Qantas A380 - LAME positions.

[The Original Jetpipe]

Heard a rumour that Qantas has internally advertised for more LAMES for the A380, does that mean they will take more people from base maintenance? or just select from people working on the aircraft already. And what are the chances for someone outside the company submitting an application?.

Regards

[Short_Circuit]

It is open to all QF LAMEs but the sad fact is they know who the want and are just waiting for them to apply.
Good news if you are one of "them" and I suggest "they" already know they have a position.
Standard QF selection criteria.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Its only open to Sydney based LAMEs and no one else.

And more likely the jobs will be going to those SIT LAMEs who have been asked to apply to the EOI.

[The Original Jetpipe]

Thanks for the info, guess its back to the drawing board!

[domo]

OJP

You applied for a qf ame position did you miss out
qf lames would walk over your dead body for a course
qf ames would do anything for a course

The chance of a walk up start for an A380 course you have a better chance in the auslotto

[griffin one]

Rumors and inuendo. Called the ops managers last week and asked the questions, basically got told there are no set numbers from any department(sio,sdo,base).
The SIO wish list , Tick the box pamphlet is a joke. If you're at the sio you have to apply like everyone else, No free rides apparrently.
Submitted my cv because I am so sick of base, After thursdays meeting who wouldnt apply.

[the rim]

What happened at thursday's meeting ...what was it about

[HARDNUT]

EEO employer???? I dont think so.

[Bootstrap1]

The whole process is turning into a farce, there doesn't seem to be any available copy of the process for all to peruse.
And in the end the A380 manager has the right of veto to anyone that might not meet his approval.

Read into that what you will.

[griffin one]

Contact the ALAEA, the selection criteria was amended by the executive. to allow a honest approach to who and where from candidates get selected.apparently no A380 ops manager have a say in the selection process, But the ops managers from where you apply do.
so if you have pissed off cranky franky,timber deck ,hot rod or the gutrash beware.

[BigGun]

The SIO wish list , Tick the box pamphlet is a joke. If you're at the sio you have to apply like everyone else, No free rides apparrently.

The list had EOI for base and dom, and the A380 box said I plan on applying thru the system for A380 spot (or close to)

So the "wish list" did state any A380 applicants had to go thru the application system

[Bootstrap1]

So the A380 Ops managers have no say but the legacy Ops managers do?

Is there any other confirmed information about this whole setup

[chksatis]

At the end of the day you would have to think that the managers would have some say. As much as the process is meant to be open and fair, the EOI came out at the same time as the SIT wish list, i'm sure the SIT blokes would be there preference rather than moving blokes through 2 areas (i.e bloke from base to 380, sit guy to backfill it), move the guy straight from SIT only half the paperwork.

[Bootstrap1]

But if you believe the rumours Team 380 are not overly happy with the work ethic or effort of their members who are ex SIT and are not wanting anymore.

This has been said by more than one 380 team member and it seems to be a recurring theme. So if this is the case then why would they recruit more SIT LAMEs.

It isnt exactly a secret that if an aircraft cant have an MEL applied or fix it in 5 minutes then SIT run out of manpower for that aircraft and more often than not base has to pick it up.

If you read between the lines of the job ad they wont pay senior lame money,tech specialist or the like to me this would seem that they are after people who work for a living and don't skulk around the edges trying to do projects or secondments and that makes sense.

Why train someone for 3-6 months only to have them disappear to a day shift jolly and never actually work on the aircraft they applied to work on.

If management have any sense they will employ workers rather than more SIT pen jockeys.

[Jet-A-One]

You sound like you need a Bex and a good lie down Bootstrap1... textbook symptoms of CC001 syndrome.

[hadagutfull]

SIT Pen jocky.... ouch !

Those boys are worth a lot more than that my friend....

[chksatis]

Fair enough to a degree Bootstrap, for the most part they more sent the SIT guys over there to run the show rather than work it, most of them were either DMM, Supervisors or Snr's who hadn't been on the tools for a long time. At the end of the day some of those guys will go back to the terminal, while the rest of the crowd will remain there when they re-integrate it back to base (i.e A330), then the SIT will get there own guys trained up.. i.e situo normal.

[another superlame]

I agree pen jockey is a bit harsh. I wonder if the CC001 DMMs and Seniors are a bit put out that SIT seem to have the majority of the 380 senior spots.
And to add insult to injury if the do apply and are accepted then they will be relegated to the junior(to them anyway)position of LAME.
That will not doubt hurt some egos.

[Bootstrap1]

Wow my last post must have hit a nerve. I am surprised it took so long for a response.;)

[ampclamp]

Hey guys lets not start slinging off publicly about our colleagues pls.

every section is made of individuals, good, bad,motivated or brain dead.
In my experience and I've had plenty, no section has a mortgage on hard workers bludgers or brown noses.
If a sections work practices dictate certain ways of doing things that's a supervisory / management issue.
Selling your first born to get onto the dugong is not everyone's cup of tea.

I'd like a change but not at the expense of my current rostering.

[Short_Circuit]

They can shove the A380 you know where. Lets concentrate on the new backbone of QF in the A330 & B787 instead of only 20 white elephants, which will quickly become the new "legacy" fleet. :ok:

[Bootstrap1]

As predicted this whole selection process is proving to be a farce, you would have thought that by moving the fat controller from this position of power things would have improved, but no. It seems the new manager is intent on putting his stamp on 380 land so the selection process will not be fair,equitable or transparent.

I think that this goes against the company policies for job vacancies.

I also find it hard to believe that the association allowed this crap to happen. Engineering cannot be trusted to perform their own selection processes. The Base Senior LAME is proof that the idiots in charge have no idea how to run the business or how to select people on their own merit.
I am now starting to believe that the manager of 380 land has his own agenda and too bad to anyone who doesn't fit his mold.Why else would he have the power to veto anyone he doesnt think fits the bill but has otherwise met his non existent criteria.

[Bolty McBolt]

I also find it hard to believe that the association allowed this crap to happen

I think you will find the whole process was set by union.
2 off MEL based union officials worked out the system without consultation with SYD.

This is the system we have :ok:

PS I liked the SIT pen jockey comment, to close to the bone for many I bet. :D

[UPPERLOBE]

Bootstrap1

The SIT guy's have heard all that pen jocky stuff many times over many years, what you appear to lack is a basic understanding of how the system works.

Unfortunately people like you never bother to research things properly and go on gut, not always a good idea.

Which is why you will probably always be on the sidelines barking. You are gunna be on a short chain if they want to keep you out of H96 and east of Lake Gaunt.

Hey, only trying to help here, don't shoot the messenger.

[Johnny V]

Yes the dim witted need not reply and by most of the comments.............
If it wasn't for some twit in IR we'd be picking the right men for the job not having to consult the union at all. As for the Melbourne mafia setting the criteria who knows but I would have thought your whole stupid executive would've put in their pennys worth being the top notchers they are

[Bootstrap1]

Thanks Bolty,
I think you are right with it being close to the bone

[The Mr Fixit]

Seems to be a fair bit of concern with the process. As I understand it was a joint creation reached by mediation in the AIRC so either we run it as a draft (which according to the secretary it still is) or, let we just go back to way it was and let the golden children get all the courses as was the case for the first round of the A380 courses . Though I hear alot of the whinging ones have since quietened down albeit after they were chosen for the course. I really don't care about the 380 I'm more concerned as to when they're gonna train the rest of us lackeys on the rest of the fleet. Gavin said at a Melbourne meeting 290 slots this year (inc a380) so far only a pittance has been given and then to the chosen few (under the old system gobble gobble under the desk)

[Bootstrap1]

Mr Fixit I agree that the new process is supposed to make it fair and transparent for all, but chances are the golden children will still be the chosen ones, which will just prove what a total load of crap this new process is.
And so what if the assocation did agree to it, it is still a load of crap.

[Short_Circuit]

Haven't you blokes been given the scripted responses to the interview questions yet? :eek:
If not, you are obviously not the chosen ones.:sad:

[griffin one]

So why do the likes of us from base have to be judged by our ops managers ?
Yet come the sio to base/sdo opportunities it will be an interview process.
real fair and equitable. Back to another A chk grrrrrrrrrrrr

[UPPERLOBE]

:hmm: QF course selection process ...

First pick a :zzz: or two

then a coupla :{

the odd :ugh:

a few :p
one or two :mad: to :confused: the punters

don't pick :* he is still :yuk: from last time

watch out for := if he get's in he will have to find something else to grizzle about.

Oh, and :8 who will ask a series of dumb questions last thing every friday afternoon.

Rest assured it's not an easy job :ok:

[the rim]

as with every training slot the ones who missed out will moan about it and say "how come he got on it"...just had a look at the union memo about it dont think that bolt on's should be included as they are not payed as a full company type....you are never going to get away from some guys getting trained before someone else but i agree there should be a fir process for the rest of us....like upperlobe indicated:*

[the rim]

;)good to see johnny v back

[Jet-A-One]

I know some LAMEs that haven't been on course for 8 years because they are lazy and incompetent. I don't see why they should get 25% head-start on someone that may work harder and be better at their job.

I also know a few LAMEs that haven't been trained in 8 years because they've had just about every licence and bolt on there is for the last 8 years. You can only sign one aircraft at a time . :ugh:

[Short_Circuit]

I know Base LAMEs & Seniors Mech & Av who have not had training for 15+ years with no prospect of getting any more, ie A330 A380. But hey, they are only the most experienced engineers we have it would be a waste to train them further.:ugh: (Buggery campaign continues)

[Johnny V]

Thank you Rim for the welcome back

1st point - It should be the company's right to pick whoever they want for courses after all they pay for it
2nd point - Those who got credits outside should utilize their licences whether paid for them or not, those who got licences without their managers permission do not deserve to be paid......ever
3rd point - The ops managers should be making the decisions after all they're the ones who went above and beyond during the strike showing they're men with backbone and character
Last point - If those twits at Bexley think you guys actually have the balls to do something about something that doesnt involve money they're deluded.

