QF piot retrenchments

[dragon man]

At todays AIPA meeting the company has said that 65 SOs will be retrenched unless AIPA (the pilots) can come up with concessions. One idea been that the next pay increase will be halved from 4% to 2%.

[The masked goatrider]

At todays AIPA meeting the company has said that 65 SOs will be retrenched unless AIPA (the pilots) can come up with concessions. One idea been that the next pay increase will be halved from 4% to 2%.

Hey that's a great idea did Barry come up with it? The new comm are tops.

Here's an idea - why not enter discussions with Qantas and see if they can up the number of redundancies to 130 so the rise can be reduced to zero.

[KRUSTY 34]

Do QF pilots across the board have a "return" clause in the EBA. I ask because at my company we are approx 30 pilots overstacked. The only thing stopping redundancies is that any retrenched pilot must be offered their old job back for a period of 5 years before any other newbie is hired. The only reason we haven't seen retrenchments over here is because it would decimate the cadetship. Something that the giant ego's at the top have invested millions in!

What affect would retrenchments at QF have on the QF cadetship? Or don't they care?

Ooops, probably answered my own question on that one!

[astroboy55]

I really hope that if these redundancies are unavoidable AIPA can drag it out long enough so that all the SO's have finished probation....otherwise they dont get the 6 months notice...

Fingers crossed....

[Lusty Blows]

Krusty, yes that was a clause in the last EBA.

[BeerMan]

Which AIPA meeting was that? Is that one of the roadshows AIPA were speaking of? Or was it an an internal AIPA / Company meeting?

[Poto]

Why don't Qantas offer transfers to the expanding Jet-star. Aust/NZ/Singas/Nam. even on contracts similar to the visa's offered to foreigners.
Then again if 737's didn't go across the Pond, 767 frieght contracts were kept and 330's were not sent elsewhere there might be jobs for everyone currently employed and no talk redundencies, pay cuts (which are actually back pays to level with the last five years inflation) or significantly reduced hours flying, assignment of all Annual leave and Long service leave.

Rocket science:ugh:

[hotnhigh]

Another concession. A bit like "a seat at the negotiating table." What a way to manage the surplus.:ugh::ugh:
How about give more aircraft to Jetstar and the blokes being made redundant might have a chance at an opportunity there if they choose to pay for their training.:ugh:
The thin edge of the jetstar wedge is slowly being driven deeper and deeper.
On a slightly brighter note, I see it was reported elsewhere, that Jetstar has seen real improvements in the Japan loads and yields. We all look forward to their continued growth and ultimate movement of the sectors back to qantas mainline services. Who would have thought Jetstar growing such routes so that the qantas product can expand.:ouch::{ "I cannot believe it. It's all over."

[freddyKrueger]

Bosses will have to walk a fine line

The ban on adverse actions is a significant part of the Fair Work Act, write Alex Manos and Nick Ruskin

Many aspects of the new industrial relations law have been hotly debated over the last 18 months but some “sleeping giants” have quietly escaped comment. The prohibition on adverse actions and the enforcement of the of the discrimination laws took effect on July 1 and are sure to influence the way decision making is conducted within businesses and organisations.

For employers, an adverse action occurs if an employee is dismissed, discriminated against or suffers from an alteration of position. The action must have occurred because of an employee's right under an industrial instrument, workplace law or because of an inquiry or complaint made about their employment. For a claim to be made out, there must be a link between the adverse action and the workplace right.

Consider this example. An employee is appointed as harassment officer under an enterprise agreement. The employee is later terminated and told her role has been made redundant. The employee believes one of the reasons for her termination is the appointment as harassment officer. The employee would be able to bring a claim in the Federal Court under the new adverse action laws and seek compensation and potentially, reinstatement.

The adverse action laws are broad in many ways. They enable employees to bring claims even where the alleged action has not yet occurred and is merely organised or being threatened. If the matter proceeds to a court hearing, the onus of proof is shifted to the employer to prove the reason for the claimed action was a lawful one.

Interim injunctions may be issued preventing the employer proceeding with its actions pending a full hearing of the claim.

Consider another example. An employee makes an inquiry to his or her employer about overtime rates. Several months later, the employer begins organising a transfer of the employee to an alterate location permitted under the employee's contract. The employee believes a reason for the transfer is because of the overtime enquiry If the employee is able to satisfy a court, among other things, that he or she has a serious case to be tried and the balance of conveniences favours the the orders sought then the court may issue and interim injunction preventing the transfer until the matter can be determined at a final hearing. The adverse action in this case would be a threat or organisation of the transfer to the alternative location and the workplace rights would be the inquiry about the terms of employment as they affect overtime.

This protection represents a drastic change to the scope of workplace protection and the type and timing of applications brought. Employers will need to ensure they can justify any decision even before it has been implemented, should this be required. Breaches of these provisions may result in reinstatement, uncapped compensation and penalties of up to $33,000 a breach. Any person, regardless of remuneration level, is eligible to use the protections.

Many businesses and organisations will be unaware that actions of discrimination under the Fair Work Act 2009 may now attract a civil penalty. While the prohibitions in the act closely reflect the equal opportunity laws in each state, preventing discrimination for prohibited reasons, they will allow the Fair Work Ombudsman to initiate prosecutions against those who engage in discrimination.

This will allow the Fair Work Ombudsman to initiate civil prosecution against an employer. A Finding of discrimination may require an employer to reinstate the employee, pay uncapped compensation and pay a civil penalty of up to $33,000 a contravention. The workplace Ombudsman (the Fair Work Ombudsman's predecessor) has demonstrated its capacity to enforce workplace laws effectively.

The new general protection have been overshadowed by public focus on other aspects of the act but they have not been lost on the unions, which have indicated a readiness to use these new rights with full effectiveness. The general protection are sure to leave their mark on the industrial landscape.

Alex Manon is a senior associate and Nick Ruskin a partner at DLA Philips Fox

Source: Australian Financial Review, July 8, 2009
Go to the roadshows, talk to AIPA. If you don't like what you hear, pool your money and the buy a good workplace lawyer.

[Mstr Caution]

Dragon man,

It's a long way before any retrenchment ocurrs in mainline.

One departments intent (read forward planning) takes some time to filter thru to that of another.

What some departments forward planning contingencies shall be would also result from what concessions are available from AIPA at the present time.

Best explained as "what concessions we get will, determine the way forward".

Or, if we (read they) don't get the concessions we seek, we may just have to activate the the J* / Mainline MOU.

[dragon man]

Mstr Caution, those numbers were from Flight Ops to AIPA. They are not a figment of my imagination. It was discussed at yesterdays com meeting and will be further discussed at the road shows.

[Qanchor]

Before either of these draconian measures are even half considered, would management care to confirm that all exectutive bonuses will be eschewed until further notice.

[mohikan]

This entire affair reeks of Ian Oldmeadow yet again.

There have been many downturns in QF's history, why suddenly does this one require 160 S/O's to be sacked ?

I am wondering if this is the beginning of the process to thin out the ranks to prepare for the massive surplus that will occur when the B787 arrives and is not flown by mainline pilots

[Mstr Caution]

Dragon Man,

I am not questioning your statement. I have no doubt these figures were presented by managament.

However, the J* / Mainline MOU is "dormant". The company has not yet indicated activating the transfer of mainline to J*.

I would expect an activation of the MOU to J* whilst "they" continune to recruit prior to any redundancies in Mainline. There are redundancy protection clauses inserted in the MOU.

