EK 407 Pilot speaks out

[Not from here]

Emirates pilot in tail strike near-disaster tells his story | Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,25766891-2862,00.html)

Interesting article form the guys on EK 407 would seem that AS has been caught out again !!!!

[Marooned]

HE and his co-pilot were ordered to resign. They were handed pre-prepared letters of resignation when they returned to Emirates headquarters.

Now there must be over 2000 of us who have recently attended 'conferences' that heard that they 'OFFERED' their resignations.

Perhaps Ed et AL will clarify their 'claimed support for the crew' on this incident further.

[Praise Jebus]

I think that support, or lack of it, is now pretty obvious. A nice touch to get all pilots to a meeting to be "personally" lied to..

[Schnowzer]

The press talk crap at the best of times let alone when the contributor has an agenda.

When I did that take-off in Melbourne I had slept 3 1/2 hours in 24 hours

We make our choices and then have to live by them, why not wait for the ATSB report then we'll know what actually happened.

[AQIS Boigu]

I certainly respect the fact that we are all humans and screw up every now and then but in my company every pilot (even if it's a 4-man crew) looks at the load sheet and the RTOW print out and if someone's own calculation is out by 200kg or so he/she is encouraged speak up...(and even if it's the Second Officer)

[Jakedog]

Jakedogs post was found to be a complete windup, and deleted gents. Sorry was away working :cool:

EGGW

[Iver]

Jakedog must be very proud of himself because he is PERFECT all of the time every day. What a joke. Must be fun to fly with old man.

[Kennytheking]

unproffesional display

Jakedog, I see you never make mistakes..............d00s:ugh:

[IdleRetard]

such an unproffesional display by these clowns in Mel Always amusing when a so-called professional cannot even spell the word.

[fatbus]

Jakedog , I'm hoping booze was involved, if not what planet you from mate

[QCM]

"THE pilot at the controls of an Emirates jet that almost crashed at Melbourne Airport has revealed how he saved 275 lives."....
:suspect::confused::suspect::confused:
....when the tabloids become investigation board...
....and the mistake becomes an heroic act....:ugh:

[fourgolds]

Jeeez JakeDog , I hope you are a training Captain so we can all learn from your guaranteed ability to never ever make any error at all. It cetainly will be great to never be under scrutiny. Wow I am so happy EK have you . At least it seems possible for EK to achieve the standard they desire. Excellence !!! , I am so impressed with you.

[Watchdog]

fourgolds - you sure he actually works for EK? :hmm:

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."

[abc1]

No need to be a training captain just follow sop's. Or wasn't that the prime factor for the cause of the incident?

[Kalistan]

Jeez...luckily it was a European skygod....from Mt Olympus? Had it been an African, Turk, Asian or Inuit.....you bigots will be coming down on him/her like a ton of smelly doo doo.

That guy and his f/o screwed up big time; let the damn thing take it rightful course!

[S.F.L.Y]

the pilot revealed: HE had slept for only 3 1/2 hours in the 24 hours before the flight taking off on March 20.


Did he really say so !? Is this true ??

[White Knight]

Trader - there was no 'mechanical failure' up until the tail got smacked 3 times.......

[White Knight]

Gotcha - note to self, read the post thoroughly:ok:

[EKBemused]

I cannot believe that grown up men like you can not accept the fact that what JakeDog said is true.
Yes we all make mistakes on line on a regular basis, but they are addressed in a multi crew flight deck.
These morons were too busy bicthing about every thing iso doing their job.
Thats the case with most of you guys here, but please grow up and accept the fact that the crew did not just make a mistake, they ****** it up big time.
So grow up and do not support people just because they are one of us and not the management.

[White Knight]

I have to agree with you ekbemused - not just a mistake made...

[S.F.L.Y]

I may have missed something but it looks weird to support someone who openly claim having such a big lack of rest... if this is true resignation is not the worst thing that they could have faced.

[Jakedog]

The Facts remain that these clowns came within inches of killing 250 people. Did you ask yourself that if they were so good why did they push back 13 min early. Don't you think that V speeds in the 135-140 range or Flex 70 ish would not have jumped off the PFD and told you something was not right at the start of a 13 hr flt. Those that entertain that this was a simple mistake are scary. I hope like hell my kids don't fly with you..............


Wind up bits trimmed EGGW

[411A]

Those that entertain that this was a simple mistake are scary.

The same type of folk, Jakedog, are at American Airlines...the ones that simply cannot believe that one of 'their own' bicycle-pedeled the rudder, which caused the vertical fin to rapidly depart.

This is called....losing sight of reality altogether and being in a complete state of denial.:ugh:

[IdleRetard]

Thankyou, 411A, that is possibly the most intelligent and relevant thing I have ever seen you post in the ME forum.

Jakedog despite your claim, you don't seem to be offering any kind of particularly clever "bait". I'm guessing you're a reasonably new joiner (not from start date but from attitude - could be wrong though) and as such somewhat, shall we say, unaware due to lack of proper training and proper "indoctrination" at EK.

Chainsaw, I joined nearly 9 years ago. I change handles regularly for security reasons. This handle is dedicated to our Glorious Leader (I thought that was obvious but maybe it isn't) but I do admit that after last night's booze-fueled rubbish it is possibly even more apt. Sorry for that......

99 hours in the previous 30 days. Barely under the legal limit yet not even close to the ''sanity'' limit. I believe the 99hrs was flown prior to the commencement of the event sector, making it roughly 113 for the month (under their extremely dodgy rolling totals scheme).

[chainsaw]

IdleRetard, join date May 2009, with 9 posts:

You're obviously a reasonably new joiner and as such fcuking clueless due to lack of proper training at EK. :confused:

Your join date and 'postometer' seem to suggest that you're a resonably new joiner too, don't you think?

OK IR......thanks! Explanation accepted!:ok:

[B2N2]

Not that I can add anything meaningful to this discussion........
but missing it by 100 tonnes?
No matter what the reason..3/5 hrs sleep whatever you gotta go.
You can't let this slide.

Idleretard (italics for your convenience) you could not have picked a better user name.
Nomen est omen, the name is a sign.
Do yourself a favor and p*ss off.

[mensaboy]

Just to recap the facts.