[the rim]

lets face it you should get selected by what you do at work and how you preform...ie if you are the biggest bludger and dont know anything why should get training before someone who gets in there and does the work ....the wage stucture is such that even the boof heads go up a grade every four years without training[untill they are capped]and if you are good you get training even if you are not going to get payed for it ......so why dont the over acheivers knock back the training if they are not getting any money..mmmmmmm wonder why????????:ugh:and the boofheads will get their share ...

[qf 1]

on ya Johnny d!ck bone what is the dif between your points 2 and 3:{

[Ngineer]

Why would one wish to have an A380 lic? Just because it is so damn BIG? Maybe it's just an extension of one's pen!$..... Whatever floats your boat I guess...:rolleyes:

[the rim]

i see the union has put the stoppers on people going on a a380 course ......be careful boys the guys who want it will bypass a union directive to get what they want and it will lead to a split ....again ....i hope it wont happen and we stick together as we did in the PIA

[Short_Circuit]

I am sure there is no desperation to get an A380 lic, it will come as did the 744, 767 and now 330. A split now is just a management wet dream, it won't happen again.
Together we stand, divided we wouldn't consider! :ok:

[ampclamp]

short cct I wish it were true but I know one or 2 who will imho ignore the directive if the carrot is dangled.
anyway its off to the commission where if they have any ticker they'll be forced to follow the agreed policy just the same as we would have to.

[another superlame]

What a surprise to have management go back on their word.
If the new rumours are true the Base Ops Managers are not going let any more than 8 leave base maint.
Followed by the next rumour that base employees might be marked below what they deserve to artificially deflate their scores so that they dont lose the cream to team 380. I find this one a bit hard to swallow but hey, this is ACS and anything is possible.

So what happens if this whole flawed process does drag out, it is going to cause issues with the successful candidates who need to go to Brisbane for conversion training, but if they have already chosen who they want this wont be an issue.

[Bolty McBolt]

Jonny V
If it wasn't for some twit in IR we'd be picking the right men for the job not having to consult the union at all. As for the Melbourne mafia setting the criteria who knows but I would have thought your whole stupid executive would've put in their penny’s worth being the top notchers they are
29th July 2009 13:44


As I alluded to before, the A380 criteria process was MEL centric . I tried to find out information about the selection process not one SYD based ALAEA rep or Exec had anything to say until after a formal meeting was held in SYD, well after the fact. When I asked why, I was greeted with screwed faces and mutterings. The reason to keep the A380 selection process quiet may have been to keep the scuttlebutt to a minimum but IMHO the characters I spoke to seemed peeved that they would have to answer to the members in SYD and were not involved in the criteria process.

the rim
lets face it you should get selected by what you do at work and how you perform...ie if you are the biggest bludger and don’t know anything why should get training before someone who gets in there and does the work ....

Myself and many more would agree with you Rim but this is where we may need to tread carefully.
Currently there is no "real" (PPR) performance based review or rating of personnel in engineering therefore QF management have no bone fide way of rating people other than the old school method.(rumour matey club feed back etc)
If we (the union) demand the A380 selection criteria without any interview or current skill base requirements in the selection process.
The company may demand in the IRC (Fair Work Aust) that a management managed/controlled PPR system be installed to allow a "rated" selection process in the future.
A PPR system is probably something that should be instituted and in times of peace would be beneficial to all parties IF administered well. A big IF
BUT
in times like the unpleasantness of 2008 with M and his Hench men at the helm imagine your review points if you did not tow the company (M) line of thinking or worse still you could be PPR ed out the door perfectly legally if part of company policy.
Next question is does the ALAEA let the selection process slip to protect all the members rights against a new PPR process or fight for the current selection process and give the company the ammunition make changes that could affect all in the future.


I don't submit this as a conspiracy hatched out by management but it would be how I would take on the association on this matter. If I can think of this having a beer and mag with mates on a Friday night I am sure the people whom are paid to think up this stuff already have.

Off topic and a bit out side the square.
My 2 cents
:ugh:

[Short_Circuit]

The biggest problem in our area is that the only people who know who performs well and should be on-trained are SOME supervisors (those who give a dam), and the LAME's who work with them. management and People morons (or what ever they call themselves this week) have absolutely no idea what goes on day to day.

The under desk bangers, who vanish from the work site to suck up anyone, join any committee to suck harder, are the usual suspects to be advanced while the true workers are hard at the task of fixing aircraft and covering for the head bangers.

Enough is enough. We must fix the problem now. It starts with A380 selection..... Take them to FWA.

[Fargoo]

Short Circuit, you've nailed exactly what happens in my airline too.
We don't get the 380 or 787 for a couple of years yet but already theres some manouvering going on from the usual suspects.
What they don't understand, as pointed out above, is that these aircraft will soon age and become the norm just like the 777 has and the novelty will soon wear off.
I feel for you :ugh:

[Bootstrap1]

Does anyone have an update on this farce? Is it going to go to the commission or will everyone just have to cop it sweet.

[Syd eng]

New notice out again this afternoon, Looks like it is all back on.

[griffin one]

so around we go again. what worries me is know i have a leading hand who also has applied for the A380 that now will be rating myself and two other on his crew. fair and equitable i ask ? holding my breath.

[Bolty McBolt]

so around we go again. what worries me is know i have a leading hand who also has applied for the A380 that now will be rating myself and two other on his crew. fair and equitable i ask ? holding my breath.

Watch this space.
I don't think it is over yet, a few cards up the sleeve to be played :}

[Bumpfoh]

As I alluded to before, the A380 criteria process was MEL centric

Well F#@K ME, there's a change for the rest of the QF network, something that isn't SYD centric for once.:E
Sorry but had to point that out for you that particullary in engineering there is constant QF SYD centric policy and procedure rammed down the rest of the networks throats that isn't necessarily for the better and in the past a lot of ALAEA policy was very SYD centric.

Taking cover now!

BTW the rest of the post I agree with.:ok:

[rudderless1]

What's the issue? Is the CSC an improvement on the suck to rise policy.
Is it a better policy than currently in place? I think so.
Is it fairer? I think so.

The concerns of the so called useless people "unsuitable" for training being selected due time since last course factor? Well this only happens if they apply, and their natural tendencies of avoiding responsibility would reduce their interest and likely hood anyway especially for such difficult training. If they do what's the difference to now?

I certainly don't see a larger proportion of deadwood in the mix. Probably less.

So for the "Life's About Me" Lame's, struggling on a full compliment of recent training, get a grip,your biggest concern is now is how to spend the payments you are already receiving whilst others wait for training and deserve a shot. Bummer you have to share eh!

I would anticipate any course selection criteria of this nature for current types and in normal situations in the future would be by crew/section groupings which would obviate some of the bizarre concerns raised over this special in more ways than one A380 situation:ok::sad:

Forward with fairness, share the love.:)

[the rim]

well rudderless1 i do agree with your post,but we have all forgotten about the graded wage structure now the lower grade lame's who are not getting any training are advancing every four years without training they are now reaping the benefits of a system that most poo pooed when it was introduced and lets face it most people dont get training every four years :ok:

[rudderless1]

Just to recollect and comment-
I for one "poo pooed" the system at the time and still do.
The graded structure failed on its key point of recognising "experience" in the industry, which was intended to be essentially time as a LAME (even though still a lacking and crude method but far superior than everyone starting in 1997) was sold for 2% payrise and with a 50% vote!

Rim you forget also the two grades the great new system cost "new LAME's" so whilst these newbies may now be finally equalising due to cappings but the volumes of cash lost in the period short paid will still take some time to recover.

This structure also discourages people to leave and mature their skills or live elsewhere and come back. Quit restrictive and discriminatory really.

How many years should an old LAME be paid a premium before the young catches his benefit. Ie when do they peak? This is where the issue is more about d1ck size than anything else. Is it that bad being capped at level 12 or 13 with options for training.:ok: If it was about levels and cash Team A380, or various senior levels bypass the cappings!

The graded wage structure is a loyalty system, not much else really. That's what was voted for in 1997. The pitfalls were seen then and the LAME's that voted for it and creamed at the start at the cost to the new are now copping it in the end. (sorry for the freudian slip)! Fairs fair.

I don't think it benefits the company nor the skill base but they wanted it. GWS deters talent from applying and deadwood from leaving.

Sorry for the thread drift.:oh:

CSC is one step toward improving the system fairness, a new pay structure that recognises experience and encourages training and stimulates the idle would be another.

[griffin one]

well the scores are in. Let the games begin, basically if you have sat on your hands for the past eight years then congratulations, You have made the seventy five people who will now be drawn from a hat for the twenty or so positions. let us now ponder will the same criteria be used for future vr/cr, will it be used when sio overstaffed move to base/sdo, will it be used as a performance appraisal tool.will it know be used for all future training ? ie, sio A330/737new/gen which is about to start.
well done to the succesful candidates.

[another superlame]

This new system is absolute crap as most people seem to agree. If they use this system for all future training then most of us will be at a loss. I am glad the old matey system is going but this new ALAEA (melbourne centric) system is not fair end equitable.
Just because you have not had training for 8 years means you get a 25 point head start. It doesn't matter that the person is not the most driven or motivated, it doesnt matter if that person uses sick leave for annual leave, it doesnt matter if that person has been a cluster ph*%k for the past 10 years. Just as long as they havent been trained they get a head start.

