! :ok:

[Nemo...]

Guys, I understand where a lot of you are coming from in reference to how crap the job market is at the moment, but there are people who follow thier dreams no matter how hards its going to be, I dont think these people should be blasted quite so bad. Good on you I say.

I am such a person, im 30yrs old have run a succesfull buisness for the past 10yrs, which has given me a good life with nice perks, cars, holidays etc, but ever since ive been a lad ive wanted to be an airline pilot, and over the past few months that desire has got stronger and stronger, I know im running out of time to do it because of my age, so Im going for it and risking everything in the process, Im going into this with my eyes wide open I know it will more than likely end without a job, but I dont care, because for me living the rest of my life knowing I didnt attempt my dream will be a lot worst than picking up the pieces if chasing my dream goes wrong.

Im a firm believer in life you only regret the things you didnt do, not the things you did. In buisness ive made some monumental bad choices, but I dont regret them, as one or two of my decisions worked out.

Your a long time dead etc:ok:

[boddamese]

Some of the replies to the original thread cross the line between "cold hard reality" and "hostility". Is that appropriate? Take a deep breath before you reply :)

For my tuppence worth...I would hope to tick the three necessary boxes as a wannabe:-
1) Optimistic - why else would you start down this road in the first place, at any time?
2) Realistic - my CPL/IR was completed Mar '09 and I don't expect a (flying) job this year or next.
3) Flexible - pay me (anything that is enough to cover rent, food & debt) and I will take any job, anywhere. At least until I am in a position to be more selective!

To the original poster (in the unlikely event he/she will ever be back...):-

Bad timing is better than no timing at all (i.e. not going for it if it is something you want to do), pay the debt off as best you can and fly, fly, fly in the mean time (it is supposed to be fun, remember!). Events beyond my control may conspire against me and I may never get a job to show for my £xxx outlay but I don't regret trying. :ok:

[ou7blaze]

I'm not sure how to put this but reading this thread definitely put me back a bit however it definitely served its purpose, which was to give me a reality check!

Where I live, (Hong Kong) airlines and jobs are a rarity. I'm currently deciding on whether to pursue a SPL or PPL in Australia as the economy still seems uncertain. Hopefully when I have returned a try for a cadet position wont be so bad.

For all the other wannabes we can only put our best effort in and hope. :sad:

[BigDoris]

Just sit tight. That's what I and many others are doing, whilst at least trying to keep current.

Of course, you could spend your time getting more and more depressed by trawling through endless amounts of negativity, abuse and garbage on pprune :}:rolleyes:

[Hspilot23]

Well the world economy definately sucks for aviation right now and I know several thousand captains and FO's are furloughed because our sector took a hit, but at the same time I'm sure the reason some 5000hr airline pilots are still out of work is because they are picky. Not that it's a bad thing. I'm actually glad the entry level freight/life flight/corporate jobs are available to me and not the heavy drivers. So, thanks guys for not wanting to take a step back so that I can take one forward. If a 1500 hr CMEL/CFII such as myself can find work around the local airport(s) just by networking and sending out resumes there isn't much to say that a 200hr student can't find a job instructing if they motivated and flexible enough.

And as far as blasting this kid for not knowing what he was getting himself into... you people need to lighten up a bit. Or didn't you know that even seasoned veterans in aviation are not safe from an economic collapse... maybe you should have asked somebody about that before you got your PPL back in '95 when the market was strong...

[stephenboyd9396]

Come on guys, give this kid a break.

If he 20 1/2 years old now, then he was 18 or 19 when he started his training. Agreed, he probably didn't do nearly enough research, or maybe he was blinkered and only saw potential in something he has probably wanted to do for most of his life.

The fact of the matter is my friend, you have come into the market at a very difficult time and you can't get disheartened. If you believe you will get a job, then eventually you will. Don't listen to all the negativity from everyone on here. Do you think Howard Schultz (Starbucks) listened to the 95% of businessmen who wouldn't invest in his coffee espresso shop in Seattle back in the 60's. Now look at him; extremely successful, and as a bonus, although not a reason you should do something, he is extremely wealthy.

I presume that as you are so young, you don't have a trade to fall back on. This is going to be an issue for you. If you had your parents fund your training, maybe that can afford to give you some leeway with regards to paying back the debt. However, don't sit around waiting. Get ANY job you can to show willing.

As for the currency comment. How do you think you stay current???? I believe you should have read what you wrote before posting. It may have saved you quite a lot of flak.

Best thing you can do is dig your heels in, stay up to speed with airline news (every airline). Stay inside you ATPL theory books and keep applying for the jobs.

[Poeli]

Believe me, there are way to many naive people @ flight schools. My college works together with a flight school over here and 8 people will begin flight training in february, I too had the chance to do it, but i didn't because of the crisis and becoming a pilot without a degree is not a good idea:-)
There was an information evening last month.
One of my classmates main questions was about the uniform. The uniform. I could'nt believe my ears.

I continue to say to them they won't find a job. You know their reaction? ' We will definatly find a job, when we graduate the crisis is over'. And guess who thold him that? The flight school.:ugh:

[mukoba737]

What is wrong with some guys here...

Is there no common sense in giving a reply without insult?
You could tell someone that he is going the wrong way by just being a good advisor or did your teachers and parents give you such reply when you went the wrong way?

