Fly MayBe - wot a shower

[jaycee46]

I recently had the pleasure of a rare experience - an almost on time arrival from FlyBe both ways EDI / JSY. I did use them quite a bit on business - walk on, no bags, until this. They were doing so well, until check in coming home.

I'll probably be shot at for this, but my reading of 20kg hold baggage and 10kg hand baggage, means that the ticket they sold me entitles me to take 30kg (subject to Health & Safety max single bag limit of 23, 25?kg) on the aircraft, and they have done their costings, fuel calculations and weight & balance calculations, based on that 30kg maximum. The aircraft is not really bothered whether it is in the hold or in the overhead locker.

Arrive at checkin @ JSY, my bag 21kg, and Mrs jaycee's bag 22.5kg, both of us with minimal carry on (less than 9kg total), therefore well under the 60kg we had paid FlyBe to carry. I was less than impressed when the totally uninterested 17ish year old check in clerk http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif said that I would have to pay excess baggage (about 25 quid) for the extra kilos in the hold bags, or move some of the stuff from them into the almost empty carry on bags. This took about 5 minutes, by which time the queue was nearly out the door - oh yes, I forgot, the one other open check in desk was acting out the same farce!

I took it up with the supervisor at the ticket desk, :ugh:who unsurprisingly was of little help, and showed no interest, stating that it was clearly explained on their website. (Booked the flights as part of a package, so never actually saw the website)

Am I the only one who thinks that this is a blatant money grabbing extortion of the travelling public, by FlyBe. You buy 30kg you should not be charged if you have less than that 30kg. Even FlyGlobespan include your carry on in your total allowance.

There is a further final insult! The carry on bags still fitted the cradle they use for the size check - just, and weighed under the 10kg - obviously, but when we got on the Q400, with its slimline overhead bins, it was a tight fit, and the flight attendant fully understood our feelings towards her employer, :mad: when she suggested that we should considered less carry on, and more in the hold!

[TightSlot]

I'll probably be shot at for this, but my reading of 20kg hold baggage and 10kg hand baggage, means that the ticket they sold me entitles me to take 30kg

With respect, my reading of it would be that you're entitled to 20kg of hold baggage and 10kg hand baggage. I'm sorry, because I know that this will not be what you want to hear. I know that a hypothetical argument exists to the contrary, but these days, for better or worse, airlines tend to stick to the letter of the contract (i.e ticket) that you have entered into.

I imagine that those regularly posting here who loathe all airlines will provide more support for you than I can. From my perspective, the error of assumption was yours - once again, with great respect.

[raffele]

To reiterate what TightSlot has said - whilst you are permitted to take 30kg total on the aircraft, if the rules for the airline say you can only take 20kg in the hold, then that's what you agreed to when you bought the ticket, and should be expected to be charged for more than that.

I sympathise with you but every airline does it differently - and you should know that budget airlines like Flybe are very strict with their baggage allowances!

[Avman]

With you all the way jaycee46. Total lack of COMMON SENSE (yes, I'm shouting at the top of my lungs)! What is even more astounding, with all due respect, is Tightslot's post.

P.S. I don't loathe airlines (well, except for Ryanair of course ;) ), but I do loathe airline check-in employees with zero COMMON SENSE.

[PAXboy]

jaycee46I'll probably be shot at for thisYes!!! You just got shot.

Some carriers allow you to share total allowance between Hold bags. Thus I might have 18 kgs and my companion 22 kgs and it would be fine, other carriers do NOT permit this and the small print tells you who they are.

However, Cabin and Hold baggage limits have been set separately for as long as I can remember and I have been paxing for 43.5 years.

[lexxity]

Check in clerk here. It's nothing to do with a lack of common sense and everything to do with the bollocking leading to a letter on the file, leading to eventual disciplinary, etc. I hope this explains why the letter of the T&C's is applied so rigorously. I also hope that the current trading figures of most carriers explains why all extra revenue is grabbed.

I don't work for flybe.

[Haven't a clue]

jaycee46 said (and apologies for thread creep)

This took about 5 minutes, by which time the queue was nearly out the door

This wouldn't be the same queue that I and family (including two young children) spent 80 mins in trying to check in at Jersey last Saturday, by any chance?

Arrived 2 hours before the flight and joined an enormous queue. Two desks serving the queue, 2 more apparently serving Fast Bag Drop and Economy Plus, but helping out as they seemed to have few customers. Was forced to wait while those arriving late were pulled from the line and pushed to the front by harrassed FlyBe staff. Eventually got to the front and was rudely told I had to wait some more while yet more herds of people were fed in from the back.

Harrassed FlyBe person says it's the same story every Saturday.

OK they probably got all their pax away, but to compare the treatment of us all to a third world state would be an insult to such a state. Given they know the volumes at the start, and given that there are spare desks available surely someone in the know should have varied whatever deal FlyBe have with Servisair to accomodate this crush in a more friendly and efficient way.

FlyBe Jersey outbound customers you've now been warned!

[Rainboe]

I think the weight of the hold bag is logged somewhere for loss/insurance/loadsheet purposes, therefore it is on the system and the check-in staff may have to account for any lack of additional fees collected. Whatever, it is quite simple that 20kgs hold/10 kgs hand does not mean 22kgs hold/8kg hand. Queues of hundreds of people at the check in desk and pressure of time has largely taken that discretion on the part of check-in staff largely away. These days, isn´t it accepted: go over any limit and you will be charged for it. You may as well offer to forego your inflight meal so you can take an extra 2 1/2 kgs!

[Avman]

However, Cabin and Hold baggage limits have been set separately for as long as I can remember and I have been paxing for 43.5 years.

Absolutely correct. I've been paxing regularly for 52 years and, until more recent times (i.e. the loco mania) witnessed nothing but common sense applied by airline personnel regarding these rules. I recognise and sympathise with lexxity's explanation, which is the core of many of today's problems. Staff are discouraged from using discretion and common sense. Hence the reason for such poor customer service now days.

[Icare9]

jaycee46
How about doing the decent thing and amending your caption to this thread?
Wot a shower? So wot does that make you?
You cause an enormous queue to build up when you have been told that a max of 20 kg is allowed for hold baggage. If the check in clerk had told you to go to the back of the queue and repack, that would have been fairer on everyone YOU held up. You were in the wrong, so admit it and learn to read the rules for next time. They DO apply to you, not just others. I am surprised that you bothered to announce publicly that you didn't know that 22.5 kg would result in a penalty charge.
Are you like this about getting a parking ticket? "I didn't realise I'd get a ticket after 2 hours, because I paid for an hour".

[Avman]

Are you like this about getting a parking ticket? "I didn't realise I'd get a ticket after 2 hours, because I paid for an hour".

What a ridiculous analogy!

--------------------------------------------

Let's just re-cap here. Airline allowance: 20Kg hold and 10Kg cabin = 30Kg

Pax checks-in with 22.5Kg hold and (say) 7Kg cabin = 29.5Kg.

And you are all seriously ridiculing jaycee46? Get a grip people :ugh:

By the way, how many of you are able to correctly weigh your bags at home - or returning from a vacation? What is the accuracy of airline check-in scales? I know the answer to the second question: VERY POOR!

[Skipness One Echo]

Actually it's endemic in society. Without making too much of a political point, everything in the UK is now super regulated and we live in a tick box culture where with the best of intentions, the result is that all discretion is discouraged.

This is the reason many Police go after soft targets, many schools have glowing reports and yet our exams are crap, the reason there is soooo much traffic calming ( can't be trusted with any straight roads can the British public ) and why the NHS has more money than ever, more targerts than ever and the filthiest wards in Western Europe. Everyone can see all the nice wood but there's no sign of any trees.

In the same way we now have more passengers than ever, paying less for a nightmarish and often humiliating flying experience. I might add this is the workd where the ATC Radar Controller directing 1000s of us into Heathriw cannot be trusted to take a 101ml yogurt to work.

Still honestly think you'd get away with your argument in this century jaycee46?

More legislation than any other government in history and it's still not going well. There just may be a lesson there but most of us are too stupid or obese or smacked up or indebted to care anymore. ( God I am getting more cynical )

[croberts134]

I'll probably be shot at for this, but my reading of 20kg hold baggage and 10kg hand baggage, means that the ticket they sold me entitles me to take 30kg (subject to Health & Safety max single bag limit of 23, 25?kg) on the aircraft, and they have done their costings, fuel calculations and weight & balance calculations, based on that 30kg maximum.

If they had intended for you to read it that way then they would have written "30kg baggage to be split between hold and hand however you see fit". They did not write that.

I consider it from the other side. If they allowed you to just take 30kg and not care where it went, a 30kg bag could be in the overhead bin. I certainly don't want to risk someone's 30kg bag falling on my head. With your interpretation of the baggage allowance, this is a distinct possibility.

I took it up with the supervisor at the ticket desk, :ugh:who unsurprisingly was of little help, and showed no interest, stating that it was clearly explained on their website. (Booked the flights as part of a package, so never actually saw the website)

Ignorance is almost never a valid defense. Nothing prohibited you from looking at the website and confirming if what you (incorrectly) thought was indeed the case.

What a ridiculous analogy!

Well here's a different one. An airplane ticket is a contract. In this case that contract allows 20kg of hold baggage and 10kg of hand baggage.

Assume you entered into a contract to purchase green and red M&Ms (ostensibly the same product...chocolate inside, candy shell outside) and the contract allowed up to 20,000 green M&Ms and up to 10,000 red M&Ms for one price. The contract also states that if you go over the individual M&M counts, you pay extra. If you decided on the day of the handover to take 22,000 green M&Ms and only 8,000 red M&Ms, you would have to pay extra. It may not seem commonsensical but its the contract you bought into.

[reportyourlevel]

I had a similar situation with the same airline at Gatwick at the end of last year. Mrs reportyourlevel and I both had about 23kg hold baggage and 5kg hand baggage. No worries, left the queue, repacked, rejoined queue, checked in without a fuss.

This is copied directly from flybe's terms and conditions (http://www.flybe.com/flightInfo/1baggage.htm (http://www.flybe.com/flightInfo/1baggage.htm)):


Hold baggage for Economy passengers
20kgs per person (excluding infants)

Hand baggage for Economy passengers
Maximum permitted dimensions = 50cm x 35cm x 23cm
Max weight = 10kgs in one bag.

When measuring your baggage and where appropriate please ensure that you include the bag's wheels. The maximum permissible weight for a single item of checked in baggage is 30kgs .

This is pretty clear - you are allowed max 10kg in the cabin and max 20kg in the hold. It does not mention combining the two separate allowances.

I often wonder when reading threads on here or watching programmes like Airline on the TV why people who behave like children expect to get treated like adults. If you're rude and insulting to the staff any tiny little bit of sympathy that the had for you (and thus any tiny little bit of discretion they were going to apply) disappears. You accepted the rules by paying for the ticket, if you don't like them then fly with someone else who has different rules.

It seems to me that people almost feel scammed and cheated when they get charged for extra baggage/meals/choice of seats etc. but what they forget is that they've actually agreed to it when booking - it's written there in black and white. The fact that you chose not to read all the terms of the agreement is your fault, not the airline's. Likewise, if you don't understand the agreement, it's you fault for not finding out what it means.

[Phileas Fogg]

Ever heard the expression "One gets what one pays for"?

I don't 'do' LCC's, unless there is no other reasonable alternative, and I've never had a problem with being up to 5kg over my checked in baggage allowance, indeed sometimes a membership of an airline's points programme, KLM as an example, will increase the baggage allowance.

But travel by LCC, whereas they offer a lower base fare but then charge 'rip off' prices for food & drink, seat allocation, a card booking fee, being a kilo overweight on baggage etc., then one should double check their baggage weights, and do something about it, before checking in and inconveniencing other passengers who may have taken the care to check their baggage weights etc.

[Final 3 Greens]

How about doing the decent thing and amending your caption to this thread?

Well let me render the thread title appropriate.

