Guys, Don't Do it.

[jabbejokker]

This [airline] industry isn't worth your time.

The conditions are getting worse every year, you won't get a return on your investment whithin a reasonable time, there is no more glory, it's boring, you won't see your family, you wont have job security, you will lose contact with you family and freinds, you will age faster, if you get fired or furloughed you will have to start all over again at another company.

Sorry to break it to you guys but someone has to. I'm currently employed with a decent airline and have been for two years and i still regret my choice. The main arguments you will hear following this thread are:

"I do it for the love of flying"

Bull****!

You thought you were going to get paid and treated right and now all you have left is this piss-excuse to prevent yourself from jumping out the window!
F15's are fun, Cubs are fun but cruising in a Airbus for 6 hours is as interesting as staring out the window on a rainy day!

"The sunsets are nice"

But they are nicer if seen from the beach with a beer and a pretty girl. Also sunrises pale in comparison to seeing a smile on your childs face when your HOME.


My advice? Do something else that is fun but also rewarding. Don't beleive it when people say that there is nothing else out there for them. The options are plenty and with the time, effort and money you would spend on an airline carreer you could build a much better life elsewhere.

[FuturePilot79]

So what are you going to do now?!

[jabbejokker]

I'm working on another degree and dreaming of better days.

[FuturePilot79]

In a completely unrelated field?

[greenslopes]

A good many of us feel the same, and here's the pinch...we are well paid for what we do. When you finish your degree and try and get a job look at how poorly you are remunerated.
Flying affords me a lifestyle, yes I agree it sucks and I'm about to head off on a six day pattern of back of the clock.

Still it's great to have a job and I still love the flying. I took a year off and watched every aircraft fly overhead and wanted back.

Sitting in an office 40 Hrs per week is not nearly as rewarding as you may believe.

[jabbejokker]

Yes, I would like to finish with a JD.

[Jumbo744]

I'm doing it, not gonna stop, I love it. I don't see myself doing anything else, and I've done lots of things before. Come on guys, stop being so negative.

[pipertommy]

The grass is always greener on the otherside!! Not matter what you do for a living

[jabbejokker]

Yeah, but when you realize that you can't pay off your loans; the grass can be brown on the other side and still look good when you don't have any yourself!

[cjd_a320]

Like any other investment, timing is key.

There will be a time "to do it"...

Just not during the largest Deflationary period the aviation world is going to experience in its entire history...
:)

[EpsilonVaz]

Love it and wouldn't trade it for any other job. Each to their own I guess :ok:.

[Aerouk]

You make a fair point, but it deppends on the persons personal circumstances.

I remember a CFI (he was a training captain for BA Express at the time) asking me if I was thinking about going commercial and when I said no his response was "Oh good... it's much better as a hobby, I would keep it that way". Over the years this opinion has been very common.

It's always good seeing businessmen, lawyers, doctors etc. turning up to a flying club, getting into the seat of their own aircraft and taking their family for lunch in Oban... just enjoying the flying.

However... I've also met commercial pilots that can't believe they're getting paid to do their hobby; who are stunned by the incredible views they see almost everyday all over the world.

It's easy to sit in your position and comment on what you have experienced, but for others the thought of working at a desk in some boring company is a killer! I would hate to live my life thinking "What if..."

It's a hard decision, but I think regardless of the decision student pilots must at all costs try and avoid getting themselves into debt problems because as soon as that happens you'll be in the brown stuff for a very long time. Flying isn't fun when you have bailiffs and banks knocking on your door every week.

[ea340]

jabbejokker
Goodluck with your new career. This not for everyone

[KAG]

there is no more glory, it's boring, you won't see your family, you wont have job security, you will lose contact with you family and freinds

True. Jabbejokker is right to inform anyone ready to invest their $$$$ in aviation training.

Some flying jobs are still very interesting.

Aerobatics
Survey
air force
bush/float
and any special flying involving pilots in the flightdeck are still worth it.

[Kelly Hopper]

And flying "the big jet" is the easiest, safest, and most boring job in the industry.
Anyone with very average flying skills can make it as captain.

Thats still a rather interesting and somewhat rewarding job, but airlines pilots are not aviator anymore. They are drivers applying procedures that a 12 years old kid could remember and apply.

That is a very simplistic view and one which I do not concour to. This industry is very very tough indeed and to find youself in the LHS of a big jet will take many years of hard work and dedication. It may seem at times pretty straightforward but that is because you are doing it daily for years. Ask a concert pianist how easy it is to play the piano?

Why all this comparison between a flying job and sitting in an office for 40 years? There are many good rewarding careers out there that give you respect, renumeration, leave, nights at home AND job satisfaction without requiring a mortgage on your balls to get into it.
Besides you are not comparing apples with apples here. There is no choice between having a career in flying and a career elsewhere as there no chances at all for a new licence holder and won't be for many years to come. Anyone who chances their luck now is just plain foolhardy and will very quickly wish they had taken heed of the cruel, harsh but honest advice being offered. It's like buying that Ferarri when there is no petrol left in the world!

