RAF Training Command Losses 1970s

[johnfairr]

Gentlemen (and Ladies, if you know your stuff!)

Not being a Google nerd, I have had bother in locating any information about RAF Training Command accidents/losses. I remember a thread way back that listed all the aircraft lost from the late 40s onwards, and in any one year of which the total far exceeded the current strength of the RAF!!

Would someone kindly put me out of my misery and direct me towards the relevant sites?

Many thanks,

JF

[henry crun]

john: Were either of these two threads the ones you were thinking of ? http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/300245-meteor-accidents-1953-a.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/70987-meteor-accident-statistics.html

[mephisto88]

John Check yr pm's for a link, maybe a little more detailed than you need.
Hope this helps.
Brgds

[johnfairr]

Thanks, chums. I'm really looking for the report of a fatal crash of a JP in either 1970 or 1971, the u/t pilot being the brother of a guy to whom I was best man later. This was just before I joined the RAF and I never got to the bottom of it, basically because I didn't want to seem ghoulish and ask him how his brother had speared in. The surname was Woolmer. I'm pretty sure it was 1971, now I come to think about it.

[henry crun]

john, Broken Wings only shows one JP accident in 1971 which resulted in a fatal.

2.3.71: JP T3: XW300: 2nm ESE of Selby, Yorks: Collided with FAA sea Prince WP312and crashed. (2 + 1 RN).

In 1970 there was also only on JP fatal accident.

30.4.70: JP T4: XP566: RAFC: 2nm NW of Cranwell: Flew into the ground during night approach: ( 1 )

[johnfairr]

Henry,

Many thanks for your diligent searching, I can't seem to find the book you're referring to, but I suppose it could have been very early in 1972, or alternatively a Chippie at BFTS in 71/72.

If you would be so kind as to check those out, I'd be most grateful. :ok:

[StartLimiting]

I was on the same course as Chris Woolmer - 36 course E Flt 3 Sqn 3 FTS RAF Leeming.

He died on 30 September 1969.

My memory is rather vague but I think that although he had just graduated to the JP4, due to a shortage of jets, he was detailed for a solo in a JP3.

He took off on the short runway which, if I am correct, was R/W30 (no longer in use) and could be a bit tricky and crashed in a field just off the end of the runway. As far as I understand Chris made an unsuccessful attempt to eject but was too late, too low.
Some of us saw the crash from the ops room.

I can't remember the outcome of the BoI but if my description is wrong, I apologise unreservedly.

I have a photo of the crashed aircraft which was fleet number 6 - XN575, I had last flown this aircraft on 24 Sep.

We were all very upset at the time as Chris was a popular guy and that evening we went to the pub at Ainderby Steeple and got absolutely plastered.

I understand that his name is included on the Armed Forces Memorial in Staffordshire and on the Rolls of Honour that are kept on public display in the Church of St Clement Danes in London.

RiP

[johnfairr]

StartLimiting,

Thank you very much indeed for that. I felt sure that it was in the 70s, as I remember having a beer with him and his brother way after I'd left school in July 69. I remember distinctly Chris talking about "famous last words" of students prior to impending crashes. As you say, he was a terrific chap, and a sad loss.

He was related (a cousin, I think) to Bob Woolmer, the cricketer.

I've been meaning to find out what actually happened, and I thank you for taking the time and trouble to post.

[henry crun]

john, I take it StartLimiting has answered your question, Broken Wings can add nothing to what he has detailed.

FYI: Broken Wings details all major accidents 1945-1999.
Broken Wings: Post War R.A.F. Accidents: Amazon.co.uk: James J. Halley: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Broken-Wings-R-F-Accidents/dp/0851302904/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1247566577&sr=1-2)

[johnfairr]

Henry

Many thanks, email confirmation of my order from Amazon has just arrived! :ok:

[Aileron Drag]

Just come across this thread. I was on the same course as Chris, and had shared a car-ride from London back to RAF Leeming in the weeks before his accident. My memory is of listening to My Cherie Amour in the car by Stevie Wonder. Chris really liked that song! Great guy. I seem to remember he had worked for a time in a bank? Can still see his grinning face. Happy days.