And then we have the problem of inconsistent scoring. If it is true that the SIT seniors are using the union preferred scoring system of 4 and 5s then this is not a true representation of the individual being scored which is just crap.

The only way around this is for all the unsuccessful applicants to submit a grievance and hopefully this will send a message to the powers that be.

I know that this system is endorsed by the ALAEA but they need to take a good look at what they asked for as most of the members af far from happy with it.

[MJ2]

As a worker from mel I can tell you that this so called mel centric course selection criteria was not well liked or well received process! And as another superlame mentioned it was an alaea agreed/conceived process .It penalises anyone one who is keen and wants to get ahead by buying a type course,and looks after someone who sits on their hands not putting any input in with the magic 25 points!
And for the union to push the 4/5 scoring on the rest of the questions for everyone,leaves no room for anyone obtain a competitive score.So are they really that blind to think that all LAME'S are the same??
Also why is it all a big deal now that syd is involved? noone was concerned when mel was being put through this process?;)

[the rim]

read my previous post about boofheads getting training before people who have the drive and know how ....aka the graded wage is good for the boofheads...this system by the alaea is flawed ...do not take bolt ons into account as they are not anywhere near a full payment and as for the person doing an outside course well the old school alaea[mel] frowned upon anyone doing external training as it negated QF's ability to maintain the upkeep of lame numbers....yes i know that the GWS is not so good for the line guys but for heavy guys only working on one or two types it dilivers a pay increase over a number of years and they would have not got that in the old system

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just out of curiosity - would you guys prefer a system were the company just picks who they want/has interviews to decide who gets trained?

Do LAMEs think that the ones who have not been trained for a long period of time should have an advantage or is it better that they have to lobby for a course along with those who have had ample training?

Have any of you ever missed out on a course in the past because you weren't in "the club"?


ALAEA Exec is meeting tomorrow and Wednesday, all these matters will be discussed so please provide feedback over tonight and tomorrow.

[another superlame]

I have missed out on a course because my father wasnt the Duty Engineer or because I didn't go boating or golfing with the Leading Hand or foreman, so yes I agree that we needed a better system but I don't think this new one is the one.

Too often in this company you get nowhere from showing initiative and once again this is the case. The whole scoring system is open to abuse and misinterpretation so at the end of the day it seems that is is going to come down to time since last course.

This I believe disadvantages those members who have never done a company course. Yes I know that they are better off than those whose courses have not been recognised ,but why not have an extra concession for those who put in their own time effort and funds to further their careers.

This new system also doesn't recognise those individuals who have put in the time and effort to study and attain their cross trade basics. A lot of guys have down the extra work hoping it will give them a leg up to team 380.

The initial selection criteria for team 380 was an MA or cross trade basics as minimum to even get a foot in the door. Although it is widely known that the manager of the day could bypass this step and select the faces he wanted, so in seeing that the way forward is cross trade basics some driven individuals have gotten some or all of these thinking it will would surely help come EOI time.

But this is not the case, the goalposts have been moved again and no-one has been told.

So at the end of the day yes there is a new system in place to overcome a lot of the historical course selection problems, but will it work and will the outcomes be any different from the status quo?

I doubt it and going by the talk at the jetbase most other people feel the same.

Fed Sec I hope this is adequate feedback.

[duderanch]

I applied and will prob miss out as my last course was not long ago. But I will be glad that someone who hasn't been trained for ages will get it ahead of me instead of some suckhole or 'clubber' as is the past system of selection. Lots of winging on this post but no suggestions of a fairer system? I think you boys with carpet burns on your knees are realising all that sucking up has been a waste.

[mahatmacoat]

So if you haven't been trained for 8 years you get a 25% headstart on a guy who has had a course in the previous 3 years. Well bugger me, what an inovative idea. Two trains of thought from the crew, having heard both sides I interpret them as follows -


Im am great, yes great I am, better than everone else in base. I've spent a year helping the company on a special project to make the company more efficient. I went and bought a course to save the company money. I work faster than everyone else because I run between jobs. I am also a big man and when I tell the coneheads to get out of my way, they always move so I can get my job done first and that lazy dog in the corner who reads the paper at lunchtime instead of planning the afternoon work is now getting a head start on me for nothing. Kev said he would look after me and that has been taken away. How dare the union take away my opportunity to shine.
I got a course last year so of course he deserves a chance, he hasn't been trained for 8 years.Now I am no rocket scientist but I can work out which option is morally correct. I don't like this new system because it only gives the poor mongeral who constantly gets overlooked an additional 25%. It should be 100%.

[the rim]

yes i think that some have missed out on training for not being in the matey club but in a class of 18 it might only be 2% of them so the others got there on their own and yes i think that time between course's is the major item for being selected for your next course....bolt-on's are a thing of the past as we dont have any [or little] other operators to worry about andI have posted enough about external training

[Reiak]

This new selection system has already failed. Talk around the place yesterday is that SIT guys are scoring high and that base guys are scoring average, dont know about SDT, how is this a fair and equitable system?
Whoever heard of a system where your old employer gets to rate you and decide if you can move on to your new job. If your'e not a great worker you can be scored high to get rid of you, if your'e a valued worker you are scored just low enough to ensure you can't be lost to another section.
Its difficult, based on the scoring criteria to argue that you were unfairly rated!
The company are the ones who built these walls between work (A/C type) areas and now their system is biting us all.
At this late stage probably the best option is to scrap the current rating system and send the 135 names to Team A380 and let them pick whoever they want as it's their train set. Their new manager probably doesn't know too many of us and will have to rely on his Ops Managers and Leading Hands for the best selections as they know best who they want.:confused:

[Bootstrap1]

Reiak

Very well said, couldn't agree more.

[mahatmacoat]

Yes Reiak well thought out. Who do I have to suck up to, Cameron is it?

[Reiak]

Too late to suck up.

They know what you were like 1 to 2 years ago before the A380 section was formed.

[The Mr Fixit]

Oh what's that sound ?.............
Is it Violins ?.............
Yes it's violins playing sad sad music for all the company stooges and management sucks who have just been foiled in their attempts to undermine the majority of the LAME membership at Qantas
To all those ladder climbers, backstabbers, under the desk lads what a crying shame

People who do outside courses deliberately undermine the natural order of course progression to advance only one person.....THEMSELVES, this allows the company to train LESS people, all you mechanical and avionics men/women who have missed out on a course in the past ten years look to your left, look to your right, those lames that did outside courses !@#$%^& you over !!!!!!!!

Those who do outside category basics do so at the expense of other LAMEs if you're not a johnny come lately you'll remember that we once had five cats now we have two and even now people are driving for one cat, talk about cutting each other's throats for only one reason MONEY

As far as I'm concerned as a thirty years plus employee in this industry I see a union that is finally standing up for the little guy who continually gets worked over by the management, their pets and special project tools now has a chance of being recognised. I have worked alongside men who are exceptional LAMEs who are continually overlooked for training by the DMMs and the Manager. I believe these are the men who deserve the training ahead of the ahole who goes outside to train, the wannabe who does out of trade basics, the suck whose the member of the yum cha club, the special projects tool who never does shift...........etc

Fed Sec, I support this A380 Course selection iaw your recent notice.
Bring on the rest of the fleet

[another superlame]

So Mr Fixit what you are saying is that we should all wait for the company to train us, no one should show initiative and anybody that does is a suckhole.
That is a bit rich.
The out if category basics bit, well the industry is changing whether we like it or not and I don't a few QF LAMEs doing extra basics has influenced that change.

The only people who did them before were the as you put it yum cha club members or the special projects tools.How is that fair? Why should these "wannabes" be penalised for doing a bit extra.

As I have said before I agree a new system is needed to overcome all this crap but they have moved the goalposts halfway through the game, and it seems not everyone is playing the game fairly or playing the same game.

And yes it is good to see the union stand up for the little guy, but in this instance the little guy is still being overlooked.

I dont think it will ever be 100% because you can't please everybody all the time, but it needs improvement.

Before the next course EOI comes out, be it for 380,330 737ng or 787 this system needs to be sorted with a set of rules that wont change during the selection process. Hopefully that will allow people to know where they stand from the beginning.

[The_Big_Pratt]

Do LAMEs think that the ones who have not been trained for a long period of time should have an advantage or is it better that they have to lobby for a course along with those who have had ample training?

Have any of you ever missed out on a course in the past because you weren't in "the club"?FedSec,

I disagree with the logic that ‘no course for a long period = insufficient training’: Looking-around my section, the vast majority of those who will benefit from the 25% will be triple-licensed already (mainly 747, 744, 767).

In this respect, the points system will benefit those who are, in a way, “in the club”.

Most might not mow the manager’s lawn (although they exist), but when there was training, they were often either lucky (right section, right crew) or sufficiently well-connected to be put on course in front of others, who had waited their turn.

For the younger crowd, there are plenty of guys with 20 years’ service who are triple-licensed, versus plenty of guys who, at around 15 years’ service, have a single type. A bit of a skewed distribution, don’t you think? And if the the lucky ones managed to get all their training in first, then they'll be getting a first look-in this time as well.

I well remember some blokes going straight from one course to the next, leapfrogging over either a LAME who was waiting their turn, or an AME that was eligible for their first type. These licensed-up blokes then went on to get a great many lurks and perqs at a time when the number of licenses held was the determining factor in everything. Sure, they deserve more training, but there are others who need it more, and have waited. “Time since last course” simply doesn’t measure this.

IF the time since last course criteria had been applied all these years, it would work fantastically now: But it hasn’t been, so you are keeping the playing field uneven. I agree that if we could get to a stage where the time-since-last was the only criteria, that’d be great, but in the meantime you have to somehow compensate for previous inequitable distribution.

