You won't believe this

[604driver]

Every word of this is true. I swear.

Some of you may think its a cheap shot but read on. This is an example of who may be at the controls of the innocent little triangle you see on your TCAS.

To set the scene. I work for a small company operating a jet aircraft on a foreign registration. The jet has Efis, FMS, Eicas etc and most of us have UK licences flying on foreign licences based on our brit ones.

The particular person who all this relates to is an ex-mil guy and is one of the reasons CRM was invented. He's a do it yourself man, always in a hurry, has no repect for the people he shares a flight deck with, does not read the books and refuses recurrent training. Here goes.

One Sunday last October descending south of Gatwick in VS mode doing 340Kts. Our A/C has an envelope protection which pulls the nose up in case of an overspeed. Passing 8000' the VMO reduces to 300Kts. Although a captain, for this sector Im sitting in the RHS. I warn him of the speed. He replies he wants to see what will happen. Sure enough the nose pulls up and, to cut a long story short, we climb 1700' before the speed reduces to 300Kts. I hand over the controls back to him.

The very next flight i do with him, i'm on the jump seat for this one, the weather was Broken cloud 400' or so above minimums but was very windy. A Loc only App, he elects to fly the approach based on the FMS with the LOC tuned in and displyed on the Co-Pilots MFD. No brief is given to the P2. The a/c Intercepts the Loc. At the descent point he does not commence his descent. The P2 advises him of this. He then reaches for the Alt selector, spins it down, selects VS and descends at 300'min. Our a/c places a donut on the VSI to constantly give you a required rate of descent to arrive at 50' over the threshold from present position. It was, at this point on around 1100 fpm. From the jump seat i tell him he needs a greater ROD. He increases the VS to around 700fpm. (this poses a very interesting senrio for a JS occupant)

Through the broken Layer and now very high, he sees the runway, disconnects the auto pilot, announces he can make it from here and lands heavily half way down a 7000' wet runway. Nothing is said taxiing in. When the passengers get off, our commander unloads his bags and drives home. I take the P2 to a private location, sit down and discussed what happened.

Sure enough, again im the jumpseat occupant, same airport, same senario, different P2. weather not windy but cloud base at around 1200'. we approach the descent point, he tells the P2 to wind the alt selector to MDA, but before the P2 can reach and turn the alt selector, our commander reaches for the VS mode then the VS wheel and rotates it for a descent. If the alt selector has not been moved, the autopilt reverts to Pitch mode. He then selects VNAV as our GPS computed Glideslope is centered and we begin a descent for the runway. As it is an uncomfortable capture the aircraft dolphins as it corrects to the required ROD. He then tells the P2 to set the alt selector at the G/A altitude. The P2 does this and as the alt selector altitude passes through the actual aircraft altitude, the VNAV drops out and once again we are in Pitch mode. Due to the dolphin like capture, the a/c was in an almost level attitude. I informed him of this and he said it will recapture, that's what they told him in the sim. I said it won't. He said it will. Once again we are getting high and in IMC. I politely suggest he asks for vectors to be repositioned. he says no and rotates the VS wheel a couple of notches. Still in pitch mode. I told him he needed a greater ROD and to put "the dick in the donut" so to speak. He was telling us all that in the sim they had told him this was a gotcha and you should wind the alt selector to the G/A alt. 2.5 miles from touchdown at 1260 feet, he sees the runway, disconnects the A/P and dives for the ground. The GPWS must have had a sore throat when it finished. We landed heavily and had to use max braking to avoid running off the end of the rwy.

After we park up he says that wasn't very good was it and a heated discussion begins. Our leader then goes home after a brief discussion about the merits of VNAV.

I phoned the app controller on my way home and asked for training purposes if a printout of thr approach was available. Sadly it was not that easy.

It is almost 90 days until he flies again. Jumping strait into LHS and asking me to fly a sector with him. Just as we get airbourne, we are in a right turn passing 1000' climbing to 3400' he is hand flying the aircraft. He reaches down and tunes the radio to the next frequency, even though we haven't been asked to change over. I have to keep a knee under the control column as we approach 30degrees of bank and remind him to watch his bank angle.

Two sectors later he lands at a 2000' elevation airport with the cabin alt set at sea level, he had been the NHP on this sector. It is unclear as to whether he read the checklist or not.

They then depart to go to a mediterranean airport. The P2 throws the bags out the back of the A/C whilst the pax deplane. When the bags are unloaded, the P2 comes forward and as he does hears the right engine start and sees the door closing. P2 gets in to the RHS and asks if the P1 has done everything. He says no but we gotta get going. The P2, heads down punches in the flt plan into the FMS, works out the T/O speeds, gets those bugged up, tries to complete the after starts, taxi checks and write the clearance down. they had been parked close to the threshold.

The tower clears them to line up and takeoff, it was dark, the P2 still heads down hears the engines spool up, feels the acceleration and then hears the tower say, you are on the taxiway, take the next left and line up cleared for takeoff. They are going too fast to take the next turn off.

Eventually they get on the runway, he announces, lets get out of here and they get airbourne. On climb out the only discussion that is ever had is, from him to the P2, well i guess you learnt something today. I didnt know they had built a new runway here. They then proceed to destination where when they shutdown, he has shutdown with the thrust reversers deployed!

This is a person who wrote to one of our captains and i quote "it is inexcusable for you to ever question my decisions".

People like this are still opearting in todays environment. I am sure this guy is not the only guy like this. If you fly with a guy like the one described above, do your profession a favour and get rid of them as quickly as possible.


[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 05 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 05 April 2001).]

[Myk Hunt]

I think it is your( or who ever gets into this kind of scenario ) to report it to the chief pilot before he kills somebody. Better to feel uncomfortable if you will fly with him again than see him kill you or anyone you know, and don´t forget all the pax.
Brgds M.H.

