Private Field Special Permission

[rollix]

Hi Guys,

I've been reading the Spanish AIP, and section gen 1.2 says:

Para aterrizar o despegar en cualquier lugar no declarado aeródromo abierto
al tráfico aéreo civil será necesario un permiso especial de la Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea.

I've tried to search about this special permission, but found nothing.
Also the DGAC didn't replied my emails.

There is someone who know something about how to require and obtain this permission?

Also, the permission is limited to only one specific airfield, or once issued it allows you to use every private field in Spain?

I was thinking to make some time building in Spain (prices are really cheap), but being limited to only official (and congested) airports it wouldn't be a good thing.

Thanks in advance!

[LH2]

I think you are misinterpreting the AIP. The section you quote deals with authorisation for off-field landings--you do not need anything other than the owner's permission to land at any declared airfield, private or not.

Also the DGAC didn't replied my emails.

Never dealt with them, but they have a reputation of being absolutely useless. Writing to them in English is not going to help matters either, as I doubt many people there can understand a foreign language.

From the AIP it appears that it would be the AESA, not DGAC who would be in charge of this anyway.

I was thinking to make some time building in Spain (prices are really cheap),

Compared to what? They do not seem to different from those in the UK these days, with the low Pound and all. Be wary of anything looking too good to be true.

but being limited to only official (and congested) airports it wouldn't be a good thing

Congested? A few of them in the summer along the coast, yes Ok (and those are probably notamed as no VFR anyway), but generally speaking finding a congested GA airport in Spain is the exception more than the rule.

In any event, you do not need any sort of official permit to land on airfields other than those run by AENA.

Hope this helped.

[rollix]

Many thanks for your exhaustive reply.

I've somehow thought that all the aerodromes not enclosed in the first AIP AD 1.3 ÍNDICE DE AERÓDROMOS table were somehow not considered "aeródromo abierto
al tráfico aéreo civil".

That impression was suggested mainly by the separation of private aerodromes, that are listed in a second table.

Good thing to know it was a misinterpretation of mine.

About DGAC and AESA, I've wrote to both of them just to be sure, with no reply at all.
They were probably too busy playing minesweeper, like their italian ENAC colleagues by the way =D


For what regards prices, here in Italy flight clubs have the courage to ask more than 160€/h for a C152 and 180€/h for a PA28.

Also, in some airports aviogas is sold at 3€/l or even more, so time building abroad is not an option for me.

80€/h + fuel (1-1.45€/l) + taxes for a c172 in Madrid Cuatro vientos seems pretty good.

By official airports I meant the biggest ones (that probably see VFR traffic as an issue in some moments).
But since limitations on the use of private fields doesn't exist I would say that this is no longer a problem.

Thanks again for your help!

[LH2]

I've somehow thought that all the aerodromes not enclosed in the first AIP AD 1.3 ÍNDICE DE AERÓDROMOS table were somehow not considered "aeródromo abierto
al tráfico aéreo civil".

I haven't double-checked before writing this, but I believe those in AD 1.3 are the aerodromes run by AENA (i.e., the State). For some reason only those (and LXGB :)) are/were listed in the AIP.

For what regards prices, here in Italy

Sorry, I didn't know you were from Italy. You have my sympathy and in that case, yes of course, Spain will feel like a real bargain.

80€/h + fuel (1-1.45€/l) + taxes for a c172 in Madrid Cuatro vientos seems pretty good.

To be honest, that's not too much of a bargain. I don't know which model C172 that is, but working on 10-11 USG/hr, that's about €50 in fuel per hour, for a wet total of €130/hr. If you are buying a block (say 25+ hours) that would be either the going price elsewhere, or you could negotiate down to €130 and perhaps a bit less.

Unless you're already familiar with LECU and are happy with it, I suggest you avoid that place like the plague. Due to the number of GA movements there, the equipment they use (or rather don't) and the quality of their ATC, it's an accident waiting to happen (they already have had their fair share of mid-airs actually). I also found the crowd there to be rather unpleasant--a bit too Top Gun-ish for my taste.

I don't know their latest prices, but you will probably be better off asking either Fly-in-Spain or Aerodynamics Malaga (Google for websites) even if they will be a bit more expensive in principle (e.g., have you asked who pays should you bend the Cuatro Vientos aircraft?) Failing those, I'll try asking a couple places in Spain which cater to locals mainly, what are their latest prices and availability, but no promises.

Other than that, I've heard Portugal might be an interesting option, but I've no personal experience.

[cleartouchandgo]

Ciao Rollix, I occasionally fly from LECU and finished my PPL at Fly-in-Spain...which I recommend.

This time of year is probably not ideal for LECU, but if you intend to visit, send me a PM (mandami due righe), I'd also like to build up some hours this year.

Saludos
CTG :ok:

[rollix]

Here I'm used to fool prices, and 80€+fuel+taxes seemed to be good to me, but if you say that I can get better quotes I believe you on word.

I don't know about the C172 model, I've just been taking a look around and found several ads like this one:
MIL ANUNCIOS.COM - Alquiler horas de vuelo c 172 desde 80€ (http://www.milanuncios.com/otros-aviones/alquiler-horas-de-vuelo-c-172-desde-80-6388201.htm)

Also I've been proposed a PA-28-161 Warrior for 124€/h with fuel, but since my current PPL training involves only Tecnam P92 and C172 I guess some hours of familiarization will be required.

This could mean (since I'm planning to fly 10-15 hours in 3-4 days) that instead of flying around europe I will be "relegated" to Cuatro Vientos for a few days, and since I was planning a raid, probably with friends, this could be a problem.

This would force me to limit my choice to a C172, which would grant me an (almost) immediate availability of the plane and freedom of flight.

About LECU no, I've never been there before, and as you describe it, it resembles exactly the kind of place I would like to avoid.

Fly-in-Spain seems to be a really good deal, but Jerez de La Frontera is too far and difficult to reach for me.

Aerodynamics Malaga instead could be fine if the price is right.
I'll ask them about that, thanks for the tip!

If you also have any other useful tip about places in Valencia, Granada or Cartagena please let me know.

Again, thanks to you, your help is appreciated.

[LH2]

Here I'm used to fool prices, and 80€+fuel+taxes seemed to be good to me, but if you say that I can get better quotes I believe you on word.

Not necessarily cheaper, but as far as I'm aware, the €80/hr dry Cessnas you see advertised in Spain (such as the one you quoted) tend to be seriously clapped out specimens. I for sure would not fly on one of those (let alone pay for it.) My info is second hand so I could be wrong, but better safe than sorry.

There is also the issue re. insurance and liability in case of a prang. Look into that carefully before committing to anything.

Also I've been proposed a PA-28-161 Warrior for 124€/h with fuel, but since my current PPL training involves only Tecnam P92 and C172 I guess some hours of familiarization will be required.

Every serious business or individual offering their plane for hire will require a check-out flight before they will let you loose with their pride and joy. I don't know how much experience you've got, but one hour should be plenty to "convert" from a 172 to a 28, they're hardly space shuttles after all.

Alternatively, I know about good P92's going for €90/hr wet but AFAIK they're all registered as microlights, so those hours may not count for your licence. Still, it might be worth checking, as I seem to remember, the Spaniards used to accept three-axis microlight hours as SEP--maybe the ENAC have a similar rule? Else, I'll check if there are any VLA registered P92s around--they're fun little ****s to fly :)

Jerez de La Frontera is too far and difficult to reach for me.

You can fly to Seville then reach Jerez by train, bus, hire car, or taxi. It's about one hour drive.