The most recent SO's to join mainline are not covered by the MOU as they were not employed at the time the MOU was signed. However those with more seniority in mainline could utilise the MOU transfer to protect those more junior.


Already highlighted in another thread is the fact "preserved" seniority positions in Jetstar would allow mainliners to transfer to A330 Captain positions.

So my statement, reduncies are a way off yet. Is with reference to contigencies such as MOU transfer, reduction to incremental pay increases or any other contingency yet to be announced or negotiated.

[illusion]

Unfortunately, redundancies are an unfortunate fact of life in the economic cycle. Perhaps mainline is no longer the holy grail of aviation that some thought it once was.

Why not consider applying for a job (on your own merits) and stop trying to hide the skirt of an MOU. What makes you think that just because you are a QF pilot it automatically entitles you yo a seat with a separate organisation? Get on with it and leave the sheltered workshop.

That is how 90 percent of the general population live.

[Poto]

Why not consider applying for a job (on your own merits) and stop trying to hide the skirt of an MOU. What makes you think that just because you are a QF pilot it automatically entitles you yo a seat with a separate organisation? Get on with it and leave the sheltered workshop.


If 330's were not being gifted, If QF routes were not being gifted. If Mainline profit did not buy any Jet Star aircraft in Oz and O/S, If QF ground staff and facilities were not being used to support this false economy of Jet star then this statemnent might stick. :rolleyes:

separate It's all an Illusion- Illusion:=

[bobhoover]

With your comments being so educated and detailed Illusion, could you enlighten us to how the remaining 10% of the general population live their lives?

[Sand dune Sam]

I feel sorry fo the QF guys as a matter of fact illusion...the question as to whether QF is the last bastion of good pay and conditions is superflous to the underlying issue...that being flying is being given away and transferred to other flying cost centers in the QF business to the detriment of those jobs in the core business..

How is it fair that pilots in New Zealand ( Jetconnect and Jetstar NZ) reap the rewards at the expense of Australian Qantas jobs?

As for Jetstar..well there wouldn't be a Jetstar without QF. I dont wish to turn this into a QF versus Jetstar slanging match, however I'd be pretty p!ssed off if someone came in and undercut me by 40% and then I had to put up with management rubbing my nose in it....constantly....

[Mstr Caution]

Illusion -

The opposite is also true. Should redundancies ocurr at any time in J*, then the MOU affords transfer to mainline to the reserved seniority positions.

Persons with a little more foresight sought these protections when the MOU was formulated years ago in profitable times to protect the interests of those in times like these.

You obviously have no idea what conditions would cause mainline management to trigger the clause in the said MOU.

As for a "separate organisation", your joking right?

[aerostatic]

How is it fair that pilots in New Zealand ( Jetconnect and Jetstar NZ) reap the rewards at the expense of Australian Qantas jobs?
This should not be a slanging match between pilots - it is management that make these decisions. Pilots, like anyone in the workforce, is entitled to apply for a job on the free market just like anyone else. Jetconnect, for example, has not had any expansion for years. It operates 6 lines of flying, and will continue to operate 6 lines of flying. 300s are being replaced by 800s and eventually the 400s will also be replaced. There are good business reasons (time zone, and yes cheaper wages) for operating these services from NZ. What all pilots in the group should be pushing for is a Group Opportunity List so that pilots can bid for positions across all businesses (subject to meeting seniority, experience, competency, and right of abode requirements). That would actually improve the efficiency of the pilot work force and give more flexibility during these difficult times. Qantas continues to fragment it's business units, but eventually it will pay a heavy price for this strategy (IMHO). In fact, you could argue they are already paying a high price with the Jetstar NZ operation going way off the rails! If they had pumped the same amount of money into the QF NZ (Jetconnect) domestic operation it would have been extremely competitive if you ask me. So why can't the unions that represent the pilots of the different business units get together and push for a GOL? I guess they are all too busy defending their own turf?

[aerostatic]

At the risk of being seriously flamed, I'd like to expand of what I wrote above. The number 1 priority of a union is to survive, to continue to exist. It can only do this if it has financial members, and the more the better! When push comes to shove, it will always put it's own interests ahead of those of it's members. Most of the time these interests coincide, but occasionally some members will be 'sacrificed' in the interests of defending their turf and keeping the highest possible membership. Imagine if all these QF SO's who are facing the axe right now had been given the option to transfer to Jetstar Au, or Jetstar NZ, or Jetconnect (ok, not recruiting at the moment), or Jetstar Asia, or Vietnam? The redundancies would evaporate because some of the business units are experiencing expansion, while others are contracting (mainline). Unfortunately, the free transfer of labour between business units tends to be against the interests of the unions (turf protection) and hence they try and convince their members it is also against their interests. Members of the various unions should be demanding transfer provisions in their contract agreements. In my view, the only way this will succeed is if the unions talk to one another and draw up some boundary lines so that they can be assured of maintaining a sustainable level of membership, and hence survival of the union. You see, the unions are playing right into the hands of the senior management by pitting their members against those of the other unions, in the interests of survival of the union.

Declaration: I am not anti unionisation, I am a member of a pilot union myself. We just need to get them working more for the members and less for themselves.

[missing link]

Well of course the S/O's could always go to Q/Link and fly the Dash - but they would have to do an interview, sim ride , IQ/Skills test and go to the bottom of the seniority list.........................Just like QLink drivers do!;)

[Tankengine]

Aerostatic,
Your second post could not be further from the truth!

AIPA has been pushing movement between sections of the group for years!:ugh:

[vigi-one]

Missing Link, watch the change in attitude when the link announces an order of 4 C-Jets early 2010.

[ROH111]

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Yesterday, 11:46 #15 (http://www.pprune.org/5061450-post15.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/381197-qf-piot-retrenchments.html#post5061450)) illusion (http://www.pprune.org/members/156405-illusion)

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 103


Unfortunately, redundancies are an unfortunate fact of life in the economic cycle. Perhaps mainline is no longer the holy grail of aviation that some thought it once was.

Why not consider applying for a job (on your own merits) and stop trying to hide the skirt of an MOU. What makes you think that just because you are a QF pilot it automatically entitles you yo a seat with a separate organisation? Get on with it and leave the sheltered workshop.

That is how 90 percent of the general population live.


Illusion,

Apply for a job on your own merits? Mate, we all did when we got into Qantas.
Jetstar is NOT a separate organisation, it is written on the side of the aircraft (QANTAS GROUP)... how is that separate?
Sheltered workshop? Perhaps it is, however NONE of the junior pilots in QF are sheltered, we have had to work hard for what we acheived.
Speaking purely for my group on the ground school, we are all ex GA (upto 10 years experience) REX check and training, Military from RAAF to British Airforce, Army etc... If we are all chopped, well, we have all battled to get to where we got to, we no doubt will continue to battle to get our next job and it's likely we will get one before you finish your GFPT.

[Capt Kremin]

One of the rumours flying around now is that the two new A330's supposedly going to Mainline at the end of this year will now be re-routed to J*, along with a current mainline airframe that was going to J* anyway.

This is all wrapped up in the delay of the 787.

Instead of a net increase of one A330 to Mainline, they may have a net loss of one airframe.

This will mean a further surplus of mainline pilots as a direct result of the perceived need to expand Jetstar International.

Please don't tell me Jetstar is a separate airline. It is only separate when it suits them. AIPA had better be very careful with what they do with the Sale Act case. It may be the only bit of leverage they have left.