How else would you describe an airline that charges GBP600 for a one way flight, cannot check the pax in until -30 at the gate, thus denying him the use of the exec lounge included in the ticket, then fail to give him a meal voucher, so that the crew onboard decline to proivde the snack and drinks included in the ticket, even though they say they are aware he should have it, from the ticket price?

Shower seems spot on for me.

And it seems that this airline wasn´t able to fulfil the obligations of the contract, so perhaps that is not the holy grail some here would make it.

I wouldn´t describe Flybe as ´low cost´, just cheap.

[bfisk]

Well, the hold bags and the carryons are individually accounted for as far as weight and balance of the aircraft is concerned. Since carryons are not weighed, standard weights are used. That means that the changed weight of a carryon does not affect the aircrafts ability to carry fuel (on paper that is), while a changed weight of the hold baggage will...

[nickmo]

You might well also challenge the accuracy of the scales used to queery the amount of fees charged for any excess weight if past reports have a foundation. Last year there were quite a few news items flying around about in-accuracy of baggage scales at check in - e.g. the Guardian article:

The scales of justice for baggage 'cheats' | Money | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/apr/05/consumeraffairs)


That piece actually has a comment - true or not, as it is a shock/horror news item piece of journalism - that check-in staff with Menzies had a bonus for collecting overweight bag fees.........

The Post Office is required to verify the accuracy of the scales each day - does Trading Standards apply at check in too in the same manner, especially as more pax are being charged? If true that scales are found starting at +5kg before bags are placed on them is this not a criminal offence if fees are demanded with no recourse to the pax to query this in a timely manner. Does any poster have experience of challenging the fees demanded by getting the bags re-weighed or even requesting that the accuracy of the scales be confirmed in their prescence? Boy, that would cause a queue!!

It is a bit like seeing the correct luggage tag go on the bags before they are whisked away - I'm in a bit of a habit of just watching the correct label go on, as well as trying to keep within allowances / sizes and making sure the rules for any flight have been checked. It is up to the pax to understand the terms, as others have noted, but there seems no standardisation, so it is possible to mis-interpret the requirements esp. if using a couple of different carriers (with varying rules and regs) on a single journey.

[Capetonian]

I challenged the accuracy of the scales on check in at CPT. My bag which I'd weighed at home as 21 kgs put on 7 kg on the 25 minute trip to the airport and she wanted to charge me almost a thousand Rand. When I asked the check in agent if I could weigh myself on the belt(she refused but I did it anyway!) I had similarly put on 7kg in the same time. She refused to let me go to another counter and I refused to budge until she called a supe. Supe arrived, put my case onto another belt which showed the weight as 17.5 kg, and a third which showed it as 22 kg. A little worrying to say the least.

I have concerns about this not only from a commercial point of view but also from a weight and balance perspective.

[Avman]

Capetonian validates my (other) point. I experienced it myself (in Madrid a few years ago when my 19Kg bag weighed in at 25Kgs) and it is most certainly not unusual.

Here's an idea for the locos. Why not provide pax waiting at the check-in or bag drop-off line with a means to weigh their bags - and thus make any necessary weight ballancing adjustments before reaching the counter?

[jaycee46]

Nice to get a bit of relavent debate going here, with a few obvious exceptions - Icare9 - your intuitive observation shows you obviously completely missed the point - to use your analogy, if I pay for 2 hours parking and get fined after 90 minutes, I think I am entitled to be annoyed.

Phileas Fogg - not all of us have the flight options available to you, and here in sunny Scotlandshire, the LoCo's and charters are fast becoming our only options. Maybe that will change when the BAA / BA / LHR cartel is finally broken by the competition authorities, with the sale of GLA or EDI - we can but hope!

Just to put a couple of points straight, which I missed from the original post. The same bags travelled from EDI the previous week, weighing slightly more - we did use shampoo, shower gel etc, whilst away - without any issue, comment or charge - I guess EDI checkin agents are allowed to use their initiative! To take up NICKMO's point, I did actually weigh our bags before leaving home, (did not have the bathroom scales on holiday for weighing the return bags - too heavy!) and both bags were under the 20kg hold limit, but at EDI checkin, they had each put on a full kilo, making them technically overweight. Maybe I should have asked for the calibration certificates of the scales in JSY, and held up the queue even longer?
For the avoidance of doubt, and the benefit of those in the queue, after our initial incredulity and attempt at reasoning - not behaving like children Reportyourlevel - we quickly repacked the bags, didn't ask to see the calibration certificate finished check in and moved away. No shouting, no petted lips - minimal holdup to the others in the queue. For your information, the one other open check in desk was doing the same thing to a party of 6 or 7 pax, which obviously took much longer. The frank exchange of views took place at the ticket desk, with a FlyBe supervisor, who incidentally Wingo Wango, showed no inclination to commit anything to paper.

The responses on here seem to fall into three camps: 1. Those obviously empolyed by the airline(s) 2. Those who keep to the 'computer says no' mentality, without any flexibility or initiative, hiding behind the T & C's. 3. Those who have some degree of understanding and agreement with the principal I am trying to make.

I am intellegent enough to fully understand (thanks for the enlightenment from some of you) what 20kg hold and 10kg hand means, but to be so inflexible over what was 2.5kg, weighed by potentially inaccurate measuring equipment, and within the paid for total allowance, to me, and I think most right minded people, beggers belief. I would be interested to know how much cash FlyMayBe made on Saturday at JSY, from excess baggage, or did they merely create a huge queue by getting folk to repack their bags at checkin, to take the same weight on the A/C, for little or no financal benefit? The sort of shoot and foot scenario springs to mind here! Or is there a competition between checkin staff to see who can have the longest queue? (cheap I know, but probably true!)

Just to creep the thread slightly, if I may, for all you FlyMayBe employees looking at this, I used to use the airline on a regular, 2 - 3 times a month, basis, GLA / BHX, full price flexible tickets, and actually was a member of your F.F. programme. Then came the shambles which was the aquisition of BA-CONNECT. Unbelievable delays, cancellations, appaling customer service, the lot. I almost became a plane spotter, the amount of time I spent in the observation deck at BHX, waiting for the next flight! I started using the train at that time - what a revalation. City Centre to City Centre quicker than flying, cheaper, more comfortable, more reliable, did not have to strip down to nearly my scants to get on, could carry on a bottle of water / shampoo / cola. Even driving was a better option if there was a couple of us travelling. Me and my colleagues business is now lost to you, and our reason for looking for an alternative was basically due to your airline's cr*p service, albeit some time ago (hopefully improved now, but no experience). We have no dersire to return to the air for the BHX trips, for the reasons stated above. To be honest, when I saw that my holiday company was using FlyMayBe (sorry to keep using the old name, but it kinda stuck in the mind during all the delays and cancellations), I made all attempts to find an alternative, but a 4 hour layover at LGW, waiting for our national flag carrier, being the next best option, was a non starter. How many other people have taken the same steps away from flying - regional airlines need to take note.

Jaycee

[G SXTY]

If you're looking to get a rise from Flybe employees, you'd probably get a bit more credibility - and more thoughtful responses - if you could at least use the correct company name.

With the BA Connect acquisition, Flybe effectively doubled in size overnight. Teething troubles were regrettable, but pretty much inevitable. A lot of people put in a lot of work to make the merger / acquisition a success, and I'd like to think that service and reliability are a whole lot better than the early days.

Flybe are not responsible for you having to 'strip down to nearly my scants' - thank the Department of Transport for that one. If it's any consolation, your pilots and cabin crew have to abide by the same rules - we can lock ourselves in a flightdeck with a big crash axe but can't bring a pot of yoghurt to work.

I don't know if you mean to Jaycee but in your posts you come across as someone who has decided they don't like Flybe very much. Persisting in calling the company 'FlyMayBe' and describing us as a 'shower' simply because the check-in agent enforced the terms and conditions you signed up to suggests you have pretty much made up your mind, and there's not much me, Jim French or anyone else from Flybe can do to change it.

[jaycee46]

G SXTY

You are quite wrong to suggest that I do not like FlyBe, and I'm not having a go, merely trying to stimulate reasoned debate.

As a supplier to me of a service, in this case travel, I have found the service received, in the past, from FlyBe to be less than I would consider to be satisfactory, and have moved my business to an alternative supplier, ie Virgin Trains. This is not purely a FlyBe issue, I and many others, judging by the contents of this forum, find the whole air travel experience in the UK to be hugely unpleasant, for reasons, some of which have been stated previously, whether it be with FlyBe, EZY, FR, BA, BD, or anyone else, so I'm not picking on BE - it was just unfortunate for you, that my recent bad experience happened to be with you, and I do also realise that a lot of the crap at airports is not all the fault of the airlines, but I would point out, that the airlines are the airport customers, and should be taking them to task over the matter!

I would respectfully suggest, with no personal malice, that your post perhaps sums up what is wrong with the airline industry in the UK. Your defence of your employer is admirable, and to be applauded. However, what you seem to fail to grasp is that I am a farepaying customer, with a grievance. Without the SLF, paying the fares, and traveliing with the airlines, there is no need for airlines, and as a consequence, obviously,no airline jobs. Would it not be better if a bit more time was spent looking after those paying the wages, rather than ridiculing (SLF - I ask you!) them, and accepting that some of the criticism of the industry and its procedures has foundation, rather than working out new stealthy ways to prise a few extra quid out of us.

Here's a free idea. Stick a tenner on each ticket, loose all the crappy penal charges, and offer a service that people will readily want to heap praise upon. People living outside the London (all), MAN & BHX areas are more interested in the availability of direct flights which avoid the above, and to be honest, within reason the price is of secondary importance.

In respect of the BACON merger (also done to death on this forum), I'm sure there was a huge amount of difficult work and effort, but is that not what you do - run an airline? The passenger just wants to buy a ticket, turn up at the appointed time, and be taken to the destination on the ticket, on time, without hassle, and in safety. Really not interested in the internal operational problems, until they interfere with the service received.

The new West Coast Main Line service will very soon mean that I can get to London from Glasgow in 4 hours, so not needing an air service for my 15 - 20 trips a year to London. That is not good news for regional air services. Just read that VLM has binned LCY / MAN, because the cannot compete with the train, even though I would consider LCY has to be one of the less unpleasant airport experiences - more to come I'm sure.

[BRUpax]

At the time FlyBE became a complete shambles I gave up flying with them. Haven't used them since. I now fly to my regular UK destination (12-16 round trips per year) with the competition. They haven't upset me once and provide a good service. My loyalties are now with them. I get so many "special" limited time offers by e-mail (which then get extended because of their outstanding "success") that I sometimes wonder if Flybe are becoming desperate to fill seats?

[TightSlot]

...merely trying to stimulate reasoned debate.
I'm not convinced that this is actually the case. I think that in reality you are looking for opinions that support or bolster your position and discarding those that do not. You will doubtless continue to post on the thread until you perceive that you have blunt-instrumented your view on the world at large. The "potentially inaccurate measuring equipment" that you now include as part of your case was never mentioned in the original complaint: It's just a convenient add-on. Other add-ons will come with time.

Sadly, this kind of forum tends to attract this kind of thread and it is rarely attractive, or indeed, of value. A contract was entered into with a company, and when the terms of that contract were enforced the toys come flying out of the cot: As always, the usual suspects are around to raise the tantrum temperature. Rules and agreements are, of course, for application to other people, never with the person experiencing the problem who is always a suitable candidate for "discretion" by virtue of... whatever the writer decides is a valid reason. If not 2.5kgs, what then should be the limit? What degree of "discretion" should be used, how often and to whom? These questions are never addressed appropriately, if at all.