3.5 hours sleep yes. But why? you have to ask.... not because the pilot was out partying but because he was unable to achieve the required rest, for whatever reason.

99 hours in the previous 30 days. Barely under the legal limit yet not even close to the ''sanity'' limit.

2 pilots with excellent backgrounds and by all accounts good pilots, making such a critical error!

CCQ flying on 3 types, each with COMPLETELY different takeoff and landing characteristics. Coupled with a Rostering Department that does not give a rats ass about ''actual' versus GCAA regulated minimum requirements. (what makes common sense versus the idiotic rules)

Stress levels that have exceeded what should be acceptable for an airline that considers Flight Safety a priority.

4 pilots missing the error, (2 of whom really would have had to be involved in the preflight process to pick up the error)

A change in policy after this accident that does not allow augmenting pilots to do anything of importance prior to, or during the initial phases of the flight. Therefore, the Company acknowledges that things were askew prior to the accident.

Constant and almost unbelievable distractions in the flight deck prior to departure. Hence the 'Company mandated' policy changes that preclude even 'intelligent' and required interuptions to keep the Commander aware of issues that affect his flight.

Forced resignations, even before the preliminary results of the investigation were reached. Hence, TCAS lied about the resignations. (also 'Firings' of other pilots and then their subsequent 'Rehiring'.) Kind of demonstrates the managerial approach to ANY errors we make.

An input error into the laptop and or MCDU.

A salvaged takeoff, albeit by the smallest margin.

A subsequent safe landing under extremely stressful conditions.

Allegedly bitching on the CVR about the Company and the massive and sudden negative changes affecting pilots. A good management team would discuss why pilots are suddenly questioning this airlines direction and it's leadership, because it is quite common nowadays at Emirates Airline.

A company that decrees that pilots should be professional enough to overcome the stresses and distractions of all negative declines in T&C's, yet on the other hand, they send out an email stating that evidence proves that pilots about to go on Leave are more prone to make mistakes. Geeze, the 2 stressors are not even in the same category!

Management led by an individual who truly believes we are his slaves. And just under his control is one man who has sold his soul for a profit and another man who is by all accounts an idiot, yet he elects to wear an EK pilots uniform in spite of the fact, he is not a qualified pilot.

We should sending our fellow colleague (the man unlucky enough to make a mistake which was in large part due to our management clowns) a letter of congratulations for highlighting the obvious and perilous inadequacies of this airline. He might have an agenda but that does not mean he is not morally correct. At the very least, the exposed truths might lead to a safer operation and might even positively affect our T&C's, although, with the likes of our management , that is highly unlikely.

Some people jump on this pilot for what a newspaper article said about HIM saving the flight, yet these same people then state that reporters distort and mislead in their articles, to 'sensationalize' a story. You can't have it both ways.

I am embarassed by the posts of some of my fellow pilots regarding this accident. There but for the Grace of God (or Allah), go you!!!!

[411A]

Hmmm, looks like a company in serious need of an audit of their flight operations department.
I wonder...could that aforementioned audit, were it actually to happen, result in the downgrading of EK, indeed the whole UAE, to FAA category two?:rolleyes:

On second thought, cancel the audit, or even the mention of same.
Still....a few more incidents (or accidents) and the FAA is bound to have a closer look.
I would't look very good to have the USA's welcome mat suddenly withdrawn.:}

[S.F.L.Y]

3.5 hours sleep yes. But why? you have to ask.... not because the pilot was out partying but because he was unable to achieve the required rest, for whatever reason.

Whatever is behind these 3.5 hours of sleep, this is an OBVIOUS reason for not flying. Period.

Now tell me what does the 99 barely legal hours, the excellent background of the pilots, the flight department, the changes of company policy, the forced resignations and the company management have to do with the decision of flying without appropriate rest ? This is an individual decision which has nothing to do with all what you've mentioned. The grown-up individual is the only responsible person for such decisions, whatever is the quality of the company behind it. Don't mix the things.

I doubt EK's policy is to fly with such lack of rest.

[White Knight]

Mensaboy - you miss the obvious. 3.5 hours rest in 24 is unfit to fly and under the terms of the FOM if you are fatigued then you may not fly!!

Also 100 tonnes discrepancy - try following the loadsheet confirmation procedures in the FCOM, it works well!!

Yes, they did a good job of recovering the situation but it was an almighty cock up to start with.. And before you get all arsy - yes, I do make mistakes but I find that the SOPS trap the errors. That's why we have them isn't it??

I'm trying to work out the 3 COMPLETELY different take-off characteristics you waffle on about.. 332,343,345 I find pulling the stick back a bit at 'rotate' works quite well - obviously the heavier she is the more inertia but to say what you did is garbage:rolleyes:

[kennedy]

Just to clarify the Emirates flight duty limits, that's 100 hrs block time in a rolling 28 days. So if you actually start a flight under 100 hrs you can keep on flying as long as they like, any one for a 17.5 hr LA?

The company also went though a phase of saying that bunk time was not included in the 100 hrs!

But in the words of TCAS and the Non-Flying horse

"Fatigue is not a problem in Emirates"

All I'm thankful for is this near accident happened in Oz and the company can't just pay to sweep it under the carpet!

[pool]

Hmmm, looks like a company in serious need of an audit of their flight operations department.
I wonder...could that aforementioned audit, were it actually to happen, result in the downgrading of EK, indeed the whole UAE, to FAA category two?

411A, you're getting better by the days (Alzheimer?)
We're all waiting for the blessing of your FAA, who gives us the shining examples of the likes of ValuJet, Buffalo-commuters and 90 year old grannies as flight attendants who are on board especially "for the passengers' safety" - not to forget yourself as the forerunner of American aviation supremacy.

[White Knight]

Very true aiming point, which is why I point out that following SOP is a good and necessary thing.. Nothing to do with stones and glasshouses and all that BS - suffering a catastrophic failure is one thing, not following SOP is another:ugh:

[S.F.L.Y]

I dare say 99% of pilots at EK have headed off on flights with far far less sleep than they would have preferred for one reason or another and probably on many occassions as well.