[waren9]

So the question becomes

How many QF pilots will take up an MOU spot with Jetstar to save the jobs of the most junior S/O's?

And, of those, how many would be prepared to resign from Qantas altogether so that they may take a Jetstar command?

I might suggest that those who would do this already have availed themselves of the opportunity.

Keg?

[DutchRoll]

Agreed, Kremin.

Whether or not Jetstar is "separate" from QF mainline heavily depends upon which direction the money is flowing at the time.......

[4PW's]

Just flew to Singapore from Cairns on JQ.

The flight crew got off in Darwin. Three pilots got on, two at the controls, one in the back to position to Singapore and fly back to Darwin.

Did I mention the flight to Cairns from Singapore a week or so earlier?

Flight crew change in Darwin. New flight crew flew to Cairns, stayed with the airplane from the 0800 arrival until the midday departure back to Darwin. As above, they got off on arrival Darwin, three pilots got on...

This is the future of Qantas I see. How it happened, I have no idea.

[Bypass ratio]

The future of Qantas is...........there is no future. Get out while you can. Qantas has not been the "Holy Grail" of aviation at least since the beginning of 2000. Jetstar is expanding at the expense of Qantas and if you mainline pilots can't see that then you are completely blind.:ugh::ugh:

[breakfastburrito]

quote from PPRuNE 2019
The future of Jetstar is...........there is no future. Get out while you can. Jetstar has not been the "Holy Grail" of aviation at least since the beginning of 2010. Jetstar-Lite is expanding at the expense of Jetstar and if you mainline pilots can't see that then you are completely blind.:ugh::ugh:Get the point? Be careful what you wish for.

[Going Boeing]

It is important for every pilot who is available to go to the current round of QF FltOps management/AIPA briefings. You will get the facts and the suggested solutions to avoid redundancies but this is definitely not the forum to discuss them. The AIPA e-mail and survey that comes out today are important and I urge every QF pilot to return the survey promptly as the results will determine which of the solutions are used.

Bypass ratio, you obviously haven't been listening to the latest comments by Joyce about Jetstar having nearly reached the limit of its expansion.

[Keg]

The first Mainline pilot redundancy will signal the beginning of the recovery.

Lol @ Directanywhere. He/she is probably spot on the money.

I've told this story a couple of times previously on PPRUNE but in April '94 they gathered a bunch of the cadets to Sydney and told us that employment with QF was 3-5 years away so go and enjoy life and if we were still available when QF called in that time frame then well and good. QF employed the first cadet two months later and all 80+ of us were in by the following January.

Two years ago when QF was forecasting unprecedented training over the next few years a number of us on the line started to get very nervous. They've predicted that a couple of times before- late 2000, early 2001 was the one time. If Ansett hadn't fallen over they would have been spectacularly wrong. Another time was just before SARs and things got pretty quiet post that too. QF generally start employing and promoting crew 3-6 months too late, why should their decisions be any different now.

Waren9, not sure what you're asking me about. Will I take an MOU slot? No. Taking a 20% pay cut to do what I'm doing now won't thrill the missus or the bank manager. Would I do it to save a S/O? Not sure how that actually works out. I've said my piece elsewhere about how I felt I could support S/Os.

All that aside, given my place in the seniority pile there are plenty of guys that could take advantage of the MoU for a promotion and actually earn more than they do now. Will they do it? Dunno, I've been on leave for the last 8 1/2 weeks so I haven't spoken to anyone on the line for quite a while.

Remember too it was only 18 months or so ago that the then CP would not release any QF crew to fly under the MoU, despite more than a couple wanting to take that option.

[Alien Role]

How perceptive DirectAnywhere, and I see that Keg picked up on your thinking......
By the time the public service, beaurocratic management style of Qantas get around to initiating redundancies, with the oncosts that will occur, the economic recovery will be in full swing!
The GOL as proposed by Ian Woods must be the answer, as one section of the Group employing whilst Qantas is contemplating redundancies would have to be the height of commercial stupidity.

Role on.....

[Dragun]

ROH111

Apply for a job on your own merits? Mate, we all did when we got into Qantas. Jetstar is NOT a separate organisation, it is written on the side of the aircraft (QANTAS GROUP)... how is that separate?I agree 100%! However, if Eastern or Sunstate were to start making FO's redundant and mainline were still hiring, do you think those FOs would be tranferred into SO jobs with no questions asked and no retesting? The idea of sending SO's to Jetstar or other group jobs is a fantastic one - but for those of us at Qlink who had to do some or all mainline retesting again (less than 2 years after passing it to get into Qlink) only to get a letter of intent and subsequently be told due to the down turn, when the time comes for recruitment again we have to redo ALL testing all over again for the THIRD time, the idea isn't so fair.

Even though we pass 4 cyclics a year in the Qantas sim building and having the flying kangaroo painted on the tail of the Dash8 - we're still treated like separate pilots working for a completely separate company. The door swings both ways.

Bring on the GOL!

[Mr. Hat]

..............if Jetstar were to start making FO's redundant and mainline were still hiring, do you think those FOs would be tranferred into SO jobs with no questions asked and no retesting?

[Sand dune Sam]

I dont see how a GOL is possible with QF group companies....how does that work when you have NZ based operations operating under a NZ AoC and then want to merge that with an Australian company.

aerostatic..I dont disagree with your succinct summation of unions, however if the shoe was on the other foot and Air NZ were farming flying out to Australian companies at the expense of Kiwi jobs...well, all hell would break loose in NZ wouldnt it?

waren9..not all pilots see undercutting a mainline brand in order to fill there own logbook with jet hours as a reasonable solution these days..

[Dragun]

Yea thanks for that Mr.Hat :rolleyes:- I was referring to the Qantas GROUP and any of the subsids that could be substituted for that word space. Which one doesn't matter - the principle is the same.

My point was that if the situation was reversed with any of the other group airlines, mainline wouldn't just accept those made redundant straight into SO positions without any retesting.

[mcgrath50]

With the recent changes making the cadetship participants having to retest before going in i'm surprised you aren't made to retest as part of your recurrent training!

[NOTAM]

Spot on Dragun! I doubt that mainline would be so quick to take on a heap of Jetstar or Eastern guys in a hurry if it was the other way round! Why should mainline guys feel its is their god given right to take jobs elsewhere? Typical Q selfish mentality:yuk:

[Tassie Devil]

Qantas mainline made their bed in the 90's and now they are screaming they dont like it.

[Capt Kremin]

Notam (and Dragun), you have no idea. The policies regarding transfer between various parts of the group are set by management, and no-one else.
Try drawing the gun first before shooting your toes off.

[Hugh Jarse]

It appears to me there are a few people here who seem to be somewhat deluded as to the reality of the Qantas group. Qantas, Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are all separate companies, hence no reciprocal employment entitlements exist between the four (with exception to the QF/JQ MOU), in both good times and bad. That's the way QF wants it to be....

Who remembers when the 30 or so Impulse pilots were retrenched a few years back? Basically they were booted (with a right of return clause), and given the opportunity to apply for employment at Eastern. Employment was conditional upon successful completion of the Eastern recruitment process at the time (Sim + interview) and positions being available.

In order to maintain consistency, I can not see why it would (or should) be any different for any other pilot in any of the group companies (under the current circumstances). Sure, give them a shot - however they will still need to complete whatever processes that the target airline requires (assuming there are vacancies).

From what I understand, Eastern and Sunstate are VERY bottom-heavy at the moment.

