Another newby thread... [Archive]

7engineapproach

14th Jul 2009, 03:17

PPRuNers,
Only discovered this forum a few days ago, so if I say something wrong let me know.

At the moment, I'm half way through Year 10, and for the first time actually considering what I want to do with my life. I'm not a long time Aviation freak (didnt get my PPL at age 8, haven't been hell bent on being a pilot since I came out of the womb), however I have a passion for most things that move (working on a '75 Torana for any car geeks out there), and being a pilot seems to be a somewhat better career option than being a bus driver (only slightly though). I have no flying experience whatsoever and am extremely naive to the workings of the industry, for all I knew you walked into Qantas at the end of Year 12 and instantly got a job. Anyway, now that I have a slightly improved knowledge of becoming a pilot, I have a few questions. The more you read, the more questions you have!
I live in Adelaide, so all my local flying schools are at Parafield. From what I've read on these forums the best option is Flight Training Adelaide (yes?, I'll go for a TIF at some stage). Also, I've been pointed towards the UniSA course by my school, and without getting into a war over the merits of an aviation degree, is the training they offer up to a satisfactory standard? Lastly, do airlines (major and regional) prefer to recruit former instructors or charter guys? The dream is to have my feet up in the captain's seat of an A380, so I'd like to know. I know some of the UniSA grads go on to be instructors and I think I'd like instructing :) Although racing through the Kimberley in a 210 doesn't sound too bad either :E

Of course, none of this applies if I could score a QF cadetship :ok:

Cheers.

The Green Goblin

14th Jul 2009, 03:45

PM Plank Bender, he seems pretty savvy when it comes to how a pilot should be trained and what skills they should have as an ATPL. :cool:

A couple of 1000 hours in your flight sim at home should do the trick, you'll be able to walk straight into a pilot shop, don a set of Raybans (Serengettis if you appreciate finer things) dust off your flight suit and helmet then skip on over to a job with Qantas.

The money isn't that great, expect a 300,000 starting wage, but the general team work and working environment sure makes up for it, in fact the same can be said for any company Australia wide.

Once you've been there a couple of years you'll have a grab at the left seat but it really depends on merit, being a company man really helps with career advancement so make sure you do everything as laid out in your OPs manual.

Most of all the comradery between Pilots in the industry is second to none. You always know someone has your back so life is relatively stress free. Just sit back, do your job and watch the money role in!

Yee haa

D-J

14th Jul 2009, 03:52

first thing.. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!! :}

Well let me put that into context, simply unless you have / develop a love of flying in this day & age it's not the most attractive career out there. It's a very long haul to get into that captains seat, many years of hard slog as either a instructor, a charter driver out the back of butt f$%^ or for a few many years as a first officer (keeping in mind some cadet schemes may not get you into the left seat with the company offering the scheme as you cant get the command time required)

Sorry to sound negative but it's an industry in which you'll have to put a lot into before you get anything out, which maybe hard for someone who just aspires to be a jet captain. Having said that it can be a great adventure

I did most of my training a Parafield with BAE flight training (now called flight training Adelaide) a few years ago, not a bad operation lots of aircraft & all maintained in house so it's pretty rare for aircraft to be unavailable.

I would recommend having a chat to both Air South & Forsyth Aviation & maybe do a TIF with any school that you like the sound of as it's all logable & you get to see different instructor methods from the get go & can decide which one suits you best

increasedescent

14th Jul 2009, 03:55

Check your PM's :ok:

D-J

14th Jul 2009, 03:55

A couple of 1000 hours in your flight sim at home should do the trick, you'll be able to walk straight into a pilot shop, don a set of Raybans (Serengettis if you appreciate finer things) dust off your flight suit and helmet then skip on over to a job with Qantas.

The money isn't that great, expect a 300,000 starting wage, but the general team work and working environment sure makes up for it, in fact the same can be said for any company Australia wide.

Once you've been there a couple of years you'll have a grab at the left seat but it really depends on merit, being a company man really helps with career advancement so make sure you do everything as laid out in your OPs manual.

Most of all the comradery between Pilots in the industry is second to none. You always know someone has your back so life is relatively stress free. Just sit back, do your job and watch the money role in!