[Desk Driver]

This should be a private conversation with management.......not here! There are 2 sides to every story and the guy can't defend himself here.

Innocent until proven guilty!



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-------------------------
You fly em we'll fill em!

[Jonty]

Report him to the Cheif Pilot, and the CAA. Get rid of him before he kills alot of people!

PS can you keep him away from BHX and LGW please!!!

[FLY BY WIRE]

Desk Driver,
A wise old aviator once told me "you start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck". As long as no names are mentioned then the sharing of incidents and senarios is extremely helpful to pilots and anyone connected with aviation to learn from others experiences (good or bad). Thats one of the reasons for CHIRP.
However I do agree with innocent until proved guilty, but if this guy is as consistently dangerous as he is portrayed, then someone has got to have the balls to tell the Chief pilot, and do us all a big favour.
FBW
P.s. How can you refuse recurrent training, surely base checks would have weeded him out?


[This message has been edited by FLY BY WIRE (edited 05 April 2001).]

[smooth approach]

You describe an idiot; tell management!

[EGGW]

Does your company have QAR's fitted?? If they do, they provide a wonderful account of gash operators.
Obviously there are always two sides to any story, but from what i've read this pilot is very non-standard, and looks like an accident waiting to happen. Its up to you and you colleagues to report what is going on. There are subtle ways to prove things, and if this guy isn't able to change his ways the management should and probably would remove this character.

[Bright-Ling]

604.....why don't you report him? You obviously feel quite strongly about the subject.

BTW........we all thought that he was ex-mil, but from the US Navy or something!

[Desk Driver]

F B W

I agree that if true this guy is dangerous and you need to know via your management right away.

The whole aviation industry does not need to know until it's proven. I'm not saying 604 is a liar far from it. However PPRUNE would not allow him to be named I'm sure, so what use is it to any of us anyway.

What if he's just rubbed an FO up the wrong way, what if its all exagerated or even just plain malicous. I don't think he should be tried and convicted here. What would you feel if you read something like that about you that just was'nt true. How could you defend yourself without identifying yourself (by Proxy) to the whole forum. Then you run the risk of beeing tarred forever.

Safe flying to all




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-------------------------
You fly em we'll fill em!

[LargeJet]

This has got to be a wind-up?! If he's that bad 604, why do you ever get in an a/c with him and why haven't you reported him already? Seems like the blame lies with you to some degree having seen his operation many times and done nothing about it.

[Flight Safety]

This guy would be weeded out even in the military, so the fact that he's ex-mil is beside the point.

Since no airline or names are mentioned, he should maybe undergo a drug test. The behavior you describe is too far out there, and might (and I emphasize "might") be explained by this. It's also possible a medical condition is at the root of his behavior. In any event, he's a hazard right now, with an overrun accident being possible based on your observations.


------------------
Safe flying to you...

[Bright-Ling]

I can't vouch for the internal stuff, but I can confirm that:

(a) The approach was steep, and landed half way down a very wet 7000ft runway.

(b) A call was made from someone who was in the jumpseat requesting radar recordings.

604.....perhaps not the best place to air yr dirty laundry ol' chum. Put it throught the proper channels.

Remember, only air here what you know might be found out. You never know who is reading. If I could work it out from one post I'm sure yr peers could.
Be safe.

[604driver]

Chaps,

This guy is the chief pilot and pays my salary! This is true, i am the training Captain. His lack of ability has been reported to the company. In the mean time....

[Bright-Ling]

604.....

....give me yr e-mail address and I'll chat more!

Tricky predicament....chin up ol' boy!

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Sounds like 604driver is just looking for a bit of moral support to encourage him to do the established thing and report the fellow through the normal channels.

Since the people involved, including the company, remain anonymous, we cannot judge that the accused is being tried and morally convicted here on a public forum, can we?

[604driver]

Bright-Ling. Thanks I'll get in touch.

I'll be honest and say that this is not necessarily the place to air dirty laundry. I originally sent a msg to Danny asking if i should just re-register my log on and write this annonymously. But why should I. I am not airing dirty laundry, I'm merely pointing out, with examples, that our profession has not weeded out people like this and i am sure this guy is not the only one of his type in the air.

Our industry spends millions on designing gadgets to prevent us from bumping into each other or into the ground and the equipment is only as good as the guy using it.

I would dearly love to know if he is the only one like this operating in our hemisphere.

I have to put my hand on my heart and say that i passed him on his last base check. I signed up his licence and he is with us. At the time he flew a reasonable ride. Taking that flight on its merits, i could not fail him. I have refused to examine him again.

[Bright-Ling]

604....it's

[email protected]

Keep smilling!

[604driver]

Bright-Ling

You have mail, i hope.

[NorthernSky]

604driver,

Hmmm, a very tricky spot to be in.

Let's assume that there is a problem, though I agree with the 'innocent until proven guilty' remarks above. The apparently substantive remarks from an ATC friend seem worth noting. (A formal report from ATC might trigger an external examination ofthe circumstances.....?).

First, well done for deciding to do something about this, and also for having been sufficiently professional to take a check ride performance on its merits - all part of being a checker/examiner/whatever.

Now, I realise that you may be a small operation. But, you still have owners/shareholders whose assets you go to work in, and you do transport people of some importance to their employers, families, and so on. These people should not be exposed to unacceptable risk.

Approaching your management above the chief pilot maybe difficult, as they are probably the ones who appointed him to that position. Other agencies, such as the NBAA, may be able to help.

You could try contacting your insurance company, who may be concerned that they are exposed to more risk than is acceptable.

However, if this chap is your chief pilot, my guess is that at some time in his career he has been an aviator of at least average ability. Have you taken time to have a friendly chat with him in a non-confrontational manner, perhaps with another trainer present who shares your views? How about talking to somebody you both know, and whom you know he respects, about this - in order that some peer pressure can be brought gently to bear?