[Legionaire]

I was a rigger on "the line" the night the accident happened. I had just
turned 18 and had only been in the mob for 6mths. It was a very sad and traumatic night. As I recall the fleet number of the a/c was 81 and was silver and dayglow. Some things stay with us for ever.

Anyone else there '70 to '73?

[Old-Duffer]

............. from 1954 to Aug 2009 are in a book called: "Category Five" - 2600 crashes, 2000 name Casualty Roll.

For 1950 to 1953 - try "Last Take-Off", 1946 to 1949 - it's "Final landings" and for VE-Day to end-1945 the tome is called "The Price Of Peace".

The entries comprise a detail of the aircraft and a short summary of the circumstances and the names of the casualties.

Try Amazon

[june b mitchell]

My name is June,Hello, I was engaged to Chris when he went into the RAF. I am interested to hear from you as he has always been on my mind, he was such a special guy. It all happened so long ago.

My e mail is [email protected]

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards Mrs J B Mitchell.

[Danny42C]

johnfairr #1 and others

I was on control in the ATC Tower (800 yards away) at Leeming at the time of this accident (although, being in the Approach Room did not actually see it). As the (solo) pilot was killed instantly, the account which follows is based (essentially) on what eye-witnesses (chiefly the Runway Controller) saw , the rest has to be supposition. (I did not see the BoI Report).

There must have been a ferocious Westerly wind at the time, for the JPs to be blown off the main (16/34) 7500 ft runway, and so having to use the 4800 ft 13/31 (? - now closed) instead. There was a short extension on the outside of the taxiway (200 ft max at a guess) at the 31 end, but this extra length was not being used for take-off (although its use was made mandatory after the accident).

Nevertheless, from my own flying experience, I'm sure that this played absolutely no part, considering the strong headwind down the runway. Now the report I heard (which must have been from the Runway Control Corporal - and he was on the spot) ran like this:

He lined up and opened the throttle. The engine note was normal, but the aircraft appeared to be accelerating only slowly. This was on account of the headwind, of course, all previous JPs had done the same. I would guess that the airspeed was building normally, but of course the ground speed would appear to be increasing much more slowly, and this may have deceived him into thinking that the power was "down". (It's all "may" from now on - just my guess). And I don't know how many hours he had on the JP.

Well into the run he changed his mind and abandoned take-off. Local Control saw it and lifted the barrier for him to take if necessary. And then, unaccountedly, he changed his mind once more , opened the throttle and resumed the attempt to take off. Of course it was hopeless.

He got off, "wet-henned" over the barrier and up to (perhaps) 50 ft. Then it stalled, a wing (port, I think) dropped, he stall-turned and went straight in, nose first, into a small field just outside the boundary.

The Crash services were on the spot in no time, but it was no use. There was no fire, but the boy was dead. Another Controller and I went over later in the day to see if we could learn anything from the site. But it was clear; the whole cockpit section was destroyed: it was not survivable, he must have been killed instantly.

A pathetic second casualty; a cow lay dead only feet away. There was no sign of any injury, we concluded that the animal must have died of fright. And that's all I know.

MPN11, exMudmover and HughGw01 were at Leeming around that time, but I'm not sure about Sept. '69.

Danny42C

[june b mitchell]

Thank you so much. So sad. Does this mean that he should not have used that run way. I'm glad he died instantly and it was over quickly.

What a shame he did not abort.

Thank you for replying so quickly.

With very best regards

June Mitchell.

[june b mitchell]

Danny

Thank you so much for your quick reply. This has helped me a lot as I
now know that my calling off our engagement had nothing whatsoever to do with dear Chris's crash.

So very pleased to know that he would have died instantly and not been burnt.

If only he had aborted.

Once again thank you and take care.

Best wishes

June Mitchell.

[NutLoose]

June, you can send messages or emails to anyone in the thread by clicking on their names and it pulls up a menu to send from.

[BEagle]

I only did a little flying at RAF Leeming during refresher courses. All on the Jet Provost Mk5 or Mk5A.