99.9% of Emirates pilots would have still gone to work in Melbourne, a downroute station, under similar circumstances

Are you trying to say that 99.9% of EK's pilots would fly with only 3.5 hours of rest within 24 hours (especially after 99h/month)? This is a totally insane statement, as it is unacceptable should it be true or BS.

[White Knight]

I understand what you're saying AP - the holes lining up and all that, and yes we all make mistakes in SOPS from time to time, but for 2 guys to get what is arguably the most important check of flight deck prep wrong, is to put it bluntly - ODD... And a c0ck up of high magnitude.

I'm not saying there aren't other factors involved - but when you sign that techlog and loadsheet it's YOU who bears the responsibility to get it right..

[Instant Hooligan]

Sfly,
While it may not be 99.9% it's probably close and whatever your disbelievement is, it's a reality at Emirates. Flying tired and fatigue management are a constant challenge at this place.

Pool, try this it works wonders for the drivel 411A spews.

This message is hidden because 411A is on your ignore list.

Regards
IH

[canadansk]

A380-800 Driver is correct, the pattern he mentions goes against your body and it is very difficult to be rested. It is probably the hardest sector on the network to adjust to.

[S.F.L.Y]

Guys, having less than 3 hours of rest before a long range flight is a major threat to aviation safety. No matter what the airline is saying about your complaints, you are still exposed as you will be the only one to be held responsible and accountable of flying under such circumstances and believe me, they will know how to remind it to you in due time.

Accepting to fly in these conditions means accepting the responsibilities and the associated risks. Not willing to make that phone call because you want to keep your job is understandable, but you have to keep in mind that this will cost you big responsibilities. In the end you will be the one to accept operating in known unsafe conditions, and your personal reasons for taking that **** will not discharge you.

[GBB]

SFlY,

How about you go and tell the EK management to do something about it?
Flights are daliy with as little rest as possible, time difference huge and at the and of the day somebody will have to fly.
You should try to apply for EK pilot group spokesman position...

[MATMAX]

Gents,
I am just a simple LAE who is surprised that some of you don't know about basic latin : errare humanum est ...
Do the same persons know about Murphy Law ?
Don't you think that the most important is to learn from others mistakes not to do them again ?
It is easy to blame others !
Do you , sometimes , think about the Engineers , Technicians and Mechanics who are working more than 12 hours per day with a temperature more than 50 celsius to make you fly in the best conditions as they can ...?
Brgds.
An ex-EK LAE.

[S.F.L.Y]

SFlY,
How about you go and tell the EK management to do something about it?

How about the directly concerned people?

To me flying with such lack of rest is totally unacceptable and barely professional. I think this major problem should be raised by the majority of the concerned people. But as I said earlier I'm not concerned myself and I'm not judging anyone. I do understand it is a terrible dilemma and I wish good luck to those who will decide to make a point about it. In the mean time I'm not gonna blame those who chose to keep quiet for many reasons I don't understand what they expect from internet...

[S.F.L.Y]

EK's own fatigue study on the Houston route showed that on avg pilots had 6 hours sleep prior to their return leg. Which means they are not fully rested since 8-9 is required.If 6 hours is less than the 8-9 required, what about 3.5? If it's absolutely true that the rostering is heavily contributing to increasing the fatigue it doesn't mean that crews should be 100% discharged of their responsibilities. Anyway the crew did fly with a very low rest time and nobody forced them to do that. Any professional knows how it can affect flight safety and you can't tell me they didn't know that.

So what do pilots do??? Hmmm, keep my job and my family secure, or go flying because every time I have ever gone flying in the past and I was this tired it all worked out.Your clients (which are paying your salaries) are more concerned about safety that your job security. Keep showing them that you prefer to keep your job quietly flying with only 3.5 hours of rest and you will soon find yourself flying empty planes. Empty planes will not pay for your salaries.

In fact you are not keeping your job and family secure, and on top of that you are placing other people's families in unsafe situations. Let's see who is gonna learn the lesson first between EK and AF.

Anyway I'm not directly concerned and don't want to be seen as if I was giving you morale, I'm just sharing my point of view.

Here is some reading for next time you'll a sleepless night:

Fatigued in the Back — AeroSafety World, June 2009 (http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/jun09/cabinfatigue.html)

[S.F.L.Y]

It is up to MANAGEMENT to change that- and unfortunatley they are not likely to. The management might change it, either the hard way or because crews are making a valid point. In the first case crews might be blamed for not having taken preventive actions, knowing they were compromising flight safety.

Management is accountable for flight safety and you have a safety management system which is supposed to assess risks and mitigate them adequately. If these issues are not documented, the management will basically blame crews for not reporting the problem while pretending they didn't know about it. Now if you make the proper reports and that no action is taken you are basically transferring a lot of responsibilities to your management. As they usually don't like it, they might decide to pay more attention to your claim.

Anyway I wish you good luck with this issue.

[S.F.L.Y]

I kid you not, dozens upon dozens of ASRs have been filed about the inadequacies of the Crew rest facility on the 380. We have been operating the 380 for nearly a year now, and guess what? NOTHING has been done about it. Nothing.:ugh::ugh:

I'm not aware neither of the details of such inadequacies nor of the conclusions of your ASRs. The MEL flight wasn't a 380 and beyond the crew rest area the problem is about fatigue and its different causes (including the one you mentioned). Did you guys already clearly and officially reported all these fatigue problems? (sorry to ask but I don't know the details).

I don't know which airline you work for but it must be nirvana.

Not exactly, I'm still waiting for an opportunity to resume flying.

[S.F.L.Y]

You can't because it does not exist. Therin lies the problem. You claim this pilot was dangerous and risking lives. But how is he expected to define fully rested or, better yet, deliniating being safe from not being safe.

You don't need a documentation to understand that 3.5 hours of rest isn't enough to safely conduct a long range flight, don't try to make it as an excuse. These guys were grown up pilots with a full understanding of their condition no matter what the management is saying. It's pretty bad that such a poor management is pushing pilots to fly in these conditions but to me there are no excuses to conscientiously reduce the safety level with passengers on board. It's a dangerous game that pilots are forced to play because of the management as I absolutely understand the need to keep a secured job, but when it goes wrong these poor guys have to assume the consequences of the risks they decided to take.