Lots of luck!

[Tankengine]

The number of $8 million to be saved by the Second Officer retrenchments has been mentioned.:confused:
IF this can be saved by the Pilot body by LWOP etc [as has been suggested] then really we only need about 30 Captains to take LWOP to cover that!:}
How many over 60s are there??:E

[KABOY]

Kremin,

Before you accuse others of incorrect statements I will spell out a FACT for you. In around 2001 a QF company which was being closed down sought assistance to redeploy it's staff(pilots). Mainline(management) indicated that the greatest hurdle in this was AIPA,FACT!

Industrial issues sit on both sides, don't think it is management. Feel free to message me and I will enlighten you with numerous details of some key players within the QF management who indicated this.

[Captain Marvel]

I don't see what the big problem is?

A pilot takes a leave of absence from QF and applies to JQ. If they meet the entry requirements and pass the JQ skills test and interview, then they are offered a position at a base as required by JQ at the bottom of the JQ seniority list. If they don't like the T&C or basing, they go elsewhere.

At the end of their QF leave of absence, they either go back to QF if there is a position available, stay with JQ, or go elsewhere.

It was reported that JQ is forecast 10% growth this financial year, QF declining 2-5%. Seems the prospects for career progression would be much better at JQ anyway. If you are near the bottom of the QF list, you are likely to remain there for a very very long time.

I wish those facing the axe at QF, the very best in being able to secure employment in other parts of the group if that is what they want.

I cannot believe people on the forum would rather see you thrown out on the street. Very sad the pent up anger people such as Tassie Devil and KABOY have - must be a real hoot to fly with them.

[Tassie Devil]

Please dont concern yourself about how I am in the cockpit, I dont really feel bitter . You can research any of my posts and you will see the theme of everything I have complained about is the attitude that the Qantas group owes mainline pilots a job if they are not wanted. They can have an interview and thats it, no promises just the way AIPA wanted it. Thats all I have ever said!

[KABOY]

Marvel,

I welcome the opportunity to fly with you on the A 330 some time very soon, then you can pass judgement on me.

[Going Boeing]

For those who haven't yet gone to a briefing sesion, the problem with the MOU is that Jetstar is refusing to take any mainline pilots because the KRudd/Gillard Industrial legislation that came into effect 1Jul09 requires for conditions to be transferred along with the staff, i.e. Jetstar would be forced to pay QF pay rates and all the other conditions of employment. Legal advice to both QF management & AIPA indicates that there may be a way around this hurdle but it is taking time - in the meantime JQ keeps recruiting for its Darwin base. At this critical stage, eveyone should be attending the briefings rather than slagging off at management or AIPA based on a total lack of the facts.

Joyce and Strambi are aware of the adverse PR effects of JQ recruiting externally while QF mainline pilots face the sack and have indicated support to find a way around the IR legislation.

[Capt Kremin]

Kaboy, the FACT of the matter is that AIPA would have no input into the recruitment of pilots from outside mainline unless it was proposed that they take positions out of seniority i.e. coming in as FO's and Captains.

AIPA does not set the recruitment standards or is it involved in any of that side of things.

If these pilots were to be deployed as FO's in mainline, that would be an industrial situation and I can see why AIPA would get involved, as would be the same if the situation was reversed.

[Qanchor]

Dear AIPA,
Suggest you go slow with this one. By the time the QF (public service-like) bureaucrats come up with a fix, we'll be out of this mess and there will be no need to lay-off anyone.
Might actually be the first time in QF's history that it catches the employment pendulum at the right time and we won't have to then live with the consequences of making a faustian deal in haste.

[longjohn]

Meanwhile nearly 2000 QF employees are being made redundant in various other parts of the business.

Little wonder that Qantas are growing anywhere BUT mainline.

Wake up boys and girls, you are only a protected species so long as the zoo survives. Now is the time to signal a real willingness to engage in structural reform not to quote decades old EBA clauses in blind hope that the economic winds will blow more favourably.

The path that AIPA are taking you down may very well turn out to be somewhere in the garden.

[Dragun]

Capt Kremin

Where did I write that the policies were written by anyone other than management? You've obviously completely missed the point. I wasn't arguing which agreements are in place, what they are or where they came from - I was arguing that the consistency of the situation is lacking if pilots want to transfer between group companies.

Try drawing the gun first before shooting your toes off.

[Keith Myath]

Anyone remember a small Qantas group company (jet operator) that was wound up and what happened to its employees? Hello Southern. Pilots were not good enough for mainline but fine for Cathay and Dragon. Go figure. The biggest impediment to successfully applying to a Qantas group company is being in a Qantas group company. There are plenty of Qantas group trained pilots plying their trade in direct competition to their old alma mater. This situation looks like the first time that mainliners are going to be on the receiving end of the bastardisation that is policy at QF HQ. The only difference is they now have motivation and numbers to change the bastardisation policy for the better. The bigger question is do they have the leadership to make this happen.

[hotnhigh]

I say let them burn long john.
So many outdated eba provisions, flying near 900 hours a year, the ability to have your days off infringed, read blown out of the water, having silly flight time limitations that enable lhr-bkk, bkk-lhr 3 man crew but then silly 4 man down to oz rather than paxiing someone home, and redundancy entitlemnts that make it near impossible to sack anyone at the top. Its little wonder that others outside the organisation, deemed it fit to correct this ridiculous situation by negotiating contracts to operate aircraft in a much more favourable manner (even though no one's job was under threat!) so that these draconian conditions could be erradicated foreever. Good one hero.

[Capt Kremin]

Dragun, I was responding primarily to Kaboy who seems to believe that AIPA controls QF recruitment.

[KABOY]

Kremin,

You appear to have contradicted yourself between your first post attacking Dragun and then myself.

Recruitment policies were not discussed in management discussions in 2001.

If you want facts I suggest you contact me, rather than make assertions.

[What The]

So, what did you expect?

Direct entry at the bottom of the seniority list?

Or did you go for broke like the legends of the amalgamation period and demand datal seniority?

Tell us KA BOY. What were your expectations and why do you now feel so bitter?

[rescue 1]

Is the answer AIPA pushing the contracting out line, and get back the flying from Jetconnect, Cobham, EFA etc?

Though in saying that, those guys loose out??:confused:

[QFinsider]

The venom being spat is understandable, Australians always can be relied upon to do it to each other when envy is involved.

Have any of the vitriolic posters here considered that the people likely affected by this potential turn of events were nowhere near the company or union until the recent past? They are real young people with families in many cases doing the same hard luck yards in GA. They were fortunate (or good enough) to get selected and now face an uncertain time. They didn't create the division but you sure maintain it.

You make Oldmeadow's job so easy..

[Tassie Devil]

Not being good enough, Qantas regional pilots had to watch the non Qantas regional pilots getting selected as if they already had a seniorority number at Qantas, like 10 a month to our 1 in 5 years. Then they wind us up and we got a token interview wich 1 or 2 got in. Thats how the group takes care of its own . How ever because your mainline you got more of a right to any job anywhere in the group. Every argument your using was used by us , it made no difference then and it should make none now.

[bushy]

Training is not free, and airlines would rather train one pilot than two.

[Bundy Bear]

Ah you have to love the 'tall poppie' attitude of aussie's.

All we are discussing is how the QF boys can save about 100 blokes/girls from losing their job, but some cannot help themselves from starting a bashing match against the Qf pilots and their award.