Come on guys...I personally know a couple of flight crews that would not change their oppinion about passenger flying is the only true flying...despite me thinking different but what the hell...all i can do is tell them that they have to look outside of their preference....but you know what...I never say that they are cavemen, simply because thgey do not look at the rest of flying...

In this thread there are two guys wanting to get some advise on how to go about things...but you guys are extremly bad in helping here....of course we are in a recesion...but you know what...the next one will come as well and after that a new one will come. So what??? Best is you get out of aviation if you can not encourage someone.

Anyway...merry christmas to all

m737

[mukoba737]

Sorry...I did not read the whole thread before sending a reply.

Look, I am trying to liase with some freshmen who are in the same position as myself. I have a 737NG rating and without hours, you know very well, that jobs are far away. I need some hours like some guys here as well.

Despite some of you saying that I ruin the job possibilities for other by considering a line training, I have seen some guys here simply demolishing dreams and efforts of guys like myself...and so, I am just trying it my way, despite what others say. I have researched enough and have been actively talikng to guys in various position for more than a year. I have had phone bills being 4000 Euro in one month, simply because I called several HR departments, Ops Managers, MDs, Career advisers and chief pilots, fleetmanagers, etc.

I have made my choice and I hope people having so much hate in them ... I will hopefully never ever fly with...cause that is what makes me scared...to have such a FO or Captain.

To all you others which are great Ppruners, I hope you will get what you are looking for despite the economic situation.

Pls...once again I ask for help, if anyone knows a line training company in switzerland, please do private message me as I have a few but I am looking for a specific one that is family run.

thanks and great christmas to you.

m737

[Ianpilot]

I am new to my training, just opened my Jeppesen private pilots manual for the first time less than a month ago (don't laugh, we all have to start somewhere) and even I know that the outlook for ANY flying job is bad at best! :ugh:
I am just happy that I have the deal of a lifetime on training costs, and have lots of practice at being poor, because i am sure it will be a long time before i get my first flying job.
Nobody wants to hire a pilot with the minimum skills and time in the air to get a license. Getting more hours in the air, staying current on qualifications, and further training will cost money on top of more money. It could very well end up i never get hired, but i am still going to go for it because i love flying!! Even if i never found a flying job it is going to be a great learning experience.
I was told by a friend "If you learn to fly for the money, you're in the wrong field. if you would fly for the love of flying, getting paid is a bonus!" :ok:

good luck to everyone!!!

[waqas]

hey every1,


Can some1 plz tell me its better to go for air bus 320 rating after finishing CPL


Thankx

[747TDR]

After finishing CPL?

It's better to do a University Degree!

Unless you have spare wads of cash laying around and wanna fly the 320 for fun!

:ugh:

[dawsonj1]

Hey guys I'm new to this online forum business so forgive me if I'm putting my post in the wrong place.

Basically just finished all my flight training with approx 210 hours and was wondering what the general opinion was on keeping current in the way of flying; i.e. I was planning on trying to keep my instrument skills fresh with about an hour in an FNPTII per month and an hour or so actual flying on a single or multi if money permits!

Would just be interested in what other people in the same boat think is reasonable for the time being whilst we all wait for better times?

Thanks, James.

[Journey Man]

@dawsonj1

I would save money and just do the hours in an aircraft/sim before your renewal. I had two years waiting for my first flying job, so have been through this and here's my advice.

With 200 hours, I challenge anyone to say they could happily jump back into an aircraft and fly well after a long break. At 200 hours, we just don't have the depth of experience to draw from to feel comfortable after a long break. Keep practising your instrument skills on Flight Sim, practice holds, intercepts, etc. Get a decent twin model and put the display on just the instruments. Practice the instrument procedures so that they're second nature (use 8168 to check you're practicing good habits), then you only have to re-adjust to being in an aircraft, which is where most of your concentration will go after such a big lay off. You need to be comfortable to successfully complete an ME/IR especially at unfamiliar airports, and here's where FS can help again. I'm not sure a commercial flight sim will bring you many more benefit than FS - and FS is considerably cheaper. If you have a friend who's in the same boat, get together and one flies, one gives ATC. I know this sounds terrible geeky, but you get out what you put in and a professional attitude can achieve the same result as sitting in a commercial sim with a recently qualified FI. You've done the IR, you know the procedures. :ok:

If it's your first renewal you can do a renewal in the sim. I've never been to Bristol, but they seemed very switched on and helpful last time I spoke with them. If it's not an initial renewal, then you need to get up and budget to do one or two hours with an instructor before your test. I'd bunch the hours up into the pre-test period rather than doing an hour here and there. And getting in the air again can help you realise why you're hanging tough for that first job. Helps the sanity no end...!

Good luck with it

[Journey Man]

advice plz
hey every1,


Can some1 plz tell me its better to go for air bus 320 rating after finishing CPL


Thankx

No. No. And no. You must cast your net wider and do type ratings in A320, 737 and 757/767. Don't forget to get hours packages on all three. (You might even be able to negotiate a discount as you're doing more than one type rating...)

Welcome to the New World of Aviation!

[A330ETOPS]

I agree that this is one of the only ways to get a first job at present, but only for them who have the cash! Such a shame that only them with money are able to pursue a career in aviation at the minute. I'm from a working class family who have done all they can to help me fund my atpl(f), and unfortunately there is nothing else i can do now as i have no more money and will not be able to get any further loans until all of my 4 loans taken out for flight training are paid off in 8 years time

[Journey Man]

I agree that this is one of the only ways to get a first job at present.