All 6 runways were available; however, RW 13/31 was only used when a peculiar local met phenomenon existed. I think it was known as the 'Wensleydale jet'? Basically, when the wind was in a particular direction off the Dales, it would be funnelled into a strong surface wind more or less straight down this very short RW.

Compared to the JP4 or JP5, the JP3 wasn't exactly blessed with power; as Danny rightly says, in a strong headwind the acceleration along the RW would have seemed very slow although the actual speed through the air would have been quite normal.

Throttle response of the Viper engine was also pretty woeful, so if the throttle was closed and then re-opened, it would have taken some 9 (?) seconds for full thrust to be restored from idle.

The RW would have been suitable for a qualified Jet Provost pilot used to such conditions; however, whether it was sensible to authorise solo student flying in such conditions, I cannot say.

June, I hope that this thread has allowed you some closure after all these years.

[Danny42C]

June, (your quote):

"Does this mean that he should not have used that runway?" Certainly it does not mean that ! With the wind almost straight down it, there was ample length for a JP to get airborne: they had been doing so up till then without any difficulty.

"What a shame he did not abort". Quite so - but he had aborted ! The mystery was why he didn't stay down after deciding to do so. One explanation I heard offered was that, when he saw the barrier net raised in front of him, he didn't want to go into it when he could still (he thought) take off over it. But that makes no sense at all. The truth is that no one can enter his mind to explain his action.

A shame, as you say (and I join BEagle in his last remarks).

Danny

[spekesoftly]

Danny,

If I understand you correctly the stop-end barrier was down, and only raised when the Tower controller suspected an abort. My own recollection of Jet Provost operations at Linton and Manby (in the 1970s) was for the barrier to be up for both take-off and landing, and only lowered for aircraft unsuitable for barrier engagement. Perhaps there was a change in SOPs following this tragic accident?

When I read your figure of 4800ft for Runway 13/31 at Leeming, my initial reaction was that it compared favourably with 10/28 at Linton (4400ft), but an old copy of BINA actually gives 4200ft for the Leeming runway.

[xtp]

I was a QFI on 2 Sqn 3FTS when the accident happened. My (vague?) memory suggests that the main runway was under repair at the time, which is why we operated off 30 for some time, including a period of night flying which I remember well for being able to teach approaches with no approach lights or VASIs on really dark nights.

Re the accident, I also seem to recall that at the time it was suggested that, having been converted to the JP4, getting airborne too early off a short runway in a full-tip JP3 for a navex resulted in a semi-stalled take-off and subsequent departure.

[Danny42C]

spekesoftly * and xtp,

You may well have me on the ropes here ! (I plead Senile Dementia and 45 years is a long time).

As for the barrier, my recollection is that they left it down (the Mk.IIIs being [I was told] no balls of fire) on take-offs; Local watched the landings and whipped it up when it looked necessary. (xtp- ?) - and exMudmover, MPN11 and HughGw01 might come in on this to settle the question.

Runway direction ? 30 or 31 ? - and the length ? (I've no Flip Card). Thinking hard, and having a look through Wiki, I reckon: the wartime field would have had the standard issue - 2000 (16/34), 1600 (04/22) and 1400 (12/30) yds. By the time we came on the scene, the 2000 had been stretched to 2500, I'm not sure we were still using the 1600, and 12/30 would be 1400 yds. So spekesoftly, your 4200 ft is right. The puzzle is the extension - how much longer was that ?

All I recall is that having to backtrack to the end for takeoff was a nuisance on a busy AFS, so they didn't do it - but started to do so after this affair.

All in all, this illustrates perfectly what I told Chugalug many moons ago - I am absolutely not to be regarded as an authority on anything . Danny

PS: (Note *) We Liverpudlians seem to get in everywhere !

[BEagle]

Measuring it on Google Earth gives a length of 4200' including a 'starter extension' of around 600' extending south-eastwards from the old taxiway intersection as shown on a wartime photo in Action Stations 4.