We can, of course, all bemoan the loss of discretion and initiative amongst staff, or the lack of non-LoCo airlines in a particular region, the global avaricious airline conspiracy against the innocent travelling public and whatever reason-du-jour is available. For the record, most airline staff don't like it more than their customers. Airlines will tend to behave like that because that is the Business model that their customers have chosen. Chicken and egg arguments about whether the airlines or the customers started it all are pretty much impossible to resolve, and, given that the evidence is personal and anecdotal, pointless. The most successful airlines in Europe (and further afield) are the LoCo's - that is because customers have chosen, on short-haul that price should be the sole purchasing determinant. The customers are the public, and we are all the public. We have the airline system that we have chosen, and therefore... that we deserve.

[Avman]

As one of TightSlot's "usual suspects", I'll bow out with this: If my colleagues and I were not to use discretion and common sense by the bag full every day of our working lives, I kid you not, you (TightSlot) and your passengers would be spending a great deal more time either on the ground or in the air before reaching your destination! That's why I'm a pain-in-the-ar$e advocate for those two virtues. Over and out.

[Crepello]

While not wishing to "kiss the posterior" of a mod, I think TightSlot's posting sums things up nicely.

Don't forget that excess charges do NOT reflect increased operating costs due to weight, but allow airlines to recoup the revenues they'd otherwise have made in less competitive markets.

The OP latterly suggested "stick[ing] on a tenner" for extras. Nice idea, but in practice more expensive tickets don't compete. "Hidden extras" are a way to redress the balance. The OP did accept these conditions when he originally purchased tickets, or authorised others to act on his behalf.

Talk of "check in commonsense" is misplaced. In so many areas, discretion has been removed from customer-facing roles so that carefully calculated algorithms advance the survival - not prosperity - of competitors in a crowded market. You might not like it. I don't like it much, either. But I won't delay a queue of hopeful travellers by struggling with my side of the bargain.

Oddly enough, the US "invented" cheap air travel and now rewards regulars with baggage perks, upgrades and express security - for no additional cost. We reciprocate by returning, time and again. What are my once-beloved Europeans waiting for? :E :} :ok:

[Di_Vosh]

Getting back to the first post

The aircraft is not really bothered whether it is in the hold or in the overhead locker.

Are you sure about that? You said that you flew in a Q400. I can assure you that any of the Dash8 series of aircraft really do care where the extra weight is.

The Q400 has 72 seats (or up to 76 depending on fittings) and is one of the few passenger aircraft that are longer than their wingspan. The baggage hold is at the rear of the passenger compartment and not underneath the passenger compartment as it is in most of the larger jet aircraft.

Taking the OP's position to it's extreme conclusion, you might have a situation where all the pax have their "extra 10 kg" in their hold luggage. That is up to 760 kg right down the back of the aicraft (instead of being spread around evenly). If that were to happen, the aircraft Weight and Balance would be so far to the rear that the aircraft may be uncontrollable in flight.

When that happens, the people in load control have two options:
1. Remove hold luggage (get your bags later)
2. Remove passengers (the last few rows of the aircraft kept empty)

So you may want to entertain the possibility that weight restrictions are there for a reason. At least in this case.

DIVOSH!

[Haven't a clue]

WingoWango This like you say does reward regulars with extra baggage allowance (30kg hold and 10kg cabin),

If that's true then it's well hidden and not promoted. You get 30kg if you pay for a flexible fare. The rewards scheme does allow you access to the lounges by cashing in points, and "free" flights (the quotes are there because you do have to pay taxes and charges) but not AFAIK extra luggage allowances.

I am constantly struggling to make my hand and hold luggage fit into the FlyBe baggage allowances and the onward long haul allowances, and would really welcome trading points or sensible cash for an extra cabin or hold allowance. Oddly the extra hold allowance is available on an interline ticket, but that isn't available to me.

The point made about customers trying to stretch whatever allowance they are given is so true.

[lexxity]

Haven't a clue, could you look at booking a through ticket for your onwards?

Standard allowances are generally Economy 20kgs, business/premium 30kgs, first 40kgs. This does not include The Americas.

You should always check with your actual carrier and please do this before arriving at the airport.

[Haven't a clue]

Lexxity thanks for that but I can't always travel on one ticket. Apologies to all for drifting away from the original subject....

[Final 3 Greens]

Wingo Wango

I think i have seen you post something similar on another thread. But your post lacks enough detail to understand the full picture of your problem. I say this to every other poster who have had problems with airlines and are on PPRuNe complaining. Have you made an effort to express your complaint directly with the company via writing/email/telephone?? If so share the results? If not then stop moaning as doing so on PPRuNe is not going to have any effect on getting you compensated if that is you deserve to be. With all due respect.

If you take the time to do some research you will find that satisfied customers tell several people of their experience and dissatisfied people tell several times more, thus amplifying the complaint.

That is why you recall my post elsewhere and why I have told many people since this flight about the experience and I will continue to to so.

Your remark about compensation is quite insulting, if you work for Flybe, you should be ashamed for making that comment, as I have never suggested that I wished for any compensation.

You don't need to understand anything more than the facts I posted, I was entitled to receive lounge access and snacks/drinks and did not.

Furthermore, when I asked for a comment form, the airline did not have any available; I was going to complete one and ask the crew to send it to their ops department.

If you think that a busy person like me is going to take the time and trouble to trawl through a website to find a contact form, you are wrong.

That is the equivalent of being punished for the airline failing to provide the right service level and customer service 101 (which seems to have missed the reading list of most airline employees) suggests that it is unwise to rely on such mechanisms and that a company should make it easy for customers to complain, so that the negative can be turned into a positive and the customer retained.

When similar service breakdowns have happened on other airlines, the no 1 CC member has asked permission to make a report on my behalf and the airline has contacted me to apologise.

As there are plenty of other carriers out there, I have voted with my feet and will not be giving Flybe a second chance, unless it is the only company offering a service on a route. when I need one (which is highly unlikely.)

[Final 3 Greens]

Go figure...

PPrune is R&R for me, I've been on the board for nearly 10 years.

Whereas I flew with your company once and have no intention of darkening your doors again.

You go figure.....

[G SXTY]

WW I recommend the ignore button - it works a treat for me. :ok:

[Crepello]

I'm getting a little confused - are we discussing:
- A passenger who hoped the T&C would be rewritten to his advantage at check-in, or
- A passenger with zero tolerance for mistakes, who had a negative experience but chose not to follow up with the airline?

On reflection, there's a common root cause, and it's nothing to do with airlines or travel..... :rolleyes:

[Haven't a clue]

Crepello how on earth do you manage to get rid of the vertical line
<< here that we mortals have to live with??

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm getting a little confused - are we discussing:

The moral of the story is that if a company messes their customers about, the business goes elswhere.

It seems that Jaycee suffered from totally pointless repacking, so that the check in agent could deliver a SLA.

In my case, the company chose to charge a very high fare, failed to deliver the promised service levels and then did not provide an industry wide/standard comment card to facilitate feedback.

Others in the thread report that they have chosen to take the train to avoid the airport experience or because the Flybe service did not meet their needs.

To go back to the thread title, it commented that Flybe was a 'shower' and I have not seen any evidence to the contrary.

[Avman]

WingoWango, the total number of pax you carry doesn't mean a thing. What counts is yield. The more PREMIUM fare pax you carry the better. They're the ones you can't afford to upset and lose to the competition, be it air, rail or car.

[Bealzebub]

Here's a free idea. Stick a tenner on each ticket, loose all the crappy penal charges, and offer a service that people will readily want to heap praise upon. People living outside the London (all), MAN & BHX areas are more interested in the availability of direct flights which avoid the above, and to be honest, within reason the price is of secondary importance.

Good job the idea was free because it has no value. The problem is in the perception that "a tenner" is all it takes to give you the full service you require. People have fallen in love with the idea that they can fly for less than it costs to park their car. It is obvious to anyone with an ounce of intelligence that an airline cannot charge £0.99p, £1.99, £11.99, £29.99, £39.99 etc and be achieveing anything like a cost break even, let alone a profit! Those aircraft are high expense capital assests with monthly leasing costs of around $300,000, plus expensive employee infrastructure costs, expensive consumables (fuel) and operating costs (airport fees, overflight and navigation charges, maintenance.) The maths simply do not work at this level. There are cheap fares out there, that are definate loss leaders for the airlines concerned. They have to complete in an environment where the competition can advertise these ridiculously low fares and they have to match the headline numbers to attract the same or similar volumes of site traffic.

All of this can only be achieved by a combination of the "pile 'em high sell 'em cheap" together with yield management whereby the loss leaders fill a proportion of the plane, thereby making the remaining seats of higher value to the needy and desperate, and most importantly the "smell the coffee" approach, whereby (just like supermarkets) an attractive aroma or inducement gets the customers through the door, where it is anticipated that they will be enticed to open their wallets and spend far more than they were anticipating. For airlines this is the ancillary products they offer. Once it was the expensive sandwiches, drinks and catalogue goods. That has now been expanded into a complete dissection of the whole customer service anatomy. Check in on line = pay extra. Check in at the airport = pay extra. Take a limited amount of baggage = pay extra. Pick a seat or a better place in the queue = pay extra. Want legroom = pay extra. Want flexibility = pay a lot extra. Want more baggage allowance at the airport = pay a lot extra. Fail to turn up on time = Pay a lot extra. Once on board the same captive customer promotions are the final opportunity to part the consumer from their discetionary cash.

If you think any or all of this can be satisfied by "an extra tenner" you are not being even remotely realistic. The idea that everyone will flock to your company if you provide a little more, but charge extra is somewhat naive in that everyone might say "Oh yes definetaly," but far too few actually put their money where their mouths are, and make the proposition worthwhile. You only have to look at the low cost premium carriers that tried this in recent years, all of whom have failed! Look at the "full service" carrriers who are now losing money hand over fist because their profit cabins are simply not selling at any sort of satisfactory profit. Few if any airlines are making any profit from seat sales. The profits (where applicable) are coming from the sales of the ancillary products.

The concept that you might "get away" with a bit extra, or can introduce your own rationale into the process is very wishful thinking in an industry where survival is all about the sale of these ancillary products. £10 you are having a laugh!

[Crepello]

The moral of the story is that if a company messes their customers about, the business goes elswhere.

:ugh: The point of the story is that low margin business models require conditions of contract to be upheld. Customers who refuse to acknowledge this, or demand non-standard provisions, are customers the company is better off without.

You have to move with the times. Back in the 80s competition was lower, prices were higher, staff were plentier and the customer was always right. We've moved on. Margins have given way to volumes, costs have been pared and everything goes through the website. Comment cards? Quaint.

The customer can be right - provided they understand the business model. That's what we're working on here... :rolleyes:

[10W]

Skipness 1E

In the same way we now have more passengers than ever, paying less for a nightmarish and often humiliating flying experience. I might add this is the workd where the ATC Radar Controller directing 1000s of us into Heathriw cannot be trusted to take a 101ml yogurt to work.


Nope, there is no liquid restriction of which you talk. Many folks bring their own food and drink in when doing Heathrow Radar, with no limits.

Heathrow Tower controllers on the other hand ...

[Skipness One Echo]

D'oohh I DID know that. Sorry.

[Capetonian]

I was booked on a LGW-JER with Flybe. My inbound transatlantic arrived early and I'd allowed about 3 hours to connect as I was on separate tickets, so I had plenty of time (nearly two hours) to take an earlier flight than the one I was booked on.

I went to the ticket counter to change the flight and was told that, yes, they had 'a load' of seats on the earlier flight, but it would cost me £70 to change onto it, just slightly more than I'd paid for the original ticket! I wasn't in that much of a hurry but it irked me that some 18 year bimbo, with 5 kilos of make up and nose and lip studs, refused to accept my contention that they would be better off letting me go on a seat that would otherwise go empty, and possibly selling my seat on the later flight to a go-show. Even if my seat on the later flight had remained empty they would not have lost revenue. The pimply 'supervisor' was not prepared to discuss the matter.

So I stood aside, rang Exeter (I'd asked the ticket counter to do so but they refused) was rebooked, and my ticket revalidated for the earlier flight at no charge.