Not so, there are jobs, people are being taken on although if the only job people want is airline then you are probably right. TP and charter jobs are out there.

[turbotone]

Where are the charter jobs?

[Sassy91]

i really enjoyed reading this thread. my first time posting on this website and thread, iv always read but never posted. anyways... what the experienced pilots are telling us wannabees is forget about pilot training and go find a 9-5 job. am i right?
so what happens when all the 10000hr captains retire? they cant fly forever. how many jobs will that open up? 1 long haul captain retires, a FO is promoted to his job, a domestic pilot gets the FO job, a turbo prop pilots gets promoted to the big airlines, a charter pilots gets a job with the regional airline and then somewhere a fresh CPL wannabee gets his first job! thats 5 jobs right there from only 1 captain retiring! i know there are thousands unemployed but thats not forever! those numbers will thin out and there will be jobs once again.
thats just my 2 cents, first post,
but i could be wrong...im just a wannabe

[ToneTheWone]

Nice try Sassy but one retirement means one opportunity at the bottom of the ladder. If it were only true that one job turns into 5 we'd all be in work.

And sorry Journey Man, if you think there are jobs in the charter market - and by that I take it you mean biz jets etc.- then take it from me that that market has been hit harder than the airlines. Sad but true:(

[Sassy91]

well mate i meant 5 jobs in the big picture. but i guess you are right. im off to find a meaningless job then...

[ToneTheWone]

My advice would be to get a trade/profession, earn some money and if you really want to fly, take your time, afterall you do that on your side. Timing is everything in this game but make sure you have something to fall back on. I didn't get my first paid flying job till I was 38. 46 now with 2200 hours, TP and jet experience but nothing out there. Bt the time things pick up I'll be too old, so l think my flying days are through. But at least I do have other skills I can rely on.

Good luck whatever you do:ok:

[Sassy91]

i know i know. but what i get from this thread is that there aren`t gonna be anymore jobs, the proffession is not open to new comers, there is enough pilots for the rest of time etc etc
i do have plans to fall back on but if i give up flying it wont be easy looking at pilots and thinking "wish i had stayed with my flying. could have been me in that seat." and im not talking about just airline flying.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Sadly Sassy you are in a particularly desperate situation,

You're writing from a country that financially assists the training costs for many aspiring pilots. Something the UK and Euro wannabees often dream of.

The actual result though is that you qualify and (generally) become an instructor.

Each instructor needs a number of students to survive. Which means attracting more students, usually by loudly touting the financial assistance. Who in turn become instructors - who need students.

And so it goes on - a giant pyramid swollen by 'demand' at the very bottom of pro aviation.

There is no significant demand from the top end of the industry in NZ resulting in bloated GA ranks scrabbling to make a minimal living.

In my part of aviation I work with New Zealanders who simply can never work in their own homeland - well, perhaps as an instructor:ugh:

Rob

[Sassy91]

yes you are right. but the govt is really thinking of cutting off the student loan scheme for pilots, because a interest free 100k loan sure is attractive. its too late for me to turn back now. iv already invested 30k or something into it. so quitting now will just be a waste of so much money. but im paying for pretty much half of the whole training myself with my part time job which pays decently, thank goodnes.

[Journey Man]

And sorry Journey Man, if you think there are jobs in the charter market - and by that I take it you mean biz jets etc.- then take it from me that that market has been hit harder than the airlines. Sad but true
Not biz jets, perhaps lower your sights? There is MTP and MEP work out there.

[ecso]

Check this out: Wizz Air (http://wizzair.com/career/pilots/)

[belongins]

Get back in your cardboard box DJ and get that buger flipping action honed - i think we're gonna need it son :) hahahaha

[zak1983]

back to my old job after getting my IR, but nevertheless applications to airlines will be made! :ugh:

when are the professionals predicting times will get better? (im off the so called integrated course what a waste in hindsight, modular route would have been better!):confused:

[Photon85]

I was contemplating posting a new topic, but I think I'll just join the crowd here and post my situation / questions.

I started training in August 2007, when people were leaving and getting jobs with as few hours as 200, it all seemed so nice and sparkly, but alas, it was the top of the proverbial roller-coaster, and it all came crashing down.

At the moment I'm working as a flight instructor in Florida, and I've also seen what the times have done to the outflow and influx where I work.
There has basically been no outflow of instructors at all in our school for the last 1.5 years or so, all the senior instructors have stayed put, because there is no where else to go. No matter if one has ATP and 2000 hours.
The students keep on coming, though in a diminished rate, but what I see now, is something that kind of looks like a slow change in the trend. Maybe we have reached the low part of this roller-coaster, and we're ever so slowly changing the vertical speed?

In the last few months many of the senior instructors have been at interviews, and just lately several of them has left school to go work with corporate, freight and even regional airlines.
Maybe some light at the end of the tunnel? I'm no Nostradamus, so I won't preach the second coming, but still, as I'm stuck here, I can at least save a glimmer of hope :)

Now, onto myself. I'm preparing to leave Florida, and return home to Northern Europe. I'll be leaving with a FAA CPL-Single/Multi/IR, CFI-Single/Multi/IR, and about 800 hours, of them about only 70 hours multi.
In October/November, I reckon I will have my JAA CPL/ME/IR + Frozen ATPL + MCC.