There are many companies providing 'off the shelf' CRM courses, and suggesting you all go on one of these together, might well start a learning process.

If he does not respond positively to criticism, then a CVR/DFDR playback of the next incident you see, might well give an oportunity for him to see his behaviour on paper or in playback, and to reflect calmly upon it.

Whilst I find the incidents you have described entirely unacceptable, this chap may have strengths of which you are unaware, which are worth hanging onto. He may have a medical problem, of course, which may be stress-related.

I do agree that you need to do something, but think carefully about what......

You are clearly happy enough in your present job to stay (I guess that 604 pilots are in some demand), and if you succeed in un-seating your chief pilot, it may not get you the best possible reputation in your industry. Remember, it's a small world.

My e-mail address is available above, if you wish to respond more privately.

------------------
'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.

[LewTon]

I am not sure what is going on here, but I smell 'agent provocateur'. I suggest professional aviators are careful about what they say.

[Bright-Ling]

Northern......

...I agree, a formal report from ATC would help - but what can we do? It is not for the Twr controller to initiate a go around in that case - the runway was clear and given to the aircraft.

ATC cannot go around putting 1261's in because an aircraft recovering in bad weather lands long! Given what 604 says, I have no doubt to suggest he is telling the truth, as elements are definitely true.

I'm sure 604 knows what he is doing, but as said it is a small industry. A friendly chap, and a "blame" log of everything is needed if he is that dangerous. As others have said, he must have some qualities, it is getting it out of him that is the test here!!

I also think that he may have other problems, but reading the initial post it seems that there are often 90 days between flights, which can't help.

[Latte tester]

604, You have to wonder about just when something is going to go drastically wrong (GIII ASE), if this idiot remains behind the controls. I've heard of too many pilots with a fat log book, but no ability to fly an electronic aircraft. I think you have to do something before it's too late, the new electronic jets will bite you in a heartbeat if given the chance.
Latte time!

[brokepilot]

Why don't you quit crying and get a new job?

[machone]

From what I have heard, you are not alone with this problem north of 00N.

[604driver]

For the record, this is the very best job in aviation as far as im concerned. I'm not complaining about anything here. What i feel i have done is set out a list of incidents that occured on almost successive sectors. Honestly, the times there isn't a cock up of some kind are as frequently talked about as the times when he does.

In this industry, we work sitting on our backsides and demand an increasing amount of money for flying our shiny jets through the skies as safetly as possible. All companies have some kind of safety culture. I have yet to figure out what ours is.

We are all allowed to make mistakes, sometimes our judgement could have been better. I have definately been in a senario when afterwards i wish i had played it differently. This thread on this BB may turn out to be one of those times. But my motive is not to malign an individual and ask those in pprune land to back me. My motive is to highlight the point that people like bthis do exist. Im interested to find out to what extent.

Definately i am not an agent provocateur and to brokepilot, going and getting another job is not the answer. We can't just bury our heads in the sand and hope a situation like this will resolve itself without hurting anybody.

Outside of the cockpit, im actually quite fond of the chap but there has to be a point at which professional side of your persona takes over from the personal side.

All sorts of approaches have been made to the character in question. The problem is you might reach common ground and agreement bbut then he goes and does it his way anyway. He seems to be in a hurry to get to the next life, rather than slowing down the arrival of thr final point of this life.

He's always been like this but now the incidents are getting more serious.

Love and peace and fairways and greens.

[ogseminole]

604

In the unfortunate eventuality that you have to fly with this idiot again, use good CRM and continue to make deviation callouts. If he pushes the field and continues with an unstabilized approach, pull the gear handle up at 500 AGL and tell him you have the aircraft.
There is no need to be a polite corpse.

[sailor]

Surely you have to be wearing your glasses as smoke-goggles, love ash all over the flight-deck, drink large G&Ts three at a time and have total aversion to razors to be able to achieve feats like these! Why not hate BA, have no pension, suffer from sim-sickness and wifemares for good measure? Throw in a some IBS, a lot of 124+1, an occasional tiger-crunch, and hey presto!
I certainly am very happy not to be in a situation like that, and think that if you are dissatisfied with the circumstances you describe you should either have the guts to leave, try to put matters right by speaking your mind as others have in the past in similar circumstances, report dangerous actions to the proper authority in a timely manner rather than turning a blind eye and staying zip-lipped, or remain loyal to your employer in silence and try to live with your conscience in the event of an accident. It is surprising that it has apparently taken so long for your rose-tinted spectacles to slip off your J-tinted nose. Try showing some backbone! Even if it is his company that employs and pays you!

[Huck]

Sir-

I was in a very similar situation around 10 years ago. Right seat in a BE-200, corporate Part 91 in the states.

My captain was cheerful and personable, and the bosses loved him. He was a Vietnam vet who had 10,000 hours of SAC bomber time. He also could not fly. He went low on approaches, landed routinely with 20 minutes of fuel in IFR, and made a habit of 30 deg. bank at 20 feet when given a departure turn.

Long story short - I quit, and then he crashed. He took out two passengers and burned down a house with 5 sleeping children in it (the children lived, but no one in the aircraft did.) The NTSB found pilot error.

I went to that piece of scorched front yard and took a picture, which I keep in my flight bag with pictures of my wife and son. DO NOT let this happen to you - stop this man before he kills someone! I wish I had.

The cockpit is a very secret place, and we are the only witnesses to a pilot's true judgment and skills under fire. Don't just slink away, like I did. I've regretted it ever day since.

[Latte tester]

Brokepilot, I would imagine that your response to this very difficult and serious situation is a reflection of your "name" and that you are lounging around somewher in the sun sucking back "cold ones" because you were fired for similar behaviour. You seem to have taken offence by these writings - truth hurts!