Yee haa

geeezzzzzzz giving away all the secrets in one post :ugh:

:}

The Green Goblin

14th Jul 2009, 04:17

Quote:
A couple of 1000 hours in your flight sim at home should do the trick, you'll be able to walk straight into a pilot shop, don a set of Raybans (Serengettis if you appreciate finer things) dust off your flight suit and helmet then skip on over to a job with Qantas.

The money isn't that great, expect a 300,000 starting wage, but the general team work and working environment sure makes up for it, in fact the same can be said for any company Australia wide.

Once you've been there a couple of years you'll have a grab at the left seat but it really depends on merit, being a company man really helps with career advancement so make sure you do everything as laid out in your OPs manual.

Most of all the comradery between Pilots in the industry is second to none. You always know someone has your back so life is relatively stress free. Just sit back, do your job and watch the money role in!

Yee haa

geeezzzzzzz giving away all the secrets in one post

Did I also mention job security?

Being an aviator means you will never have to worry about money again, so take out that second mortgage and buy a boat, hell why not a new Audi to spice things up a little, may as well throw in some jet skis for the kids too to keep the little tackers happy. Pity about the ex wife though, but all those trolley dolleys sure were worth it!

There will always be champagne and caviar on your table :}

7engineapproach

14th Jul 2009, 04:22

Sorry to sound negative but it's an industry in which you'll have to put a lot into before you get anything out, which maybe hard for someone who just aspires to be a jet captain.

I do realise this, and not only from reading these forums. That said, it's just a dream, I could end up being an accountant or something. Since I don't have any experience with aviation, my understanding of whats out there is influenced by what I have seen so far in my day-to-day life, and you don't see many bush pilots (or flight instructors for that matter) in the newspaper or in career guides etc.

do a TIF with any school that you like the sound of as it's all logable & you get to see different instructor methods from the get go & can decide which one suits you best

As soon as I stop spending the little money I have :}.

Green Goblin, It's just a dream and it sounds a lot easier now that I have read your plan:rolleyes:

Wally Mk2

14th Jul 2009, 05:12

"7Eng" many years ago there where kids (trust me at 15 yr still a kid......lucky bugga!)just like you lined up against every fence line that surrounded an airport here in Oz just dreaming, drooling in fact to be a pilot. (I was one of them) At the time with a little luck (having some money behind you by way of family or plain plane mad!) you had a good chance of getting to the top after many years of hard work & would be there for life enjoying every minute of it. An airline pilot had a God like status once, where amongst the most respected people on the planet, these days? well the pages here attest to that not being the case anymore by way of lousy T&C's & one of the most unstable industries ever to evolve in this uncertain climate of ours.
If you really must fly then nobody in here should stop you from trying. BUT there are options if flying is just a passion for you.There are many other industries that have better job security and pay a hell of a lot more almost from day one after trained up. Get well placed within another role & fly for fun, privately, that way you can have yr cake & eat it to. Flying for a living can at times take the fun out of it.
Take a look at the amount of up & coming young pilots now whom walk off the street & want to fly for a living who are Caucasian. Whom want to be an airline pilot. They are getting fewer & fewer these days and there is a major underlying reason for that and that being flying for a living in an airline is no longer glamorous or worth while after a difficult and long road.

There's nothing wrong with dreaming ( I dreamed and got where I wanted considering my education level) so get yr private license & make part of that dream come true, the cost doing so with regards to what you will earn over yr entire working life is little, it's from that point on you can make an informed decision yourself.

To fly is one of the most rewarding & enjoyable experiences known to mankind, (from here on in at 15 you won't think clearly as girls cloud the mind:E) so why taint it with a "I have to go flying today" because it's no longer an enjoyable pleasure if you "have" too fly!:).

cheers & good luck:ok:

Wmk2:)

john_tullamarine

14th Jul 2009, 05:30

UniSA

Can't speak to aviation degrees but I did one of their flight test related subjects a couple of years ago for interest.