I'm not tied down anywhere, so I'm willing to go to anyone who is willing to offer me a job flying anything with two wings and 1+ engines anywhere in the world.
What I'm not willing to do is pay someone to kill the profession AKA Ryanair or the likes.
I Understand that SSTR is starting to become more of the trend, but I wont sell my soul to pay for line training or any other idiocy like that (I will pay for a type rating if there's a genuine GOOD job offer at the end of the rope though).

Thankfully I have made some friends working over here, with some students seeded around in places like Korea, Nigeria etc, I'm hoping that little Network will pay me back, and I can work anywhere as long as its not extremely hazardous.

Am I in for a long wait as well, or what are your guys' expert opinion?

[Rotorhead80]

WHAT A BUNCH OF RETARDED RESPONSES TO SOMEONE JUST ASKING FOR ADVICE!!:mad:

[tobes]

well said www

[Anonymus6]

was contemplating posting a new topic, but I think I'll just join the crowd here and post my situation / questions.

I started training in August 2007, when people were leaving and getting jobs with as few hours as 200, it all seemed so nice and sparkly, but alas, it was the top of the proverbial roller-coaster, and it all came crashing down.

At the moment I'm working as a flight instructor in Florida, and I've also seen what the times have done to the outflow and influx where I work.
There has basically been no outflow of instructors at all in our school for the last 1.5 years or so, all the senior instructors have stayed put, because there is no where else to go. No matter if one has ATP and 2000 hours.
The students keep on coming, though in a diminished rate, but what I see now, is something that kind of looks like a slow change in the trend. Maybe we have reached the low part of this roller-coaster, and we're ever so slowly changing the vertical speed?

In the last few months many of the senior instructors have been at interviews, and just lately several of them has left school to go work with corporate, freight and even regional airlines.
Maybe some light at the end of the tunnel? I'm no Nostradamus, so I won't preach the second coming, but still, as I'm stuck here, I can at least save a glimmer of hope http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Now, onto myself. I'm preparing to leave Florida, and return home to Northern Europe. I'll be leaving with a FAA CPL-Single/Multi/IR, CFI-Single/Multi/IR, and about 800 hours, of them about only 70 hours multi.
In October/November, I reckon I will have my JAA CPL/ME/IR + Frozen ATPL + MCC.

I'm not tied down anywhere, so I'm willing to go to anyone who is willing to offer me a job flying anything with two wings and 1+ engines anywhere in the world.
What I'm not willing to do is pay someone to kill the profession AKA Ryanair or the likes.
I Understand that SSTR is starting to become more of the trend, but I wont sell my soul to pay for line training or any other idiocy like that (I will pay for a type rating if there's a genuine GOOD job offer at the end of the rope though).

Thankfully I have made some friends working over here, with some students seeded around in places like Korea, Nigeria etc, I'm hoping that little Network will pay me back, and I can work anywhere as long as its not extremely hazardous.

Am I in for a long wait as well, or what are your guys' expert opinion?

you will be unemployed with approximately 400 pilots fighting for an FO position in Norway. Good luck,,,they dont like US flight time here in northern Europe.

[Photon85]

Did you read my post?
Where did it say I was gonna try fighting for a job in Norway?

To be honest, in the beginning I don't care if I work in Africa, Asia or anywhere in Europe when I start out.
Sure, I would want a job closer to home eventually, but I understand that the current market is total crap, and I don't have any illusions about getting my first "real" job in Northern Europe

[lander66]

Photon85,

It's very good that you want to avoid SSTR because of the principle of it, but can you really afford to eliminate a job at a company such as ryanair completely? They are in many peoples' eyes the main source of airline jobs. Fair enough if you can't afford it but if you can shouldn't you at least consider it? I am not having a go, just curious...

Its good that you are willing to work anywhere in the world and as long as you have the right contacts it should work out eventually. I am just a wannabe so don't trust my advice, just wanted to stick my nose in. :ok:

[glag]

I totally agree with Photon85. Will not take out one more penny to fly. Not as long as the market will offer something with a little more dignity than a contract for the summertime, or few months more, sending you at home after that.
Thing is that the aviation market is dead and the job of pilot as well. Things will get worse with time and with the increasing number of freaks who will pay to fly. This is becoming a caste and rumors that the market wil pick up again in my opinion is driven by administrations and lobbies with all the interest to get our money out of the wallet. Let's keep flying guys, but do not expect to get paid for it.:=

[Mikebert4]

Some people are being very sensible here and giving good advice to someone who, like me, is very worried about their prospects post-training.

I too my time and thought ahead enough to get tagged through training, unfortunately like so many, that tag has diminished from a "we have a record of taking on 100% of our tagged students" into "we can't afford to take anyone on" and so, I'm in the same spot as many.

Networking, getting your name out there and keeping on slogging it seems to be the only hope we ab-initio ~200 hours lot have. There are jobs out there, and people are getting employed, though it's in teeny tiny dribbles.

Good advice is not 'you're screwed, pay for Ryanair or GTFO', that's unhelpful. I doubt there's a single pilot fresh out of training that isn't aware of the Ranair route. I for one can't go that route. I can just about save myself from bankrupcy at the moment but if I fork out another £30k for a maybe-job, if I don't get it I'm definately going under. Like so many, this means the security on the loan will be repossessed, and currently that would be my Father's house.