Knowing the level of experience required to join EK I can't believe pilots can't figure out when it goes beyond reasonable limits just because it's not written in the books.

[Instant Hooligan]

Meanwhile S.F.L.Y back in the real world.
I'm sorry your assertations are noble and worthy but they are also idealistic and un realistic in the real world.

[S.F.L.Y]

I'm sorry your assertations are noble and worthy but they are also idealistic and un realistic in the real world.

Well I think they are realistics. I understand the reasons which are pushing people to accept flying under poor conditions. I also guess they are able to imagine the associated risks. It's sad to say but in the end if anything wrong happen they remain those who could have refused... I know about this real life where you have to compromise all the time and take known risks in order to keep things running, but the counterpart of these risks is that you're the only to be blamed when you fail...

[GBB]

SFLY,

You need a reality check!
Yes, we all know how things should be done in SFLYs perfect world, airline, life... but this is REAL WORLD.
Dont you live in DXB? Dont you know how things are done here?
You know very well that pilots CANT do sh!t about all this, so whats your point?

[S.F.L.Y]

You know very well that pilots CANT do sh!t about all this, so whats your point?

This is exactly what I'm saying, it's the real world and since pilots can't do **** they prefer to stay secured and take decisions which they know are not always the safest, just like driving back from barasti after few drinks or bringing girls home overnight. If you get caught then nobody is to be blamed but you... In the real world when you decide to fly with 3.5 hours of sleep and that you almost kill hundreds of people you end up eating **** and this is NORMAL.

[411A]

Do you , sometimes , think about the Engineers , Technicians and Mechanics who are working more than 12 hours per day with a temperature more than 50 celsius to make you fly in the best conditions as they can ...?
Brgds.
An ex-EK LAE.

Sad to say, MATMAX, few do.
The pilots you see, are mostly prima donnas, and only concerned about themselves
Now, it is quite different in small(er) carriers, as we positively rely on the Ground Engineers to keep our aircraft flying, simply because...no fly, no pay.
Simple as that.
Pilots will bit*h and moan about 90+ hours/month.
Too bad, for when they approached the HR door, they asked for work, and now that they have found it....many times think that the work required is...too hard.
The poor babies.:{
One wonders...when will they actually grow up and do the job for which they were hired in the first place, with minimal complaint.

Yes, I'm in management, and in addition to my management duties, always fly a full line schedule, 95+ hours in the 28 day cycle.
I do not ask my guys to do what I am not prepared to do.
Full stop.
To do otherwise is BS in the extreme.

It therefore would appear that EK has some serious flt ops management issues, which need to be sorted, big time.

I am available...but I suspect they simply could not afford my services.:ugh::E

[poina]

This fatigue excuse is not going to cut it at any airline, especially in this aviation environment. The dip****s that schedule are the ones who should share the blame but then they're not pullin the big bucks. When you're tired is the time to suck it the f@ck up, go slow, double check, and dream of early retirement.

[411A]

This fatigue excuse is not going to cut it at any airline, especially in this aviation environment. The dip****s that schedule are the ones who should share the blame but then they're not pullin the big bucks. When you're tired is the time to suck it the f@ck up, go slow, double check, and dream of early retirement.

Yup, so very true.

The prima donnas can dream on...it ain't gonna change anytime soon, especially in the middle east.
Besides, these ultra-long flights operate with an augmented or double crew, so therefore, the 'fatigue issue', in managements eyes, is non-existant.
Can't sleep on the airplane?
Tough luck.

[allaru]

SFLY..
Your correct in theory, if fatigued go sick, however in reality it hardly happens, there are so many flights now that are totally inadequate in terms of rest that if you went sick every time you were fatigued you'd hardly go to work.

I can't recall anyone ever having gone sick down route because of fatigue.

As for safety reports regarding fatigue, most of us gave up years ago submitting any kind of safety report unless the QAR demanded it, sad, dangerous, irresponsible, yes but thats the way it is. Safety reports at EK have been ignored for years.

[fatbus]

you put an ASR in for fatigue or lack of sleep downroute you are amitting to not being fit for the flt you just did.

as aready said its great in theory but....

[777-200LR]

Just seen a photo of ERG leaving MEL via PER on its was to Toulouse.

Photos: Airbus A340-541 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Emirates/Airbus-A340-541/1553965/L/)

777-200LR

[airbus757]

It is perfectly legal to operate with only 3.5 hours of sleep. The rule does not say sleep, it says prone rest. So the question is did he get 8 hours of prone rest not did he get 8 hours of sleep.

If Mensaboy`s data is correct, then the article was talking about sleep. If that is the case then we cannot make a judgment because we don`t have all the info.

S.F.L.Y. Please accept some friendy advise. I am not sure where you are in your career but, If you don`t learn to bend the rules you will not last as a professional pilot. This is true for a beaver on floats and it is true for a 345 on a ULR. The trick is to learn the ones that can be bent and the ones that can`t.

By the way, the rule that was bent (broken) regarding the confirmation of performance figures is one of the ones that cannot be broken. On the other hand I have in the past broken the rule about checking in 1 hour to departure.;)

7.

[S.F.L.Y]

It is perfectly legal to operate with only 3.5 hours of sleep. The rule does not say sleep, it says prone rest. So the question is did he get 8 hours of prone rest not did he get 8 hours of sleep.

If Mensaboy`s data is correct, then the article was talking about sleep. If that is the case then we cannot make a judgment because we don`t have all the info.

Come on, the guy himself is now emphasizing how exhausted he was. How rested can you be with only 3.5 hours of sleep and 99 hours in your legs during the past month? We are talking about a pretended major airline not a third category operator with a tight budget.

If you don`t learn to bend the rules you will not last as a professional pilot. This is true for a beaver on floats and it is true for a 345 on a ULR. The trick is to learn the ones that can be bent and the ones that can`t

Please tell me (according to you ) how bendable are the resting rules for ULR operations? By the way tell me for which airline you are flying...

It is not a matter of rules which can be bent/broken, it's a matter of common sense. We are talking about flight safety, who cares about the rules? Do you think people would feel better knowing they almost died being "within the rules"?

[fatbus]

Common sense then says bookoff if you are not fit don't just do the flt and talk about it afterwards. The problem is how many guys bookoff, not very many. The big ? is why dont they bookoff.