[Bright-Ling]

Latte.....here here!

I really feel for anyone in this situation. I just hope that all have the strength and wisdom a la 604driver here, and do something about apparantly unruly operators.

Keep safe people.

Remember, we all have a duty of care to help keep the industry as safe as possible.

[604driver]

Sailor, lets say, hyperthetically of course, that you worked for this fellow, would you be on record as having reported it to anybody. Did you, would you display the backbone you mention. i doubteth thou practiceth what thou preacheth.

Anyhow all the best. my argument is not with you.

[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 07 April 2001).]

[normal_nigel]

....I rest my case.still I think they all deserve 5 stripes.

NN

[ghost-rider]

Good luck 604.

I hope that it all gets sorted out to your satisfaction.

Idiots like your CP shouldn't be in the air by all accounts.

[604driver]

NN,being ex fish head he gets 5 stripes on every layer of clothing plus two stars a chest full of useless acolades and an ego bigger than the carrier he got shot off the front end of.

[normal_nigel]

...oh and enhanced seniority, increased CRA, more fairness in lines of work and a training co-pilot/management job after 5 mins.Still, they are the best of the best of the best.

NN

[Dockjock]

A very sobering anecdote, Huck. I support your point of view fully.

A tool for preventing dangerous/minimum busting landings that might work is that upon reaching minimums with no chance of making a safe landing, is to call "XXX MISSED APPROACH" over the freq. He will have no choice but to go around, or be voilated.

Good luck.

[MUDGUTS]

Bubble him or get someone to do it for you.

You know the feeling you get when you have just dropped a glass in the kitchen and realise just as it is heading towards the floor in slow motion that you should have been more careful but also realise there is nothing you can do about it now......

......Well imagine how stupid you will feel when you are about to plough in with this guy at the controls......

Put his name and details on the net in as many places as you can, prepare to be banned from any forum you have done this on, wait for the sh** to hit the fan and sit back and feel secure with the knowledge that you have saved at least one life, if not many.

If all you have said is true then you have little to fear.

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EVERY CAT HAS ITS SAY



[This message has been edited by MUDGUTS (edited 08 April 2001).]

[chrisN]

<May a humble glider pilot ask a question? One of our principles is always to report a heavy landing, even if there seems to be no damage, in case a proper inspection reveals something that could hurt the next pilot. Does that philosophy apply in the commercial world too, or is it unnecessary for some reason?

Chris N.

[JJflyer]

Sounds like cheerful Uncle Bob a 727 Captain with 25000 hours total and 22000 of them in cropdusters and a severe alcohol problem and you have it right there.
He should not be a Captain of a paddle boat let alone a 727.

Going to Tenerife South he wanted highspeed and that we got. Now down around 1500ft 12 miles outh he is cooking at 320kts. Wow I tell him to slow down, he tells me " She cleared us for highspeed approach " I take the airplane.

What A nutcase... 2 weeks later he was fired as I made a report on him,one of the hardest decicions I have had to make. This was just the tip of the iceberg though.

So I know how you feel about the situation

JJ

[604driver]

ChrisN,

One should report a heavy landing. However whose definition of heavy landing do you want an intrepid aviator to adhere to. I'm not the best person to articulate this because i might not be able to explain exactly what i mean without offending people but the answer to your question depends very much on the persona of the individual. We dont have a heavy landing indicator in our cockpits and your defence will always be that you didn't think it was that heavy.

Sometimes you could trip the ELT switch which i believe operates on a 6G trip switch, thus letting the armed forces know you banged it in. Would pride stand in the way of professionalism. Of course it can depending on the persona of the individual.

The longer you try to cover up your mistakes, the harder it becomes to be successful at the cover-up but it seems human nature percieves it as an easier option than admitting to the cock-up in the first place.

Our profession is so heavily regulated that unless you have a really good guy as a fleet manager, chief pilot or head of training standards etc, your cock-up becomes a vehicle for those in pilot-management positions to promote thier own agenda using you as a scape goat to do it. What you thought was minor and worth reporting gets blown out of all proportion, you get demoted and some pilot manager types buck for promotion at your expense.

How many pilots in management positions do you know who would go in to bat for you over an incident that you percieve to be fairly minor in nature?

[This message has been edited by 604driver (edited 07 April 2001).]

[PPRuNe Towers]

604,

It's not been mentioned so far so can I suggest a CHIRPS report if you're working on a UK licence??

------------------
Regards from the Towers
[email protected]

[upwiththebirds]

604, Blow the wistle for goodness sake. Been in a similar situation in the corporate world and I left for the Airlines rather than face up to the problem. My guy could fly the plane perfectly. Sad thing was he was in serious need of psychiatric help (not a joke) and a bully to go with it. I wish I'd had the guts to tell the Authorities.

[This message has been edited by upwiththebirds (edited 07 April 2001).]

[Crockett]

If all true and whilst I do not understand all the technical wording...Report it...do something about it... you owe it to the flying public and the rest of the airline crew...

As someone who lost a wife and child on SilkAir 185, I can assure you, I wish the pilot of that Particular aircraft had been grounded given his prior record of erratic action.. Even if as allegedly proven that he did not commit suicide, he should still have not been flying the public around, given his prior record..

Do not let it happen again..please..

[chrisN]

604, fair comments - I was truly asking, not telling! In our amateur gliding world, about 3.5g is the worry point (many training gliders have accelerometers)and there has to be, and is, a good deal of trust. Sometimes it breaks down - people don't always own up.

We certainly do not usually have the career or management pressures you describe.

I don't envy you your position in this. Others have said as much or more than I can about what you "should" do.

Chris N.

[exeng]

Crokett my friend,

I appreciate your restraint. How difficult it must be for you.