If that experience is typical of the way they approach generalist aviation degrees, then you won't be doing a pushover course by any stretch of the imagination. I was reasonably impressed by the way they went about the work.

mcgrath50

14th Jul 2009, 05:36

7Eng,

Listen to what the crusty old :oh: have to say, they have been there done that and know what they are talking about, face up to it and (if you have the passion) you should think who cares.

Try and find some people who are pilots to talk to, one thing I have found is almost everyone knows a pilot when they mention that ask if you can be introduced and then quiz the hell out of them about their life, what they think, advice, how they got into it etc. etc.

It serves two purposes, firstly you learn if the industry is for you, secondly, it gives you an idea on career paths and lifestyles you could be experiencing.

Take a couple TIFs, maybe next time you go on your family holiday take a senic flight. Get to know what light aircraft are like, you will be spending hundreds of hours in them even if you are lucky(?) enough to be fast tracked through a cadetship.

Go out to the airport spotting etc. etc. etc. try and immerse yourself in aviation, if you have the passion this won't be hard - you probably are half way there already.

If you do and the passion is still there, pick the school you like the most and start your training. Go solo just after your 16, try and get your PPL done before the HSC really kicks off or if you miss that (like I have) wait till the HSC is over then finish off your PPL before the uni year starts.

By now you should know if you want to keep doing this for a living or if it's just a nice hobby. Both are awesome life choices.

The other piece of advice I can give you is apply for everything (ADFA/RAAF in year 11 to be in the running for a shiny laptop, QF/Unis Junly/July) you would even consider going to. Keep your options open, you never know what may happen - such as a financial crisis :rolleyes:

Good luck!

sms777

14th Jul 2009, 05:48

Did you say you own a 75 Torana?
Take my advice, spruce it up with a set of flares, big set of wheels, stripes and sell it as an A9X replica.
You will make more money than you would in the next 10 years of your aviation career. ;)

ZappBrannigan

14th Jul 2009, 05:50

My humble advice is (assuming this isn't a pisstake, there seems to be a few of those floating around lately) - if you're not 100% sure about what you want to do, and flying sounds fairly cool, but you're not hugely passionate about it - go and do a TIF and have a fly around. If by this stage - or your first proper lesson or two - you haven't been "bitten", I'd probably question whether I was motivated enough to drop the large amount of money, time and effort required to get ATPL qualified - also remembering you'll get little reward other than getting paid to fly (makes it all worthwhile for some, but not all) for the first few years at least.

This isn't designed to put you off - but there are enough youngsters out there who WERE ridiculously passionate when they began, but have realised for most it's not plain sailing into the left seat of a jet, everything became a little too hard, and now they've either quit at some mid-to-late stage of training, or are sitting in the dead-end realms of GA as their attitude and "airline-entitlement" mindset won't allow them to progress.

You're crazy if you don't get up there at least once though.

7engineapproach

14th Jul 2009, 06:26

go and do a TIF and have a fly around. If by this stage - or your first proper lesson or two - you haven't been "bitten", I'd probably question whether I was motivated enough to drop the large amount of money, time and effort required to get ATPL qualified - also remembering you'll get little reward other than getting paid to fly (makes it all worthwhile for some, but not all) for the first few years at least.

I think the above covers what mcgrath and wally were saying as well. I understand how committed you have to be to get to the top in this line of work, and probably didn't explain myself as well as I could have in my first post. I'll get into a plane as soon as time and money allow, and come back for more advice when I catch 'the bug'!

Take my advice, spruce it up with a set of flares, big set of wheels, stripes and sell it as an A9X replica.
You will make more money than you would in the next 10 years of your aviation career. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Hahahaha so true.
But its my first car, it's not going anywhere.

tmpffisch

14th Jul 2009, 07:53

Have you thought of becoming an aircraft engineer instead, and perhaps flying privately?

Mcambo

14th Jul 2009, 09:02

Be careful what you wish for.........

When I was growing up i wanted to be a pilot. At that stage and living in a country town it wasn't so easy. The main option was the RAAF. I used to have model planes hanging from my bedroom roof, I collected the Illustrated encyclopedia of aircraft and when it finally came time, i sat the RAAF entrance exam, but unfortunately I didn't get in.