[airbus757]

Come on, the guy himself is now emphasizing how exhausted he was. How rested can you be with only 3.5 hours of sleep and 99 hours in your legs during the past month? We are talking about a pretended major airline not a third category operator with a tight budget.



There is one reality when you are an airline pilot. There are times when you go to work tired or fatigued. You have to understand that it happens at ALL airlines. It is a fact of life and we have to deal with it. Not sure what you mean by a pretended airline, but the last time I looked EK had more than a hundred widebody aircraft. I guess they are pretending to pay Boeing and Airbus for them.

Please tell me (according to you ) how bendable are the resting rules for ULR operations? By the way tell me for which airline you are flying...

Let's say you are required to get 8 hours of uninterupted prone rest before a duty. You being a true pro go to bed 8 hours before your wakeup time. During the rest you Mum calls and has a 5 minute chat with you. According to the rules you now cannot do your duty. What would you do? Call in sick or "bend the rules". If you call sick then you are not cut out for this business, simple. By the way it is not relavant which airline I work for.

It is not a matter of rules which can be bent/broken, it's a matter of common sense. We are talking about flight safety, who cares about the rules? Do you think people would feel better knowing they almost died being "within the rules"?

I don't think the airline cares about how people feel. They do care about what people do. If they demand something from the airline and are willing to pay for it, the airline will do it. It is a business after all.

[GBB]

SFLY,

You said your self that directly concerned people should do something about it... didnt you?
So why you bother with teaching people what they should be doing? You are NOT directly concerned!
They are all BIG boys/girls and most likely know better.
Are you like Dr. Phill or something?

[S.F.L.Y]

SFLY,
So why you bother with teaching people what they should be doing? You are NOT directly concerned! What I said is common sense which applies to any professional and has nothing specific to that particular case. I'm not teaching anything to anyone while if I'm not concerned as an EK crew I'm still concerned as a client.

3.5 hours of sleep has nothing to do with a 5 min lack of rest, especially when you did 100 hours during the past month. It will definitely affect human performance thus safety. I know exactly what it means as I went through it myself until I get stopped by a medical condition resulting from this situation. I learned my lesson and had nobody else to blame but me.

GBB, apart barking on people what is your contribution?

[GBB]

You just cant get it, can you?
You thought that EK pilots didnt know about all that? Whats right and whats wrong?
I dont know.. Maybe you live in some sorft of perfect world and its very hard for you to understand how EK or any other pilot can go for a flight with 3.5h of sleep.

Since you are so concerned as a CLIENT... Why dont you bring it up to the attention of EK management, since pilots do NOT make up rules and have very little to say at companies such a EK.
The other option for concerend CLIENTS such as your self would be to go straight to GCAA.
EK management do love and care about their customers very much, so if you are by any chance a mighty gold card holder just give it a shoot...

[airbus757]

S.F.L.Y. Stop clinging to 3.5 hours. Can't you see that there is more to it than that.

7

[Miles Gustaph]

Airbus 757, I'm just more than a little concerned over your assertion that there are rules to be broken... just for clarification, which airline do you work for that advocates that?

Which National Airworthiness Authority that issued your license will support that attitude? and

How would you justify breaking the rules to passengers/families in an accident?

I'm asking as I'm just curious because where I grew up we followed the rules because it's professional and it stops people dieing, but I'm always open minded to new techniques and methods.

[Watchdog]

yeah, I agree Miles...
I don't "BEND" any rules - oh and to Airbus 757 I've been a professional pilot for 23 years - nobody has fired me yet :confused:

[S.F.L.Y]

You just cant get it, can you?

Maybe I'll get it the day you'll learn how to address people in a decent manner, I'm not your wife.

[airbus757]

OK guys lets see if I can explain. Lets say you are the PF and you are decending through 10000 ft. One of the things that the rules or SOPs says is that the PNF will switch on the landing lights. For whatever reason it was missed. As PF you notice, so you can either ask him to do it, or maybe you just wink politely and reach up and switch it on yourself. No harm no foul and you both realise it was not strickly by the book. That is the kind of rule bending I am talking about. I'm quite sure a passenger or for that matter the cheif Pilot would have no concerns.

Now lets say you continue your descent and realise you are high so you disregard company policy and intentionaly keep your speed at 310 kts to help get the plane onto profile.(one of the rules you should not bend). Then a flock of birds comes along and takes out the left roller. During the investigation I have a strong feeling the Chief will not say much about the lights, but will most likely have a word or two to say about the 310 kts.

Just one more example of what I am talking about. At our company we order the final fuel load well after the point where Passengers begin boarding. It is a rule that helps us optimise our fuel loads. But, if you are in Kuwait this does not work because we cannot refuel while passengers are on board. So in order to keep the schedule we order the fuel as soon as we get there so fueling can finish and we can start boarding passengers. So In order to keep the flights moving on time and keep it safe we sometimes have to bend the rules.

As for anyone who says they have been 100% by the book I would have to call BS. We have to assess and manage each issue that comes accross our "desk". Sometimes after carefull thought you can realise that a certain rule must be broken in order to assure the safe operation of the flight. As I stated before the trick is to use your experience and learn what can get bent and what can not.

I am in no way advocating the attitude that pilots should go around and disregard rules and procedures, quite the contrary. But we do have to Bend sometimes in order to operate.

I could name many more but you get the idea.

7.

[S.F.L.Y]

During the investigation I have a strong feeling the Chief will not say much about the lights, but will most likely have a word or two to say about the 310 kts.

And do you think that extensively breaking the rules about resting time would be assimilated to the landing lights stuff?

Anyway the rules are not everything, SOPs can't predict every situations and its not what they are made for. As a commander you have the responsibility to evaluate if the flight can be conducted safely which includes your physical condition. As such I'd say that deliberately flying exhausted, whatever the rule is, would engage your responsibility should anything wrong happen. I did it myself many times until it went wrong. I'm just sharing my point of view without giving any morale :8

[expat400]

Well, I have only been flying for 28 years but I have yet to complete a flight without braking (or bending) any rule.

I take my hat off for all of you who can fly completely according to the rules.