Rest assured that the vast majority of proffesional flight crew operate the A/C well within very safe limitations.

I am truly sorry for for your personal loss.


Regards
Exeng

[captainschlonger]

Our man is in a difficult position. Sure he is in a check capacity, and has the right to drop this guy in the bucket, but like us all, he's reluctant to do so. He is, after all, a fellow aviator.

He's probably thinking that it would be prefereable to change the behaviour rather than get him fired, but it doesn't look like an easy job to me.

However, I believe he should drop him in, and has an obligation to do so. He'll feel bad about it, but it's absolutely necessary. There's no place in modern aviation for guys like this.

I feel as somebody further up the page does, that he's just looking for some anonymous support that he's doing the right thing. He is!

As for discussing the matter in this forum, I think it's perfectly valid provided no names are mentioned or any info that will actually identify the person.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

On a similarly scary note, about a month ago, the chief pilot of a UK regional airline crashed his car on the way to work. He only flies once a week normally, he brushed himself off and reported, with "a gash on his head."
Several people asked if he was ok- the FO asked more than once. He insisted he was fit to fly.
According to eye witnesses, he was confused and forgetful. This may be a factor in his failure to start the engines, or the a/c may genuinely have been tech. Either way, after 3 start attempts, he handed the aeroplane over to the engineers, and finally agreed to see a doctor.
Surprisingly enough, he was concussed!
According to the mate who told me this (an FO with said company) this CP is absolutely a rulebook guy. At interview, he asks prospective FOs what they would do if a Captain turned up for work smelling of alcohol. Perhaps he should change it to "What would you do if the Chief Pilot turned up with a visible head wound and insisted on flying?"
Or perhaps the MEL should be amended to read "Gaping Head Wounds: allowable number, NIL." :)

[F/O Junior]

604, the part with reaching down and tuning the radios : Almost identical situation with a SAAB 340, both FP and NFP were distracted with the FMGC, but there was no knee to stop the AC from inverting and crashing shortly after take off.
I hope you get the required advice and help to get rid of him. Not good to know that he shares airspace with all of us.

[604driver]

Thanks to all for your opinions. I value them, regardless of whether they are supportive or unsupportive. I also realise that i may be looking for a new job within the month as the individual concerned manages by emotion and erupts at anything and everything.

The point here is that these incidents are pretty bad just on their own. However, they were all committed by the same individual and to further cap it off, they occurred on consecutive sectors just about.

It gets worse. Other Captains have had the pnone slammed down on them 15mins before departure time after a heated discussion. It cannot be right that they then try to put it behind them and get airbourne whilst still angry just to satisfy the company. He is a hazard even when he's not on the aircraft.

I have thought long and hard about a chirp report. The reason i didn't is because he would read it, know it was about him and try and make our lives even more difficult.

If he reads this forum, at least he can see what other aviators feel about the incidents as portrayed by myself. I certainly have not used any artistic licence and the words i have used to describe the situations are the same words i would use to report this to the authorities.

I think deep down inside i don't feel i have the confidence in the authorities to sort this out. It degenerates into his word against mine, possibly gets dragged thru the courts, all the individuals concerned get named in a public arena and the operating company gets dragged through the dirt and portentially we all lose our jobs and our reputations suffer.

[glider insider]

the companies reputation will suffer being dragged thru the courts...but it will suffer even more from an accident that could have been prevented. its a tough decision you have to make but go with your gut instinct..although you might feel bad about any repecussions this has on the CP's career, i think Hucks posting gives you a clear indication about what the other emotion could be.

although not working in a commercial flightdeck this guys lack of skill / judgement seems obvious, in the modern work environment an open forum should be encouraged and when a colleague alerts you to a problem that is possibly flight safety related it should not be brushed aside. this guy is kidding himself and perhaps would do him good for some of his actions to be questioned in a more formal manner, be it by the company management or government agencies....

anyone reading this..please forgive me if what i have said is complete **** , but this is my opinion as someone who flies for pleasure, not money.

[HugMonster]

604, as the Training Captain, can you not ground this guy?

Either way, I am sure the FOs you mention would speak up if assured that their word would be supported.

If all is as you say, this man is worse than dangerous - sooner or later he WILL kill people. If you simply move jobs, you're putting someone else in a difficult position in your old job, who may not have the courage to do what's required. If all you say is true, this man has to be grounded - permanently.

[heaveymetal76er]

604: Suggestion: copy the text portion of the thread to paper. Remove all pprune reference and names. Drop it in company mail, to him, adding a note (diplomatically, but firm) and anonymously that you will give a copy to the company and the government agencies if his actions don’t change in thirty days.

I am not a believer in gossip, amongst crewmember. Majority of the time when I have heard stories, they prove to be ‘el toro popo’ (a little Spanish lingo as Rush would say). But maybe a little advise to the F/O’s that may have to fly with him, again discreetly and anonymously. To watch their ass! So he can’t do a taxi way take off again.

If things don’t change, drop the info on the government, and company personal, and hope someone does the right thing. Maybe be prepared to turn him in with your named attached.

I agree with several posts, regarding this is a small world. But just as you may be ostracized, by a few, there will be those would love to have you on their staff. I am sure several Chief Pilots are reading this-I suggest they e-mail you directly with their imput.

The life you save may be mine!


[This message has been edited by heaveymetal76er (edited 09 April 2001).]

[604driver]

i may do that.

[SkyClear]

It is a difficult position here, but we don't know the relationship, personally or professionally, between your man and the management. Is it the case that he got the position within your airline because he has a personal connection with the management?

There must be others in the airline that have similar experiences that you can share. It appears that you cannot take this any further on your own, otherwise you would have done something long ago. Maybe a joint approach would work.