Risks are not an option.

Sure if you can afford to go the Ryanair route then worst case is you'll have more hours and a rating. For those of us who can't afford to make that leap on a chance any and all advice is welcome. Any and all avenues are chased down, all contacts possible are made and kept.

At the end of the day, someone needs pilots somewhere and whereas it might be completely different from what you wanted or expected, it'll be something.

The only advice I can give to all my fellows in my situation is: Keep slogging it, don't loose heart and it'll come about somehow, someday.

[markp123]

Im currently part way through my training, hour building and ATPL theory complete. Was all ready to commence the rest of my training but have decided to put it on hold for a while, simply because the prospect of a job at the end of it is next to nothing.

Waiting to hear back from a couple of sponsorship opportunities, but I am definitely not hold my breath with regards to those. I am looking for any job at the moment just to earn myself as much cash as I can get. If I havn't heard anything from said sponsorships by the end of this year I will fund myself through the rest of the training and then apply for the GAPAN flight instructor sponsorship, and if I was lucky enough to get that, hopefully find some work that way.

As has been mentioned, things have got to pick up at some point. Personally, I won't be paying the likes of Ryanair for a TR! :)

[turbine100]

When I finished training 3 years ago I managed to got some part-time single pilot work and went back to my proper job.

Applied to Ryanair and never heard anything too . Had friends who joined and get paid well, one also mentioned the tax side and getting some of the TR costs back. If I ever had the chance I would have gone to the interview to find out more.

Looked at CTC ATP / Flexicrew schemes.Decided they were a bad idea due to hold pools, 6 month contracts and kept the money in the bank. I am sure they are better when things are going well but no point spending money.

Hopefully next few years it will pick up again :)

[initial vector]

In regards to Ryanair it's just the sheer price of it.
I mean, they want 27500 euros for the training, and all other expenses on top of that again, probably making it like 28-29 000 when you're all done.

Unless things have changes over the past few years, I believe you might get the Norwegian unemployment office to help you with those costs!
A Danish friend of mine used the Danish Unemployment office to fund his first typerating...
This would only work if you are guaranteed a job once the rating has been purchased.

Let society help put you in the drivers' seat! They are the ones currently profiting the most of our situation... :(

[Dave_t6]

I have wanted to become an airline pilot for over a decade and after working hard to achieve a good education the methods of getting into the profession are disgraceful! That being said the thought of working in an office or trade for the rest of my time isn't appealing either.

I have seen some good advice on this thread, there are so many rumours going around about the big FTO's i was wondering if there are any cadets that have graduated that have any advice.

Has anyone come out of CTC, FTE or OAA with a job offer that doesn't require a self sponsored type rating?

Putting up another £15-20,000 towards a Ryan air type rating would be out of my reach and I would not consider training if that was the only route.

Even the CTC wings cadet scheme that start with Easy jet, they pay around £8,000 towards the type rating and then the rest comes out of their earnings. Are you still able to pay off your loan, (650p/m) while working for Easy? Or working for Flexicrew?

Any advice is useful.
I hear that international traffic volumes are returning quite quickly and that the large carriers are taking on a number of pilots next year, which should free up some space for low hour FO's.

Good luck, Stay strong!!

[bobbydazzler84]

Hi Guys/Gals,

With regards to the CTC Wings scheme, does anyone know how much candidates need to pay towards the type ratings these days?

Also the bonding arrangement at CTC wings is such that if you join a participating airline your bond is drip fed back into your salary over a number of years. Does anyone know which CTC partner airlines undertake this arrangment?

[skykid01]

I just finished my Integrated JAA frozen ATPL course, which includes CPL license, Multi engine instument rating and MCC course. Total 160 flying hours. what's next ? what do I have to do now to get a job at an airline company ?... I don't want to join the rest of the list of people sitting at home sending CV's to airlines hoping they could get some answer although already knowing that they will never get anything.

[FlyingStone]

You absolutely have to pay yourself a type rating and a minimum of 500 hours of line training, although I would recommend 1000 - just to be sure. Don't care about those who tell you to write CVs or meet people, connected into aviation - just pay for rating and line training and you're in - simple as that.

[skykid01]

Thank you for your time FlyingStone. Do you think it is a safe option to choose that ?... I already looked around for that type of schemes and I even contacted Pegasus Airlines, but they say that there won't be any course starting untill the end of this year, and I also heard that eagle jet was having some problems trying to arrange airlines for their students to do the line training phase. Do you know some other company which can give some guaranties relating to how much would I fly per month, or any other safe company to enroll for a type rating and line training ?. Best Regards

[Jerry Lee]

Man, I don't like it, but is sadly true. Anyway, I think I will only pay for the TR.

[dirk85]

Jesus.

I'm speechless.

Click here (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=sarcasm&l=1)

[Pick me Flybe!]

Q) what do I do next

Month 1 after ME/IR :) "cant wait to start using this blue licence"

Month 3 after ME/IR :O "Im sure an airline will phone soon"

Month 6 after ME/IR :confused: "Why hasnt anyone responded"

Month 6 plus 1 day after ME/IR :eek: £1200 a month loan repayment....S**T

Month 9 after ME/IR :ooh: "How much for a Ryanair Type Rating"

Month 11 after ME/IR :) "Flybe Called"

Month 11 plus 1 day after ME/IR :( Flybe wont hire me because i dont have 50 hours in the last 12 months!