I am now an Accountant working as a Financial controller for a flight training school. Quite often I look out the window and see all the planes going past wishing it was me flying them. I'm now in the fortunate position though of doing my PPL. Where I work, we have some of the best young pilots around so i have my choice of really good instructors.

Dont ever do something that you think could be good. You need ot do something that you are absolutely passionate about. If they had the degree course when I was doing University then I would have done htat in a heart beat.

The fact that there is now FEE Help and HECS for the theory and flying component has made the degree course a lot more accessible. Even though you end up with htis debt, dont forget that oyu dont start paying it back until you start earning a certain income threshold and you may not achieve that level for quite a few years after finishing the degree.

Agaion, do something you are absolutely passsionate about. You dont want to regret it later in life.

Tankengine

14th Jul 2009, 09:26

2 tips before getting too serious.

Go to a Designated Medical Exaniner [DAME] and get a full class one medical done. [saves possible dissapointment later.]

The other is to go out to Gawler or Stonefield and do some gliding lessons!:ok:

You can go solo at 15 and they training is very worthwhile.:)

PyroTek

14th Jul 2009, 12:33

I used to have model planes hanging from my bedroom roof, I collected the Illustrated encyclopedia of aircraft

I have planes hanging from my bedroom ceiling too! Half of which I glued together from little kits., and aircraft posters all over my walls.:ok:
And I also buy aviation books at first glance in the bookshops!

Worrals in the wilds

14th Jul 2009, 12:48

7 engine,
Just my two cents.
There are many worthwhile jobs/careers in aviation that are not flying jobs. Airlines, ground handlers and airports employ many people, often with better pay and more secure employment conditions that don't actually fly but are still an integral part of the Flying Circus.

As several people have said, if you're keen on aviation you can still be gainfully employed around aircraft without flying them. If you're not actively involved in the industry you may not have considered being a LAME, running a ground handling company, working in airline operations, being a terminal manager and many other postions that keep the aircraft in the air. There is an old RAAF saying that 90% of the RAAF keep 10% in the air, and being part of the 90% is still great fun and often more secure, and better paying, than being in the 10%.

If you have your heart set on being a pilot then don't let me talk you out of it, but working in aviation can also mean being one of the Chairbourne Division (WE Johns) that helps it all happen and this can be (IMHO) just as much fun.

For all that, very few people make a million out of aviation. Ground based or air based, you have to be passionate about it, otherwise you're better off somewhere else.

Peter Fanelli

14th Jul 2009, 13:02

I have planes hanging from my bedroom ceiling too! Half of which I glued together from little kits., and aircraft posters all over my walls.

You sicko!
I think you're keeping bad company these days.

Where's your Farrah Fawcett poster?

Van Gough

15th Jul 2009, 02:45

Mcambo

15th Jul 2009, 02:55

If I had my time again, I would have got an accounting degree (or something similar)...something which is not really the most exciting of jobs but has a good wage and has job security...and just got a ppl and flew for fun on the weekends.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Unfortunately there isn't a great deal more job security in being an accountant than most other industries.

When times are good and companies are purchasing other companies and there are mergers, etc the premise of doing a lot of these deals is that you can rationalise costs. The first areas targetted for staff reductions are therefroe finance and administration.

Then when things get tough and companies need to reduce staff they first look at the non-revenue producing employees and cull them.

So, unfortunately as a finance person you can never be 100% certain that you will have a job tomorrow.

I think you should do what you love, even if the pay isn't as flash, as long as oyu can survive on it, then as long as you are happy.

M14_P

15th Jul 2009, 04:57

Van gough,
Yeh that is my target. I have my own business (non aviation related) and own a Pitts Special. I fly one commercially too, regularly fly other types like Tiger Moth and Yak 52 - but flying has always been a part time thing for me, but fulltime passion from a young age.
Never rule anything out but this is the life! :)

The Green Goblin

15th Jul 2009, 10:28

I think you should do what you love, even if the pay isn't as flash, as long as oyu can survive on it, then as long as you are happy.

There is only so long you can survive driving 20 year old commodore watching the Aboriginal family over the road pull up in a brand new landcruiser every year.