Suggestion: A percentage score, for example 25%, could have been included in addition to the score for time since last training – but instead, base it on courses/years of service. Most in QF deserve training, but if you’re going to target the training to the least advantaged, then this would be the way to do it. I reckon, unfortunately, that >1 course per 10 years’ service in QF indicates a (relatively) lucky individual.

Even more accurate would be counting only those years of service where you were eligible for a type course (all basics held). Disadvantage: Another dip into eQ; Advantage: It would not skew the benefits to those who hadn’t bothered to get their basics for many years.

[Ngineer]

Congratulations to all those successful applicants. Wishing you all many happy years working on such a large and brilliant piece of technology, with a wonderful team on a shift pattern that could change at any moment.

Wish I could be there, but am still recovering from the welts caused by the A38O security guys beating me away with a stick. (Still embracing the spirit though!)

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Love your work Ngineer.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[Long Bay Mauler]

So Mr Fixit,you seem to have a problem with those that have taken the initiative to train themselves.

Thank God I dont follow your small minded, communist views, as today I would most likely have been made redundant whilst waiting for Qantas to train me.My career would have stagnated whilst all the glory boys got the training,and then when all the Ansett refugees came in and pipped me in the training stakes,I would have been kept down again.

So instead of leaving mine and my familys fate in the lap of the Gods,I decided to take control of my future and make sure I had a future.

If I had listened to eye swivelling lunatics like you and believed your tripe,and there were plenty of you then and still are plenty of your type about now,I would not be making my weekly subs to the ALAEA,and more importantly,I would be on about a third of the wage I am now.

Your comments typify those bludgers who sit around all day whingeing to whoever will listen to your utter bollocks. I suspect that you are most likely a queer trade pushing the upper levels of the wage structure.

And if I am wrong and youre not in the upper levels, then I would still assume that you are Avionics. And if you arent licenced on everything by now that Qantas flys after 30 years in the industry, then the reason for your lack of training is simple really. Its YOU!!

At the end of the day,my licence is MY licence and not Qantas's,so if training LAMEs was simply left to Qantas or other carriers,and we werent able to train ourselves, we would probably be a lot further down the track of a licencing system where the employer totally dictates who is trained and how many "approvals" are issued by QA.

Maybe that is what worked in Mother Russia in the old days pal, but if it wasnt for organisations such as Queensland Aerospace,JTP and the like, then you would likely have a lot less guys out there as fellow union members,and we would likely see a much weaker system where we would now be hiring foreigners on 457 visas instead of employing Aussies in what is a good industry.

Looking forward to you having a "cry" in reply.

[Short_Circuit]

I disagree with the logic that ‘no course for a long period = insufficient training’: Looking-around my section, the vast majority of those who will benefit from the 25% will be triple-licensed already (mainly 747, 744, 767).

BUT have not had any training for 20 years !!!!! I think it is their turn, they have baby sat your like for that time waiting for a new type.:ugh:

[Jet-A-One]

This "time since last course" clause is rubbish!

While I can appreciate the intent to spread the licences more evenly over a wider number of LAMEs, to base the 25 points on just the number of years since your last course is flawed.

A simple system that divides the number of years you've had your basics by your number of company full type courses would be much more fair.

Bolt-ons, while not worth as much, do contribute to a LAMEs pay and hence should be worth 1/2 in this calculation. Current or not.

An outside course that a LAME has paid for himself should not count for as much as a company course but the fact that it also increses one's pay should mean it counts for 1/2 too. This recognises the effort and expense he has contributed but also recognises the increase in pay he recieves.

The current alocation of the union's 25 points does not seem fair when you consider the Super LAMEs that went from company course to course as soon as they were eligible, have since been racking up bolt-ons and now that the customer airlines have gone and their last few bolt-ons have dropped off the radar, they're next cab off the rank.

The number of licences you hold has to come into it. After all you can only sign one aircraft at a time.

[The_Big_Pratt]

BUT have not had any training for 20 years !!!!! I think it is their turn, they have baby sat your like for that time waiting for a new type.Firstly, I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to find ANYONE in QF who has 747/744/767 AND hasn't had training for 20 years. Such a person would have had to have been one of the first on the initial 744 courses, with 747 & 767 already in the bag. Some of the guys who retired in the last 5 years might've fit that description - but then are we counting DC-4 & 707 too?? :}

More importantly, if anyone like that DOES exist, they'd be on top of the pile for BOTH the 25% for time since last training, and the 25% for courses per years' service (3 courses/40 years = way less than 1 course/10 years = they'd beat everyone else in).

So, no disadvantage to the old blokes who haven't had as much training as they should for their years of service :ok:

TBP

[the rim]

:ok:spot on bugs and yes i am sure he is a conehead and sits at the top of the tree looking down at mech blokes saying how dare you go and get your conehead basics and try to be like me........his post was sh#t:mad:

[tjc]

At the end of the day,my licence is MY licence and not Qantas's

For all those very experienced heavy maint guys who were shown the door, I reckon they are happy with the above comments.

Qantas is not the only airline in the world.

[The Mr Fixit]

I threw some bread crumbs on the water around my line but lost bait, hook, line, sinker and rod in one foul swoop.

I apologise for whipping you into a frenzy Bugs your comments re communism and mother russia made my eyes swell with tears of days gone by.

Your opinionated degradation of the avionics personel re the 'queer' trade suggests you carry a rather large chip around on your shoulder

So Mr Fixit,you seem to have a problem with those that have taken the initiative to train themselves.

Yes I do have a problem, you just screwed over your supposed mates you work with and by the look of it you could care less oh how very LAME of you

My career would have stagnated whilst all the glory boys got the training,and then when all the Ansett refugees came in and pipped me in the training stakes,I would have been kept down again.


Yes the EACs did put a dint in training and their desire to 'do anything' the supervision wanted to secure the next course slot ahead of deserving QF candidates stuck in my throat also. As for the glory boys they are now ops managers or used dried pieces of skin left over from the dispute and will always be lurking in the shadows. As to being kept down how long had you been a LAME when this being held down occured and while we're at it how long did you spend as an AME after your APP finished

So instead of leaving mine and my familys fate in the lap of the Gods,I decided to take control of my future and make sure I had a future.


By your earlier degradation of avionics personel, I take it you are mechanical, a group that numbers almost 2/3 the engineers in QF but receives only approx. 3/5 the training. Yes as a whole you have been neglected, instead of turning your anger to a group that doesn't have a say in your training (Avionics) how about you turn it towards a group that does ....MANAGEMENT or are the coneheads too easy a target and MANAGEMENT too vindictive which lessens your bravery extensively.

If I had listened to eye swivelling lunatics like you and believed your tripe,and there were plenty of you then and still are plenty of your type about now,I would not be making my weekly subs to the ALAEA,and more importantly,I would be on about a third of the wage I am now.


Prior to the last election of the ALAEA thats exactly what you were doing
I would suggest after our last eba your actually doing better than ever

And if I am wrong and youre not in the upper levels, then I would still assume that you are Avionics. And if you arent licenced on everything by now that Qantas flys after 30 years in the industry, then the reason for your lack of training is simple really. Its YOU!!


What an a typical comment from the X generation 'Me Me Me" there are a large amount of mechanical men and some avionics men (not alot) out there who have been here twenty years plus done the right thing worked hard day and night and do not have all the Qantas types for one simple reason... Qantas didn't train and then self serving pr!ks went outside and did courses that removed the company's need to train them. I would also like to know how long you have been in the industry as I said I, thirty years (nearly) four qantas types an average of 1 type per 7.? years of company service 6 years since my last course. Care to offer your story ?

At the end of the day,my licence is MY licence and not Qantas's,so if training LAMEs was simply left to Qantas or other carriers,and we werent able to train ourselves, we would probably be a lot further down the track of a licencing system where the employer totally dictates who is trained and how many "approvals" are issued by QA.

What a load of bollocks, company licencing has been with us for over ten years now since CASA did away with type licencing, Aviation is a closed industry, the company whoever they controls the aircraft they buy be very aware THEY HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO TRAIN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US they choose to ignore that obligation so they can pit us against other so we don't notice the 101 ways they are retarding this company, this industry and our future.

Maybe that is what worked in Mother Russia in the old days pal, but if it wasnt for organisations such as Queensland Aerospace,JTP and the like, then you would likely have a lot less guys out there as fellow union members,and we would likely see a much weaker system where we would now be hiring foreigners on 457 visas instead of employing Aussies in what is a good industry.

That is exactly what they have done, did it ever occur to you that Qantas actually set up and funded each and every one of these organisations (check where DC, DF, MB, JV are board members) to further their own ends of denying their workforce an opportunity to train and ridding themselves of training inhouse. 457 visas are being imported into this country under what auspices ? they don't have the technical capability Why ??? because they don't train their own people..... Australian citizens and by the way if Qantas had of been compelled to train more by the solidarity of men / women not going outside to train we would way better off. In reference to your last words 'in what is a good industry' by the feverence and bitterness in your post (not only to Avionics personel, communists, long serving employees but me :O also) it suggests to me that this is a tongue in cheek comment and you are not all that happy and you are certainly not alone there Bug-a-lugs.

[Syd eng]

Well Put, Mr Fix it.

Another 20+ years, one type Mech LAME here and probably no chance at this A380 either. 7 years since last course.

[Short_Circuit]

Firstly, I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to find ANYONE in QF who has 747/744/767 AND hasn't had training for 20 years
Come and have a look at SYD Base, there are plenty here long serving 747/744/767 licenced for, and some longer than 20 years with no new type, no 777 training, no 737 training, no A330 (except for a few Golden haired boys), no A380 training (because we did not work them in base!) also worked for years the arvo & E/N shift running SIT as the white overall boys went home at 14:00 and left it all to base, other operators worked but NO TAIL PAYMENT. Avionics & Mechanical trades!
FACT.. that gen X & Y will not compute..