[airbus757]

And do you think that extensively breaking the rules about resting time would be assimilated to the landing lights stuff?


No. What I am saying is that there is a line between 1. getting out of bed to have a slash and going back to bed, and 2. staying up all night playing cards with your buddies.

One is obviously acceptable and one is not. We all determine for ourselves where that line is, and if it gets crossed then we don't go to work.

The statement from the pilot regarding the amount of sleep he got is not in and of itself declaring that he was fatigued. He was most likely not fatigued as was indicated by the initial reports from the Austailian authorities.

Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to have the opinion that because his sleep was not optimal that he is somehow guilty of showing up for work in a state that is unfit for duty. I submit that this is probably not the case.

7.

[Miles Gustaph]

Some of the comments above are either a damming indictment of Airman-ship in the current market-place or a slap in the face for CRM, Human Factors, feedback reporting, simulator training, line training, check test rides and lets not forget anonymous reporting to the national airworthiness authorities.

Its such a shame some of these attitudes exist, still in aviation; since the 1970's there has been so much work done to reduce accident rates, make reporting possible for any reason, and it's paid off, our accident rates are dropping.

Yet if you believe some of the PPruNE threads moral is low among aircrew, they are tired and pressured, indeed this can be seen by the EK407 incident and attitudes surrounding it.

It is times like this when you MUST make sure that you follow procedures, if they are wrong and don't work report them, get them changed...

...or should we be looking at a comparison with cars and drink driving?
30 years ago it was ok if you were careful, stuck to the back lanes.... now it's socially wrong, people who drink drive are unacceptable and bad people, killers... but you still get that hard-core who know better, don't care and will jeopardize the lives of others because of their selfish attitudes, like some of the comments above that stigmatize the whole industry when the vast majority of us are good professional people who do their jobs properly withing the bounds of rules & regulations.

[snaproll3480]

411A,

6500+ posts, does your company know how much time you spend here rather than "managing"? I doubt it but that's just typical management waste. If it's your free time, then you need to get your priorities straight. Don't bother responding, I won't be arguing.

[Watchdog]

Permit me to clarify my post, as I presumed we are talking about a deliberate breaking or "bending" of rules, not a slip or error causing a non compliance.

I cant imagine anyone can get through a month without some "oops's" but they are usually trapped or inconsequential. :)

[tbaylx]

I would respectfully suggest that anyone who thinks that its perfectly reasonable for pilots to always have the legal 8 hours of prone rest and sleep before a flight has never flown ULH operations across multiple timezones on a regular basis. There are days where you just can't sleep and 4 hours is all you get.

You want to know which airline and authority are aware of this and support it? Well EK and GCAA for one, HK and Cathay for another by the sounds of it, but i suspect most other airlines flying ULH ops are the same. A recent fatigue study on EK's Houston trip found the average amount of sleep was 6 hours before the flight, some less some more. The 48 hour layover Houston is now hardly our most fatiguing pairing. A little background on that pairing, it was operated as a 24 hour layover for months before they finally changed it to 48 after many many safety reports. I can guarantee that when it was 24 hours the guys were not getting an average of 6 hours. And that study was done when guys were flying 70-75 hours a month. Ek has now moved the bar and is working the pilots 95 hours a month, the aircraft keep coming but little to no hiring. That will hardly improve the situation.

Then it comes to rostering practices. Following your Houston you get a few days off in Dubai then you get sent to Australia to Manilla. Now your body clock is right screwed up, you think all pilots are well rested on those flights? ULH operations in a modern airline is a new thing. There is little data and airlines are trying to make the most money they can so they roster people to the maximums allowable under FTL limitations that were designed for shorter operations with less time zone crossings.
Say what you want about fatigue and calling sick, if every pilot who did not get rest before a flight reported sick the airline would cease to operate...at least the long haul stuff. It's not going to happen, and i can guarantee you the airlines won't be the ones pushing towards a change in the FTL regulations.

Tim Clark of Emirates was on record a few years ago, speculating about the 380 operations and suggesting he would like to see an operation where the crew don't layover at all, but merely remain on the aircraft and get their rest in bunks sort of like a cruise ship. That is the sort of mentality you are dealing with in most airline management.

There have been several accidents attributed to lack of adequate rest and inadequate regulations. Look at MK in Halifax if you want to see what EK at Melbourne could have been if the terrain had been different. It's going to take several accidents that fatigue can be identified as one of the main causes before there is any incentive to change. Either that or a suddenly enlightened EU or US authority forcing proper FTL rules on the airlines.

One thing for sure, the airlines aren't going to do it. Pilots, lacking a world wide association, do not have the ability by making individual efforts to change this from within. They will merely put themselves out of work by calling sick when they are fatigued. There are days where its obvious you can't fly, but most of the time ULH pilots are operating in a semi fatigued state and managing the situation best they can. Sometimes stuff gets by despite their best efforts and something like MEL happens. Then the rest of us predatory bastards jump on our soapbox on PPRune and try and justify why it could never happen to us because we would never make that kind of error and lack of judgement and crucify the pilot who did. Some things never change.

As a footnote, if you think what the pilots deal with is bad you should see what the flight attendants have to do. They are under different rostering limitations and routinely fly 110+ hours a month with alot less days off. The last crew that had the audacity to grab a few minutes sleep in a jump seat during a quiet momnet were unfortunately filmed by a passenger and EK promptly fired the offending flight attendants.

If you don't like the face of modern aviation you have 2 choices. Don't fly or start lobbying your local government to do something about it. Don't expect the pilots, who are too busy climbing over each other for jobs to be able to make any sort of meaningful change from within.

[ekpilot]

Be careful what you read on an open forum guys. Heard from very good source that the article being discussed here openly has never been done and that the reporter contacted the source and NEVER was authorized to publish anything. As professional Pilots it would be the least to wait for the results of the FULL investigation before passing comments on facts and events that we are not fully aware of. Be careful when you Assume that you know. There is a human factor behind this accident. We fly airplanes and we are all exposed to some kind of risks. Some people need to sell newspapers to pay for their bills and are willing to bend the rules before they publish crap... I read a lot of crap in newspapers every day. In respect to our colleague the least we could do is let the investigation be the judge.