I know it might be stating the obvious ... but... If any of the people were not with QF they would be sitting next to you, regeardless of where they came from, we all do the same **** and are just happy to get home each day !

Big picture everyone

Imagine if it was you after just joining !!!:ugh:

[Tassie Devil]

Use what ever names you want, just keep in mind your asking a pilot group to support your idea of looking after a few brothers who are not needed in mainline when the same senerio was reveresed not that long ago and the silence was deafening.
I'm about finished here , its been good thearapy . I personally left a long time ago and should have listened to the 89er's earlier and got out years before I did . Thanks for the advise and yes you were right.
Good luck to THE GROUP !

[Capt Kremin]

I gotta agree. Here we are talking about the possible retrenchment of pilots who were still in school when some of these incidents supposedly occurred, and people are willing to stick the knife into them because they happen to be members of big bad AIPA. Get a grip!

Mainline pilots are not expecting to enter VB, or Tiger or even Q-Link. Jetstar however is a different kettle of fish. Qantas, Jetstar and AIPA pilots are signatories to an MOU. That is the difference. If I was a Judge trying to decide whether or not there was a connection between the airlines and the MOU was waved under my nose, it would be hard to conclude otherwise.

It is a crap document, however it exists and it is legal. Jetstar pilots are flying aircraft gifted to the airline from mainline. One day those aircraft are slated to return to mainline. The latest mainline seniority list was just published with a stack of Jetstar MOU slots on it.

There is a link between the two that cannot be denied. Therefore if mainline pilots are retrenched and not able to take up slots in Jetstar, I can only conclude that what an AIPA VP told me will be true. I don't want to get inflammatory, because I know this board has a wide readership, but lets us say that the gloves will be well and truly off.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Gotta wonder what it's gonna take for team Bazza to realise the time has passed to get the gloves off.

If my source is correct then the membership should be concerned that the AIPA EXEC stymied a COM briefing this month from the Barrister actually conducting the QF Sale Act Case !

Talk about soft! They can't handle the truth!:mad:

[Lookleft]

Would the MOU help those who are facing retrenchment? Those facing retrenchment would not have been in mainline when the MOU was signed and that would make them ineligible.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Some of the posts here are beyond belief. Y generation predominately by the looks of the childish remarks posted by "professionals". Im using that term extremely loosely!.

Best of luck to the descent guys affected.

Doug.

[lemel]

As a pilot I can say that I love my job, but hate the aviation industry!!!
Any wanna be pilots listen up - if you think that you will one day be a rich captain flying for Qantas, you are wrong. If you got in to QF right now, it would be at least 15 years, if not more, before you get a look at a command position (if there are any QF guys that think/know I am wrong please correct me).

I believe that QF will shrink and only provide a service on high yielding routes with lots of business class flyers. The rest of it will go to jetstar, where the salaries a significantly lower. You also have to pay for your endorsement. Dont get me started on this.

I pray for the day when young guys and gals cringe at the thought of becoming a pilot and joining this industry. Its only when this happens that there will be less pilots to go around and then we can maybe enjoy good conditions like other industries.

Sorry about the negativity. Dont mean to upset anyone. Just venting.

[Keg]

If you got in to QF right now, it would be at least 15 years, if not more, before you get a look at a command position (if there are any QF guys that think/know I am wrong please correct me).

Pretty close to the money at the moment. Took me 13 1/2 for a Sydney base. Some guys went to AO in Cairns after 9-11 years but there is no way I could have done that to OIC home command. Some recent guys who took Perth based 737 commands also did it in 9-11 years I think. MEL 767 command was a little more junior than mine but not by much.

As to how long it will take those that join now, it depends on whether we have some sort of GOAL in the future. If we don't then I fear the rest of your assessment may be spot on.

[blow.n.gasket]

Correct Lookleft,
However if eligible pilots took up the MOU positions then the result would be the same ,would it not?
Saving pilots from possible retrenchment.

[carbonneutral]

Some are about to lose there jobs and this tosser wants to hold onto to his F/O spot.

I think the idea is that if he keeps his F/O slot he's not taking an S/O slot from someone who would otherwise be retrenched...

[ROH111]

Quote from all the old people I know...


"ooohh well..."


Ever noticed that?

[High-Bypass]

I know a few turboprop drivers who have recently been employed by Jetstar. (Starting this month and next month) If anyone from mainline goes across to Jetstar will they be junior to Mr/Mrs Turboprop who joined the company earlier??

The people i know at Jetstar all reckon the people transfering will be regarded as lowest seniority??

[Keg]

I don't want to be rude or flame you...

All evidence to the contrary! :}

... but as a CAPT you should be aware of how your comments can be construed.

You mean taken completely out of context like you have done? I suppose I should allow for poor comprehension skills when I make a statement. My comments were in direct response to lemel's post who basically asked if his assessment of time to command in QF was accurate. My numbers were to illustrate how long it is currently is and some of the variables.

Then again, you taking my comments out of context are consistent with how you've taken that former classic S/Os. I'm not going to bother going through that here though I do note the lack of comment along your line of thought (labeling him a moron and taking him to task over six years of SYD-PER-SYD in the back seat, etc) on Qrewroom.

Only a moron would not consider the possibility of protecting those in rank as well as protecting those who are potentially going to be made redundant. Protecting the latter protects the former and vice versa.

There is moronic behaviour around, no doubt. I just reckon you're looking in the wrong place to find it pigs. Try a mirror perhaps. :E :}

High-bypass. There are a number of 'reserved' seniority numbers on the J* seniority list for QF pilots employed when the MoU went active- 7 in every 20 slots new slots after that date would have the potential to be taken up by QF pilots. These reserved numbers are only able to be allocated to pilots employed at the date of the MoU and new QF pilots would not be able to avail themselves of the MoU slots. Same applies for J* pilots employed after that date wanting to take up the reserved J* seniority numbers on the QF list. Depending on the deal negotiated, any junior S/O who goes to J* instead of being made redundant would likely be on the bottom of the J* pile.

[breakfastburrito]

pigsarse, big man. You take something someone else says on a named forum, but yet choose to reply on a (un)anonymous forum, why is that? It really take guts.
Stand up like a man and name yourself or retract & pray the individual chooses not to sue you for defamation.

[wateroff]

Yeah those lowly inexperienced Turboprop drivers - goddamm- flying around at the most favourable levels, carrying unlimited amounts of fuel, flying from ILS to ILS in brand new machines with the latest technnology - not having to worry about much.

Some of the current turboprop drivers have quite a bit of expereince on some of those fandangled planes with no them thar airscrews - they have just been unfortunately caught up in the GFC.

Careful on the comments, the bigger they get the easier they get- try no to convince yourself otherwise.

[mcgrath50]

I wonder how much money the new website cost?

[Dragun]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the MOU between J* and QF only apply to those QF pilots who started on or prior to December 2004 (pretty much like Keg mentioned without dates)? In other words, the MOU has zero effect on this situation regardless of where they place in seniority? Any transfer would have to be under a whole other agreement or worst case, direct entry.

Right?

[Metroboy]

That is correct Dragun. I am working from memory here, but the MOU only applies to "eligible pilots", the definition of which is something similar to your post. Pretty much those employed in either company as at the date of execution. So any transfers of recently hired QF SO's could not be under the MOU and if they tried to do it there would be grievances. The reason is that the MOU entitles you to slot in at a reserved seniority number, whereas if you went in direct entry you would of course start at the bottom.