I forgot to mention the 50% of Team A380 original LAMES were also 20 years plus with no training.

[Johnny V]

Training is and should always be at the behest of management after all they run the company you tin pot glory hounds should be content with the 130million you ripped from investors this last year. I once was proud to call myself an engineer, no longer, I now do not talk about what I once did.

[Short_Circuit]

Training is and should always be at the behest of management after all they run the company
Yeah, and look how much of a disaster that has turned out to be. :=

[qf 1]

Johnny v i too am glad you no longer call yourself an engineer,because you obviously have no idea what an engineer is worth.It's better for all that you are out of the industry,passengers and crew.:ok:

[Arnold E]

I would suggest to you that Johnny v doen't know what an engineer is, much less what they are worth.:ugh:

[Mr Qantas]

What a sad state of afairs it is come to now cause of the union. I warned all and sundry years ago that this group will ruin that airline and I coped a flogging on here. How right i was $130 million i hope they are proud and i read this about them taking the decison on training away from management you must be joking. It has ALWAYS been for managers to pick the best to get the more training. You take that away from management and put in the hands of those lunatics and you must be crazy. Who cares if the same lame does a few courses in a row when you have a star in your crew you got to keep him happy to keep him on the crew. I found it best to make certan that the ones that are not up to it dont get more licences cause you just cant trust them to perform. Qantas didnt get so good by promoting morons just cause they didnt get a course for 10 years. We just need the course to go to the best.

[The_Big_Pratt]

Come and have a look at SYD Base, there are plenty here long serving 747/744/767 licenced for, and some longer than 20 years with no new typeI know Base pretty well - and I can't think of a single person (still in Base) who is triple licensed and got the last of those three licenses 20 years ago (ie. in 1989!!). Even 15 years ago is a bit far-fetched, but there may be some of those. MAYBE.

Before you fly off the handle though, this whole argument could be incorporated into the selection process: Why not follow my suggestion and use the measure of courses/years of sevice (or years basics held) to rank people as well as using the time since last course. Make each of them worth an equal % at the top end, and I guarantee that it will sort-out who deserves what.

As for what you say about the long-suffering nature of the guys in Base - I couldn't agree more: Worst access to training, no access to bolt-ons, have to do the heavy-lifting for QF for both routine work and troubleshooting.. the list goes on. If you're looking for a fight on that topic, you're not gonna get one :ok:

That raises the question of how do you make training fair between sections? I'm not even gonna attempt to tackle that one (but I'd love to hear some suggestions :})

FACT.. that gen X & Y will not compute..I simply don't understand why you are having a shot at the younger blokes/chicks.
The older guys you're championing (who must have at least 30-40 years service) will presumably be at the front of the queue for this training anyway.

You seem to be saying that the older blokes should get training because they're, well, older blokes. I disagree with that. The younger blokes have been doing it hard as well. Like I said, your "20 years no training" is a myth: But it's a lot more comfortable to put-up with a stagnant career when you've got three licenses (and some training points) under your belt, than when you have ONE or NO licenses.

I forgot to mention the 50% of Team A380 original LAMES were also 20 years plus with no training.Not a real good debating point, they're trained now aren't they? Absolutely NO ONE got in before they did - definitely not those freeloaders from Gen X or Y - so it hardly seems to support your theory.

TBP

[indamiddle]

johnny v, my mate in management agrees cost was $130m at the time it finished but lost future revenue puts it well over $200m. cost per year of pay rise? $2m.
mr qantas, i work in another section of qf where advancement is at the discretion of mgmt so carpet burns are part of the process. then they wonder why the proverbial hits the fan with their golden haired boys/girls. advancement is not just based on ability.... to do the job! you guys do a great job, my life depends on it

[Ngineer]

How right i was $130 million i hope they are proud

You would be more correct in directing that loss to the personal issues of a certain someone (or people) against unionism, not the ALAEA. The ALAEA was only acting on the direction of a large majority of the membership. How people can deny a workforce a fair pay increase for many years and very generously pay themselves is beyond any decent person's moral comprehension.

The money lost that you refer too was simply a mismanaged union-bashing party. Is it any wonder people are so sceptical about the motives or hidden agenda's of our management these days?

I completely agree with your sentiments that this money would have looked better on our balance sheets. As too would the revenue of contracts lost whilst trying to save a few pennies.

[Big Unit]

Why is it everyone is talking about time since last training. Who gives a flying fcuk. How about effort and skill on the job over the last 5-10 years. Bludgers will always be bludgers. In the past they sat in the corner talking and doing sweet fcuk all. Just let them be as they were. Training should be based on merit as our policy manual states.

[the rim]

hey big unit.....too bad your ears are not as big this is what this thread is all about ...listen up .... who gets the training in the correct order is what we are on about and who makes the decision is the problem...i agree with you the most knowledgeable and best worker should get the most training but as long as he/she has not just come off a course and must wait till they pick up the licence

[domo]

the results are in and the phones are ringing. heard at least 4 base blokes so far

[Syd eng]

Any Surprises thus far?

[Pterois Volitans]

The selection process for these positions is #$$%^!
Why was it only open to current LAMES, I know for a fact there are currently AMEs with QF that have group 20/21 licenses and also full B1 licenses!! :ugh:these people where not allowed to apply. People talk about the unfair proccess for LAMES, that is nothing compared to how they are treating the AMEs. Please do not say it is due to experience or training as far as i am concered it should have been open to anyone with a license!! (Maybe the LAMES where protecting there own backs, as with no aircraft type training with QF they would have gained the maximum points!) The only light at the end of the tunnel, is that if these people leave Dom,SIT or base it "might" open up training course in other areas.
Regards
PV

[empire4]

if you have a full B1 licence and your at QF base then you are seriously wasting your time my friends. get out and move to a company that will train you like the rest of us. OH, i forgot........you might not be wrapped in cotton wool though.

[UPPERLOBE]

The situation regarding "licenced" AME's has always been the same at QF.

I have seen people who have held mulitiple foreign licences (not approvals) and who had been previously employed at DMM level at other airlines having to accept an AME position at Qantas, and the company would not always lift a finger to help them with CASA. I can go back to the late 1960's to blokes who held full UK ARB licences.

As far as QF AME's gaining licences outside the QF system goes, if QF don't want to pay you for it that is their choice, and you will in their eyes still be an AME.

Long gone are the days when they automatically accepted people getting a licence by means outside of QF and automatically reclassified them.

[another superlame]

After seeing the list of names, it was pleasing to see that the majority were younger guys who have out in the hard yards. Maybe the new system does kinda work. Although DMMs must score a perfect 75 after having 330 training 3 years ago. How else do you manage to score a slot with recent training.

Only 2 elec positions. Now that must really p!ss you off Fixit, seeing the greaser trades take over your black box replacements and globe replacements.

[The Mr Fixit]

The process of licence selection for the A380 has only ever been for LAMEs (QF approved) I don't think that will change and neither should it.
How many have been selected ? Any anomalies ? What areas ?
Yes I would be surprised depending on the number of lames selected which I don't know but seeing you have the inside knowledge and names, care to share ?
I will ask though if the shoe was on the other foot would you be as sarcastic as your last post or as bitter as your previous posts have been ?
For a time I thought we were in this boat together so much for solidarity eh brother.

[another superlame]

I thought we were in it together as well, but then you then you showed your true colours toward your brothers that trained themselves.
I am not privvy to any inside info, the names are now almost common knowledge at the jetbase, and no I will not be sharing their names on this forum. Surely you have some brothers in Sydney that would be able to pass on the information.

I would be very bitter if the list was populated by the yum cha club but it seems that is not the case, and sarcasm,well it is one of the many services I offer.

Would I be bitter if it was 90% elec trade selected,possibly,but I would get over it.Brother.

[the rim]

Well 'fixit" did we see solidarty when the GWS was introduced and you sat upon your high throne saying ....how dare they allow mechanical people into the upper grades....but now by the looks of things a few coneheads might miss out due to the B1/B2 system...sad i know but they would have not received a payment anyhow....:{

[Johnny V]

Rim / Another - None of your ilk deserve any payment for such an aircraft.
The pay structure was an aberration yes but not for the reason you bleat about, it was a aberration because it allowed idiots to increase their wages for doing nothing, idiots like you who now whinge about no training. You're right about the electricians being stupid they should've left the union years ago and set up their own they would be streaks ahead by now but theyre not as smart as they make out. B1 / B2 licencing, its funny I don't think you've read the A380 agreement with the statements you've made or you would see the stupidity of your statements.

[griffin one]

Congrats to the guys who made it through the selection process, have heard a few names and I am sure they will filter through over this week. For those like myself who missed the boat again, All we can do is hopefully look for 330 training somewhere in the future.

[the rim]

johnny V i am well aware of the A380 pay agreement but if you read into it they dont get the same as if it was another type in the old system but enough of that....they are not electricians any more they moved onto three trade groups...and i think they should be payed as such,but not to the extent that mr fixit thinks...so get with the times johnny V as you were one of them once...

[Ngineer]

You're right about the electricians being stupid

So let me get this right, we now take on more responsibility than the sparkie, but get paid exactly the same for a B1 in comparison to a B2.

Stupid? Methinks not........:rolleyes:

[griffin one]

From talking to the b1 and b2,s in A380 land b1,s get paid more then a b2, on licence on type only. b2,s still get paid more with their so called legacy licences. legacy is not a dirty word.