Keep Discovering and be careful out there:ok:

[ferris]

Heard from very good source that the article being discussed here openly has never been done Why dont you try and click on the link? I think you will find that the website, and indeed, that newspaper, do exist. The editorial from that newspaper on that day commented on that very story.

So, I'm not sure what your agenda is, but the article definitely exists. Further, if it is untrue, then I'm sure EK (or the pilot) has the usual remedies available to it/them.

Whether EK (or whoever you are referring to) "authorized" the publishing of the article is irrelevant. Perhaps there is a failure to understand how the press operate in a free society?

[kingpost]

Gents

Lets be honest with ourselves, EK are using flight duty profiles and limitations that low cost operators use in Europe, the difference is they never factored in the fact that EK pilots don't sleep at home every night!!

[High 6]

Great post Tbaylx, I agree with your sentiments. Undoubtedly fatigue is rapidly becoming the number one aviation safety issue these days due to airlines demanding more aircraft to fly longer pairings.

As stated, pilots are busy trying to preserve jobs and feed families, airline management are trying to squeeze every penny out of the operation and manufacturers will design the kit to fly as long as you want to wherever you want. The only people in the industry that should have the knowledge, time and indeed the responsibility to set the bar are the regulators.

Whether it is done through ICAO or FAA/JAA/CAA someone needs to bite the bullet on this, do a full comprehensive study and analysis using the science available through the likes of Kinetiq or similar organisations, and make realistic crew rest regulations that only have safety and pilot performance as their criteria.

That's me done for the day, off to bed to prepare for my next ULR, honey have you seen the box of sleeping tablets??

[Miles Gustaph]

High 6.... I'll second that, nicely said :ok:

[QTRminator]

Very interesting to read this thread, but I can't help to notice that the 2 people arguing hardest against the pilots, rather than to see the whole picture were the crew is just one piece in a big puzzle, are not employed by EK. SFLY is a customer and has probably no training in CRM so I guess his ignorance is excused and 411 is not familiar with ULR, correct me if I'm wrong. And then we have some Supermen who never makes any mistakes. Please guys listen to the other posts, you might learn something.
When there is an accident there are always many, many factors involved. The system should make it easier for the pilots to take the safe decisions not the other way around. The easiest way out is just to blame the pilots, make them resign and then... problem solved. The professional approach would be to look at all the factors involved and try to change things in the operations in order to try and prevent it from happening again.

[S.F.L.Y]

QTRminator I do have some CRM training... I'm just not flying for EK apart being a customer.

What I was trying to say is a very basic thing. Whatever the reasons for which a pilot decides to fly with improper rest, as long as he is conscious of his condition, he's still the one to take the decision, be it within the rules or not.

When it comes to evaluate our condition we are most often left alone. As a professional we are supposed to take the right decisions as many people are relying on us. It still happen that we decide to go beyond the rules (as I did myself) and we can only pray for being out of troubles. Sadly, when **** happens, we can't escape our share of responsibility as at some point we had the decision in our hands... whatever pushed us into that direction.

I used to fly military aircraft and can remember a large amount of incident/accident at the end of long lasting exercises on the way back home...

[Unreal]

Having recently joined V Australia after experiencing several other
airline preflight proceedures all I can say is this-

Firstly, the V Australia SOP's are basically Emirates, being established
by mainly ex-Emirate trainers, who know no better.

The entire process is compressed into the last few minutes before
push-back with an idiotic scramble to set up performance and
navigation numbers all mixed together.

This creates chaos and time pressures on the crew to complete
the process, followed by an extensive pre-start checklist before
pushback, the workload in these mad minutes is ridiculous.

If either UAE or Australian regulators had a clue they would demand
modification of these proceedures, as I believe this process was
a definite causal factor in the MEL accident.

The tiredness factor is subject to conjecture, but the proceedures
before start are clearly visible to even an inexperienced regulator.

Sadly the pilots involved are now victims of a badly thought out
pre-start process that has crossed the ocean to V Australia as well.

[chainsaw]

Unreal,

As you've recently joined V Australia, I'd have thought that you'd be aware of the Australian regulator's (CASA's) Industry Complaints Commissioner, and that if you have a compliant (which you obviously do have) then here are a number of ways that you can let CASA know about it, as follows:

Online: via the online form
Phone: +61 2 6217 1717
Email: [email protected]
Fax: +61 2 6217 1444
Mail: GPO Box 2005, Canberra, ACT 2601, AUSTRALIA

If you want to make a confidential report on a matter affecting aviation safety, you can also ring the CASA hotline 1800 074 737. :ok:

See: Civil Aviation Safety Authority - CASA Industry Complaints Commissioner (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:816318462:pc=PC_92966)

And 'no', I don't work for CASA.

[ernestkgann]

Unreal, which airlines have you worked for and how would you change the cockpit prep to be safer and more efficient?

[kingpost]

Unreal

For your information both airlines use the manufacturers procedures - why the moan?

[dunerider]

Unreal,

Which part of the EK process do you specifically disagree with? Surely the
management at Emirates, which come from many diverse and safe airlines would have changed the process if they had an issue with it. I believe CX follows a similar process. I have never had an issue with the SOP process and try to not allow scheduling pressures to ever interfere with this crucial procedure. Now mistakes caused by fatigue are another issue.

[Fart Master]

Funny, I don't find it an 'idiotic scramble'. It's called time management, if you leave a couple of minutes late, then so be it. Taxy times can vary on a normal day by up to 30 mins for example, what's an extra minute or two.

An extensive pre-start check list???? Were you flying for the same EK I am?

Try BA, they don't get the final figures until they are taxying out.........

You just sound plain pi**ed off with your job:confused:

[EGGW]

To be fair to Unreal. When I came over from da bus, my 1st thoughts were that the last 5 mins prior to pushback on the T7, were rather manic compared to the Bus. Everything is compressed somewhat. But after a few years, its easier, and time management takes over like others have said.

Check your stress levels Unreal, is it the right job 4u at Voz??

EGGW

[Wiley]

Unreal, after reading your first post, I think you chose a particularly apt user name.

[Kanga1]

Unreal left CX to spend his final couple of years flying back home in Oz. Since joining VA he has done nothing but moan about the ex EK trainers and the VA SOPs. It's hard to adapt to change when you are old.

