Inventory of British Military Helicopters

[rogerk]

This is the list the Gordon Brown says he knows nothing about !!

Where British helicopters are stationed

Chinooks

Total 40 in fleet

10 in Helmand

29 in Hampshire

8 to be sent to Helmand

1 being used in an exercise

Pumas

43 in fleet

None in Afghanistan

Merlins

Total 70 in the fleet

None yet in Afghanistan

8 to be sent to Afghanistan

Sea Kings

Total 90 in the fleet

5 in Afghanistan

Apaches

Total 67 in the fleet

8 in Afghanistan

Lynx

Total 176 in the fleet

None in Afghanistan

Gazelles

Total 133 in the fleet

None in Afghanistan

Other

Total 47 in the fleet

None in Afghanistan

:=:=

[Torque Tonight]

So the plan for Chinnies is, out of 40 frames, 37 on det, 1 on exercise, presumably leaving 2 for rects and deep maintenance, aircrew training (OCF and continuation training / currency), routine UK tasking, national standby etc etc. Can't see those figures adding up.

Global superpower miltary aspirations on a Vatican City defence budget.:mad:

[teeteringhead]

And we haven't even got the smart Vatican uniforms ......;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Vatican_guard.jpg/400px

[spheroid]

I think that there are more than 5 Sea Kings in A'Stan. There are 3 Mk 7's for a start....How many Mk 4's are there?

[serf]

133 Gazelles..................?

[spheroid]

Im not sure that any of those figures are correct..... They all seem a little high. Its the active fleet that you should be looking at ...not the total. In the active fleet we don't have 176 Lynx for instance.

[Postman Plod]

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | MoD uses 'cut and shut' chopper (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8157265.stm)

Am I alone in wondering exactly what the problem here is? Is a "cut and shut" chinook really a problem? Seems to me to be good use of resource!

[Two's in]

...and most definitely not 67 Apaches, unless you want to count the world's most expensive air-conditioned spares kits in the world.

[matelo99]

Only 2 baggers in Afghan at the moment. A few more than 5 Mk4's in theatre. Certainly don't think we've got 90 Mk4's in the fleet to send out. think realistically it's more like 30. not all of them are at a mk4+ standard.

[chinook240]

Am I alone in wondering exactly what the problem here is? Is a "cut and shut" chinook really a problem? Seems to me to be good use of resource!

ZA704 lost its aft plyon during an accident in Oman, not an engine, always lends credibility to a story to have the facts right. Being an original Mk 1, its airframe was essentially a C model and as Boeing didn't make that airframe structure anymore, the easiest repair was to use the frames from another C model- the ex-Argentinian one.

No scandal, we have one more Chinny than we would have otherwise, it flies just like the rest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS Where did RogerK get those figures from - the Observers Book of Aircraft?

[Torque Tonight]

Whilst I sympathise with the deceased soldier and his family, the BBC Chinook story has no relevance whatsoever to his case. Whilst the Argie/Brit combo is true, they speak of the aircraft as if it has been welded together in some dodgy backstreet garage. Would anyone really believe such garbage - no doubt the tabloids will as soon as they get a whiff of it.

[Jackonicko]

Only SH are relevant here, and the figures include the grey Merlins, Lynxes, etc, SAR aircraft and trainers.

They are not inventory of SH figures.

And as someone said, Forward Fleet (defined as aircraft which are serviceable and those which are short term unserviceable - eg aircraft undergoing minor works, forward maintenance or unforeseen rectification work) is more useful.

And more useful still is the fit for purpose figure - eg those aircraft that are serviceable and available to JHC for operational and training purposes. The Fit for Purpose figure varies from day to day, but is always (obviously) less than the Forward figure

I don't have a Commando SK4/6CR set of figures, but the figures below were publicly released.

Inventory Forward
Chinook HC2/A: 40 29
Merlin HC3/3A: 28 19
Puma: 34 25

What this means is that 10 of 29 (not 40) Chinooks are in Helmand, and that 8 more are to be sent!
8 of 19 Merlins are to be sent to Helmand.