MB

[Mstr Caution]

The most recent SO's to join mainline are not covered by the MOU as they were not employed at the time the MOU was signed. However those with more seniority in mainline could utilise the MOU transfer to protect those more junior.


Already highlighted in another thread is the fact "preserved" seniority positions in Jetstar would allow mainliners to transfer to A330 Captain positions.

So my statement, reduncies are a way off yet. Is with reference to contigencies such as MOU transfer, reduction to incremental pay increases or any other contingency yet to be announced or negotiated.


As per my post # 14

[WoodenEye]

Went to yesterday's AIPA meeting on Managing the Pilot Surplus and judging from what was said by the 100 or so persons present, believe the majority of Mainline pilots will not take kindly to making financial comprises whilst Jetstar and Jetconnect continue to recruit new hires and Mainline continues to shrink.

Personally believe that Qantas desperately needs a unified group of pilots before it can start considering what it wants to do to take advantage of opportunity Open Skies globalisation is likely to throw up, and provided concessions aren’t given without also securing career progress; redundancy may well be avoided?

Yes, saving jobs probably needs to be accompanied by some form of financial comprise that not only accommodates the current financial crisis, but also helps with reform that will keep Qantas competitive and its pilots well remunerated. For what it is worth, I suggested to AIPA’s CoM:

Whilst members obviously prefer cash, corporations wanting to ‘cut cash burn’ will often encourage employees to take Equity in lieu and prima facie there are compelling commercial, financial and operational reasons to offset future pay rises against equity in the Company.At the end of the day however, it is the Membership that has to vote in favour of any such change.

[caneworm]

-800 driver,
We've all made typo's before, don't sweat the small stuff matey:ok:

[Qanchor]

i suspect cane worm was trying to prevent a pedant like you dwelling on irrelevant matters. now then lads, no more to & fro nonsense please and back to the thread

[teresa green]

Settle down lads, this is history repeating its self, and in a couple of years time recuitment will be on again, big time, at my age I have been thru waiting for the shoulder tap on more than one occasion, it did not come, but I know the waiting feeling. As you are all probably aware the JQ boys and girls are flying their butts off, indeed some have been called in from holidays to work, especially on the A330, whilst QF pilots are sitting on their arses, also on the A330, and it is being strongly considered to send 6 A330's wet (both tech and C/C) to JQ, the A/C in JQ colours, tech crew on QF wages, c/c in JQ uniforms and on QF wages,to ease the situation, now this might enrage some of you even more, some will be grateful for the work, some will say you can wave goodbye to those A330's they will be lost in a big black hole known as JQ for evermore, but whilst the travelling public are using JQ more than ever and mainline is in the doldrums due to the economic climate it makes sense, because like it or not it is JQ that is bringing in the bacon right now. Now before you all start blowing your gaskets (both JQ and QF) it is only being cosidered, my source? somebody up very very high in JQ (not a pilot) it might not happen, but it could, and there is bugger all you can do about it in this current situation, if for no other reason than at least some of you are working, even if it makes some of you QF blokes feel like throwing up as you board, it beats not working and feeling extremely uneasy all the time, time will tell.

[campdoag]

Hopefully this is not where we are headed...........

LAX parking lot is home away from home for airline workers - Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lax-colony20-2009jul20,0,4549617.story?page=1)

[caneworm]

Qanchor,
just as i was deciding whether to respond to her (or not) you piped up with a pearler. could'nt have said it better meself.
by the way, cool username

[mohikan]

Ahhhh TG - yet another one foot in the grave retired captain suffering from relevance deprevation syndrome.....

Your 'high up' contact in JQ is obviously your source for the information that as far as QF group profitability goes JQI is 'bringing home the bacon'

This is so far wrong it is laughable.

JQI has been destroyed in Japan and yield everywhere else, especially on those routes 'gifted' from mainline is through the floor also (see Hnl for example)

It may well be that more A330's are gifted to JQI.

So be it.

But be clear that this decision will be about ego, hubris and IR ideology driving a business decision, rather then cost or revenue benefit analysis.

[waren9]

Read his post again, matey. He didnt say JQI was bringing home the bacon.

[Ramboflyer 1]

As a QF 330 driver I would rather sit at home on $250k than work my arse off at JQ. If im forced to go to JQ it will be on QF salary, If not ill retrain on something else in QF B767/737 whatever. Easy choice really.:eek:

[Kangaroo Court]

I'm trying to sort through the poor spelling, punctuation and grammar and am left to believe that the problems at Qantas started in Human Resources quite a long time ago!

Some of this argument and sentence construction could be better put together by the average fourteen year old.

(Does "Wooden Eye" work at QF?)

[havetobe]

Exactly....as posted above. Part of the problem for mine. As for the people currently being employed by JQ, I am sure they have applied and put themselves out to get there. Possibly even chosen to seek employment at JQ to suit their specific requirements as opposed to entry level QF longhaul. I am sure, when the current QF SO's who are unfortunately at risk at the moment, chose to seek employment or undetake selection with QF, that suited their needs or wants.
Hopefully no one loses a job and if those at risk have an agreement allowing them transition to JQ, then fair enough, but sorry if not, the application forms are different! Definitely feel for those that have done it tough to get there though.

Thanks.

[mohikan]

The S/O's under threat are not covered by the MOU so there is bucklies chance of them being taken up by JQ.

As usual the JQ pilots contributing to this forum are viewing what is being discussed through the lens of their own victim mentality syndrome.

No one is talking about taking your jobs or disadvantaging you in any way, despite the fact that thats EXACTLY what JQ and JQI has done to mainline pilots.

Also, the political aspect of this process means that mainline 'pollution' will not be allowed to seep into JQ. Not now, not ever.

Having said that, you can see how the effected S/O's might feel a little non plussed at their situation when its been generated mostly by the fact that aircraft and routes were / are given to another airline.

And when one considers how RH and his mates set up the JQI deal, then it puts the whole thing into context further.

[skybed]

as they will take over HNL seven days a week by christmas:eek:

[yadot]

With the reqruitment excitement and energy experienced over 18 months ago it caught managers across Qantas, Virgin, Rex, QantasLink and many other airlines in the emotion and off target when things went south.:confused:

These companies have employed people so freely, scraping the bottom of the barrel in some cases last year, going overseas to look for people on 457 visas. So much for looking after our own back yard.


These companies should be encouraged to have a moral obligation and responsibility to their employees. Whilst companies should have flexibility to continue to be successful in a highly competitive industry on a global scale, the expenses associated with pilot employment would be significantly considered in a company such as Qantas for the long term benefit.