Month 12 after ME/IR :{ ME/IR has Expired :uhoh: £1500 to renew ME/IR

Month 13 after ME/IR :ugh: "What the hell was i thinking becoming a pilot!"

[M33]

Excellent, at least you got a call from flybe! how did you manage that? ohh to be in the position to get called by an airline.

2 years and still hoping, building hrs ok instructing and air charter light twin, but around other work, as flying doesnt pay the bills.

[NzCaptainAndrew]

when did you start flying?

[FlyingSerb]

Nice post Flybe!
Feel the same way!

[jpointer123]

I joined this forum as a starry eyed wannabe a few days ago looking to seek advice on how to become a pilot (in my case the earliest is about 2018 after uni). After 30 mins of going through threads, i actually felt a slap in the face. yes recruitment may pick up in 3 years or so (just when easyjet and FR start to slow down), but surely you only have to watch the news (not BALPA's claim of a pilot shortage) to realise that this is a s**t time to throw away £80,000 when there is absolutely nothing afterwards. thankyou PPRuNe for slapping me round the face, and if I do decide to pursue a flying career, ill make sure I have a very (probably more cushy) plan B.

[turbine100]

jpointer123, your right. Perhaps do a PPL with a few ratings and a share in a plane.

Then you have a proper paying career and a good hobby without being screwed like many others. Saying that, the schools are selling courses and many going into aviation do not always know it can take years to get a proper paying job.

I have been flying 10 years and 2 years ago completed all my commercial / IR training etc. Could not get any work, stayed in my previous career and fly commercially part-time whilst waiting for a full time position which may take another 2 - 4 years to clear through.

You will also find companies like EZY have contracts with CTC and its near impossible to apply for a job directly to a operator.

Generally speaking, it was the same when EZY were offering perm jobs through CTC a few years ago. So such companies would feed their cadets in via such contracts between companies and no one else would have a chance a applying directly with no experience to EZY.

Another example is Ryanair, you apply via Oxfords SAE or CAE Amsterdam and hopefully meet the correct profile.

Their's suppose to be a looming pilot shortage. Their is no shortage of pilots, its going to be a shortage of pilots not type rated and experienced. So really it will be a a lack of pilots being able to pay for a type rating to gain employment if more experienced guys leave for the Middle east, Asia and emerging Chinese market place in the next few years.

If more people said no to type ratings or PTF scheme's, operators accountants and commercial decision makers would have to do something and start paying for training or bonding and offering better T&C's to be able crew their aircraft :)

Sadly companies like CTC have spoiled it for all over the past 10 years regarding T&C's or for those like myself who want to apply to an airline directly.

Lastly, you often hear of the impending retirements and need for recruitment, that has been mentioned prior to recession and some of us are still waiting to see that happen. Hopefully in a few years it will, but we are still waiting for it :)

[LeHefe]

Hi folks,

I guess there's lots of this kind of threads as we all know. I just wanted to start a new one because I can't see it doing any harm.

Anyway, I'm in a situation where I can't find a job even though my situation is kinda happy as I've got no loan. I started doing my PPL at 2006 when industry was booming and airlines were advertising jobs in local newspapers etc. (Put here some cheesy stuff how I always wanted to be a pilot and fly. Yeah we all did and still do) I sold my flat and borrowed a bit money from my relatives and left to UK as I was told it's THE BEST place train and UK-license is THE MOST known around the world. I guess I was average in groundschool (+90% average), one-stop CPL/IR, first time pass IR and so on. Yeah, like it really matters I look at it now.

Then comes the recession, ashclouds, Greece, Ireland you name it. Let's try to find a job. I polish my CV for a week to make it look as good as possible and start applying. Conclusion; Europe is loaded by unemployed pilots. I send more than 100 CV's (still counting) and get nothing but negatives. I read (actually I was aware of this years ago) Asia is desperately lacking pilots? I do a bit research and it seems to be +1500h for F/O position pretty much everywhere. I still send loads of applications but no reply. Next continent - Africa. All the jobs seem to go to nationals or then there's some other corrupted shait going on. Let's still send some applications. Bush flying, cargo, anything I can find. No answer. I know that as a market Africa is a bit different but I'm not going to Maun. I thought about it but don't have a chance for it at the moment. So what's left? North-America, Latin-America, Australia, Middle-East and Japan are out of reach. Russia - not really. And that's about it. No jobs anywhere. I start thinking about FI-rating but these jobs are rare as well. And seriously I believe it will take lot's of time these days to build your hours by instructing PPL's.

Thing is that I couldn't care less which aircraft type it would be. Single, twin, jet, prop, glider. I'd just like to have a J-O-B but there isn't one. Well, to be honest few of my fellow students got jobs and are flying jets now. All of them through P2F schemes or Ryanair = same thing. I know one guy who was nicely said "unsuitable" for as a pilot but there he is on right hand seat of A320 and just because of the fat wallet. I don't want to sound bitter because I'm not (or maybe I am) but this guy was just as arrogant and cocky as a man can be and there he is flying tube full of 150 passengers. Have I thought about these P2F schemes myself? I have but it's just a bit against my morale and more than that financially out of reach.