Drinking beer is great, but eventually the Mrs wants champagne, and there aint enough champagne up there for all of us :{

I feel for the single engine drivers right now, take a good look at that 210, cause it'll be home for at least the next 3 years :cool:

tinpis

15th Jul 2009, 10:45

I have my own business and drive a Honda Civic.

PlankBlender

15th Jul 2009, 10:55

Goblin, what about that racist slur? Care to explain yourselves, or are you just another xenophobic nitwit?

D-J

15th Jul 2009, 11:06

Goblin, what about that racist slur? Care to explain yourselves, or are you just another xenophobic nitwit?

Doesn't sound racist, just a statement of the obvious.....

j3pipercub

15th Jul 2009, 11:07

:rolleyes: sigh:rolleyes:

D-J I think if you read post #2 you may get your reason behind the above comment...not rolling eyes at you btw

j3

PlankBlender

15th Jul 2009, 11:18

No j3, I don't respond to silly personal affronts, but racism gets my back up every time. As far as I'm concerned, racist f:mad:wits have no raison d'etre and should be outcast any way possible. We live in a global world, especially in aviation, and the Australians are know around the world as one of the worst societies when it comes to dealing with the original inhabitants of the land they took, so comments like that and the still pervasive bogan racism in society is a sh!t stain this society needs to work hard to get rid of fast!

D-J, the specific singling out of Aboriginals as the object of envy makes it a racist comment by default. Any issues understanding that, look up the definition of racism:ugh:

The Green Goblin

15th Jul 2009, 11:18

Goblin, what about that racist slur? Care to explain yourselves, or are you just another xenophobic nitwit?

Racist slur

WE :p

Xenophobic

You always do seem to add 1 + 1 and get 3 don't you Planky :D

Someone sure did whack a 2 x 4 over that head of yours at some stage :}

j3pipercub

15th Jul 2009, 11:20

:rolleyes:sigh:rolleyes:

j3

maverick22

15th Jul 2009, 11:25

Better turn the fasten seat belt sign on, plankbender is getting fired up again:}

The Green Goblin

15th Jul 2009, 11:53

I don't respond to silly personal affronts

You looked pretty fired up the other day when you and your church buddies got booted from the Tiger flight from Melbourne back to the Goldy :ok:

should be outcast any way possible.

I used to be called a white c&#nt on a daily basis as a way of being addressed, so by your rational there wouldn't be too many folk left in northern Australia if they were all outcast :p

Australians are know around the world as one of the worst societies when it comes to dealing with the original inhabitants of the land they took

Geez if free transport, cheap/free housing healthcare and vehicles is being hard done by, i'd love to see what being treated well is like!

Sign me up

PlankBlender

15th Jul 2009, 12:10

You looked pretty fired up the other day when you and your church buddies got booted from the Tiger flight from Melbourne back to the Goldy

No idea what you're on about, I have my own winged transport and haven't been on a commercial domestic flight in a fair while..

The rest of your post it just a bad example of that ill-informed bogan racism I was talking about :=

mcgrath50

15th Jul 2009, 13:22

Do you guys mind taking this somewhere else? This was a helpful thread for the guy until you two started.

Lesson number two in aviation mate, although many pilots are top blokes who are humble enough to help a new guy get into this great industry, there is always a couple who will take any opportunity to prove how big their dicks are :ugh:

j3pipercub

15th Jul 2009, 13:38

oh dear...another one:rolleyes:

j3

j3pipercub

15th Jul 2009, 13:50

7 Eng App.

There has been a great deal of excellent, well rounded advice given to you on this thread (mainly page 1 :}). I hope that you are able to take it all on board and digest it slowly and thoughfully. I wish you the best of luck in your search for your vocation and hope that when you do make your choice, it is devoid of external pressure and is something that will allow you to live a comfortable, fulfilled life.

If you have questions in regards to flying (what to expect, etc) and the first few years of GA (from my humlbe experinces), I am more than willing to answer them, just drop me a PM

j3

PlankBlender

15th Jul 2009, 18:59

mcgrath50, I hear you, however I'd say this thread is still helpful for a newbie as it gives some insight into the characters he or she is likely to encounter in this industry.