The economy will swing around. At this stage, Qantas management are looking at opportunities to cut costs out of the business to make it a stronger and more competive industry leader when the economy lifts again. It would be disappointing to see the pilot group, under pressure of this sought, be forced to accept long term depreciation to employment packages, just to fix this short term overcarriage of pilots....which was managements fault in the first place! From a managers point of view, I would be trying to screw out all the dead wood. One area is to cut costs through employment packages. Just remember, all pilots in Qantas are affected by this, from the top of the seniority list to the bottom and even those yet to be employed. Don't be fooled!:ugh:

[caneworm]

Teresa,
If what you're saying is correct about the 330's going wet lease to J.I. why not simply leave the balus' in QF livery, cabin crew in QF uniform and just run the service as a charter. The cub's wouldn't know if they are on a 330, DC6 or Zeppelin, it's simply a machine to get them from home to some place warm, get the hair braided, maybe get a new tattoo and then come home. The in-flight service could be downgraded to align with J.I. catering policy. Might even make it easier for the "group accountants" to disguise and/or bury the cost as an expense to J* and bill it back to mainline.... now there's an idea!
No need for aircraft repainting and uniform re-issue unless there's a hidden agenda here.
Hmm, (c'worm looks up and to the right with hand on chin), I smells a rat with this idea I's do.[sic]

Longjohn,
Don't get too excited with Rambo's declaration of malingering, he's just stirring the pot to make us hardworking mainliners look bad. :ouch:
He's not a QF pilot, hell he probably doesn't even work for an Australia airline. Nice try rambo, but no cigar.:=

[Capt Kremin]

Yes I don't know which is more sad... ramboflyers post or the willingness of others to believe he is a QF pilot...:yuk:

[teresa green]

Caneworm, I suggest that the Balus goes into JQ colors because they have no intention of handing them back! As for the other gentleman who sees me as surplus, you are quite correct, but as I have three sprogs working at the sharp end for different companies (which sometimes makes for some rather uncomfortable family B-B-Qs at times) even though I am no longer a working Airline Pilot, I am not completely brain dead, and as I never done anything else to earn a quid, I take a keen interest in their careers, indeed in what happens to all of you and the companies you work for, it is interesting to see history unfold in the Aviation industry, so humor me please!

[Rabbitwear]

Qantas is Qantas, Im senior enough to hold a command on something else in QF , Let the 330 g0 to JQ on their pitiful conditions they begged for.
They are different companies and if anyboby starts mixing the two then management from both sides will have a field day.
:ok:

[Capt Kremin]

Rabbitwear=Ramboflyer.

Why are you EK pilots trying to masquerade as QF people? Bored in the sandpit are we?:suspect:

[Gingerbread]

According to Robert Gottliebsen at Business Spectator, and Etihad Airways CEO James Hogan, there is little or no truth in Rambo's claim:...they are different companies and if anyboby starts mixing the two then management from both sides will have a field day.

Quite the opposite it seems.RG: So, those legacy carriers that don’t change their work practices are likely to go out of business?JH: Well, I think you’ve seen that recently what’s happening in Europe, especially with British Airways. British Airways has been very open in saying they need to reshape their work practices and they need to look at a solution where they can work with other carriers, because I guess one would say the greatest example of a legacy carrier tackling this issue has been KLM and Air France, where they’ve been able to integrate and share those support services and wind down what they don’t need.

And that was before the tie up with Delta & Northwest.

IMHO, the future is Intergration - not Segmentation. :ok:

[caneworm]

Kremin,
I think you're right about rabbit & rambo and by the tone of their posts, they are most likely the same person. I guess they're just mischief making to take their minds off their own T&C's being p1ssed up against the wall by the camel jocks. Misery loves company...

Teresa,
Agree with you about the master plan, quite deliciously (with apologies to Bruce McAveny) machiavellian really. It never made sense to me to have 320's & 787's in a LCC operation, I've always thought 320's & 330's was a better mix, maybe this is the start. Also heard that their project team had a 787 "wake party" last week, now I'm starting to believe my own rumours! :hmm:

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

The B787 was ordered by the QF group for many reasons - but one important one was the delivery timetable promised by Boeing. It was going to be ready several years before the A350.

Now that the B787 is going to be further delayed by 6 to 12 months (there was a Seattle newspaper article recently which detailed some of the technical issues), the difference in delivery times will be so much shorter.

So the B787 still makes sense for mainline, while the A350 would integrate into the JQ fleet so much better. And BB did tell some techies recently that he was in talks with Airbus for a substantial order. He just didn't say what types...

[Nuthinondaclock]

View their previous posts. Both obviously ex-EK now with JQ.

NEITHER WITH QF.

[QFinsider]

Buchanan another tool. Rather naughty chap on a Qf flight if i remember! Boston consulting group with a sufficient knowledge of aviation to fit on the back of a postage stamp...

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

QFinsider,

Not that I'm a supporter of BB, or Executive managers generally, but let's face it, their lot aren't the only ones who qualify as tools - especially if misbehaving on a QF flight is the major qualifying factor; I seem to recall a particularly senior QF captain behaving like a major one on a QF flight southbound from SIN. Something to do with (a) too much Champers pre-departure, and (b) making a demand (which was duly refused) to see the tech log in-flight. (c) was going to be very nasty indeed, until a moment of clarity during his Champered blurr convinced him that a retreat was in everyone's best interest.

Especially his.

At least BB married the one he was misbehaving with.

[newsensation]

The Townsville refueler's cousin recons 90 pilots to be made redundant :confused:

[breakfastburrito]

newsensation, seeing as you where at the AIPA meeting yesterday, please give us a précis.

[metrosmoker]

6 months notice for redundancey. Maybe Qanats have hung in as long as they see viable. By giving notice now, from a business point of view, they are saying if things don't turn around after the busy holiday season, they will lay some pilots off. Kind of makes sense. As far as guys going to Jetstar, don't see how viable that would be either.
Reason is, they would have to be endorsed(if not already), inducted trained and checked to line. All of which could take a few months.
What happens, in 12 months time, when Qantas say, "we need you back". I'm sure there are plenty of guys who would run back in a heart beat without a second though of the cost or consequences of leaving Jetstar short staffed. These same guys that jump on here and whinge that Jetstar is so far beneath them.
I gaurantee if they are given positions at Jetstar, there will be a minimum R.O.S required.
My motivation, yes I currently have an application with Jetstar.

[breakfastburrito]

metrosmoker, if I follow your logic, J* should employ you while the "Qantas Group" guys & girls (who also had an application in, passed the psych, sim check, initial endorsement, cyclic's & possibly probation check) should be sacked & join the dole queue. Is this correct?

[Bo777]

That's right breakfastburrito ... So if I follow your logic, you think mainline QF SOs should be given preferential placements into other qantas groups (J*/qantaslink) without conducting a recent skill & psych, sim or interview, while guys & gals who work for the qantas group who jumped through all the hoops where sittiing on LOIs for months and then told they'll have to do it all over again? Is this correct?

[grrowler]

Well it seems fair enough, Qlink/ J* pilots can go to mainline without any of that nonsense... can't they?...

[Hugh Jarse]

Of course, grrowler!
.
.
.
.
.
.
NOT!
Every Qantas employee is created equal. Some, more equal than others. :yuk:

[breakfastburrito]

For the record I do not agree with anyone from the "Qantas Group" being sacked, and a new joiner being employed elsewhere in the "Qantas Group". I have never advocated such a policy, nor do I support it.
Personally I support a GOAL type arrangement that allows pilots to follow the work within the group.
I have not agreed with previous AIPA's administrations actions regarding regional & Impulse coverage & support.
If the roles were reversed, I would support a J* pilot being employed by QF, rather than being sacked.
I was most pleased that ex-AN (the supposed corporate enemy) pilots were employed by QF, all of them have been a pleasure to fly with.
Management are the ones pushing this agenda, not the pilots.

[4PW's]

Media campaign?

The story, if it ran, would last a day.

The continued employment of a group of pilots is not news.

Sorry, but you are laboring under mistaken ideas if you think otherwise.

[noip]

I must be under the mistaken belief that the Government / Labor party would give a rats about a major Australian company seemingly openly flouting their policies.

Something about "Transfer of Business" and ducks?

I think it would last more than a day in the media ....... a lot more than a day.