[Tiburon peligroso]

411A

The poor babies.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif
One wonders...when will they actually grow up and do the job for which they were hired in the first place, with minimal complaint.

Very intellectual statement for a manager!

Yes, I'm in management, and in addition to my management duties, always fly a full line schedule, 95+ hours in the 28 day cycle.
I do not ask my guys to do what I am not prepared to do.
Full stop.

And I'm sure you're doing a fine job! But it does sound a little far fetched. Guess working for a Mickey Mouse outfit it could be possible! And nice to see you lead from the front. Your men must look up to you with love in their eyes.

To do otherwise is BS in the extreme.

Bit like your post!

It therefore would appear that EK has some serious flt ops management issues, which need to be sorted, big time.


Now that would be none of your business.

I am available...but I suspect they simply could not afford my services.:ugh:http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

You would be too busy managing your little company, flying those 95+ hrs, leading your guys from the front and posting another 6500 crappy posts on pp in business hours!

Please go back to management school, and try and pass this time!

[poina]

As far as I'm concerned, the only people who have a right to bitch about fatigue are the long haul guys who have done it. My last 10 years at Saudia were on the MD-11, and that was a great gig. Always double crew with a crew rest module, first class all the way. Even with all the amenities, my ass was still dragging. I feel sorry for the Emirates guys as some time you just CAN'T rest. There is no solution and it's not gonna change, that's the depressing part.

[Payscale]

I doubt the goy ever gave and interview annonymoursly (how the hell to you spell that!)... If that was what he wanted, better to to it seriously and not to a 3rd rate rag.

To all the super pprune pilots with loads of MS flight sim ULR time. Reality is different. In 20 years of flying, 10 of which is longhaul, I can not even count the times I have checked in nackered. It goes with the job. I have never heard of anyone calling Dubai saying, Sorry mate, be a darling and delay the flight by 5 hours, I need some more rest... Just doesnt happen!

Just slow down and depart 10 min later!!

If EK didnt give incentives to the stations with least delays, maybe that would be one less guy pushing for an ontime departure

[tbaylx]

411a, has been shown the red card from this thread :=

EGGW

[S.F.L.Y]

the only people who have a right to bitch about fatigue are the long haul guys who have done itThinking that only long haul pilots can get fatigued doesn't seems right to me. I would like to mention some discreet and humble guys who are still conducting medevac flights under conditions you can't imagine. At 3AM, freezing for 2 hours in an old piper Cheyenne waiting for the medical staff to bring back a kidney from the hospital before flying the next leg with some nice single pilot night NDB procedure and without knowing when they'll get some rest.

I was sometime helping a friend used to do these flights, flying with him or just helping him to prepare the aircraft. One night he felt asleep on his wheel while towing the plane and we both went out of the taxiway... 15 mins later he was taking of for a 6 hours trip with underpaid foreign medical staff, all working hard at saving somebody's life. 2 years ago another friend of mine lost his life with 4 doctors on board, hitting end of runway trees during a late departure. This was one of the rare occasions their remarkable job was noticed in the newspapers.

This is not long haul flights but at the end of the day when you are waking up drinking 2 red bulls and can't copy a freq without asking ATC to repeat it, I think there is a threat to flight safety, and I used to call it fatigue.

[NO LAND 3]

SFLY:

Been there, done that and more besides.
ULR is more fatiguing.

As opposed to tiring.

[White Knight]

tbaylx - are you eggw too??????

Nope, but I can post anywhere i want, hahaaa. 411a lost the plot last night.

EGGW

[tbaylx]

Not last i checked....i just had a little rant at 411a over his now deleted post.

[White Knight]

Shame - sounds like I missed an interesting rant:}

[Kamelchaser]

Between flying 95 hours a month, doing a (self admitted) marvelous job in management, having an opinion on just about everything, playing the cello, designing plastic hip joints and discovering new cures for cancer, I'm just not sure where 411A gets the spare time to post his 6,500+ missives.

Oh..slight thread drift.

My bad.

Bygones.

I withdraw that statement your honour.

[QTRminator]

SFLY,
Am I missing something here?
First you criticise these EK guys who got too little sleep before that MEL-flight and say that it´s up to the pilot to say no if he feels he didn´t get enough rest and you are neglecting the responsibility of the company to provide a safe environment and guidelines to mitigate problems...and now...ET TU SFLY!...
You were involved in an operation were your fellow pilot fell asleep at the controls, so were was your assertiveness at that time, why didn´t you speak up earlier? Didn´t you feel that you, the crew, didn´t have enough rest before that flight?

[S.F.L.Y]

QTRminator:
I think you misread me. I never blamed the MEL crew, I'm just saying that I feel disturbed when I hear the captain now complaining about his lack of sleep while he was less concerned about it before the beginning of his flight. Again, I'm not blaming anybody, but I feel disturbed when I hear people who are responsible of hundreds of lives proudly claiming in the papers that they were barely fit to fly.

Regarding my friend I wasn't part of the crew, I was just trying my best to help him before his flight. He was the only available pilot to do the flight, knowing it was a life and death matter. It's a shame he had to fly under such circumstances for as little as $1500 a month and I'm the first to tell you that the company must provide adequate resting conditions to its crews, this applies to EK of course. Having said that, I know my friend is totally assuming his decisions and that he wouldn't go to the papers to make such statements.

[Payscale]

SFLY... appreciate your concern but, when all comes to all, it must be hard for someone not actively flying ULR or short for that matter to imagine what its like and when to say STOP. I know the guys and have spoken to then after the incident. Dont think he did and interview though. Just some back room journalist trying to break a story.

[fo4ever]

Lets put an end to this post.

I know for a fact that the Captain did not do an interview for this particular article and that none of the crew decided to break any silence. They have been living quietly since the accident trying to move on.

It is not documented where the fatigue and rest issues in the article is from and whether that has been said or not.

The only thing for sure is that the facts are only known to the crew and the ATSB whom are still working on the report. Until that has been released no one knows what has been said and done.

Also ask yourself this question. Have you ever done a T/O in the middle of the night with a full tank of gas and full cabin thinking "damn I feel pretty crap right now"? at the same time you felt OK when you checked in?