[The Mr Fixit]

I will remain resolute in my position re: outside courses - if you don't see how you fk over the guy sitting next to you it just shows you have learnt nothing and will probably learn nothing ..... I pity you for your greed, conceit and ignorance no matter how you justify your behaviour it remains the same.......disgraceful.

Rim I see you posted first in Jan 2008 about the same time as Johnny V (Feb2008), one a self adulating tool, the other a self centred tool, coincidence probably not but I will humour you regardless
Read the agreement Av $115 A380 ; Mech $115 A380 same licence payment no difference, the difference comes in the EASA payment not the licence payment. Now that each (rightly or wrongly) have moved to three cats we are getting paid approx. the same, it is fact.

In regards to what or not I believe we should be paid I will say this loud and clear
"Stop stepping on each others back to push yourself forward, nothing will come of it except discontent and misery. Your brother/sister is not the enemy it is the company and the system they employ and the sooner you realise you are being used as puppets by your manager the quicker the battle for equality will be won"

As I have heard too many times in our industry " Our own worst enemy is ourselves"

By the way Griff, legacy is a dirty word esp. in the company's eyes for they are the men/women who are redundant and not destined for training, mechanical or avionics.........................

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Just an information note. 23 candidates have been selected in Syd. 21 B1 (mech) and 2 B2 (AV).

I have spoken with management and assertained that it was not a case of all names in the same pool with the B1 coming out on top. There were 2 different pools and the airline made a decision to only train 2 B2 blokes.

This was not what was presented to the ALAEA in the meeting held before the 380 selections in Sydney began. We were told that the split would be 14/9 or 15/8, the final decision had not been made. We are still collecting other information regarding the selections and encourage you all to demand your feedback including your scores. A notice will be released when we know a little more.

cheers

[Ngineer]

Mr Fixit, could'nt agree more mate...:ok:

[Short_Circuit]

Now that each (rightly or wrongly) have moved to three cats we are getting paid approx. the same, it is fact.

Nothing wrong with that, its about time.

BUT!

23 candidates have been selected in Syd. 21 B1 (mech) and 2 B2 (AV).

Where is the equity here? :confused: Don't the Avionics & Radio break on the Big Bus?

[the rim]

Mr cannot fixit if you bother to read my posts I agree with you about outside course's,but and there is a but,avoinic people are trained on all company type[just by the numbers no fault of there own],and the mechanical people have to wait so, this is what drives them to outside courses. You must be joking to think that johnny V and I are one in the same,as one could assume that you are also using several nom de plume's.
Gives me a warm feeling that you would go to the trouble to look up my first post as well as JV's.


ps.how's that w.a.

[PitPin]

Its good to see that the company is finally getting the training balance correct .

[griffin one]

fedsec, I hope you will fight for the two names who were selected only to be removed and replaced with another two names after being told they had the job? Also will we know be using this criteria for future A330 &737 training slots in base and sio?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

If two members have been advised then later told that this was an error, firstly they need to contact us for assistance. We will be requesting that they ask for full disclosure of their scores and reasons that they were marked low if that was the case. We need that info to compare their score against the successful candidates. In a couple of weeks, the ALAEA will be sitting down with management to review and if needed, to refine the process. Remember it is still in a trial atm.

The CSC is only for A380 training and is activated due to a clause in EBA 8. Selection of candidates for other training such as 330 or 738 is still at the discretion of management. If management elect to use this system on other aircraft then that is their decision. Overall we think it better than the other options previously used such as the interview process or simply just having the golf or fishing mates selected. Having seen some of the names of successful candidates in this round, I note that many of them would not have been selected under a "jobs for the boys" system.

[Ngineer]

Its good to see that the company is finally getting the training balance correct .


I totally disagree. Just seems to me that the company have found this to be the cheapest way going forward. (ie; eliminate 1 trade and run on B1's).

I think just about everyone has had to sit there and listen to an MA guy jibber rot about a system he has been trained on, or read an erroneous tech log entry written off by an MA holder at some point in time. The other day I noticed an access defect written off as "nav database installation carried out" in the online tech system. Unfortunately this is becoming the norm.:yuk:

[PitPin]

An Av lame after approx 10 yrs service will usually have 2 or 3 types plus the massive 2 level jump for the radio payment . A Mech lame will have one type and more than likely a from training provided by an outside organization. The Mech lame will now be disadvantaged because he did an outside course. The Mech lame has missed out on training for a long time due to the larger employment numbers so its good to see the balance is now correct !

[Ngineer]

I think maybe someone is just a tad bit cut up over not getting trained on every licence type under the sun by QF. If you've missed training then join the club mate. But don't take it out on your fellow workers because it is not their fault.

To take another man's trade away because your cut up about your own training is pretty self centered. Your beef is not with them.

What a complete turn-around in the unity we were displaying together 12 months ago. Some people are pretty damn greedy.

[the rim]

ngineer its pretty easy to say that when looking from the top down....so take it easy, in one sentance you are saying lets all be one,but then you go off at mech lame's getting more on the white whale[a380] because of the MA,well thats the way of EASA the mech guy with the ma gets the glory while the AV guys get to do what they are payed for to do......and that sh$t about MA guys mouthing off about elect systems .....maybe if you took a wider interest in the whole aircraft you would have a better understanding of where the MA's come from,and what they were intended for in the first place,oooohhh sir we have a reading light out at 34a would you come out of the smoko room to fix it please so i dont have to get my dirty hands all over the cabin trim......thank you,but if i must change it and sign for it dont report me please

[tjc]

Are we going to go down that old track!
Its a debate that cant be won.

Why not give all suitable people the full B1 training regardless what trade they are?

There is scope in the agreement.

There are Mech guys out there with EIR licences aswell as EIR guys out there with Mech licences, including large a/c and lighties.

The next time you chat with any BA guys, ask them how the new style licences went for them.

[Ngineer]

oooohhh sir we have a reading light out at 34a would you come out of the smoko room to fix it please

Spoken like a true manager that knows little about maint. Unfortunately mate, if it was only reading lights and meal trays that broke I am sure there would not be a problem with the system.

[600ft-lb]

RE: The whole B1/B2 thing.

B2's are a minority in the new world of aviation licences for a reason. B1's can sign for almost all of the typical jobs that get done on this new breed of aircraft. It's just a quirk of the Australian system that our government body is as usual about 10 years too late to get on board what works very well everywhere else in the civilised world.

It does make sense to make the vast majority of licences on the 380 B1 because there simply isn't the work to do to keep the B2's gainfully employed from a manpower perspective.

If you want to argue about that, have a look around the world and see what Qantas are now modeling their licence requirements around. If it works well for everyone else, what makes us different here ?

We should feel somewhat lucky they haven't implemented the A licence's, there wouldn't be much B1 training going on at all in that case.

[Ngineer]

It does make sense to make the vast majority of licences on the 380 B1 because there simply isn't the work to do to keep the B2's gainfully employed

Nonsense. There are alot more Avionics on the newgen aircraft.

We should feel somewhat lucky they haven't implemented the A licence's, there wouldn't be much B1 training going on at all in that case.

Correct....because we don't want to affect your job security now, do we Jack?

Just give it time......

[KrispyKreme]

Well guys i think its only a matter of time until the Cat A lic will be in:=

Why do you think that the AME's had to do some more training before they joined Team A380,Is this so in the future they can get there Cat A Lic very easily and well if some of them took the carrot to get straight to level 12 after there time as a snork i think alot of them would take the carrot to get a Cat A lic as well. potentially reducing the amount of B1/B2's reqd

Anyhow time to get in the trench and take cover :eek:

[Oh Me Oh My]

I read the A380 agreement with interest hoping to be a part of the operation but after seeing it in action I had second thoughts and didn't. The tension it has caused here made me think I had made the right decision but now some of us guys here at SIT may be sent to the hangar I may well wish I had of.

[Johnny V]

Ooooo ..... you've stumbled on the master plan, what rocket scientists you are !. By the end of 2010 you'll see it come to fruition and most of you regardless of trade will be out of a job.

[griffin one]

I normally dont feed trolls (jonny v) But while ever those big silver birds have big round black tyres i think we will have a job for life, does this style of writing suit your pathetic little boy playground antics jonny ?

[Quill Shaft]

Had my reservations about the selection process but after hearing the names, I am very pleased. A lot of quiet achievers. And although management didn't get to choose their golden boys, I am sure they won't be dissapointed.
Well done guys...

Well done ALAEA & FEDSEC. Please keep your eye on the ball leading up to next EBA.

[Syd eng]

Only problem is a few "Maintenance Watch" types got it too. Pity we cant get the right guys to train that actually work and don't suck cock.

[Oh Me Oh My]

After seeing the names of who got what, while not knowing all of them I'd have to agree with Quill :ok:. I am happy to see more mech training as the company neglects us :mad:, I am suspicious though that the ratio of 10/1 is a deliberate step to open up the rift that the ALAEA had closed successfully during our PIA :=.

[Jet-A-One]

Some of you people need to do some research regarding the CAO 100.66 system before you shoot your mouths off on here. Five minutes on the CASA website would save alot of the BS some of you write.

Ngineer, you're right, there is alot more avionics on these new types- most of which can be certified by a B1.1 LAME. I suspect a ratio of about ten to one is about right. If a B1.1 guy can cover all Engine, Airframe and Electrical also LRU with BITE on Instrument and Radio how many B2 guys do you need on Line or even in Servicing?

[Short_Circuit]

a B1.1 guy can cover all Engine, Airframe and Electrical also LRU with BITE on Instrument and Radio

and they could, with a swipe of a pen, allow dentists to preform brain surgery even though they have no qualification or training to do so. They are both doctors aren't they? :rolleyes:
Doesn't mean it is safe or ethical to do it.