This guy is obviously experienced. Do you know of a history of problems in other airlines? Maybe it is worth tracking down people who have had some contact with him before.

Only a few questions and suggestions, and good luck.

[Stall-Warner]

604,

I'm interested in your comment about not trusting the authorities to sort out the problem, in the event of a CHIRP report being filed. Whilst the legal process may take time, hard evidence should result in a conviction and appropriate action being taken.

PPRUNE is a good vehicle to seek thoughts and opinions from others, but it is NOT the vehicle for a judge & jury decision.

I'd strongly recommend you take appropriate and timely action. Otherwise I fear the next report we read about you, will be written by those knowledgeable and intelligent chaps who operate from a rather well-stocked hangar in Farnborough.

Don't allow any work to go their way, because of your lack of action. Like Huck, you may live to regret it.

Regards and Good Luck - none of us envy you, but we're all behind you.

[heaveymetal76er]

What a ‘chirp’? Same as a NASA form in the States? NASA form gives you immunity, for reporting a problem. It does have limits….Tried to e-mail you. Have another suggestion.

[DEFPOTEC]

604,

If you report this person and it gets twisted you could be a pariah for the rest of your career. Is that what’s keeping you from speaking up?


[This message has been edited by DEFPOTEC (edited 09 April 2001).]

[Bright-Ling]

Hvymetal76er,

yep..a CHIRP is a Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme (Yes, I know it doesn't 'fit'!)

It is for ATC'ers/Engineers/crew to report anonymously. It is very good, and all ATC'ers get one sent to them.

Probably the same as your scheme.

I don't think that 604 is looking for a judge and jury, just a bit of guidance, which we all need from time to time.

[604driver]

I have to say that i have been reading the postings on this site for a long time and previously i have been fairly indifferent to alot of what i have read. I am however pleasantly surprised at the support i have been shown here and the e-mails i have received have been particularly supportive.

Thanks to you all. I will let you know how this one progresses, but i know there are going to be fireworks.

I'm not looking for judge and jury here as all this has been kept relatively annonymous. What is interesting is that some of those posting believe that much of this is / could be porky pies. It isn't but i'm not asking you to believe me but to just to consider the possibility that if what i have said is true what would you do?

[email protected]

[valerian]

As a PPL I am in no position to give advice to someone in your position. I do not know whether you should formally lodge a report, deal with it informally, or as suggested above present this discussion as an anonymous letter.

But in the interests of your passengers & fellow pilots, I believe you - or someone else - MUST do something if the Chief pilot's flying is as you describe. It is surely inappropriate merely to hope this situation will resolve itself favourably.

[CA1261]

Regarding reporting action (and life in general!):
"It is better to regret something you HAVE done than to regret something you COULD'VE (or SHOULD'VE) done but didn't".

As has already been mentioned, you might save a life & it might be mine (especially if he's low & well right of the centreline!)

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My tower equipment wasn't affected by the Y2K bug, it's too old...
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[Flying_Steph]

The last time I had a little chat with the chief pilot regarding a guy (who wanted to fly in known rain+icing conditions with an unreliable anti-ice system), he kindly listened to what I said but didn't really give a damn about the incident.

"Company culture" can't be changed ?
Change company !

They're not the ones who love you and care about you, and they certainly won't cry if you end up as cold meat.

[upgrade]

This is not the place for such serious allegations.If what you say is true(and we have only your word for that),then by all means do something about it,but discreetly.This guy cant defend himself and he's being crucified.You wouldnt like your flying skills being called into question on a public forum would you?

[Bright-Ling]

Upgrade....

First of all READ the WHOLE thread. It is not a case of 604 crucifying this guy.

Secondly, why are you writing so offensively? I can tell you that from an ATC point of view I witnessed some of what was said and put 2 and 2 together and spoke to 604 about it.

Nobody doubts that this guy has obviously ability and probably 000's of hours, but put yourself in 604's position: He is only asking some advice and alerting all to the fact that he was not happy.

Typically in a small bizjet world he doesn't have the big infrastructure of a big airline, so who else could he talk to for advice.

Cut him some slack. Interesting that you didn't offer any advice here. If nothing, take it as a hypothetical problem and think how you would deal with it.

I for one, don't want the guy in question sacked, but how many times do fatalities lead to learning points in aviation and CRM? Yes, he can't 'defend' himself, but then he isn't being named.

[NotMyJob]

My question is - if this is a a business jet operation - assumedly the gentleman in question is most directly answerable to whoever is riding in the back. Might not that individual (or group thereof) have some interest in the safety conditions under which they are being pushed around the sky? Or is this one of those fractional ownership or rock star/celebrity contract operations? Bottom line is, who owns the aircraft? Unless it's himself, they would be the obvious ones to initially approach. Any attempts beyond that can then be justified if there's no resultant action taken.

[SLF 999]

I dont work in aviation but in corporate business, so here is my opinion for what it is worth.
I have read the whole thread and totally understand your reluctance / problem with going to management, I have been through a similar problem with a member of staff (although the consequences of him failing were not as dire as yours), but I felt isolated and vulnerable. I did report the person but didnt seem to get anywhere, and eventually left the company, but later found out that the wheels had been turning (although not as fast as I thought they should) and the person was demoted and put in a back water out of harms way.
Ok it was too late for me but it at least showed that things do happen.
Maybe your company are not the correct people to deal with the problem , but I do think that you should give them the chance of at least attempting to correct his behaviour, but also go to the authorities with the CHIRP (is that right?).

As SLF, I am blissfully unaware of a pilots abilities, and always assume total faith in their abilities to get me from A - B safely, I have doubts about this guy, so for the sake of all self loading freight and for people like Huck, please find the courage to report him.
I would support you all the way.
Regards

[GJB]

It's hard for anyone, not directly involved, to fully appreciate the difficulty of this situation.