So what's the point of this post? I don't know. Therapy? Kill some time? Just to moan? Well I don't really want to sound like moaning. I'm quite positive I will find a job at some point. I am happy that I did it and glad that I chose modular way instead of integrated which would have taken me in the sea of debts. When I was reading this forum few years ago and trying to decide where to train and how I didn't care of the negative comments about the industry. I just wanted to do it and fly, that simple. Worry later I thought. Well here we go. From that perspective I can understand people starting their training now. But if I can give any advice to people considering flying as a career these days think twice. Forget about the bull***t of pilot shortage and false FTO marketing. Don't do it now unless you have some really good connections or rich parents. Seriously.

And if there's any people who got a job outside P2F/Ryanair or cadet schemes raise your hands and tell me how you did it!

PS. Try to bear the typos. English isn't my first language.

[milanius]

What an honest and amazing post... Man, I wish you all the best, hopefully something should come up soon
for you and all the other guys in the queue...

Me, just finished PPL, preparing to leave my daily job that is bringing me multiple thousands of pounds per month
(the job which I, of course, don't like, but which helped me save some cash for the training), and get my self on the way to ATPL.
At least, i won't have some loan to think about later...

I prefer doing it no matter what, rather then regreting later in my life for not at least trying....

cheers

[Wrightflyer1]

Aer Lingus: About Us - Direct Entry First Officer (http://www.aerlingus.com/aboutus/careersvacancies/directentryfirstofficer/#d.en.6299)

but u probably knew this anyway. keep the chin up

[stealth114]

Hey Guys... Just wanted to chime in... I have been lurking for some time and not been on the forum in 2 years when becoming a pilot was merely a twinkle in my eye .. Did my first discovery flight in 2009 Oct.. then got sold on it.. Went to the flight school of my choice in FL of May 2010 this year and did my PPL, Instrument and last week just done my CPL. I be heading back up shortly to complete the multi engine rating.

Its good to be here and share the same experience with many other entry level newly minted pilots. It is a very unreal feeling but I have resolved and anticipated this even before I even got into flight training. If I dont make flying into a career , I am fine. I have resolved to it being the most fantastic journey ever. That's not to say Im giving up and not persevering. I am back now to looking for a regular non flying job. I am an aeronautical engineer my qualification, worked as an aircraft technician and also a certified personal fitness trainer.

Despite my passion for airplanes, Im not sure why it took me so long for that bug to bite me to learn to fly. I just thought it be something that was way out of my reach after forking out and paying my way to Uni in the UK. As a kid, I will be at the terminal and seeing the big jets arrive and all these tall pilots in their uniform walking pass. It just never did occur to me and said "Thats gonna be me one day " despite all my family saying they saw it coming some time in my life...

To all the new guys with their CPL's I wish you the best of luck and to never give up. I am in the same boat and Im doing the same. In my country, there are over 200 new commercial pilots just sitting and waiting and hoping. I dont want to be another statistic. Its driving me to not be that way. So Im driven to resume a well paying non flying job to help me continue to build hours etc, look for single engine prop operators doing aerial tours etc. and network network network with as many active pilots as possible both locally and abroad.

In all common sense , I never once envisaged to be stepping into a jet when Im fresh out of flight training. It just insane to even think that I be stepping out of a Cessna and seeing the big metal right away . No way! There is a reason for this! I expect to earn my way up and being on that jet will be the zenith of my career.

[stealth114]

I see so many here talking about paying your way to a Type Rating... Can u ellaborate on this .. If I know my company was hiring first officers on the Dash 8 - Q300.. Does this mean, I pay my way to a Flight Safety centre and do the type rating on the sim, pass the check ride and then pay for some actual hours on the Type or is this flight sim time we are talking bout ? And if I may ask, whats the cost of that.. I knew a flight attendant who went up and did her type training right after. Thats gotta be insanely costly I will imagine ? Off course, this is no guarantee of getting the job and goes against paying to build hours.. But God, I will pay to build some hours, especially multi engine time... Right now, my main goal is to get to that 500 hour mark but if I can pay for 100 hours of multi engine time, that be quality time. So many here in the Caribbean utilise the DHC- 6 Twin Otters.. if I was to get my type rating on that, it may be of an advantage over some pilots who dont have it.

[PERJ]

Q) what do I do next

Month 1 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif "cant wait to start using this blue licence"

Month 3 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif "Im sure an airline will phone soon"

Month 6 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif "Why hasnt anyone responded"

Month 6 plus 1 day after ME/IR :eek: £1200 a month loan repayment....S**T

Month 9 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif "How much for a Ryanair Type Rating"

Month 11 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif "Flybe Called"

Month 11 plus 1 day after ME/IR :( Flybe wont hire me because i dont have 50 hours in the last 12 months!

Month 12 after ME/IR :{ ME/IR has Expired http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif £1500 to renew ME/IR

Month 13 after ME/IR :ugh: "What the hell was i thinking becoming a pilot!"

Month 14 after ME/IR :E A TR on a b737 will get me that job! To the bank!

Month 17 after ME/IR :( TR wasnt enough, but my friends and family expect me to become an airline pilot like I said I would!

Month 18 after ME/IR :rolleyes: 25.000 USD plus cost of living doesnt sound to bad at all for 500 hours on the b737! After that I will be home free.

Month 25 after ME/IR :eek: They kicked me out after my hours were done! Now Im screwed and the bank wants some money too. Still no one wants me!