[kiwi engineer12]

and they could, with a swipe of a pen, allow dentists to preform brain surgery even though they have no qualification or training to do so. They are both doctors aren't they? :rolleyes:
Doesn't mean it is safe or ethical to do it.

Nonsense. B1 guys are trained and qualified to do so.

[Jet-A-One]

The new system makes more sense, especially in line maintenance, with one LAME being able to certify all tasks for 99.9% of turnarounds.

Any cone that's worth his salt will be trained to B2. Alternatively, there's no reason why you guys can't get your basic B1 MA to be eligible for a B1 type course. So don't stress fellas, I'll even give you a hand with your first lube:}

[600ft-lb]

and they could, with a swipe of a pen, allow dentists to preform brain surgery even though they have no qualification or training to do so. They are both doctors aren't they? :rolleyes:
Doesn't mean it is safe or ethical to do it. I fail to understand how the rest of the world is wrong in their aviation licencing.

How is Australia's relic system which has been all but abandoned around the world thereby making our licences virtually worthless to anyone except Australian employers (bar the odd ICAO system) actually a better way to do things. Seriously, box goes out, box goes in, lightbulb goes out lightbulb goes in. 99% of line maintenance defects rectified.

If I were running an airline, would I by choice have a dozen B2 licenced guys sitting in the smoko room waiting for some work to happen when the B1 guys can certify
for the same stuff ?

There may be this lingering superiority complex amongst some of you guys. My advice, move on and get with the times instead of fighting for the old system which has the true meaning of the word 'legacy'.

[ampclamp]

there is world of difference between being trained and having the experience and aptitude for any job.
some folks will have the knack, others will not, and it works both ways.

a/f eng guys have had a lot of avio privileges for a long time.many chose not to exercise them, some cant or are not interested for any number of reasons.
same goes for avio people some have it, some have not.

just cos the rest of the world is doing it does not make it right.

it makes it cheaper.over and out.

Few people I know have the ability to truly be expert in all trades on several types.Its a compromise.

Few of todays avio people could polish the shoes of a true radio lame and do not have the experience to tackle truly oddball snags that come along at times.They get fixed eventually but...it takes longer and can cost more.Yes we get by most of the time as the new system will too.
I could fix lots of eng / a/f snags too but I know that J Bloggs has been brought up on jeta1 and would fix it better and faster than me.

the rest of the world went to poo with a capital S because of shonky banking practices.
Oz system had better prudential regulatory structure, not perfect but better.(Pretty obvious where this is going.)

3 years ago the "experts" would have extolled the USA way of doing business and bemoaned lazy balance sheets (ie not enough gearing.)

Masters of the universe,sun gods the lot of those investment bankers.
The same clowns/journos/analysts are now all Mondays experts of the GFC and how the best way was a total sham.Pathetic fellow travelers.

Its just an analogy and wont change a thing, but maybe a toning down of the arrogance by some would be in order.You may get trained on something same as I could on another but you know jackshyte until you've logged quite a few years.

[tjc]

it makes it cheaper.over and out.


Here, Here.

Just look at what the B1 guy is getting paid for the extra privliges or should I say what they are not getting paid.

Seriously, box goes out, box goes in, lightbulb goes out lightbulb goes in. 99% of line maintenance defects rectified.


Come on there is more to it. Some of the B1 guys that are getting trained have gone from push pull technology to complex digital systems, software, servers and what not. A couple of weeks training doesnt cut it for me.

Some will be capable, some not, but it goes both ways.

The B1 guy will ask for help just as the current Avionic guy asks for Mech assistance from time to time.

How about a bit of equality, makes sense to me.

[NWT]

Reading this thread, I can see that Auss is following behind what UK/Europe has been doing with the JAR66 B1 & B2 licenses. What ever the rubbish the companies feed you aout how they have no plans to reduce staff etc.....just see what airlines in the UK have done. First the techs/mechs achieve their A licence, some airlines will pay extra for it some wont. However if you dont hold the A license then you employment prospects will be a lot more limited. And whenever redundancy situations arrise, you know who will be kept and who wont (this is already a reality for some staff in certain airlines). Once the A licensed staff have their limited approvals, the reliance on LAE is greatly reduced. Yes they are still needed but consider the avaerage line maintenance department, a lot of the LAEs work is the routine checks, now done by 'A'. Minor defects, such as blocked sinks, ovens, boilers, toilets etc, now all done by 'A's. LAEs left to concentrate on non-routine defects, troubleshooting etc. Great for the LAEs but remember there will be a lot less needed. As to B1 & B2, it has reduced the need for B2. B1 can sign for a lot more than ever, and if you think the company will keep as many B2 you are mistaken. We have seen this in airlines in Europe. A licence do the routine, small defects, B1 do the majority of other maintenance, few B2 left to cope with more involved B2 type work.
With the wonderfull UK CAA converting licenses from theold A&C, EIR etc many staff lost certain certification rights when converted over...lets hope CASA make a better job of the conversion.
We have seen this happen in Europe and seen the effect on numbers of LAEs so beware...

[changeawhell]

Fair point NWT, however being in europe i'm sure you'll know that a lot of the major airlines employ B2 guys who also hold full B1 licenses as well.
Qf have a system in place for B2 guys to hold full B1, check the allowance's appendix of our EBA and it's there.

The 'A' license issue is a major one and i'm sure QF are probably looking at it with a keen eye. To the sparkies out there if you hold your mech basics it is not hard to get a basic B1 as you have all the theory you need for RPL process, you just need to fill in a few worksheets to meet the competency gap between b2 and b1, same as we do when we are converting our A/F ENG to full B1 we only need the theory and electrical competencies. I'm sure in five years time when 20percent of our workforce retires and 50 new 787 and 15 380's arrive Qf will want guys who can basically hold B1 & B2 because at the current rate of attrition and lack of young people coming through, they are going to have a massive problem. Hopefully by then all the fighting amonst us will have gone.

[ampclamp]

hey changea,
we only fight with each other when the company has been brought to heel.

I look around syd and wonder where the hell are they going to get people to do maint too.hard enough to get parking spots let alone a hangar and arms and legs.
Every time I think of MH telling us the "new gen " aircraft self heal & require no spares.The manpower consumed by the pale whale is staggering compared to what the former eng bosses thought, and that was with a hand picked team.They'll need to clone B1 and B2 by the dozen the way its going.
I think jetstar need people too.

[Oh Me Oh My]

Spanner swingers say this, Sparkies say that it goes on and on
Grow up the company is shovelling us all down the poop shoot while we argue who is going to be the last one shovelling.

A380 agreement is clear, CASA's position not so clear (everchanging in fact just look at the website) instead of slagging off at each other keep an eye out for all LAMEs enemy the 'A' licence.

[Short_Circuit]

You blokes are your own worst enemies, (Life's all About ME) as M put it seems more true now than ever.

The Company must love this.... It takes more than 3 weeks to train a sparky or greaser to knows what he is doing.

4 year apprenticeship and at least 4 years on the job training before he is confident of a Type, on his own trade. I would love to see a greaser rewire a landing gear or repair the hundreds of wires blown out by an oxygen tank, or a sparky repair the hole blown out by an by an oxy tank.

It should not be, but this is where we are headed. Nothing but save a few bucks and screw the the lot of you.

Part 66 licencing may work on the line but come to home base, when it really needs to be fixed, a black box change, light bub change, wheel change etc etc does not answer the defect.

Jack of all trades does not FIX anything except the managers bonus.

[the rim]

i think you have "short circuited" yourself mate its only ment for line not base same as MA's you cannot use test equip only the stuff supplied onbd the a/c so get a hold of yourself its not about replacing YOU but in a line situation a mech bloke can use it to get home so you can fix it .......

[Jet-A-One]

rim-job's right, there'll be plenty of work for the B2s in the hangar. If you cones want to work the ramp you'll have to go the B1 route...

[changeawhell]

The rim your probably right, but the worrying thing for us mech's is that 90% of the sparkies at the SIT hold there mech basics, just a few basic worksheets and they are B1, and the other thing is the 380 course is run that the B2 guys sit in on the B1 course as well as the B2, there are numerous sparkies already holding B1 basic, not to many mech's.

[rudderless1]

There is a bit more to picking up a new trade or trades than a few poxy casa basic's!

If Lame's had more sense they would obstruct any system that undermines real trade training that just creates a bunch of pens that undermines the real trades and the campaign for maintaining safety and standards.

If you undermine the quality of your trade and licence a without proper training and experience a fair reward for your knowledge and experience associated with it will also reduce. A catch 22 really.

I am sick of short sighted bone head LAME's happy to play the system which is purposely being worked by companies via puppetering of CASA.

I understand the ALAEA is addressing the farce of ill qualified LAME's picking up trades without real underpinning knowledge or experience. Yes the very issue that plagues Europe and their Kellog's Licence's that undermines real LAME's over there.

Lame's with type licences after two weeks of training is a real concern. That's politics' and it sux but is being addressed. The FAA is realising it EASA is realising it. Hopefully CASA will grow some teeth.

Harmonisation is a joke if it has no standard enforced. It does not help if we make it work by slipping through the back door that's been left ajar and take trades without real qualification purposefully set to entrap you for your own demise.

Australia has the best system in the world which is being dismantled.

[tjc]

The FAA is realising it EASA is realising it. Hopefully CASA will grow some teeth.

Unfortunately CASA will stumble and fumble like the other reg bodies. The airlines will push the 'economic' line and we know what happens next.

Australia has the best system in the world which is being dismantled.

And should we say safest. It may be old, but it works. And remember, large RPT aircraft are not the only aircraft that fly in Austarlia.

[Short_Circuit]

rudderless1, I am happy to see there are others out there in lame land that can see past their ego's and see the erosion of our licences.