I do sense a certain desperation here - why else look for opinions from a public forum? If the situation is as bad as you describe then you must take some positive action.

This sounds like another 'human factors' accident waiting to happen.

[Don Quixote]

Had a similar problem when I was flying corporate. I did as some replies above suggested and built up the courage to speak to the rich guy who owned the aircraft and paid my salary.

His answer, "If I detect that you and the Chief Pilot have a personality problem, someone will have to be let go and that will be you".

I could not believe what I was hearing. I was there to tell him of some serious safety problems and he told me that I would be the one to be sacked because I was the most junior.

You are in a very difficult position 604, I have been there. Good luck.

[Flanker]

It's not that big a deal.Make a decision.

Discuss the matter with all concerned, express your serious concerns.If you do not get support from the boss do you really want to work there?
Take your professional attitude somewhere it is appreciated.

I have no time for cowboys, even if they're nice guys,sorry.

[604driver]

Well thanks everyone. I guess it comes down to this, "if you're going to sit on the toilet, either have a **** or get off"

:-)

[BuzzLightyear]

Brightling

Just came to this thread and have read it all the way through. Interesting to note that
you said that "it is not for the tower to initiate a go around in that case", what about that part in the Part 1 which says that if you consider an aircraft to be dangerously positioned on final you should initiate a go around instruction? You obviously, from the tone of your posts, side with 604driver in considering the approach to be unsafe, so in actual fact could have sent the aircraft around. If he had landed long and gone off the end, at the subsequent court of enquiry you could have found yourself answering some very interesting questions about why you didn't send it around.

You were obviously concerned enough when 604driver called and asked for the radar recordings, but again say you can't go round filling in 1261's when an aircraft lands long. From the description of the events it appears to be more than "just" a long landing we are discussing here, in that case it would have been perfectly acceptable for you to fill in the form under the MOR scheme. Remember it covers any occurence which has, or if not corrected would have, endangered an aircraft, its occupants or any other person. Which if the accounts here are to be believed, it did.

I am NOT having a pop at you, be careful, you would not be the first or last controller to get hauled over the coals due to a pilot making a mess of it and you being in a position to do something about it but acting too late or not at all.

604driver use CHIRP they will help.



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To infinity and beyond

[gaunty]

604driver

Thats it, I have lost too many mates as victims of the "legend" syndrome.

Best case, you talk to all concerned including GIB and your concerns are resolved, worst case then you didn't wanna be there anyway.

Your call.

[604driver]

Buzzlightyear,

Thanks for taking the time to read the whole thread before responding. In an e-mail to me after I started this thread, Bright-Ling stated that he had just come off shift or was in the handover phase when we appeared.

I just want to make absolutely clear here that I have highlighted 2 incidents within a couple of weeks of each other that were almost identicle in nature. However the second incident from a pilots point of view was far more severe.

ATC went out of their way to issue Go-Around instructions to our aircraft when they were not asked for. I believe the phrase began with a "XXXXXX in the event of a go-around, turn on to xxx heading and climb to xxxx thousands of feet.

Im not sure that that exonerates the controller or not. What is also a very interesting point is what should i have done even though i was sitting on the jump seat!

I would feel slightly aggrieved if ATC went round filing reports left right and centre because they believe something is amiss.

On a slightly different note, has anyone ever filed a chirp that would be willing to tell me about it here or at [email protected]

Regards

604Driver

[Flight Safety]

604driver, I think the CHIRPS reporting is the way to go. It has a degree of confidentiality (and I assume some degree of protection) in the process. It's something your management CANNOT ignore, as an investigation will almost certainly be required (right?). Your also the CIP, which gives you a high degree of credibility. You are also aware of others who can backup portions of your story.

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Safe flying to you...

[BuzzLightyear]

Brightling

Apologies, thought you were the ATCO concerned, hope you didn't take offence!

604driver

The instruction in the event of a missed approach covers you if you decide to terminate the approach and go around, don't think that in this current climate of corporate liability that it would exonerate the ATCO of any blame if it was obvious that the aircraft was positioned dangerously.

Agree with you about us going around filing reports willy nilly, but I suggested it because obviously both you and Brightling were concerned with the situation.

CHIRP have a website at www.chirp.co.uk (http://www.chirp.co.uk) and you can print copies of the forms from there.
Your report is kept confidential and they will intervene on your behalf without mentioning your name. Good luck!!

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To infinity and beyond

[604driver]

Buzz,

Point taken about the filing of a report. The first lot of incidents happened during Nov and Dec last year. I was alarmed then but gave the benefit of doubt. When he then tries to take-off on a disused runway at Beirut the very next time he goes to fly because he can't be bothered to look at the taxi chart, I know i have to do something.

Our Captain courageous is now not speaking to the colleague he was flying at the time because he reported the incident to me!

Try to go sick next Friday if you are anywhere between London and Munich. Our man will be there somewhere.

[Bright-Ling]

Buzz - no offence taken.

Yep - the way I worded the reply was kinda wrong (only gotta 'C' in English!).

Obviously MATS pt 1 prevails.....!

[604driver]

Hell, if i knew i was dealing with educated people here, i would have written to Cosmopolitan instead!!!

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Big Johnson Casinos "Liquor up front Poker in the rear"

[ayios]

I WOULD QUESTION THE MORALS OF SOMEONE WHO NOT ONLY HIDES BEHIND ANONYMITY AND THEN STARTS A MAJOR & VITRIOLIC BITCH (DATED 5th APRIL) WITH “EVERY WORD OF “THIS IS TRUE, I SWEAR” (IE THE “DEL BOY” APPROACH) HE DOES NOT STATE IF HE HAS APPROACHED THE PERSON CONCERNED OR TOLD HIM HE HAS PUT OUT THIS ARTICLE ON A WORLD WIDE CIRCULATION YET HIS RECENT CHILDISH TIRADE AGAINST THE LEGAL PROFESSION WOULD INDICATE THAT HE IS PREPARED TO BE BOTH JUDGE AND JURY, HIS OWN CRM SEEMS TO LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED AND HIS MOTIVES QUESTIONABLE. I WOULD TAKE THIS AS A CLASSIC STAB IN THE BACK BY AN UNSCRUPULOUS PERSON. WHO IS THIS MAN WITH A CHIP ON HIS SHOULDER?