N

[metrosmoker]

Yes, That is what I am saying. If Qantas pilots go to Jetstar, then they should expect to be required to stay there for a reasonable period of time. What that time frame is, I don't. But why should another airline be dissadvantaged in 12 months time because of the current situation.

Most importantly, this is my view as is affects me at present.
Why should my plight be any less/more important than anyone else's. I doubt there is one guy in Qantas who would take a pay cut, demotion etc to save the job of another pilot in the company. Everyone will have an opinion dependig on how the situation will affect them. If you can't see that, than is it any wonder that pilot's have the industrial issues that we have.

[Transition Layer]

polesmoker

You said :
I doubt there is one guy in Qantas who would take a pay cut, demotion etc to save the job of another pilot in the company.

Are you referring to "the company" as in the Qantas "Group" or simply the Mainline operation?

Because pay cuts/less hours are exactly what is being considered right now by the pilot group to avoid retrenchments and a huge majority of pilots are willing to do so in order to save jobs.

You clearly have no idea...good luck with your Jetstar career :yuk:

[Keg]

I doubt there is one guy in Qantas who would take a pay cut, demotion etc to save the job of another pilot in the company.

Many QF drivers are working reduced value rosters- effectively taking a pay cut- to save the job of other pilots in the company. If it comes to it I'm willing to vary the EBA to reduce min guarantee hours below what it is currently paid- effectively taking a pay cut- in order to save the job of another pilot in the company. (Hours to go back to normal when conditions improve and other standard 'return to normal operations' clauses are an obvious inclusion).

It appears that metro is somewhat ignorant as to what QF drivers are willing to do in order to help out others. Sadly it's that type of ignorance that keeps the J* and QF crew at arms length. Many of us are mature enough to not succumb to those sorts of confirmation biases.

Ah, I see Transition Layer beat me to the punch.

[Crew rest.]

Keg is in love with the term "confirmation bias".

:)

[Karunch]

And while mainline pilots are facing retrenchment, Jet* pilots already on Lwop are being recalled. Does Joyce have any idea what his 'managers' are doing?

Thankfully I'm not a Qf shareholder, this sort of financial lunacy should have ended with the onset of the Gfc.

[Mstr Caution]

But why should another airline be dissadvantaged in 12 months time because of the current situation.



Metrosmoker -Mainliners have been asking this question for around 5 years or so!

[metrosmoker]

Thanks for the wishes guys. I appreciate it. Can you wish me luck with my Qantas application. Would prefer mainline when things turn around.
I was referring to mainline. Before you question my ignorance, I would check your own backyard. I know 3 guys in the company, none of which want reduced flying or pay. I will be the first to apologise for my ignorance if I am wrong.
Rip into me all you like guys. I am just stating a point of view.

After reading that SIA crew are taking a 10% pay cut, my opinion of pilots might need to change. My next post might be an apology.!

[CaptCloudbuster]

Metrosmoker saidBefore you question my ignorance, I would check your own backyard. I know 3 guys in the company, none of which want reduced flying or pay. I will be the first to apologise for my ignorance if I am wrong.

AIPA checked said backyard recently...see end of this post for results:ooh:

And

Most importantly, this is my view as is affects me at present.
Why should my plight be any less/more important than anyone else's.

United we stand...divided we fall.:ugh:

And


I doubt there is one guy in Qantas who would take a pay cut, demotion etc to save the job of another pilot in the company.


To quote a notorious QREWROOM regular... "INCORRECT!!!":eek:

I'm very proud to be an AIPA member presently. I'm sure even if you asked the entire Mainline Pilot body no one WANTS reduced flying or pay however as proved by the following the vast majority are prepared to look out for each other. You might take a lesson from this Metrosmoker...


This from AIPA insights 29th July 2009:- President Jackson said

As you know, AIPA recently distributed a quick survey to gauge the thoughts and preferences of Qantas mainline members, and I was pleased to see a very healthy 82% of you responded. Other indications are that 93% of those surveyed thought it was positive that AIPA was working cooperatively with the Company to address the redundancy problem. What was also pleasing to hear was that 81% of the Captains and First Officers surveyed were willing to have a “collective” attitude to potential redundancies. AIPA will use this survey as guidance as we address the current issues affecting many of our members.:D

[breakfastburrito]

metrosmoker, thanks for you candid response. Perhaps the reason you believe that others won't give up a single cent to help others, is because you personally would not in similar circumstances.

I have observed many with obvious ambition & concern for others, daring to reach for the stars. Some have had stellar careers, some ended up broke,bitter & alone in a one bedroom flat.

Good luck with your career.

[meguro]

Just out of curiousity, why don't pilots' of VB and Qantas group consider working abroad?
I'm in the ANA group and they will continue recruiting thoughout the rest of the year. There are jobs on everything from Dash 8 400's, 737 to B767, pax and freight.
Why would you bother being QF'd or Godrey'd?

Best of luck to all.:ok:

[RYAN TCAD]

...yeh i recall the welcome to QFLink blurb that one of the QF managers raved on about which was - ..."and we have already created an internal pathway between QFLink to QF for you guys to take advantage of. We have listened to the pilots' suggestions and implemented this"... blah blah blah.

Yeh right. TOSSER!

[OneDotLow]

For those who want to know ... due to numerous factors, at this stage QF pilot redundancies are no longer on the cards in the short term.

A welcome relief to those in the firing line, im sure. Also a pretty big thumbs up to all involved in taking a collective hit to save the jobs of those junior to them. :ok:

[Keg]

Interesting that this thread gets resurrected today. If things don't get worse we may have avoided anyone getting retrenched. A great outcome for our junior crew.

Now, if only we can do something about moving between the different parts of the group.

[GADRIVR]

Interesting....Mainline actually thinking about others apart from themselves.
Will wonders ever cease??!!
Should've happened years ago. Why the change in attitude guys?

[Bo777]

Keg
Now, if only we can do something about moving between the different parts of the group.
If only ... Rudd's new (un) Fair Work Act under the transfer of business crushes that idea.:sad:

[Keg]

Should've happened years ago. Why the change in attitude guys?

No change in attitude from some QF guys. It's been the same stance ever since I kicked off on PPRUNE.....a decade ago now.

[MrWooby]

There seems to be a lot of agro about the senior members of AIPA. A perceived attitude of only caring about themselves. Many of the younger members are very keen to change the Qantas contract, to sell of our conditions to secure flying. I find the attitude of "I must get that airline command asap and at any cost" appalling, and it has been to the detriment of our profession. Airline managers prey upon that, thus the growth of Jetstar, Virgin, Jetconnect etc. It's indicative of the current youth culture of "i want it all and I want it now". If it was up to the junior members of AIPA, we would have voted on and lost the payrise due on Aug 15th to save jobs. Instead, AIPA took its time, and achieved a good outcome without a reduction in pay rate. Maybe its time to respect the experience and knowledge of those who have been in the industry longer and have seen it all before and let them do the job of running AIPA.

[Mstr Caution]

Mr Wooby, the shock will come for the "i want it all and I want it now" generation when & if the pilot group forms a group opportunity list.

[kellykelpie]

I don't think aiming to get a command in around 10 years is "I want it all and I want it now". Jetstar has sucked up all the QF expansion. What is command running at in Qantas now? 15 years if you are lucky? It comes back to the 'poverty of expectation' that exists in mainline for promotion.

Seniority at 2400 - gaining 30 numbers a year in the midlevels, going backwards in the postcodes. I want it all now? You can't be refering to junior Qantas pilots surely. :confused: