EgyptAir in hot water with the EU

[Panama Jack]

This situation certainly does not fare well for the carrier. Must also be an embarassement to the Star Alliance, which EgyptAir recently joined:


EgyptAir warned to improve safety or face EU blacklisting
David Kaminski-Morrow, London (17Jul09, 15:48 GMT, 217 words)


EgyptAir has been warned that it risks inclusion on the European Commission's blacklist of banned airlines unless it addresses serious concerns in several areas of its operation.

In a detailed assessment of its recent blacklist revision, the Commission states that 75 inspections since January last year turned up 240 individual safety findings, including 69 in the highest of the three classifying categories.

The Commission expressed "serious concern" to the Egyptian civil aviation authority in May, regarding "systemic safety deficiencies" at the flag-carrier.

It says the "persistence of serious findings" in areas such as airworthiness, maintenance, operations and the safety of cargo on board has prompted a request for monthly reports, from Egyptian authorities, on implementation of a corrective action plan.

EgyptAir submitted extensive documentation detailing remedial action during June, says the Commission, and made a presentation to the European air safety committee two weeks ago.

As a result the Commission says it is not blacklisting the carrier "at this stage".

But it adds that it has "urged" EgyptAir to provide "without delay" for the sustainable resolution of the various findings, "failing which, appropriate measures will have to be taken".

Inspections of the airline are to be intensified and the air safety committee will review the carrier's position in November. EgyptAir could not immediately be reached for comment.


Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

[concordino]

Few year ago Egypt Air was classified by the US-FAA as category 2, citing maintenance issues.

This comes as no surprise. Only this time the repercussions are more critical considering they are also part of the STAR alliance and also serve a very populous country in the Arab World.

Continuous new modern airplane additions, have helped ease this issue. But what happens when that stops ?

[411A]

They might have 'operational issues' as well.
Last year, I was listening on the KRT frequency, and here comes Egypt Air, enroute southern Africa.
They were told by KRT that due to crossing traffic, they had to descend.
They objected, and were then told that if they did not descend, Nairobi would not accept the flight at the FIR boundry.
Egypt Air did not descend, and did not reply to further KRT transmissions.

Going 'silent' is not a good modus operandi.

[High 6]

Maybe their radio just failed??:E

So pray tell, what happened next..... Did Nairobi accept them?

[411A]

So pray tell, what happened next..... Did Nairobi accept them?
Negative, the last I heard.
Don't know what happened afterwards, as we changed to the JED frequency.

Apparently, pilots at EgyptAir are (some of 'em anyway)...truly out to lunch.

A bad scenario, make no mistake.:rolleyes:

There is a lot of work to be done in Europe, M Bussereau. Why not get on with your real job, and clean up the problems at home first?

He can start at AirFrance...large hull losses, due to inept abilities.
Apparently.:rolleyes:

[pinkus]

This does not surprise me.

I flew with them last week ( Not by choice my tight arse employer bought the ticket) and their cabin crew were smoking on the jump seat while we taxied!

[Not Gulfair CEO]

I believe Air France is not any way safer than Egypt air, Paris airport is one of the worst designed airport in the world, prune to taxiway and runway incursions. On top of it unprofessional ATC giving instructions in french to air France on daily basis. I totally agree that they need to solve some of there own issues before Kartoom authourity ban them from their airspace.

[Wiley]

I flew EgyptAir domestic some years ago (B737, Abu Simbal-Aswan). On departure, with cabin crew still walking in aisles helping pax stow baggage etc, we commenced taxi. With one FA taking a 'happy snap' photograph for a honymooning couple sitting in the row one ahead of me (Row 10), I looked out the window and commented to my wife that the pilot was taxiing rather fast. I then realised - at about the same time as the FA did - that we were in fact, quite advanced in the takeoff roll.

The poor girl threw the camera to the honeymooners and made a dash for her (forward) jump seat. We were airborne and at ~ 15 degrees nose up body angle for the last three or four metres of her run for her seat, which was conducted on her hands and knees. She was finally hoisted into her seat by her colleague - and my wife and I were apparently the only two on board who found this to be in any way unusual.

On a later flight into Cairo, it seemed to me that almost every passenger on board was on his/her mobile phone as we passed 10,000' on descent to call the wife/office to tell them the landing time.

[Bredrin]

One of the carriers that I always said that I would NEVER fly with. Flown with quite a few ex Egypt Air guys and while some have been quite competent, maybe 30 or 40% have been below standard.
My 2 unbiased cents worth

[GBB]

Most of you guys probably heard this one... Might be some out there that didnt. :}

YouTube - Egypt Air Welcome Announcment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkywyFKQyA0)

[THR MCT]

Must agree on Air France, French authority are part of the problem we all notice how the Yemenia unfortunate crash came almost as a blessing for them " right time" just to put AF 447 Accident in the background of the head news.

In my opinion they hold the golden cezar of Airbus crashes in aviation history including A320 Mulhouse, A320 Air Inter mount st odile, and Concorde, A340 Toronto, A330 Mid Atlantic.

I wonder why we are having this double standards from inssurance companies where they could impose on them the same rules as for the asian carriers, right now they are showing on their records one total loss per year.:ugh:

Fly high and Safe:ok:

on Egypt Air no comment the u tube link tell it all:{

[Mister Geezer]

On a later flight into Cairo, it seemed to me that almost every passenger on board was on his/her mobile phone as we passed 10,000' on descent to call the wife/office to tell them the landing time.

Sounds normal really.... :}

[faheel]

GBB that was sooo funny :)

[SU-GCM]

there are Rumors that 6 A320s for MSR have already been banned from entering EU and they had to order 6 additional 737-800s to be delivered in 2010 to compensate the 6 banned birds

Also the A340s/B735s will be sold out by the end of the year

Anyone have details about the nature of the safety findings found on the 6 planes or in general about MSR ?

Before we used to hear that Charter airlines in Egypt had safety findings during random inspections in europe (like flash air,air memphis,etc...) those were like Missing seat belts, fire extingushers etc.. but I can't belive the same on EgyptAir

[SLF3b]

Can anyone point me to a link to an original document or press release where EU concerns with Egyptair are documented?

[Bus429]

...and can someone elucidate on the rather scurrilous allegations about Air France?

[uglyraedII]

thank you so much for posting about Egypt air! my friend thinks that its the best airline in the world etc.. He keeps on bragging about it! i hope that will shut him up. It mus be pretty humiliating for the airline.

[SU-GCM]

9. Egypt Air
75 ramp inspections carried out over the last 18 months in Austria, Germany, France, Italy,
the Netherlands and Spain have identified a number of safety deficiencies.
Following contacts between the Commission and the Egyptian civil aviation authorities,including hearings with the airline at the air safety committee, a corrective action plan has now been implemented by Egypt Air.
Member States will ensure that regular ramp inspections of Egypt Air aircrafts take place and the situation will be reviewed by the air safety committee in November 2009.


Egypt Air
(66) There is evidence of numerous safety deficiencies on the
part of Egypt Air certified in Egypt. These deficiencies
have been identified in 75 inspections carried out since
January 2008 mainly by Austria, France, Germany, Italy,
Netherlands, and Spain as well as other ECAC states
during ramp inspections performed under the SAFA
programme. The repetition of these findings (a total of
240 findings out of which 91 category 2 and 69
category 3) raises concerns about systemic safety defi*
ciencies.
(67) The Commission, having regard to the SAFA reports,
entered on 25 May 2009 into a formal consultation
with the competent authorities of Egypt (ECAA),
expressing serious concerns about the safety of the oper*
ations of this carrier and urging the carrier and its
competent authorities pursuant to Article 7 of Regulation
(EC) No 2111/2005 to take measures to satisfactorily
resolve the detected safety deficiencies.
(68) The carrier submitted voluminous documentation on 10,
16, 17, 19 and 26 June 2009. The submitted documents
indicated remedial actions taken or envisaged to be taken
after the ramp inspections as well as root cause analysis,
providing for long term solutions. The carrier requested
to make an oral presentation to the Air Safety
Committee and did so on 30 June 2009.
(69) In view of the persistence of serious findings in the areas
of continuing airworthiness, maintenance, operations, as
well as the safety of cargo on board, the Commission
requests the competent authorities of Egypt to send
monthly reports on verification of the implementation
of the corrective action plan along with any other
reports of audits that these authorities will carry out
on Egypt Air. The Commission should also receive a
report of the final audit to be carried of the out by the
competent authorities of Egypt at the end of this period,
the results of which will be communicated to the
Commission along with the recommendations of this
authority.
(70) The carrier and competent authorities of Egypt accepted
a visit from EC experts to verify the implementation of
the corrective action plan. The Commission urged the
carrier to provide without delay for the sustainable
resolution of the various findings, failing which appro*
priate measures will have to be taken. On this basis, at
this stage, is is assessed that the carrier should not be
included in Annex A.
(71) The Member States shall ensure that the number of
inspections of Egypt Air will be intensified in order to
provide the basis for a reassessment of this case during
the next Air Safety Committee meeting which is to take
place in November 2009.

[Capetonian]

I did some IT consultancy work for Egyptair, based in the UK. I was appalled by the attitude of their staff to their airline and its customers, and the general lack of professionalism. When my employer asked me to go to Cairo to continue the project there, my condition was as long as I did not have to fly on Egyptair. Apart from Cubana this is the only time in my 30 year career in the airline industry that I have refused to fly on an airline for safety reasons, and I've flown on some pretty dodgy airlines in West and Central Africa, and Central Asia, (although I might add that the choice was road transport).

By the way the Egypt Air announcement which GBB posted on 19th July is a copy of the original Air Zimbabwe one from Radio Highveld YouTube - Air Zimbabwe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX_tF1Ltawo)

[PorkKnuckle]

I flew with egyptair about 10 years ago. Such wonderful, well-mannered passengers, all waiting patiently in line. And the staff - so friendly, helpful, polite, professional. Such a pleasant experience it was.

We ended up in the jumpseats, which was nice of them as the flight was full.

I saw one of their captains in the terminal who had FIVE gold bars. He was strutting to match the opinion he (and his employers presumably) obviously had of himself.

On take-off, I was suitable impressed when the pilots managed to rotate, then light up their ciggies before the first turn.

Their phones were on the whole time. I know because they were piled on the centre radio pedestal right in front of me and one started ringing at about 5000 ft. I seemed to be the only one who thought this was odd.

Just like Capt Couscous in the youtube vid, their pilots' epaulettes had the widest, shiniest gold bars I've ever seen. I was impressed to see them tuck the harness shoulder straps UNDERNEATH the epaulettes so as not to tarnish the gold-coloured thread. They get themselves a new set every time they pass their sim assessments (if they pass).

[fractional]

For Ramp Checks to have credibility, ICAO must take the lead besides "recommending only". Recommending leaves countries and associations of countries to get themselves together and create SOPs to ensure home and visiting operators stick to the rules.
As one can imagine, this will be always disputed because the accused will always say they are receiving unfair treatment or the competitor or neighbour is getting preferable treatment.
Arabs back Yemenia as French safety row deepens (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/20/333689/arabs-back-yemenia-as-french-safety-row-deepens.html) Why shouldn't they? Then what?! Remember the "real" decisions out of every ordinary or extraordinary meeting of the Arab League... Window dressing.
I would not hesitate much in saying that many countries worldwide are very credible and serious about their operating standards, but still it is seen as a single or regional country's decision rather than global.
IOSA was a good start, but it is also an airline money making machine... with very high costs. Some may disagree, but I read it this way. How about the non-adhering non-complying operators? No one will stop them from operating and at a much lower cost.
As an example, a second string operator (non-IATA), operating a KRT-DXB route, will not have the same training costs and standards as EK or FlyDubai. Will this be a fair deal?
We need a new, credible and serious "world order" where there has to be a large number of items to ensure safety is paramount.
FTLs are something which is easily "read and perceived" differently worldwide and every single country has its own rules and this is accepted as long as it is adhered to.

[SU-GCM]

it's 20th November and EgyptAir is operating Normally in/out of Europe !:ok:

[Profit Max]

So, what was the outcome ofThe Member States shall ensure that the number of
inspections of Egypt Air will be intensified in order to
provide the basis for a reassessment of this case during
the next Air Safety Committee meeting which is to take
place in November 2009.

[411A]

As an example, a second string operator (non-IATA), operating a KRT-DXB route, will not have the same training costs and standards as EK or FlyDubai. Will this be a fair deal?

Why would it not, if this so-called non-IATA carrier had a reasonable safety record?

We need a new, credible and serious "world order" where there has to be a large number of items to ensure safety is paramount.

What rubbish.
We need no such thing.
If, on the other hand, we had this 'world order', I wonder where AirFrance would fall in the rankings...with their highest hull loss record in Europe?

Pot calling kettle black, seems to me.

[fractional]

411A , you are either "blind or you don't want to see...":ugh:

[411A]

I 'see' perfectly well, fractional...you appear to be an 'elitist' and look down your nose at smaller, yet perfectly successful, air carriers.

Care to address my AirFrance comment?
You know the airline, with the absolute highest hull loss record in 'elitest' Europe.

[fractional]

411A, if you know what "world football" is and the recent events in World Cup qualifiers, I'll say to you that I'm no Thierry Henry or Michel Platini to cradle Air France to the summit of safety standards and pretend all is well.
This thread is not between me and you, so (please) focus on the subject and lets' not wander around. If you wish to carry on, you can keep the cup with the "hand of Thierry or Maradona" if you like.
My comment was about the fragilities in the safety checking system around the world with special incidence on countries where AOCs are issued (or re-issued) and fail to carry out stringent checks.
ICAO has to engage and ensure all countries follow stringent safety standards, audit them frequently across the spectrum so that some non-complaint operators based non-compliant countries do not take (commercial) advantage operating their aircraft at all.
I rest my case.

[doubleu-anker]

Not hard to see why their little neighbour walked over them in 6 days flat, is it?

The only reason EA are not on the Blacklist is the probable political repercussions. E.G., no Egyptian landings or overflights for EU carriers etc., etc. Yes AF should be on the list as well. Oh hang on a minute, France is part of or the EU! Couldn't do that could we?

Things will never change.

Reminds me of the flight deck punch up in the galley. On the ground at Cairo, pax on board, F/o asks the Captain for weather brief. Captain refused and resulting in a punch up in the forward galley, in full view of the pax. Said captain threw the f/o off the aircraft and proceed to destination Sharm single pilot. A320.

The old 3rd world problem of crews not selected on merit and cancerous nepotism. Will take at least one generation to see any improvement, if drastic measures were initiated now. Hell will freeze over first.

[PHAROH]

doubleu-anker (http://www.pprune.org/members/52057-doubleu-anker)

true it took the little neighbour 6 days, but payback was tough & in only 6 hrs ,it was really fun :) "always finish the books till the end ".

and as for the rest of the fairy tale,where on earth did you get that from?
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many (http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/do_not_believe_in_anything_simply_because_you/12103.html).

d-a
take a break

[doubleu-anker]

Have a look at this then:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/821-crm-egyptian-style.html

If the story is untrue then I would suggest EA would have a case against pprune would they not?

it was EA as I was in Cairo during that period and I remember the incident/crime well.

Do you suffer from selective amensia by any chance?

[PHAROH]

i guess that you are the one suffering from amnesia '
have'nt i told you earlier "always finish the books till the end ".look at the end of that thread "pale" it is closed may be for legal issues.
let me tell you that ,
EA is not on top of every thing & they know it over there ,that doesn't anoy them or everyone else exept you ,so why don't you go ahead have case against them with what you have against them ? or
TAKE A BREAK:ugh:

[airmemphis]

doubleu-anker, that incident you're referring to isn't quite accurate. First off, there was an disagreement between both pilots which resulted in the co-pilot being relieved of his duties (later suspended). Secondly, a relief pilot was brought in to fly the domestic sector. Thirdly, this did not occur on an EgyptAir flight but on another airline who have since gone bankrupt.

As for the EgyptAir/EU issue, the airline took immediate remedial action when it was informed of the findings. I understand the recent management reshuffle (new CEOs & VPs for the holding company and airline) was in part instigated as a result of safety shortcomings revealed. Without a doubt this was an embarrassment for the airline, since they've made great strides in improving their operations, product and image over the past few years. Hopefully this will instill a stronger safety culture within. I believe the airline has the potential to be leading carrier in its market.

[Smilin_Ed]

I am considering a tour to Egypt. The tour operator uses Egypt Air to get tourists from Cairo to Luxor, etc. Are there any non Egyptian airlines operating on domestic Egyptian routes?

[bluebirde2000]

No, ONLY Egyptian private airlines or Egyptair itself.

[411A]

Are you implying that Air France and Egyptair are equal in terms of their saftey record?
About equal.

[D-Aviator]

The A340 are stiil there as are the B737-500's no one is willing to these dogs

[MikeAlpha7]

It is certainly not shocking news that EU is pressing hard on Egypt Air to improve its standard , however , it is very surprising since this Egypt Air is way better than 10 years ago. Of course , this is all relative , but from my own experience with that airline , I must admit that they have improved tremendously in Flight Operations. No idea about their maintenance though.

About Air France...I flew with them a few days back on Geneva -CDG on an A321, Nothing unusual except for lowering the Landing gear quite early and the aircraft was not even on final approach!! Then again , maybe they do not have any serious issue with fuel ... it is probably cheap and plentiful in Air France :)