I've worked in revenue management and heard all the arguments, but I have yet to hear one that convinces me that, provided there is space available and time for formalities to be completed, there is no reason why an airline should not accept a go-show for an earlier flight. Several make it a policy to do so, Easyjet being perhaps the first example that comes to mind.

Other than that, I flew about 20 sectors last year with BE, mostly in and out of the Channel Islands, and had no problems that were down to the carrier or its policies. I'm doing another flight with them this weekend so I may have further comments after that!

[Crepello]

:ugh: :ugh: Ticketing flexibility can easily be yours - for a higher initial fare. But once again, it's a case of "I bought the cheapest possible ticket, and now I want the airline to change the rules because they no longer suit me."

Charming comments about the checkin staff, too. Shame on Exeter for letting the side down!

[frontcheck]

capetonian -you say you worked in revenue management , you should therefore undestand the 18 year old bimbo (your words) and the pimply supervisor (again your words) were in fact doing their job correctly. Why dont you start your own airline, charge everyone low fares with restrictions, then allow them to swap flights,dates,times etc.,free of charge and see how long it lasts !
You are responsible for making yourself aware of the conditions of your ticket at time of purchase.
If you purchased a supermarkets own brand of beans them took it back next day and wanted to swap it free of charge for a more expensive tin, do you think it would be allowed? :rolleyes:

[Capetonian]

I'm not going to get into a slanging match with the posters of the last two comments, nor to stoop to that level of sarcasm.

You have both missed the point, which given that you are making some assumptions is unsurprising, and don't really appear to have much grasp of the fundamentals of balancing customer satisfaction against managing revenue and ensuring that the right seat is sold to the right passenger at the right fare.

[frontcheck]

and that is exactly what happened, the right seat was sold at the right price to you then you expected to be able to change the rules of the fare to suit yourself,,,and gave no thought to any other customer who had paid same fare and abided by the rules.

[Final 3 Greens]

Capetonian

I'd save your breath, if I were you.

The people who are giving you stick are clearly clueless, e.g. one of them said "Comment cards? Quaint."

Strange that I have filled out three of those in the past six weeks, all complimentary of good service received.

[frontcheck]

Final 3 Greens
I can assure you I do know what I am talking about, having been in the airline business over 30 years and having dealt with restricted fares on many many occassions. I have heard every excuse under the sun (and then some) at the end of the day the customer has agreed a contract which they then want to change to suit themselves.
Customer service is not just giving in to someones demands, I agree it depends on how it is said and not what is said. Capetonian asked the question was given the answer he did not want to hear so wanted to speak to a superior why? When this did not work he then asked a 3rd time to the call centre, Why?
Because he wanted to amend the contract without the penalties originally agreed to.

[Final 3 Greens]

Because he wanted to amend the contract without the penalties originally agreed to.

And it suited the airline to do so, or the change would not have agreed without charges.

easyJet has a policy of bumping people on to the next available flight, if a seat is available, have you ever considered why?

And do airlines always stick to the contract terms or implied terms? So please don't make out the contract T&Cs are a form of holy grail.

Your grasp of commerciality, customer service and retention seems tenuous.

[TightSlot]

Your grasp of commerciality, customer service and retention seems tenuous.

No, it just represents a different POV to yours. To suggest that it is less valid and to belittle it is unwise.

There's an interesting split in views on this thread, between those employed by airlines, and those that do business with them. It's worth pointing out that those of you that are customers posting in here are, by definition, not 'normal' customers. You tend to travel more frequently than the majority, and therefore have a perception of the industry that is shaded differently (allowing for the fact that most of those outside here that consider themselves frequent flyers are in fact, not). What I'm getting at is that in certain instances, some of you might feel entitled to privilege or recognition (such as flexibility), and this is warranted. Sadly, it is not warranted for most customers, despite what they may think. It's worth taking another read of the post above by Bealzebub - which, as usual, is right on the money. An excellent description of the how and why of LoCo flying today, and an explanation of why most of you will experience resistance when asking for 'flexibility' and 'discretion'

I spend my working life managing the needs and expectations of our highest value customers, both in-flight and on the ground. On occasion, I flex and bend rules for them, however, this happens much less frequently than you might assume. Most really experienced customers already know the rules and procedures very well, and the real McCoy will avoid getting in those circumstances in the first place, and know how to genuinely seek help when they are stuck. You can spot very quickly those who are the real thing, and those that are wannabes - the real thing is always a pleasure to assist, and is why you come to work that day.

If you are a frequent flyer, regularly spending serious money, with a loyalty account on a full-service airline, you are entitled to expect, well... whatever you want really. If you are travelling on a short-haul LoCo and you choose to expect the same standards and privileges then go ahead - knock yourself out! But you'd surely be naive to expect anything other than disappointment.

P.S.
I'm feeling guilty - the OP hasn't come back, and Avman has retired from the thread. It's true I'm a Mod posting on this thread, but I'm just expressing my personal views. You're all entitled to disagree with them - you don't get banned or punished in some way for having a different view. I may be wrong - my wife tells me often that I am - so, post and prove it

:)

[Final 3 Greens]

There's an interesting split in views on this thread, between those employed by airlines, and those that do business with them.

Also, with the greatest of respect, those of us who have also worked as advisers to the business side of airlines and who have debated the provision of customer service at senior level, working up business cases based on regression analysis of customer behaviour.

If you are a frequent flyer, regularly spending serious money, with a loyalty account on a full-service airline, you are entitled to expect, well... whatever you want really. If you are travelling on a short-haul LoCo and you choose to expect the same standards and privileges then go ahead - knock yourself out! But you'd surely be naive to expect anything other than disappointment.

There is a difference between providing the entitlements of a contract and providing good customer service.

Take easyJet, for example.

Recently, I took three short flights in and around the UK and messed up the online check in for one of them, by doing two things in the wrong order.

The customer service response was fast, efficient and pleasant and my mess up was fixed without fuss.

I got no more nor less than my ticket entitled me to, but the customer experience was excellent.

To come back to Capetonian's comments, easyJet does have a policy of bumping pax on to the next available flight and you can bet your bottom dollar that this is not a charitable act. Someone has made a careful calculation that this is good business.

Like Captonian, I am not convinced that insisting someone travel on a later flight is necessarily good business, if the opportunity cost is low. Once the doors have closed on an earlier flight, that empty seat will generate no revenue, whereas an empty seat on a later flight (especially if becoming full or overbooked) may well do so.

And don't be in any doubt that people will pay a lot of money for such a seat - I have an agreement with one airline that they will make a full fare (Y) ticket available to me at the last minute, even if it means offloading another pax. I have used this facility on a full flight, at great expense, to make an urgent meeting.

What some other posters on this thread display, is a 'smart systems, dumb people' thinking mode (the words being from a professor of marketing I know), which takes good judgment out of the business at the customer interface and relies solely on pricing elasticity (or monopoly) to sell product. One can only conclude that their daily experience has conditioned them to think this way.

Think Ryanair, a business whose values I don't like, but who have displayed great clarity of vision in building a business around focused cost leadership and pricing, with completely inflexible cusomer service. I respect Michael O'Leary and his colleagues for making this model work over a sustained period, even if I don't like a lot of the things they say and do.

But to make it work, you have to be crystal clear on what business you are in and what this means. It means work at a mass market level and managing the aggregate numbers, not paying attention to the individual customer.

Ryanair has achieved this and must be respected - however, in the longer term, there is probably room for only one Ryanair in Europe, IMHO, so trying to copy their model is risky.

Beazalbub's post is interesting, as it shows the tactical thinking in the business at the moment and I understand what he is saying. However, you don't build a successful company on tactics alone and the real winners in the airline sector will be the companies with the best strategies, e.g. Ryanair, Lufthansa, AF/KLM, who have aachieved critical mass in a sector that has over supply. Consolidations and failures are still on the cards.

The average life of a Fortune 500 company is approximately 43 years - how many airlines hit this lifespan?

[frontcheck]

Why is it that Ryanair has a good strategy but no flexibility whatsoever but Flybe are seen as unhelpful with no customer service if they adpot the same policy?
There is also a difference between being bumped to next flight and wanting to take an earlier one to suit yourself.
I am not sure about BE but some airlines actively check where changes have been made to a ticket without additional fares or charges being collected and the appropriate station budget is invoiced for the missed revenue ,unless a good enough reason can be found .

[strake]

In years gone by (as has been mentioned above) regular airline customers could almost demand flexibility and dedicated service. The simple answer that some here are chasing, is that times have changed. I don't know about other airlines but to receive the type of unquestioning service people seem to desire in some previous posts, you have to be Virgin PAMS or BA Premier, or perhaps a long history of double Gold with BA is also acceptable. To gain these levels, you or your company are spending in excess of £50,000 (eg.ten C to Narita/LA/Melbourne etc) per annum, [/I]per person[/I] with the airline and in some cases over £100,000 (ten F to Narita etc). Given that these types of travellers probably have colleagues doing the same, you will see the difference between these customers and the person who does two or three C class flights a year. That person may well see themselves as very important but, in relative terms, they need to put themselves into context.

[Capot]

To reinforce some comments on Capetonian's attempt to persuade an 18-year old bimbo with a pimply supervisor (could be any check-in desk at any airport) that it would be a good idea to fill a seat that's about to depart empty and thus have a seat to sell on a later flight; of course it's always a good idea under all possible circumstances, and any rational airline management would have that policy.

But I doubt it was a case of the bimbo and the pimples "not accepting it"; they are very unlikely to have grasped the concept, and even if they had the morons running them would not allow them to think for themsleves.

Airlines who train their staff properly, then allow them to use their knowledge with common-sense, and praise them for doing so will get better loads and yields than those that don't.

I've been preaching that gospel for 30 years with little visible effect on management "experts" with little or no understanding of how organisations really tick, who always know better, and who move from one failed airline to the next with well-polished explanations that it was someone else's fault.

To me the sheer ignorance of many check-in and handling staff is absolutely staggering; let alone being able to think and act sensibly, they often seem not to understand even the basic elements of airline operations.

[west lakes]

OK I'm not a frequent flier but do know, that despite whatever uniform they are wearing, a lot of the check-in staff and handling agents actually do not work for the airline to which they are allocated.
So can anyone tell me why an airline should empower an employee of a contractor to make, in effect, financial decisions on their behalf. (I know that my employer does not allow any contractor that right) They as the handling agent will be working to a contract that may specifically forbid them to make such decisions.

In Capetonian's case I wonder if that is what happenned, with (possibly) a handling agent dealing with it according to their contract and internal proceedures (though not contacting BE smacks of dis-interest) but when the airline itself were contacted they made a decision, as they are entitled too.

Of couse that does open a debate into the use of handling agents and the terms of reference of their contracts.

[Crepello]

So the debate has matured into "I know better how you should run your business and if you don't do it my way, you're wrong". How very edifying.

Perhaps one of the self-proclaimed experts can explain the following: I regularly fly on a high-frequency route, and book the last evening flight home. Often, I'll be at the airport several hours early.

If I'm on a flex ticket, I can take an earlier flight if seats are available, for no additional cost. If my ticket's restricted, there's a fee for this service. My frequent flier card is very shiny, yet I'm never compelled to beg freebies.

So: If it's such a good idea to provide this flexibility for no additional cost, why would anyone buy the more expensive ticket? :confused:

Apparently I'm "completely clueless" so hopefully the anointed can assist. The airline in question just celebrated it's 75th birthday, so they'd seem to know a thing or two. And the easyJet comparisons are irrelevant as they operate a different pricing structure. Finally:
To me the sheer ignorance of many check-in and handling staff is absolutely staggering; let alone being able to think and act sensibly, they often seem not to understand even the basic elements of airline operations.

I deal with these staff several times a week, politely and respectfully. With rare exceptions they are knowledgable, courteous and professional. Maybe your problems aren't with the staff.... :=

[Final 3 Greens]

Frontcheck

Why is it that Ryanair has a good strategy but no flexibility whatsoever but Flybe are seen as unhelpful with no customer service if they adpot the same policy?