[RAFAT]

OOOOOOHHH, GET HER!!!

ayios, shut up!!!

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good Morning 604, sorry to read your thread , seems like the predic your in is down to your own strength of character, I am not a pro pilot, but have been in a similar position( junior/senior) with a very large Corporation, what are you going to feel, when this guy bends something and breaks a few bodies, sorry to sound harsh, but GET OF THE FENCE, and DO SOMETHING NOW!!!!! TODAY, if not SOONER!!!!! Stop looking for crutches.

[Desk Driver]

604.

I've already made my feelings clear about this Thread earlier.

Yes the guys dangerous!

But, if you still have'nt reported him then are you not as Dangerous for not doing so?

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You fly em we'll fill em!

[Cruise Alt]

604.

I am starting out in this game and really hope I never end up in your position. It sounds like you already know what you have to do. I would like to wish you the very best of luck however you play it.

Incidentally are you a member of BALPA or tha IPA? They should be able to give you some advice and also help with the legal implications.

[MachOverspeed]

After having read the original post (but none of the following ones) all I have to say is this.

When a dumbass is trying to kill you, or your concerns are not being considered, TAKE COMMAND OF THE AIRCRAFT! Living is your ONLY concern, and what the dumbass says/thinks/feels/whatever is of NO CONCERN.

Having narrowly survived a pile-up in a Falcon 20, caused by "captainittis", all I can say is "never again".

In my case, as a soon-to-upgrade FO, I was dispatched with a "known weak" Captain on an FAR 135 air cargo run. I deluded myself into thinking that the upcoming upgrade was the most important thing in the world, and consequently allowed this dumbass I was flying with to intimidate me, and we ended up off the end of the runway in Sparta, TN.

After a series of poor judgements regarding the let-down and approach, and then the brake failure, I called for "brakes 2", as per SOP, but this dumbass disregarded me and we very nearly got killed.

I am NOT Jimmy Doolittle, by any means, but BY GOD I will NEVER let another dumbass even come close to killing me.

My personal procedure is this... point out the discrepancy and wait for a response, then put my hands on the controls and demand a response, then if no response or change is forthcoming, TAKE COMMAND RIGHT NOW and to hell with what the other guy thinks! (that would be called the two strikes and you're out rule). If he fights for the controls, smack him in the adam's apple with all I've got and land ASAP.

As long as I'm alive I can get another job, if it comes to that.

[crl]

604..
All the best... Totally agreed with Deskdriver. Something ought to be done soon.
Machoverspeed...
What a coincidence, I backed myself up with EXACTLY the same mindset and will not hesitate to perform those "drills".
Cheers

[maxrevs]

As an LAE, and knowing our industries way of biting its well meaning, "trying to play it by the book" members, for standing up and being counted, I can only say "do the right thing", and let the chips fall where they may. You will have to live with the outcome, which ever way it goes. My father was killed in a 1969 aircrash. As a Flight Engineer, he had his trust in the man in charge of his aircraft, who according to later revelations, had similar tendencies to your pilot. The aftermath nearly killed my mother, and we've thought about the accident every November 20th since then. It's not a pleasant topic, so please do the right thing. I'm sure that most LAEs would agree. All the best - Max.

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When I push the panic button, the breaker pops!

[hairy_kiwi]

I've had the good fortune to have done some RHS flying in a small turbo prop with an ex RAF fast jet driver.

Considering my experience, (recently qualified CPL/IR) I was/(am?) still rather influenceable. When one day my captain asked me why I didn't stop him rushing through the pre-take off checks, my respect for him and for that matter myself, only improved.
I'll second MachOverspeed's post on 01/05/01.

Sod the job and think of your family if not yourself. Besides, there are plenty of jobs out there at the moment.

All the best, however you tackle the problem.

[604driver]

Ayios,

Several people have tried to talk to this character. Many many different approaches have been made but all in vain. If you have read the whole of the thread, you would know that this character has been approached. His method is "he who shouts the loudest must be right" and contrary to all CRM training he bases his operation on not what is right but who is right as long as that means him.

The fact that this person will not allow himself to be questiioned yet critisizes everyone else at every opportunity is one of the many facets that meke hin dangerous.

Another one is don't accept everything, change it. It would appear that that does not apply to the person in question.

By the way, i resognise the style and don't want to get into a slanging match. If this person had made himself approachable this thread would not have appeared!

[Bright-Ling]

604, how is everything going now?

Any improvement?

Cheers,

BL

[604driver]

BL just gonna send u an e-mail

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Big Johnson Casinos "Liquor up front Poker in the rear"

[Doctor Cruces]

Is it not the duty of everyone in aviation to do his/her utmost to foster flight safety?

604, I truly understand your dilemma, but surely as a Training and Check Captain you have a duty to report this guy to higher authority, notwithstanding the flight safety issue. Just because someone performs well on a check ride does not mean he is fit to fly, let alone command. Anyone can be on their best behavior for a formal examination situation and the "revert to type" afterwards.

You MUST get rid of this guy before he kills someone, MAYBE YOU, so for goodness sake, pull his ticket now. I'm sure there must be a regulation somewhere in the ANO of whatever country you are flying in to cover this.

I wish you luck in dumping this dangerous lunatic.

Doc C.