Month 26 after ME/IR ;) Fortunately I can tell everyone that I'm a temporary out of job AIRLINE PILOT!! Wuhuu...

[Pozhoga]

My thoughts exactly. I'm 18 and I started paying for my own training in here in the U.S. at the beginning of 2010. I pay out of pocket for my training as a dishwasher and I'm about halfway to getting my PPL. I too understand that having 1500 hours with an ATPL is a minimal amount of experience that can be "considered" as marketable.

I plan on obtaining my CPL/IR/ME with a CFI license within the next 4 years(debt free).

[PapaNovGolf]

Very glad to be pursuing my PPL as a recreational thing and not a career path. Sad to hear so many similar tales about financial pressures etc. All true. Just wonder why it has to be this expensive at the end of the day, after all's said and done. :hmm:

[stealth114]

Cost of fuel, aircraft rental, instructor fees. Cheap thing no good :)

[mrharr1s]

Good evening everyone.

I have read alot of the posts on this forum with intrigue - it also shows a real change in mentality from the first post to the end post and you can almost taste the frustration of some of the earlier posts where the recession was really hitting home.

Me? I'm standing at the beginning of the road -
I have a certificate for the Pilot Training College upstairs inviting me onto an Integrated Airline Training Program.
I have the necessary funding to get the training costs.
I have listened to the recruiter 'spiel' from the college handouts and consultants, confirming 18500 pilots are needed annually over the next 20 years.
I have been watching the news and taken on board some reports from the BBC regarding Boeing's report on recruitment of over 1/2 million new pilots to meet demand, with passenger traffic rising 9.2% this july compared to last year - and also regarding the unfair costing for type ratings and an outcry to make things fairer for pilots before people stop seeing the pilot as a viable career path.

I have provisionally booked myself onto September this year to start my training, I would then be out at the beginning of 2013.

I am not trying to get ahead of myself, but from analysis of what I hope are facts I thought that my dream of becoming a pilot may possibly be realised.

I really want to trust an organisation with vast amounts of my money even if they do not guarantee me a job at the end of it - but I see people talking about CTC on here but not much about the Pilot Training College - has anyone experienced this college here?

I try to see past the smokescreen of optimistic facts and professional businessmen from the cadet schools but it is starting to get hard to ignore the feeling that by the time 2013 comes around, we might be (I do stress the might be) heading back to what it was like at the beginning of the 21st century.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

Thanks

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The salesman trying to entice you into an Integrated course of flying training is someone you, in time, will come to view in a very negative light. Personally I love meeting these people and just wish I had more free time to pursue it as a hobby.

You are prey.

Wannabes are prey to a large flying training industry who are pimped out to the massive airline industry.

At every level those involved know that they are tainted. They just shrug and blame market forces and thank God that it was different when they went through. Then they cheerfully screw Wannabes as hard as they think they can get away with. Which is pretty hard. But Wannabes keep queuing up so the screwing will just keep getting harder. When the supply stops then the wannabe blow-jobs will begin.


WWW

[captainsuperstorm]

I have listened to the recruiter 'spiel' from the college handouts and consultants, confirming 18500 pilots are needed annually over the next 20 years


wrong, it s 18501 pilots.

I can confirm as well that 2012 is the end of the world....

you will be less naive when with your CPL in pocket and NO job!

[darkroomsource]

Q) what do I do next

Month 1 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif "cant wait to start using this blue licence"

Month 3 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif "Im sure an airline will phone soon"

Month 6 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif "Why hasnt anyone responded"

Month 6 plus 1 day after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif £1200 a month loan repayment....S**T

Month 9 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif "How much for a Ryanair Type Rating"

Month 11 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif "Flybe Called"

Month 11 plus 1 day after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif Flybe wont hire me because i dont have 50 hours in the last 12 months!

Month 12 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif ME/IR has Expired http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif £1500 to renew ME/IR

Month 13 after ME/IR :ugh: "What the hell was i thinking becoming a pilot!" Month 14 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif A TR on a b737 will get me that job! To the bank!

Month 17 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif TR wasnt enough, but my friends and family expect me to become an airline pilot like I said I would!

Month 18 after ME/IR :rolleyes: 25.000 USD plus cost of living doesnt sound to bad at all for 500 hours on the b737! After that I will be home free.

Month 25 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif They kicked me out after my hours were done! Now Im screwed and the bank wants some money too. Still no one wants me!

Month 26 after ME/IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif Fortunately I can tell everyone that I'm a temporary out of job AIRLINE PILOT!! Wuhuu...

Month 32 after ME/IR, just got hired, doing publicity and marketing for a major flight school.

It turns out there is a pilot shortage after all...

[Poeli]

WWW, the problem over here is that someone with an average job simply can't afford to fly as much as he/she wants to fly for a hobby. I heard that there are a lot of people here in Belgium who fly only <15hrs a year with their PPL.

To be honest, I'd love to be an engineer (which I'm studying), live in a southern country and fly as a hobby, but then I want to be sure I can afford it.
Maybe this is different in other European countries, because in Belgium we have one of the highest taxes in the world. I don't know.

[Axe2Grind]

Reading threads on this forum for a number of years now, WWW i'm curious, were you bullied by a 'Wannabe' airline pilot when you were a tipsy nipper?

Best.
Wannabe Zombie Army member
"...oh, look at you with your four epaulettes."