IMHO Ryanair is very clear about the strategy and how they deliver it; The company has also built a huge airline and has a lot more leverage than virtually anyone else.

To put it bluntly, where does a 500KG bear sit, wherever it wishes to. If 250,000 people choose not to fly Ryanair, it would hardly be noticed. How many other airlines could absorb a hit like that? They don't need loyal customers, they use price elasticity as their primary tool.

Zero flexibility give the lowest costs and that's why I think they have a very good strategy. By the way, I don't often fly FR (only when I have no other choice), as I do not like the company values or the product, but I do admire the strategy.

West Lakes

OK I'm not a frequent flier but do know, that despite whatever uniform they are wearing, a lot of the check-in staff and handling agents actually do not work for the airline to which they are allocated.
So can anyone tell me why an airline should empower an employee of a contractor to make, in effect, financial decisions on their behalf.

Business events, business rules and clear processes would deal with this issue. I am not saying that this service should always be provided for free either, just because easyJet do it, but total inflexibility is not always the best choice, either. You can even change a Ryanair ticket, although the price may not be palatable.

strake

You can still get the levels of service from some airlines for a spend of 25,000€ per annum. I know, because I do. the service includes heavily discounted business class tickets, with two standard prices (one for flights up to about 750km and the other 1500km), completely flexible, changeable without penalty as many times as required, with as little as 24 hours notice, refundable (Less a very small processing cost), changes can include cities, as well as dates and times.

I agree that BA don't offer this service anymore, which is one of the reasons I am only silver these days, but there are real alternatives to BA, which I am sure is one reason why their financials are bad news at the moment, as they have lost a lot of the independent travelers like me and their big corporate clients are spending a lot less.

Crepello

Just out of curiosity and not wishing to pick a fight with you, has the airline you mention ever been into chapter 11?

You say "If I'm on a flex ticket, I can take an earlier flight if seats are available, for no additional cost. If my ticket's restricted, there's a fee for this service. My frequent flier card is very shiny, yet I'm never compelled to beg freebies."

Nothing wrong with selling a seat on an earlier flight, if the customer will pay for it. Airlines are not charities, although I wonder if some should be classed as 'not for profits.' :} I've paid an extra 50€ to get an earlier seat in Y, on an airline I don't often use - its good for them and good for me.

With the greatest of respect, if you have to beg for changes, your card may not be as shiny as you think it is. I have a letter from my airline that makes it very clear what is included in my deal and I don't have to beg for any freebies, although I always ask politely when requesting changes.

The point is that mindless inflexibility can cost the airline revenue. (For the avoidance of doubt, I don't believe that Ryanair's inflexiblity in many parts of their service is mindless, it is well thought through.)

[frequentflyer2]

I feel sorry for the desk staff at LGW. I've been in that position myself albeit in a different line of work. You're told under no circumstances can something be allowed. You're told under no circumstances contact a higher authority to discuss the matter on behalf of a customer as the rules must be adhered to. You pass all this on but the customer goes over your head and gets a result even though you have done exactly as instructed. So humiliating. Capetonian then compounds the matter by referring to the staff in much less than flattering terms. What gives him the right to do so? What gives him the right to expect staff to break the rules they have been told they must follow just for him?

[Rusty443]

Well as stated from the beginning the person thought that 20kg Hold & 10kg can be put any where on an aircraft in total 30kg?:= WRONG:ugh:
It is very clear the person has no idea of Load plans, RTOW, COMPUTERS, WEATHER,Fuel and the work that airport staff go through. (Do not tar this airline with your TV shows.) :8
The Company clearly states 20kgs Hold Baggage and 10kgs Hand this is a generous allowance as people do add more when they go through the so called Duty Free.:rolleyes:
The Ladies & Gents behind the counters like to get every one through and on time and have to ask those serious boring questions for security, so every one can fly safely yet you still get the jokers? They have heard it all before!:ugh:
Yet the specials still come through it’s only a kilo, and I’m keeping my scissors! :{:rolleyes:
Well that inconsideration costs time. It frustrates the Check in & Security staff and it can delay flights, create cues, hence your possible non smile at the check in!:mad:
As for the cart tart, she probably agreed with you to shut you up as they have to work and keep other passengers happy as many of us are, as we conform to the rules and safety of our flights.;)

[Ten West]

I took it up with the supervisor at the ticket desk, :ugh:who unsurprisingly was of little help...

Isn't it funny how people are always "Unhelpful" when they're telling you what you don't want to hear? :rolleyes:

[Final 3 Greens]

Rusty 443

Let me remind you that you the airline industry is a service business.

Customers are frustrating, but they pay the bills.

[Final 3 Greens]

FF2

You're told under no circumstances can something be allowed. You're told under no circumstances contact a higher authority to discuss the matter on behalf of a customer as the rules must be adhered to. You pass all this on but the customer goes over your head and gets a result even though you have done exactly as instructed.

So it's the customer's fault for getting the result he wished for?

Sounds to me like an inconsistent business.

Frustrating for the staff? yes, but then no one forces them to work there. If the pain is greater than the benefit, they can pursue other options.

I work in the service sector and my customers frustrate me all the time - its part of the game, get over it or get out of it.

I've even arrived at Paris to deliver a seminar, to be told the venue has been changed to Marseille and we are sorry we forgot to inform you. Back into a taxi, buy hideously expensive ticket and fly to MRS.

As I say, its all part of the game.

[ajamieson]

frontcheck Why is it that Ryanair has a good strategy but no flexibility whatsoever but Flybe are seen as unhelpful with no customer service if they adpot the same policy?
Because Ryanair is:

1. on time
2. cheap

...and FlyMayBe could never hope to be either.

The difference is that Ryanair is much better at its job. I can forgive the discomfort on board and the scrum at boarding because it never promises anything else. I cannot forgive FlyMayBe for repeatedly charging £6 for allocating seats only to ignore the selection and then refusing to give a refund because of an escape clause in the T&Cs.

My favourite delay was a three hour hit on EDINQY (pretty normal for FlyMayBe). The airline had rescheduled the flight to depart three hours earlier, to the obvious inconvenience of all the passengers. Unfortunately no one had changed the crew roster, with the result that we could only depart once the crew arrived for work. This is the same airline that is so quick to punish the same customers for making mistakes as per the OP and his baggage allowance.

[Capot]

I take West Lakes' point about the airline normally being represented by an agent except at its home base, perhaps. But it is within any airline's power to ensure that its agent carries out its policies; if one of those is to empower check-in staff to make sensible decisions on the spot on the airline's behalf so much the better, provided that the agent trains them properly to do that. My course, many decades ago, was 3 months of very hard desk work to learn the business thoroughly, then a year under supervision, but that was in the days when customer service was a well-understood concept.

As for Rusty 443's offering, may I thank her or him for proving my point

let alone being able to think and act sensibly, they often seem not to understand even the basic elements of airline operations.


And it is infinitely depressing that someone who appears to work in the same business as I do can use a puerile phrase like "cart tart" in a semi-literate post lathered with those damn smilies.

[frontcheck]

Final 3 Greens, you state that no-one forces staff to work in their position ,and yes this is true , however no-one forces the customer to buy a restricted ticket, they could quite easily purcharse a flexible fare and change their itinerary until the cows come home , but like most people the fare is the deciding factor. You pays your money and you makes your choice.

[Final 3 Greens]

Frontcheck

I am really sorry, but I don't get the thrust of your last post.

A passenger who asks for a schedule change, that is not permitted within the fare rules is asking for a variation of contract.

The airline is at liberty to accept or reject that request; if it accepts the request, it may choose to levy a charge or to vary the contract free of charge.

There is no point of law that forbids a customer requesting a variation of contract and if one set of employees are overruled by another set of employees, then that is an internal matter.

A customer is perfectly at liberty to escalate the request and in Captonian's example, the personnel at head office decided to vary the contract, free of charge.

If the employees are humiliated or frustrated by being overuled, then they are perfectly at liberty to resign.

[Rusty443]

Three greens, They would not be frustrated if they read the rules or understood what we do?

With airlines trying to cut costs and Handling Companies feeling the squeeze with not enough staff to cover the tasks, the personnel also get frustrated?:rolleyes:

Personnel on Holiday, sick etc, probably why the other desk is empty?

NOT A EXCUSE A FACT!

Many of the staff are multi-tasked and normally have to load the flights as well.:ok:

Yes the customer pays for a service but can not expect to take extra weight because they have decided to bend the rules to suit them?:ugh:

I know of an airline who used to let people do this, the pax flew to thier destination, but due to the aircraft type, fuel and RTOW and so many over weight bags the baggage used have to go on other flights due to that was more frustating especially for people who had connecting flights as they would not see their bags for a week after or longer.:sad:

This caused extra work again screening retagging and asking the next crew to accept the rush bags? if they said no then this has to wait for the next flt and so on. Thats frustrating!:mad:

My main point is if your not happy paying for you ignorance then stick to the rules.:{

I fly regular and never have any trouble, not just with this airline.:cool:

[Final 3 Greens]

Rusty

I am rendered speechless by that incoherent rambling, I'm not even quite sure what your point is.

Nonetheless, as long as a service company has customers, they will try to work the system.

Get over it.

[Rusty443]

Final Three Greens

Sum it up:

Rules, Ignorance, Bums!:ugh:

[clareprop]

If the employees are humiliated or frustrated by being overuled, then they are perfectly at liberty to resign.

A rather arrogant and unrealistic piece of advice given the current economic climate. People have mortages and other bills to pay and it's not exactly a jobseekers market out there. Unless of course, things look so much better from more lofty perches.

[RevMan2]

Lexxity's right, of course.

Someone at the airline decrees that it's 20k checked and 10k cabin.

The person who carries out these instructions is either a) a lowly employee of the airline or b) a lowly employee of the handling agent and they know EXACTLY what will happen if they turn a blind eye and get caught. Which is what WILL happen, because the airline will monitor revenue streams.
(This is if the DCS will even ALLOW them to check in more than 20k without an Xbag transaction.)

They're in the same position as the WH Smith clerk who HAS to ask me if I'd like to pay 1p for a plastic bag after she's just rung up my bill of £60 for a pile of books and magazines that I'd otherwise have to juggle all the way to the gate.

There's no point in arguing the toss with the folks at the coalface and you won't get far at corporate, either.

Live with it.

[Avman]

"live with it"

No! I don't want to live with it! If we (the public/consumers) all made enough noise about it, instead of being defeatists like RevMan2, corporations would be forced to rethink their policies and provide the consumer a decent SERVICE.

[RevMan2]

corporations would be forced to rethink their policies and provide the consumer a decent SERVICE

I'd say that 20k checked and 10k cabin in economy is a decent service.

It's not as if they're changing their minds at check-in and charging you for something that was promised for free.

People (those who are functionally literate, anyway) are aware of the policy and if they want to try it on, fine.

But don't start yelling "Unfair" if the airline doesn't want to play ball.

And for goodness sake, DON"T SHOUT AT THE STAFF

[Skipness One Echo]

It would seem undeniable that in the real world this is a set of rules which is seen to upset a minority of passengers leading to underpaid staff with few prospects and no discretion being abused. This is deemed acceptable to management as the revenue it brings in is seen to be quite high and staff are the handlers problem and can be replaced anyway.

Therein is the problem. flybe don't give a damn about this policy as it is designed to generate incremental revenue from people who don't read terms and conditions. In the real world that's most of us. Legally we have no comeback.

You got stung, move on and fly with someone better next time.

[jaycee46]

Just to clear a couple of points. Tightslot - I am not using a 'blunt instrument' to put across my view, and as you are a moderator of this website, I feel that that post was out of order. Your more recent post, however is more reasoned, and perceptive.

What you airline folks out there need to realise is that the counter to your indignant defence of poor service, inane procedures, berating customers for not reading t&c's, etc etc, is being made by the people who actually pay your wages, the passengers. I do not need to be berated for holding a different view.