7's first boss may be one of those characters who shine here and in the real world by showing off their limited world view and education, often expressed as racism and a general inability to entertain others' points of view, or he could be a humble, worldly-wise aviator.

There are ample examples of either type out there; if someone treats junior pilots like sh!t, will pull rank at the first sign of something not going his/her way or brown-nose superiors or customers excessively, and is generally the dodgy dealer type who likes to cut corners and thinks he/she knows it all, chances are you're dealing with the type that's dangerous as an entrepreneur or pilot in this industry. They're usually the louder, more abrasive type, and thus easy to spot and avoid. :ok:

The second type may be harder to make out as they normally don't see the need to impose their view of the world on others unless asked.. when approached however, you may experience generosity, humbleness, and other admirable traits.

A person's choice on who to associate with and who to stay well clear of starts early as we all know, there's been an example of the former and the latter persona in pretty much any training school I've seen. If the dimwit is the CFI, RUN! If it's just one of the instructors, well, just don't fly with him or her or engage in discussions beyond the quality of beer..

PlankBlender

15th Jul 2009, 23:07

Geez, someone has an axe to grind, I wonder how I earned the priviledge? :}

Suffice to say we agree to disagree, very well then, pass a stubbie :hmm:

And yes, I passed Aerodynamics on the first go (85%), and yesterday also Meteorology (100%, I kid you not, reading Weather Flying, the BoM Aviation Manual of Met and Bob Tait paid off!!). Nav to go and I'm done, at least with the fixed wing stuff :ok:

Ah yes, and Stephen is not my name, sorry to disappoint you. :}

D-J

16th Jul 2009, 01:20

geee where's that Micheal Jackson gif when you need it :E

tmpffisch

16th Jul 2009, 01:45

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/MichealJacksonPopcorn.gif

There ya go.

VH-XXX

16th Jul 2009, 02:06

Planky you'd better get yourself a new username, you're busted!

I don't have to worry, everyone knows me that I want to know me.

PlankBlender

16th Jul 2009, 08:28

Hmm, judging from the PM's I'm getting there are a fair few people here who know who you are, and you probably wouldn't like what they have to say. :p

Don't really mind if people can find out who I am, in this day and age it's rather hard to conceal one's identity anyway if you're active in business and society, and I stand by what I write and do here and elsewhere.. keep it coming, boys, beats the entertainment value of telly any night and sometimes we even learn a thing or two ;)

j3pipercub

16th Jul 2009, 08:30

Well then de-identify them and forward them on, more than happy to receive them! Please feel free, I would welcome them...

Anyway, my handle is quite a thin veil of disguise, over 20 people probably know who I am...

j3

The Green Goblin

16th Jul 2009, 10:44

I just can't wait for you Stephan to apply for your first aviation job, whats the bet your Arrow is offered in the deal!

I reckon after a few bumps and bruises and 12 or so months of working you will be less gung hoe and a little more humble in your opinions offered on these boards.

Or you'll change your username and continue to recite utter nonsense for those silly enough to listen, and those such as myself, j3 and others who enjoy being reminded of our own short comings when we were at your stage of experience :p (And those more experienced than us laughing at our replies to you who are reminded of their lack of empathy at our stage in their flying :E)

Towering Q

17th Jul 2009, 03:24

Nice work J3, I know a few Private Investigation outfits that would take you on in a heartbeat.

PlankBender...I agree with your "ill-informed bogan racism" claim, but that's a whole new topic.

Di_Vosh

17th Jul 2009, 04:55

Another D&G thread hijacked!

7engapp (nice handle, btw :ok:) asks what should be a fairly straightforward question, and we have three or four hotheads taking over his thread!

Why? Because they had a disagreement one or two threads ago about a forced landing and cant let go.

J3, TGG and PB, why don't you guys settle this somewhere else? :ugh:

7engapp, there IS some good advice on this thread (Probably the best comes from Wally and Mcgrath, IMHO).

Just be very careful when taking advice from some of the chest-thumpers here on Prune (an anonymous website). In case you've not seen it, the below message is on the bottom of the prune pages:

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

DIVOSH!