These aren't bad percentages of the Forward Fleet.

The problems are that:

1) Forward Fleets are too small
2) We don't have enough SH that would actually be useful in Afghanistan

[spheroid]

If its support helicopters you want then why don't we use these?


http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/apgphoto/images/29129/raf-mil-8mtv-1.jpg

[chinook240]

spheroid,

This was posted on a similar thread and may answer your question:

Shirlely, some friendly state could wet or dry lease aerial assets to fill the gap?
MIL -8 anyone?

Problems for U.S. Russian Helicopter Order
Jun 1, 2009

By Sharon Weinberger

The U.S. Army signed off on an unusual procurement contract in December 2007: A $322-million order for 22 Russian helicopters bought through a U.S. defense company for Iraq. The contract was a rush order, designed to deliver Mi-17 helicopters in a bid to quickly reequip the Iraqi air force and allow it to perform counterinsurgency operations. But 18 months after signing, not a single helicopter has been delivered, despite full payment. The Army now concedes the contract is over budget and nearly a year behind schedule.

Such are the perils of buying Russian equipment through the U.S. Foreign Military Sales (FMS) system, a unique requirement that is rapidly escalating into the billions of dollars for Iraq and Afghanistan.
Buying Mi-17s, and other Russian equipment, for the Iraqi military seems logical. The Iraqis flew and maintained Soviet (now Russian) aircraft in the Saddam Hussein era. Another important feature: Russian rotorcraft are significantly cheaper than U.S. helicopters, at least in theory.
The Mi-17 is the export designation for the Mi-8 airframe (NATO designation “Hip”), and after 40 years the aircraft still has brisk sales, with new orders from India, China, Pakistan and Colombia, among others. That has been good news for the factories that produce Mi-17s: Ulan Ude and Kazan. Just a few years ago, work at the plants had slowed to a crawl, but now even getting a slot in the production line can be a challenge.
...
Problems for U.S. Russian Helicopter Order | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=dti&id=news/IRAQ060109.xml&headline=Problems) for U.S. Russian Helicopter Order

[the funky munky]

29 SK4 in the forward fleet. About 8 or so in Afghanistan.

I believe the raspberry ripple Mil is there for training Afghans, not sure what hoops would need to be jumped through to get the safety case signed off on those!

[Jackonicko]

Does that include the 6CRs, FM?

[the funky munky]

Not as far as I am aware, the SK6CRs are for the AUP.

[fltlt]

Using the long established (and well proven) western military ops and maintenance regs, they are actually more than a match for our stuff. Now, the preceeding is not based on the "only flown by a little old Hungarian lady, with low hours" birds, of which there are quite a few out there, complete with certs and passports.

Apologies to any little old Hungarian ladies.

[icarusflight]

On the subject of seakings in Afghanistan versus the TOTAL amount in the British inventory. It is unfair to compare all the UK seaking fleet with the amount currently deployed. Remember that only about 30 or so of the seaking fleet are the MK4 commando variant and of any use at all in the Ghan (although I admit that I recently saw a Bagger rear its ugly head on a dispersal at Bastion). The MK6 is a COMPLETE waste of time unless your moving bag rats on Salisbury plain!

Oh by the way Mr Royal Navy, government, procurement, upgarde, penny pincher man (whoever you are!) the clue is in the name, its a SEAKING (as in king of the sea). I doubt there are moves afoot to re-name it the 50 degree, Afghan mountain King!!!

As I remember The sea is still at 'sea level'. Isnt it? Pressure and temperature dependant obviously!!

[Brewster Buffalo]

....PS Where did RogerK get those figures from - the Observers Book of Aircraft?

Revealed: scandal of UK's grounded helicopter fleet - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-scandal-of-uks-grounded-helicopter-fleet-1750094.html)

[rogerk]

No - Defence Correspondent of NON UK Newspaper !!

So who's telling porkies ??

Got a good debate going though ?

:ok::ok:

[kharmael]

Would I be right in thinking that Afghan is too hot and high for effective Puma usage, hence why none are out there?

[L J R]

.....and then there is this incident that will also add to the debate of the use of Mi-8 et al...

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/381820-mi-8-crash-kandahar.html

[chinook240]

Hey, found some at RIAT

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt208/Plane_Crazy/Navy-Helicopters.jpg

[Gnd]

No stabilisers for the Puma so can't go in case the wind blows or some big yank bully flys over the top.
Mi-8 or 17? Not a bad idea if you can get over the embarrassment or safety case – ooh is that possible? Fltlt, seem to know a lot?

[fltlt]

Enough to say in almost 20 years of ops, only one case of stupidity (Can you say who didn't turn on the fuel transfer pump?). Everybody knocks them, but for what we need right now, go ugly early. Sorry A10 fans. They are archaic machines, designed for austere conditions at best, but when you need simple what else is there? Again, rigorous maintenance/overhaul program is the key. Plus of course real pilots who know how to get the best out of the machine within it's limits. Sorry Larry, for whom the Bell tolls.
YouTube - Discovery Channel - Wings Of The Red Star - Mi-24 The Hind (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehm0rm8TMFo)

[pumaboy]

Hi

I want to ask somethingabout the shortage of helicopters within the British armed forces and it is something we are hearing about for sometime now this is not new.

It can not be helping that the Puma fleet is ageing and must costing a hell of amount of public money to keep them flying and constantly upgrading them.

The puma seems to get the job done and if they are such a good transport helicopter has the MoD ever thought about replacing them with Eurocopter AS532 MK I Cougars I mean they are reliable you can purchase them of the production line and would be cheaper than upgrading 30 yearold airframes that are long well past there sell by date.

These would be far cheaper than purchaseing Merlins or even chinooks

I hope i'm not a long way out but it was just a thought but probably al-ready been thought off.

Would this help the Armed forces in the future?

Any input would be welcome as I'm not that familiar with the military

[Could be the last?]

12.......yes 12, Dark Blue RW airborne at the same time...... it must be the RN PR machine in overdrive!:ok:

[Fear The Reaper]

CBTL?

I make that 11 of the Senior Service's finest and 1 belonging to "Teeny Weeny Airways" (aka Army Air Corps) - the clue is in the camoulage and the skids on the nearest helo (Nerd Alert!:8).

Reaper

[RNGrommits]

Reaper
Standby for incoming. I think you may need to check your facts, which obviously are short of the chapter entitled RM.

[Widger]

Oh Grommit, you got there first..just about to say I was no gonna be the first to bite!

[Fear The Reaper]

Every Bootneck I've ever spoken to has been at pains to tell me they have as little to do with the Navy as possible...but I take your point and standby to eat my humble pie!

Reaper

[Fear The Reaper]

Addendum: The Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Royal Fleet Auxilliary form the Naval Service. Therefore, I am correct that they are 11 of the Royal Navy's finest but potentially incorrect if the Lynx is RM and not AAC.

Anyway, I did learn something tonight about the Naval Service :ok:

Reaper

PS. Still think a bit of humble pie needs to be nibbled!

[the funky munky]

With head firmly placed through hole in my Kagoul I do believe it is a Lynx Mk7 from 847 NAS!

Therefore a full house from the RN.

[Fear The Reaper]

Full pie being inserted!

[Occasional Aviator]

There was a similar story in the Times... really got my back up.

and, actually, what 's the problem.... once you knock off the ones that are unsuitable for use in Afghanistan the figures aren't that bad.

eg 40 Chinooks - 10 in theatre - similar proportion of SK4s, Pumas and Merlin Mk3s that are, were, or are going to be in Afghanistan or Iraq/Kuwait (funny how that doesn't seem to count any more)

After all, the Army needs 5 brigades to maintain one in theatre, the RN uses 4 SSBNs to keep one at sea - against that 10 out of 40 is pretty good isn't it?