A couple of little points to make, I bought my ticket as part of a package holiday, not direct from FlyBe, so had no sight of the t&c's - ignorance is no defence, I know - Maybe FlyBe should co-ordinate with the travel companies they sell seats to, a bit better, and actually confirm the allowances to their customers. Remember not everybody has access to the interweb!

And then as Skipness 1 Echo says:
[QUOTE]
Therein is the problem. flybe don't give a damn about this policy as it is designed to generate incremental revenue from people who don't read terms and conditions. In the real world that's most of us. Legally we have no comeback.


I guess they are not as good at it as FR/EZY/etc

You got stung, move on and fly with someone better next time.

Amen to that, and I have!:ok:

[Boing7117]

Having followed this post for some time - yet to comment - I'll make it short n sweet...

As a FlyBe employee myself - keen to continue to have my wages paid by our fare paying passengers.... and to get back to the original title of the thread.

What would it take from FlyBe to get the two of you back as a fare paying passenger?

I'm mean for all the gripes and the issues you've expressed, the backlash and comments you've sent / received here - what's it going to take to get you folks in particular back using the service again?

Can't help but think that if the two of you returned and used the service once more we might get some more passengers back who are not using this forum.

[Ancient Observer]

My personal view is that 20kg is enough for everyone, aside from those with v young children. As for 10kg in carry-on, who on earth wants to lug that around?
I start from the belief that most of us have too many possessions. Having them is unnecessary, lugging them around is peculiar.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi Boing 7117

I appreciate the tone of your post and to answer your question, either


Flybe is the only carrier operating a route
The alternative carrier(s) competing on a route really mess up big time and I decide to give Flybe another go


Best wishes

[jaycee46]

Boing7117 - your considered tone suggests to me more than an 'employee' of the airline?

In response, I'm afraid my business is lost to you on the lucrative GLA / BHX full fare route. The train is an altogether more pleasant experience. I would also hold the same view, even if an alternative carrier was available, so this is not a purely FlyBe thing. I do accept that part of the crapology associated with air travel in the UK currently is not entirely the fault of the airlines, but, the whole package turned me, and I am sure many others, to seek an alternative.

I agree with Final 3 Greens, if there is no practical alternative by land or sea, or alternate carrier, it would have to be FlyBe.

I'm not being pedantic here - some may disagree, which is fine - just pointing out how much of my business that used to go by air, is lost to the industry. My schedule last week and this, involved a London trip, which is still by air (BMI to LHR in this case, but BA to LCY is normally considered too). York at the weekend, which would (assuming it is still operating, as I did not check) be GLA / LBA, and ground transportation to York - went by train 1st class under £100 return, on time both ways. Finally this week, two days in the Birmingham area - obviously, by air, would be FlyBe, but, due to baggage, I'm taking my car - yes, I admit baggage on a train is a pain, too!

I feel that I have made a point on this thread, and while it would be nice, I do not, and, I would not expect everybody to agree with me - blunt instrument or not - but it would be nice if, particularly the airline people would accept that, among the paying public, there is an alternative view to theirs, and the experience offered is currently not wonderful.

[Capetonian]

I've been away for a few days and thus neither seen nor commented further on this thread. It seems my remarks (posting no 50) upset a couple of people, apparently those who, as others have pointed out, have little notion of the concept of customer satisfaction and retention, particularly in these hard times.

I try to see this from the perspective of both an (ex-)airline employee and a passenger, and often the two perspectives are mutually incompatible.

I've worked for several airlines and done just about everything except flying the 'planes and screwing them together (unless putting chewing gum on a leaking fuel line counts!). My approach and that which I instilled to those around me was that we would give the customer what he/she wanted as long as he/she was reasonable and polite, and it would not cost us (too much - and of course that's hard to define) money. If we couldn't solve a problem we'd explain why and not just refuse.

As for Jaycee46's last response, I'm fully in agreement. I do most of my domestic travelling in UK and Europe by train. It's often more expensive than flying, but is generally more pleasant and can be more cost effective. Flying is rarely ever pleasant, or to put it more precisely, the airport experience generally detracts from any pleasure that the flying itself might give. I also find that the amount of time that one spends at, and getting to and from, airports, is disproportionate to that spent flying, and the shorter the flight is the greater that imbalance becomes.

[Crepello]

Aha - I'm starting to see why Capetonian is struggling to 'get it' in a contemporary context:
We would give the customer what he/she wanted as long as he/she was reasonable and polite, and it would not cost us (too much - and of course that's hard to define) money. If we couldn't solve a problem we'd explain why and not just refuse.

Sounds like you'd no idea of the profit margin for each ticket, nor a given budget for issues resolution. Uncontrolled operational expenses are an excellent way to bankrupt a company.

Of course, explaining why a request has been declined is elementary customer service. In practice, many customers are too piqued to listen to the explanation (even though it'd be far less blunt than "We offered you a flexible ticket but you declined. Now you want it for free.") but if an airline agent doesn't try, this is indeed a problem. Finally:

putting chewing gum on a leaking fuel line
This would be exceptionally dangerous, and a threat to the safety of the aircraft. Please tell us you weren't serious? :=:ugh::rolleyes:

[Capetonian]

Sounds like you'd no idea of the profit margin for each ticket, nor a given budget for issues resolution. Uncontrolled operational expenses are an excellent way to bankrupt a company.

Wrong, there you go again with your assumptions.

putting chewing gum on a leaking fuel line

Don't ask me to tell you what airline it was, because I won't, but I am serious and was told that chewing gum freezes rock solid and is as good as Araldite. I didn't actually do it myself but I did watch it being done. The aircraft survived the flight (I can't tell you the route as that would give the game away, but I can tell you it was long haul over water) and I assume a proper repair was done in due course.

One of the reasons I left that airline was because it had dodgy practices in all areas. I could write a book about it.

[Crepello]

Wrong, (sic) there you go again with your assumptions
Not assumptions but inferences, drawn from your assertion that "would not cost us (too much - and of course that's hard to define) money". If you disagree, let's hear your side?

"Don't ask me to tell you what airline it was" I didn't. "because I won't" Good for you. "but I am serious" Really? "and was told that chewing gum freezes rock solid and is as good as Araldite."

What about operating conditions above freezing point? Physical reactions are one aspect, but what about the chemical interactions between fuel and the gum? Or, for that matter, Araldite?

"dodgy practices in all areas" would be a whole new conversation, and I'm be curious to learn how unscrupulous operators could be reported to the relevant authorities. In my outfit, anyone who made/approved a substandard repair to a prime mover would be terminated for negligence, and fast.

[radiosutch]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the original poster's complaint, Flybe/Maybe is probably only slightly above Ryanair in my opinion. (regular flyer avg 70 flts a year so well able to voice an opinion)

How about £55.00 for a so called 'free flight'?
How about cancelling flights and leaving the punters to rebook, maybe days later?
Loads of hidden fees
On their website lots of 'optional'extras boxes ticked so you really have to take care to untick all the 'optional' extras.

I would be very pleased to see Flybe go bust.

[Rainboe]

Well I have to say I have just flown Flybe as a (critical) regular passenger. I would say it was a superb experience. I took what handbaggage I required (free). I had the option to opt out of paying for hold baggage. The flight was exemplary in absolutely superb latest equipment (Embraer 195 or something)- a really super aeroplane with 2/2 seating. They gave what they promised. I didn't expect them to supply what I had not purchased for nothing on pain of throwing a public tantrum! Deal.

[Capetonian]

Crepello

I do disagree with you, mainly because you seem to spend most of your time on this forum in combat mode simply contradicting others with semantics and word play. It's not constructive and I'm not getting into it.

You're not going to get 'my side' of it because it's nobody's business except mine and that of my ex-employer at the time.

As for the Araldite/chewing gum story, I'm not a technician, it wasn't proposed or implemented by me, I was simply a witness to what seemed to me to be an appalling breach of safety and common sense.

[Chesty Morgan]

Radiosutch,

Thankyou for wishing unemployment on me and my 6000 colleagues because you have trouble unticking a few boxes on a website.

[Capetonian]

I would be very pleased to see Flybe go bust.

I would be sorry to see any airline go bust, unless it happened to be one that was a danger to the travelling public. It is not just the employees of the airline who lose their jobs, it has a knock on effect through the supply chain. It also inconveniences the travelling public, reducing choice and giving more power to monopolies.

I hope this was just a flippant remark. There are certain employees who don't deserve their jobs, and personalities in the airline industry whom we'd all like to see getting their come-uppance, no names of course but a certain loud mouthed arrogant Irishman comes to mind, but to wish redundancy on everyone in an airline is quite a different matter.

There are choices in life, mine is to avoid certain airlines for a variety of reasons, but to wish bankruptcy on them is wrong.

[bear11]

I read through this thread in disbelief, I occasionally wander on to the SLF forum and read some people with a loyalty card that seems to entitle them to think they own the airline, but this takes the biscuit.

I have a shiny arse from heavy paxing as opposed to a shiny card from my company paying business or first for me. The paxing gets me from A to B to do my job, and is treated as a means to an end. I read and understand the rules, because it's my job - I don't expect the pimply 18 year old to bend them for me. If I get caught because I didn't read them, I suck it up. Sometimes I get AOGs, diverts, bad weather, ATC delays, etc, but I suck it up and reschedule as best I can, because that's all I can do. I stand in huge checkin/immigration/security queues in airports, but I plan and arrive in good time as that's what I'm paid to do. And I ALWAYS say thank you to the hosties on the way out the aircraft door.

I have a friend who still thinks he can arrive 20 minutes before the flight at any airport and breeze through with everything as hand luggage to his Easyjet or Ryanair flight because he's BUSY. I refuse to fly with him any more when we go on holidays, because by the time he gets off the flight where we're going, his head is a blood-pressure purple from ranting about every single thing in the airport and on the aircraft. And I honestly couldn't argue with at least 80% of what he says.

Why come on pprune and rant about a few kgs in your hold baggage? It IS a pilot's website - admittedly there is an SLF section, but I can see some purpose in having a section where pilots can explain noises an A320 makes on the stand, or why -NGs can seem to land harder than other aircraft. I suppose a post such as this is marginally better than trying to join in on a technical discussion on A330 stall speeds, but what is it trying to achieve, do you think people who work in airports as their job day in and out will be impressed?

[Final 3 Greens]

Bear 11

As you appear not to be aware of the mission statement for the SLF forum, it appears below.

If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your views or questions here? Many of us pilots like to know exactly what you think of us, the job, the airline or anything that you think we should hear about.

The forum for pax to ask questions of pilots is Spectators Gallery, as elicited in the Questions forum statement.

I hope this information may assist you.

[bear11]

And you obviously miss my point entirely, a slave to the modern idea of if you can do it, you should - not whether it will achieve anything, or if it's an intelligent thing to do in the first place. Plus, ignore the middle 2 paragraphs for an encore.

[Final 3 Greens]

Rainboe

They gave what they promised.

That is all one can ask of an airline or any other service provider.

[Final 3 Greens]

Bear 11

This forum was created to generate feedback from pax.

And it does.

[Final 3 Greens]

Chesty Morgan

Whilst I don't wish unemployment on your colleagues and you, I do feel that the poster who wouldn't mind it happening had a few more important gripes than unticking preselected internet buttons, which was added as the last point.

Having said that, having to opt out of optional extras is not particularly good practice in customer care, when dealing with non changegable and/or refundable tickets.

An airline, with whom I fly a lot, introduced this approach to travel insurance.

When I pointed it out to a senior manager, he agreed that it was customer unfriendly and they stopped doing it.

Like it or not, your company has some dissatisfied customers.

It may be wiser to reflect that this type of feedback (however irritating) is probably quite useful as part of the marketing mix and no doubt you have commercial colleagues monitoring this (and other) relevant sources.