[4Greens]

In another Service, nearly 50% of Scimitars built were lost in accidents. They never saw combat

[june b mitchell]

I have obtained a letter from Ministry of Defence, they have sent me a synopsis of BoI. which reads:


The main cause of accident was found by Board of Inquiry to be aircrew error in that the pilot has the nose to high on take off. Contributory causes were found to be:
1. The possibility that fatigue may have affected the pilot's judgement.
2. The pilot was a rather underconfident nervous student and therefore anxiety induced reaction to some external stimulus cannot be ruled out.
3. New instructors not being adequately briefed at the outset on their duties and responsibilities and properly supervised thereafter.
4. Full length of Runway 30 was not being used at Leeming.
5. Widespread disregard or ignorance of the instructions regarding the continuity of students' instrument flying training.


Chris was a VERY confident person else why would the RAF taken him to train as a pilot, why had he lost confidence, probably due to poor training
instructors, which the report points out. Why put on a short runway.
I'm extremely angry with the RAF. Chris has probably lost 60 years of living, and boy did he like living. Fatigue, why wasn't he encouraged to have early nights instead of getting together drinking. The RAF should be ashamed and not take lightly the lives of beautiful young lads like Chris.


However, I have had some lovely E mails about Chris, all saying what a great guy he was, and he was and I'm sure would have made a great pilot.


I shall end now. This site has offered me peace of mind, thank you to all who have responded.


Have a good New Year.


With regards


June Mitchell.


PS Chris is on the top of panel 152 of Armed Forces Memorial in Staffordshire.

[hoveratsix]

Does anyone know the identity of the student pilot killed along with Elwyn David Bell in JP XW300 of No1FTS, Linton-on-Ouse? It was in a mid air collision with the Church Fenton Sea Prince WP312 on 02 March 1971 piloted by Cdr David Dunbar-Dempsey RN....a really fine man. I think the stude may have had the first name Bruce.

[hoveratsix]

Now able to answer my own question: PO Bruce Blackett. I was on an International Air Cadet Exchange with him in the US of A in 1967.

[Madbob]

Hoveratsix


Sea Prince pilot was Cdr David Dunbar-Dempsey. He was flying solo.


JP T5 was being flown by Flt Lt Elwyn Bell (QFI) and Plt Off Bruce Blackett. Flt Lt Bell was ex 110 Sqn


Speculation was that the Sea Prince pilot's ability to look out was compromised by the design of its cockpit and by not having a second pilot/nav to assist with looking outside particularly to the right.


I have no further details and the mid-air could just as easily have occurred in IMC which would make the lookout point above irrelevant. Either way, a very sad (and not so rare) occurrence. RIP to all.


MB

[Bill1949]

Hoveratsix
Madbob

Was so glad to find this. Bruce was my closest mate. We'd known each other since the age of 7. We joined 6F (Romford) ATC together.
He was to be my best man (my 1st son's middle name is Bruce). His loss was quite a blow to me.

Apart from a recently found group photo (ATC) which includes him, the only other photo I have is of his RAF cap resting on his ensign-draped coffin at his cremation (newspaper photo). Do you know of any other photos of him - I'd really like to show my son the guy who's name he shares.

I've uploaded 3 relevant photos - but I don't use forums much so I Hope I've done this correctly.

[Stuart Masterton]

Bruce and I did our Flying Scholarships together at Carlisle in Sept 1968. We even did our cross country at the same time to Blackpool with the obligatory (against regulations) low circuit of Blackpool Tower.
We kept in touch until his accident.

[Bill1949]

Stuart. Many thanks for coming back on this. I remember Bruce talking about the cross-country (can't remember if it was during that excursion that he had the electrics failure that he told me about....).

[Stuart Masterton]

I don't remember an electrics failure but I do remember us taking off in Cessna 150s in to a 45 knot headwind. A very slow, lumbering climb out.
Good to hear from you.

[Bill1949]

Yeah, I imagine a 45kt headwind would be a bit of a struggle in that....

I feel that I remember the electrics failure as occurring in the Provost (cross-country - from Linton I guess) - no radio, & red flares firing up at some point to say 'don't land'(....?) but he had no choice really & couldn't tell them. That's as I remember it (but it was over 45 years ago....).