A380 is the start of the end. The others will find out all be it too late to stem the rot.:ugh:

[the rim]

oh dear...i dont think you blokes have got it yet.....yes we have the best system for LAME's.... buuuut its about to be undone and we will go to the EASA system sometime next year with a sunset clause for ALL LAME's to be transfered to the EASA system in a period of time. Cat A's will be introduced and most B1's[not all] will find themselves in the hanger with the B2's.....this does not mean I agree with it, but just stating facts....we [the union]should get the cat A's in the union so we can have some control over the use of them rather than say ....we are not having them...the rest of the world uses this type of system we will not be able to hold it back....and hey like I said I dont want it but face facts,it will happen

[FMU]

Rim, finally, a sensible post in this thread. Thankyou. I have resisted posting to now. This is not about MECH vs AV, B1 vs B2. The FACT is that CAO 100.66 is here, and very shortly CASR66 will be the licencing system in place. No ifs, no buts- it is a fait accompli. Too late now to bitch about it- you all should have done that years ago when it was first proposed and there was the chance to submit your objections to CASA.
'A' licences are coming. For the company they are very attractive as they will require less training on their part. The ALAEA should embrace the 'A' licence holder as a LAME, and ensure that these licence holders are suitably recognised and renumerated in future EBAs. To do otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and be in denial of what is inevitable. The LAME licencing landscape is changing, and you better adapt.

[changeawhell]

Rim bold thoughts but true, your prob right most guys will eventually convert there licenses but however it is goin to be complex for people to convert there type ratings to full B1, the LMA training won't cover it as B1 is full elec privliges and the gap training will be to much. Don't think we will see our current types apart from the 380 certified under the Part 66 system however once the 787 arrives most of the 744 and 767's will have gone and yes then full speed ahead for an "A" license tarmac with a few B1's there. I believe the only guys who prob could get a full B1 on the 744 are the Avionic guys who did the mech LMA a few years ago and hold full A/F ENG credits for the 744, apparently a couple of them have converted them to full 5 cat licenses??.

[FMU]

Changeawheel, we will ALL be transitioned to the CASR66 system, as the current CAR31 system will no longer exist. What will happen is that your current licence will be "grandfathered" and you will be issued with, say, a B1.1 "limited" licence that will still encompass your current licence priviledges, but exclude you from those extra electrical ATAs that you have not been trained on. You just need to look at how this system has been introduced in other parts of the world to see our future. i.e. the B1.1 licence is the preferred licence of choice for a line maint organisation, with just a handful of B2 licences to provide that necessary AV support. Heavy or Base Maint is the land of the 'A', B1 and B2 licence.
I'm not advocating one licence system over another, or have a preference for AV or MECH. I'm just trying to state what will be inevitable.
There is no replacement for a AV LAME with 20 years of experience, nor is there any replacement for a sheetmetal worker with 20 years of experience, nor a greaser with 20 years of experience in door rigging, flight control rigging and engine running. Everyone has there own particular set of skills. No-one is a jack of all trades.

[rudderless1]

Chicken Littles everywhere! To many years under Dixon me thinks.
The sky is not falling.
Remember the A380? 12 to 24 LAME's to introduce M said. Good one M, go an drive your trainset, try not to break it.:yuk:
The A Cat, well where are these coming from? They still need a brain, brains cost money, they still need training, training costs money, they can't troubleshoot, they can't supervise, turnarounds are short, time is money.
I guess we will convert all the AME's to CAT A's oh hang on you need AME's to start with isn't there a problem, I know we will pay them less? I guess we will attract mindless scum on less pay than an AME to be a CAT A for more responsibly not to mention SAFETY? That'll work! Guys wake up:ugh: Have some confidence, be smart and stop the undermining of you valuable licence by shortsighted LAME's taking advantage of your trades and watering them down at the same time.:sad:
Aircraft break, aircraft need fixing, and the bigger they are the more they cost when they stop.
Also is a CAT A really going to bust his hump to undermine a CAT B? I doubt it. B is where he wants to BE (that could be a LAME cliche')
Will a CAT A get paid less than an AME, I doubt it. Think about that one its not real hard.
But a CAT A needs only a CERT 2, an AME is a CERT 4 why would they pay him more? No where in the world do they pay him a CAT A less, usually between and AME and B1. I'd be a bit pissed if I trained for four years and a monkey gets a gig in your area for more money and less training when I am totally capable of doing the role! So I guess any AME would there for expect to be an A CAT, its obvious really and since its a Licence, hmmmm well I would be certain that is ALAEA territory.
Catch 22 really, I hope LAME's do pull there collective heads out of the sand, the FUD was clearing but here we see it has returned, I thought we got rid of that some time ago? Didn't we vote and change few years ago from the rhetoric we knew wasn't true!:=:D
Come on LAME's don't be LAME AGAIN!:mad:

[Ngineer]

Too late now to bitch about it- you all should have done that years ago when it was first proposed

The submission process that CASA put in place had plenty of response, however, it was just a formality put in place for a system that CASA wanted implemented.

B1.1 licence is the preferred licence of choice for a line maint organisation, with just a handful of B2 licences to provide that necessary AV support. Heavy or Base Maint is the land of the 'A', B1 and B2 licence.


Not under the current Qf system of maint.

[FMU]

Ngineer, you are correct. But it IS too late to bitch about it. All we can do is learn to make the most of it. And the current QF system of maintenance will need to change to take in the new CASR66 regs. There is already plenty of movement in this area. eg. the splitting up of the QEPM into the EPM, MCM and the AAOP. Go have a talk to someone from QS & RM. Change is coming- there's no stopping it. So as LAMEs we need to embrace these changes so that we, as a group, can obtain the best outcome for ourselves and for future LAMEs ie. the apprentices and AMEs who will obtain part 66 licences as their 1st licence. Us current LAMEs are going to be stuck in a "transition" period, but for the LAMEs of tomorrow part 66 will be all they know. We need to get onboard to secure our own future and the future of the LAMEs of tomorrow.

[the rim]

yes they did complain about it .....i remember tim H telling us that we should embrace the cat A's as they will be comming and will boust the numbers in OUR union,and we will be able to control them.....as for "brainless1" idear that the pay system will hold them back...remember that a cat A will only have to do a few years to become one as a full AME will still have to do four years so there is the carrot for them get in early and receive a payment earlier...mmmmm sounds nice..and yes FMU all present LAME's will be turned into B1&B2's ....hey with a payment,now I can just see a EBA ...get a payment for becomming a EASA type LAME and agree to cat A's ....let me get some feed back on that one....:(

[Jet-A-One]

As some have already said, it's past the point of no return for CASR66.

No doubt the company's goal is to train most current and new AMEs to A licence supplementing the B1 and B2 LAMEs with the obvious wage savings that will bring. Hopefully, with fleet expansion and so many guys close to retirement age there won't be too many current LAMEs displaced.

We (the ALAEA) should embrace the A licence "LAMEs" with the aim of minimising the pay diference between an A and the equivalent full B1 or B2, establishing quota control and bolstering membership.

[the rim]

yes jet-a .....the number of LAME's who will be signing off over the next few years will pave the way for cat A's and we should have them in our fold

[rudderless1]

Rim,
Best you read my post again,
no need to get offensive, the fact is there is only so little a person will work for and be capable of doing a job! QF or other airlines can't attract or certainly retain any decent AME's on the money they pay. I thought you may have noticed this?
A CAT's take more responsibility, though less trained but facts show they still draw atleast the same but generally more than an AME in income, can you see the problem yet?
A Cat's are coming, so what, is there a "real benefit"? In my opinion not really. In 35 minute turnarounds with most of that lost, do you waste those valuable moments seeking a B cat? A CAt's will be AME's reallocated by default, the only difference is who will represent them.
A Cat's are not for the hangar either, period.
Yes, I embrace the new system, mech's to B1 and av's to B2 + B1 limited, nice crossover in the middle to allow the flexibility of personal provided real training and qualifications are received. No one's toes are stepped on, equal remuneration for equal scopes of work.
Nothing much will change in a hurry, the aging workforce will be seen safely to the door without any angst. New comers will be trained, the longer the company waits the greater the pain will be for the company. :ugh::ok:
Don't know about redundancies, they may just have to wait.
Things are changin' but in aviation we always know it will be slow and painful and generally wrong:(.

[Jet-A-One]

If most AMEs end up with an A licence and in the association it would make it very difficult for the company to implement a scab force that relies on AMEs for arms and legs in future disputes...

[another superlame]

Good point Jet A1. More numbers can only be a good thing.

Now about that scab workforce that is slowly filtering back into base maintenance.................

[Bootstrap1]

Now that the 380 LAMEs jobs are all sorted, what is the latest with the AME jobs?

[AtALoss]

It is about time this thread needs re-activating.
Just heard this through grape vine.

Management buffoons in MEL have asked for expressions of interest in next round of A380 training. As I understand it, no change from last time in regards to acceptable applicants. Still using same process at last time.
Does this mean more lies and deceit from local Management and Domestic Supervision?
Stay tuned.... (Same bat channel)

[Oh Me Oh My]

A380 training, if that ahole AP got a run in A380 mgt all the puppets will be lining up whether it's Mel or Syd, buggery campaign continues

[Bootstrap1]

I thought AP (or little slicker) was no longer part of A380. The position he holds is some made up management spot generated by his mentor. I might be wrong.

They should put him back on the tools to make him earn the training they gave him, so that in the company's time of need he will have half a clue what he is signing out. It would be interesting watching him squirm having to work under people he has shafted.

[Bumpfoh]

Successful MEL applicants apparently announced, surprised no one has started whinging yet!:E