[Rainboe]

I became aware by default that certain optional items were being included that I did not wish to have, so it was a simple matter to go back and exclude them. The point remains I found the Flybe flight very pleasant from a customer point of view. On time, excellent equipment, friendly smiling crew. I say this as an employee of a competitor. Whilst one noisy person can berate the airline, I am a regular user of Flybe because of where I live, and the quality of the flights and genuine friendliness of the crew are known factors in my choice of using them.

[Final 3 Greens]

Rainboe

I agree with you that customers will favour providers who do what they say they will do and do it with a smile.

So I can understand why you use Flybe and am pleased that you have good experiences, as travelling is much better when it works that way.

On the subject of good practices in designing websites, because of programmes and projects I managed in the past, I do think, in this instance, that I know rather more than you about the subject. Just because a person with above average IQ and a history of managing highly complex systems can adapt easily does not mean its good practice in usability.

[Boing7117]

I would be very pleased to see Flybe go bust.

Radiosutch you're a disgrace. There should be some sort of questioning of people who join this forum to check for basic levels of intelligence prior to gaining access. Comments like the above are useless, pointless and a waste of my energy typing this. But because you've said you'd like to see me unemployed, along with my other colleagues, you've hit a nerve and I think you're a plank.

Boing7117 - your considered tone suggests to me more than an 'employee' of the airline?

Jaycee, thanks for that - but no, I am in fact simply an employee of FlyBe and nothing more. I sit on the right hand side of Row 1 on the Dash :) - but in a previous life before flying I was involved in a customer facing job dealing various people of differing backgrounds, experiences with varying needs and requirements.

The most important thing I ever learnt was no matter what I think the company I work for stand for, achieve or represent, someone, somewhere will always have a conflict of opinion. Listening, on our part is the only way forward. Doing something about it is the next step, but that's sometimes easier said than done.

Finals 3 Greens / Jaycee - I think there might be a small chance you may well end up using FlyBe again in the future. I hope you do and I hope that your experience next time round is a more pleasant one.

Air Travel isn't a wonderful and stress free way to travel and yes, the airports don't help that, combined with strict requirements from the airlines aswell makes for a trying time regardless of the duration the flight - but it will improve and should get better, more efficient, less hassle. But it will take time.

The problem is that if we allow the setup to become as lax as going to a bus station and hopping on a bus, like it used to be in the US, it doesn't stop people hopping on with a grudge against most of humanity and causing a catastrophe. We're still reeling from that in the aviation industry and will be for some time. That's not a kop out statement - but it's worth remembering why getting on a plane can just seem like such a hassle sometimes!

[frequentflyer2]

Under the Third Package rules, airlines should not have this service on an 'opt-out' basis

This is a part of an e-mail I received from the AUC after I complained about the way in which Flybe now charges for online seat selection during the flight booking process.
Previously when making a booking passengers were asked if they wanted to include seat selection in the process. If they decided to wait until check-in thereby not incurring any charge the booking process simply moved on.
However, recently this has changed. Seats are now pre-selected for each booking and the passenger is asked whether they wish to accept them or change them. But here's the catch - you're charged for seat selection whichever course of action you take. You actually have to opt out of seat selection altogether if you don't want to pay for it amid dire online warnings about not being able to sit beside your travelling companions etc etc.
I like Flybe and fly with them frequently. But I'm not standing for that. Why should passengers pay for a seat automatically allocated to them? I can understand being charged to change from the allocated seat but being charged for a seat I have had no say in selecting is ridiculous. You don't have to pay for an automatic seat allocation in which you have no say at check-in so why at the time of booking?
The Northern Ireland Consumer Council has also received complaints about this change to online seat selection - Flybe is the largest operator at Belfast City. They've told me it should be on a strictly opt in basis.

[Capetonian]

"Seats are now pre-selected for each booking and the passenger is asked whether they wish to accept them or change them. But here's the catch - you're charged for seat selection whichever course of action you take. You actually have to opt out of seat selection altogether if you don't want to pay for it"

Thanks frequentflyer2 :ok:

I noticed this on my last Flybe booking and I thought it was me being a bit thick, as it was late at night and I'd been enjoying some of Stellenbosch's finest wines earlier in the evening. You're right about "dire online warnings about not being able to sit beside your travelling companions etc etc." but as I was travelling on my own I wasn't really bothered. I long ago gave up hope of sitting next to a blonde nympho and now my greatest hope is to have an empty seat next to me!

[TightSlot]

I long ago gave up hope of sitting next to a blonde nympho and now my greatest hope is to have an empty seat next to me!
One of the basic rules of air travel there Capetonian :)


The Blonde Nympho that you observe in the Gate Lounge is always seated on the other aisle, next to a bloke half your age and with twice your money
The Obese guy with B.O. that you observe in the Gate Lounge is always seated next to you.
The prettiest FA always works the other aisle, and takes rest when you're awake, and works when you finally sleep.
The Bar Cart on the other aisle always moves faster.
"Chicken or Beef?" becomes "Chicken?" at your row.
The IFE fails during the only movie that you wanted to see.


There are others, I'm sure.

[Gibon2]

Spot on, TS! Thanks for starting my morning with a laugh.

There are others, I'm sure.

Indeed - surely this important topic deserves its own thread?

[Chesty Morgan]

Final 3 Greens

Whilst I don't wish unemployment on your colleagues and you, I do feel that the poster who wouldn't mind it happening had a few more important gripes than unticking preselected internet buttons, which was added as the last point.

Ok, to address the other points Radiosutch made I went on to the Flybe website. This is a website I have never used before and it took me less than 5 minutes to find all the information that Radiosutch obviously missed. It is easily available and you can even look at it before you start the ticket buying process. I can't be bothered to cut and paste it for him because he couldn't be bothered to try and find it in the first place. However, I will address his points.

How about £55.00 for a so called 'free flight'? - Airport Duty Tax, nothing to do with Flybe. Try the Government.

How about cancelling flights and leaving the punters to rebook, maybe days later? - It doesn't say it would do otherwise.

Loads of hidden fees - Well find them then, it may take a few minutes of effort.

On their website lots of 'optional'extras boxes ticked so you really have to take care to untick all the 'optional' extras. - Oh no! More effort required, unticking.

And to address the OP's original point, again, it makes it perfectly clear on the website, again, which I have never used before but, again, I found in less than a minute.

Now, do we really deserve to be standing in the dole queue?

[Final 3 Greens]

Chesty

You are entitled to your views, but your colleague Boing 7117 posts more intelligently and earns my respect.

[backseatjock]

:ok: Great stuff TS and every single one of those points is true......for me, at least. Still, I continue to live in hope.

[Chesty Morgan]

Final 3 Greens,

I'm not after your respect, I don't need it.

I was trying to point out the ease that information, pertinent to your travel plans, is found. If I can find it on my first visit to a website then I'm sure seasoned travellers, such as yourself, should have no trouble finding it.

If you enter into a contract with an airline then you are expected to follow certain rules. It really is that simple. To come on a public forum and highlight your inability to follow these rules and blame someone else for your failings is a bit daft.

[Final 3 Greens]

Chesty

If you re-read my posts, you will find that I didn't complain about the 'opt out' set up on the website, I commented that it is not good practice, in my opinion, when dealing with non refundable/changeable products or services. I reinforced that opinion with an example of an airline that changed opt out to opt in for travel insurance.

No doubt I would pick up on this, in the highly unlikely event of me booking a ticket with your company, since I am an experienced purchaser of travel services, so that isn't the point, since most travellers are not as experienced as me and may fall foul of this practice.

However, if observing the contract is so important, how come your employer didn't provide the premium services I had paid for? How come the cabin crew were aware, but took no action to report it - or if they did report it, how come Flybe didn't contact me with an apology?

You can't have it both ways.

Reading the various posts from people who say they work for Flybe, Boing 7117 stands out as being a reasonable person.

The rest of you seem to me to have very little concern about your passengers and to be more interested in showing how stupid we are.

[rog747]

most of the airlines who now charge for everything sow what they reap,:ugh:

in the distant past of the decent days of air travel , included in your ticket...
you had seat selection,:ok:
usually a 20kg baggage allowance,:ok: with you being able to pool weight with members travelling with you, :ok:and people were nice and flying was a thrill,:)
and yes, you got a meal usually (whether edible or not lol):p

now you are expected to pay £40 excess if you had an umbrella that will not fit in your carry-on...:confused:
ludricous, but a true example of exactly what the OP is upset about here...
funny how this thread has 5 pages, so thats how emotive you all are!

NOW, personally after 30 years in of a career in aviation (retired now) i hate it :rolleyes:and i will not fly with some penny pinching airline whose staff both on the ground and in the air treat passengers with such distain and adopt no commonsense and jobsworth approaches to so-called terms and conditions...:{
but wait before you start squawking that i am bashing the staff here, no, i am not!
its not the staff's fault, but mangement endorsed rules/regs and bean-counters who think its all about 'choice' and of course, extra bucks...

but frankly it smacks of meaness and its nasty...HENCE the 1000's of internet forum pages just alone here on this site, let alone others such as
'airlinequality.com' et al...

it upsets everyone, the poor staff need to get on with providing 'customer service' (and safety too) and not get everyone in a huff and a tizz when flying now is vile anyway...:rolleyes:

they say no-one is making money?
hmmm well if we back track slightly and start giving passengers back something then slowly they will learn to pay for it,
funny how it seemed to work ok for donkey's years and made the industry as huge as it is now...then its all chipped away and the punters kick off big-style...:confused:
remember not so long ago that Air2000 and Britannia were the BEST charter airlines, now look at the mess they have created.

there is room for low-coast carriers but many of us do not want every airline around including now many blue-chip and mainline airlines to join the cheapo, stack-em high brigade...:bored:

i personally now travel by train as much as possible in the UK, its quicker,
and i can take what i want on the train.(within reason lol):ok:

also i sailed back from NYC on the queen mary 2 for the price of a o/w premium Y ticket and had 6 nights of bliss, yes i have the time but give me that anyday now,:ok:

i am not an old fogey at all, i just like to be treated as a human being with resepct and in the acknowledgement that i have paid for a ticket,
and not treated as the OP said by some snotty dis-interested, unmotivated, and bored, teenage check-in agent...;)

thats where my career in aviation started in 1972, sitting on a check-in desk at LHR terminal 1 and i loved every minute of it...

FlyBe nee Jersey European were a really nice airline with lovely staff and a super reputation for friendlyness when i was involved in their handling at LGW many years ago...

perhaps, as i said earlier, look at back at what made the airline big and bold, and perhaps see what now causes the passengers to kick-off so much and gripe and walk way from the company...

simples? !! lord knows, try it and see??

[Final 3 Greens]

Very well said, Rog747.

[Chesty Morgan]

Final,

I wasn't commenting specifically on situations you've found yourself in previously. My last post was aimed at the OP who, if he'd taken a bit of time to search for it, would have found the information he was sadly lacking.
I apologise if you took it personally.

I do agree with you that "opt-in" choices are far more customer friendly. However, you can pretty much guarantee that some poor soul would forget to opt in to something they need and you would, essentially, end up in a situation similar to the one that befell the OP.

So, no, you can't have it both ways!

As far as your own problem I can't comment from an official point of view. However, the few times that such a problem has been brought to my attention (which is rare because of where I sit) I have made sure that the relevant person or department has been made aware of it, which is about all my cabin crew or I can do.

WRT your final comment, I believe it was Jaycee46 who started this thread and not a Flybe employee.

[Avman]

:ok: Bang on rog747. When you read some of the replies by staff members it's easy to see how they have become brainwashed by a system developed gradually by beancounters over the past 5 years or so. It's a harsh thing to say, but it's a fact. I have been flying as pax regularly for 52 years and I'm appalled at what is happening to the airline industry today. Yes, I know these are hard times; for me that's a good reason to encourage pax to fly your airline and not, as many seem to be doing, be looking elsewhere. I'm lucky in that where I travel from I have multiple choices. I use that choice wisely.

[Solar]

I got as far as Avman's post 23 then lost the will to live but it was this post that struck a chord.
If I'm not mistaken I have recently seen a precheck-in weighing facility at Bristol which I thought thats a good idea and then the catch, it only costs a pound. I thought rip off GB had reached new lows with the plastic bags BHS (for explosive toothpaste) @4 for a pound and the pay for mobile phone chargers plus internet connection charges but that is a new low.
Course it could be that I'm spoiled from traveling in the far east where all of the above where available are free.

[rog747]

dear solar
read my post above matey, puts it all in prosepctive here in the UK

take the time, like i did when i wrote it lol

[rog747]

this is a perfect example of mr and mrs 'nice' and their experience with
flybe!
will they fly with them again, never,
what will they tell their friends. you guess !

these people, probably travel frequently, sound reasonable but have been totally put off by their experience...


quote>
from july 2009 airline equality webpages on flybe pax comments,

Returning from a transatlantic cruise my husband and I were flying back from Southampton to Leeds Bradford this week with Flybe. We had three suitcases (checked in on-line and paid for) and two hand bags, both within all airline hand-baggage size restrictions - oh, but not Flybe. They omit to tell you that their cabin overhead lockers are smaller than any other airline, so any cabin baggage has to be to their own size limits. They would not allow our hand baggage on board. We had to empty everything out and squeeze it all, including one of the bags, into our other suitcases, thus making our hold luggage 14kg overweight - for which we were charged GBP180. We were so distressed, my husband went to try and hire a car. It would have only cost us £86 to take a car all the way home and return it to a local office in Harrogate the next day, but unfortunately they had run out of cars. No surprise there then. We were surrounded by other people also in the same situation. One couple, flying to Belfast were actually advised to empty there hand luggage into black bin liners (provided by flybe ground staff), pay an extra £13 per bag for EMPTY extra baggage, and check in their bin liners as their hand luggage allowance. These would of course fit the required measurement. What a joke. The Flybe staff were rude and unaccomodating - they really could not care one jot how upset we were. Not just us, but lots of other passengers around us, most of whom had been on the same cruise as ourselves. Value for money airline? You've got to be kidding...

end.

ok,
this is what you see on the 'booking page' when you pay for bags etc..
does it mention amout dimensions, NO.
(thats found in the small print)
also, its confusing to me whether 20 kgs baggage allowance is for my hold AND cabin total weight, or not? even i am confused.

>>
Flybe operated flights
Flybe allow a hand baggage allowance of 1 bag weighing up to 10Kg into the aircraft cabin. Cabin bags must fit in the Flybe baggage sizer. Additional, overweight or oversized bags will be checked in at the departure gate and a charge of GBP20.00 may apply
Each bag carried in the aircraft hold will be charged at the prevailing rate at the time of purchase. Flybe offer a discounted, non-refundable rate for the first bag paid for on Flybe.com in advance. The current rate is GBP13.00, or GBP8.99 for the first bag booked on flybe.com. The combined weight of all bags must not exceed 20Kg.
<<

[rog747]

i am not on a Flybe bashing spree, i used to love JEA!


infact my OP was general in all airlines now that adopt such practises and was perfectly inline to reply to the OP.

my 2nd post says it all,
mr and mrs 'nice' book online then they are stitched up, along with other pax well and truly,
and i added what is shown on the Flybe booking page...do you see bag sizes or allowances or a link to such, NO.
their cabin bag size, if crucial to their smaller a/c should be clearly shown,
their sizes are smaller and are not standard for normal carry-on bags.
(by 5 cm)

yes, i found the Flybe baggage sizes and T/C eventually,
but IT IS NOT in the booking page, where it should be.

i just tried to book a flight sou-dbv and it was very hard to get out of paying £6 for an allocated seat i did not ask for, and as i mentioned the baggage allowance on the booking page left me wondering if 20kg was my
total weight allowed for both hold and cabin.

after 30 years in aviation, i'm not an old dodery g** lol i am very pc
user ok...!!!
just my experinces here and i can certainly see why there are 1000's of pages bashing all the lo-co airlines in charges and stitch-ups,

as i said in my Op they sew what they reap...

[Haven't a clue]

WingoWango

I have had a Samsonite wheely bag for about 10 years. It's travelled with me to and from London with Manx, BACon, EMX and for the past two years with FlyBe. It fits happily in the locker and under the aisle seat in front of me (the space under a window seat is considerably reduced due the the curvature of the fusalage). I don't over stuff it, and when I'm travelling onwards long haul with a two bag cabin allowance I bring another smaller bag and the wheely goes in the hold.

The other day I spot new wording on my self printed FlyBe boarding pass advising that oversized hand baggage will be consigned to the hold and a £20 fee may apply. Based on the size of some bags I've seen coming aboard, I thought this was sensible and reasonable.

Just out of curiousity I check the dimensions and discover my faithful bag is perfectly within FlyBe limits for height and depth, but (shock, horror) 2cm over in width. Yet it fits in the locker and under the seat, so who has actually measured the sizes?

Coming through LGW last Thursday I was told to put it in the baggage sizer. It fitted, but stuck out only a teasy wee bit so they let me through...

I looked back at old timetables and discovered that the old standard size was 20" by 15" by 9". 15" equals 38cm, and my bag is 37cm. So either Bombardier rounded the standard down when they designed the plane (unlikely), or someone at FlyBe HQ did. Not fair, methinks. So all of us with our carefully selected cabin bag now fail the size test. And that's sort of thing which generates bad will.

I'd change it for one that fits, but guess what? They don't make a bag 50*35*23cm, they do make one 50*38*23. Doh! :ugh:

[ConstantFlyer]

It's been interesting following this thread. The baggage issue rarely affects me, as I'm fortunate enough to be able to do most of my travelling with hand baggage only. However, just out of interest, I thought I'd find out about other ways of taking a 20kg suitcase. If you're lucky enough to live near a post office, you could check your bag in at the counter and send it to your destination by parcel post. Within the UK, a 20kg bag would cost £14-69. Quite reasonable, I thought. It would be delivered 3-4 days later - fine if you're staying with friends or family and can take your first few days' clothes in your hand luggage. Not so good if you're off on a touring holiday or cruise, though. Sending the same bag to another European country would be a bit pricier, I found: £55-49 by Parcelforce International. Suddenly, the airline charges looked a bit more reasonable. I had a go at checking how much DHL would charge, but found the website too tricky to master, eventually getting a quote of £116 for a 20kg bag to Spain.

This whole undertaking reminded me of my youth, when I used to go off backpacking round the world. Even then I travelled light, and my backpack was rarely large enough to need to be checked in. So how did I get all my souvenirs and acquired belongings (and occasionally dirty washing!) home? Posted it back to my parents. They became used to receiving parcels from Central America, India or wherever. And postage costs from abroad were often much cheaper than from the UK. I once took the Trans-Siberian across Russia, and then posted my coat and jumpers home when I got to - much warmer - China. All the parcels I sent arrived home (though occasionally, after I did!).

[radiosutch]

I don't wish to see Chestymorgan out of work but I don't think you know the strength of feeling about BE in the CI.

The constantly criticise Aurigny. Aurigny is State owned and it obviousy irks them. How come a tiny airline like Aurigny is attacked with such vitriol? Are they maybe seeing their bookings slump? If they criticise Aurigny they are indirectly critical of me as a tax payer. Carry on BE, the more you whinge the more the good folk of Guernsey will use Aurigny.

BE cancel at the drop of a hat. Aurigny will get you there even if it's late. Locals would rather be late than have to rebook on a flight at a later date maybe days later. Aurigny will put on additional flights to clear the backlog, not BE. BE then make a noise about how much better timekeeping they have than Aurigny. Hmm how does that work BE?

They constantly criticise our airport. They claim to be suing Guernsey for so called losses during the fireman's (non) strike. If they do, that will be money out of my pocket. Carry on BE, you're digging your own grave.

They bully other airlines. Blueisland started a service to Paris. Within weeks BE started up a rival service. Bigger faster planes, cheaper fares. Within a few months Blueisland pulled out, couldn't compete. Surprise surprise BE then pulled out. We are left with no direct flights to Paris. Thanks BE !

Aurigny flys to Manchester, all year round. BE steps in with a summer only service in an attempt to bully Aurigny off the route. Aurigny has deeper pockets than Blueislands so this ploy has been unsuccessful. Yet BE are openly they are critical of the local policy of route licencing, which aims to stop this sort of predatory action.

BE are openly critical of the runway and stopped running a jet service to Gatwick. Most locals chose Aurigny with their more modern planes.

The check in staff at Aurigny are in the main far friendlier. I am on first name terms with most (and the cabin crew). They are invariably locals and have been with the firm for donkey's years. (Hello Spike)

Need I say more?

Clear off BE and go fly somewhere else. We don't want you here.

[PAXboy]

Email this morning and it's a classic of telling you that they want to improve things and that it's not their fault that they are un-improving things!

Rewards4All is changing. Be the first to know how.
Make sure you know how to make the most of your reward points
At Flybe we are committed to being open with our customers, we therefore would like to inform you about an upcoming change to the terms and conditions of your Rewards4All account.
[Honest and you know what's coming!]
Over the past two years, over a million passengers have joined Flybe’s Rewards4All scheme making it the fastest growing, as well as the most generous frequent flyer programme in the UK. Thousands of our loyal customers have been rewarded with bonus flights across our network. Also, thousands of Premiercards have been issued allowing free access to our network of executive lounges. Over the coming months, we are planning to add new and exciting ways to spend your points.
[Marketing bull$hit]
In order for Flybe to continue to offer the most generous scheme in the industry we need to make some minor changes to the terms and conditions of the programme. Under the recently introduced IFRS accounting standards, the cost of operating a frequent flyer programme without imposing some form of expiry of points has become prohibitively high. To avoid having to reduce the benefits we offer our most loyal passengers, Flybe Rewards4All points will now expire after 2 years.
[The truth!]

So, who are IFRS and if BE voluntarily introduced them - this change is not the 'fault' of anyone but the carrier!

[shortleg]

IFRS = International Financial Reporting Standards. A quick google suggests it isn't made up...

[G SXTY]

BE are openly critical of the runway and stopped running a jet service to Gatwick. Most locals chose Aurigny with their more modern planes.

I was almost tempted to believe you until that bit. The E195 (brand new jet) could operate into Guernsey, and given some of the loads I've seen on the Dash, I'm sure Flybe would love to use it (as happens in Jersey). The problem is with the airport's infrastructure, and until that's upgraded, the E195 can't get in there.

And as for 'more modern planes', Flybe's Dashes are still coming off the production line. How much more modern do you want?

[baselb]

It makes a lot of sense to enforce separate allowances for hand and hold luggage.

Otherwise I'd turn up at check-in with my 30kg case and no hand luggage, then go collect my 10kg hand luggage from my mate who'd been looking after it while I was checking in.

[Matt101]

And as for 'more modern planes', Flybe's Dashes are still coming off the production line. How much more modern do you want?

Trouble is most people think if it's got big spinny things on the front it can't possibly be new! :}

Well I use Flybe perhaps twice a year so I can't claim to be a regular passenger. However I like the convenience of Southampton to Limoges to see the parents, BE have never let me down, are consistently cheaper and I have had excellent service at every point. (And I preferred using them over my own carrier's staff travel as it was often cheaper and easier!)

Hand baggage size wise I quite happily get my roll aboard in the overhead bins of the Q400. It takes a good weeks worth of clothes so quite what everyone else feels the need to have with them on a regional flight is beyond me.

As to the OP all I can say is whilst it is a shame you felt the experience unecessary, perhaps a more careful perusal of the terms of carriage of BE might have reduced your frustration. The 10kg in hand baggage is a gimme in terms of standards weights. The 20kg you have in the back end is what you are limited to. Simples.

If passengers are more pre occupied with undertaking the miracle of flight for the same price as a Big Mac meal in many cases or a return ticket to London on the train from Bristol at the top end then please don't expect the niceties of a premium carrier at the same time. As MOL would say - very very cheap and very little service - tough - people keep flocking back though.