And if you are wondering: I have the Ferarri, have had it nearly 3 decades and after 18 months I am still looking for the petrol station myself!

[KAG]

This industry is very very tough indeed and to find youself in the LHS of a big jet will take many years of hard work and dedication.

Point taken, edited my post accordingly.

[quant]

Only thing i've ever wanted to do and although i have another career as soon as i get my licenses and a paid flying job i'm done with my present job..

KAG can i have your airline job once i've finished :confused::E

[paco]

As far as I am concerned, boring is good for the passengers! :)

Try being a junior lawyer or a doctor. You'll be back in that seat before thinking.

Phil

[KAG]

KAG can i have your airline job once i've finished

Depending.... What do you give me in exchange?

[Karl Bamforth]

Sounds like someone should have done some research before becoming a pilot.

Has there ever been glory in airline flying? Maybe when BOAC were using 4 engined flying boats going down route to Cairo but not much glory since the advent of the jet airliner.

[KAG]

Probabely... Did some research when I was a kid, and found interesting books about the beginning of aviation. It was all exploration, human adventure, discovering and connecting continents. It was period of great hope for the future. But since human being never came to the moon, and exploration concerns more scientists than pilots. It was outdated I realize.
My bad.

[Kiltie]

KAG have you any experience on commercial jets? In order to describe it as boring and that average flying skills will take you there I assume you have?

I have flown survey aircraft, small turboprops, big turboprops, done aerobatics, still fly piston singles and twins fortnightly and go to work left seat on a medium jet. Each of these types of flying have their enjoyment and boredom factors.

I am tired of this blanket opinion that commercial jet flying is boring. There's plenty going on to occupy one's mind. It has its challenges and frustrations, just as much as my little aeroplane has. The self-titled "real pilots" who dismiss bigger aeroplanes rarely have had any experience on such types to have an informed opinion anyway!

[KAG]

Of course I have no experience on commercial jets.
I was saying that just for the fun of it ;) Kind of pretending. I mean if I were flying a real jet I would be like a real man right? And my post would have more weight, more importance!

[hollingworthp]

I'm still very new out of training with only 50 hours on type but already I find legs over 2 hours a little dull. Fortunately our average is 60-90 minutes with a reasonable number shorter than that which certainly keeps the interest level up.

Not sure if I would enjoy watching the magenta line for hours every day anywhere near as much as what I get to do.

[KAG]

Some airline flight very short distance, It may be much different I guess.

[quant]

KAG i'm not sure if you are telling the truth:confused: mmm

First the rant about don't do it then support for what you do? mmm another disgruntled wannabe i think..

:}

Hollingworth would love to do what you do.. biz jets :ok:

[Zippy Monster]

I mean if I were flying a real jet I would be like a real man right?

No, but you might have some clue as to what you're talking about.

There is a common misconception among the "real pilot" stick-and-rudder-hero community that commercial jet pilots do nothing except watch the autopilot for 3 hours at a time. There's quite a bit more to it than that. Maybe you'll see that one day.

[BigNumber]

Ahh, the ubiquotus 'ego battle of the sky'. Mines bigger than yours, and if not, I didn't want to play anyway!:ugh:

The truth is anyone can now 'experience' flying 737 / 320 through paying for the seat. Actually it's become little more than a 'fairground ride attraction' - until your credit runs out and the next punter arrives.

I hope that the 'credit crunch' ultimately puts a stop to these schemes. This done we can all move ahead as an industry. The airline accountants will not welcome this day!

Only with this done will the smiles return to everyones face and people be happy and fulfilled with the profession.

For my part the job is worth doing. I have never been bored or even questioned my continuing involvement. I believe the present employment climate is to blame for 99% of the threads negativity.

[2098]

Where some of you muppets come from God only knows! :rolleyes:

[betpump5]

My opinion is that this thread is slightly irrelevant but I understand that sometimes, a person like the OP needs to vent some frustration on a public forum rather than shout this in front of the Chief Pilot!

I honestly believe though that the pilots that make it to the airline know what they are getting themselves in for. You would have to be a hermit to not know the industry, whether it be from Pprune or from reading the newspapers. You would simply be found out at an interview if you did not know about the industry - technically speaking or T&C wise.

Therefore, the "new generation" pilots, i.e those that will be starting on the line circa 2010+ will know what they are getting themselves in to. I still wanted this job, even on the back of my dad being made redundant 3 times in his flying career and a life that ultimately caused the break up of his marriage. I understood this back in 99.

Family circumstances are an important factor in deciding whether you are happy in your job or not. At present, I'm happy with my pattern and the salary. I take a 744 for a fly about to pretty cool destinations. I am single with no kids. But if I had two kids, I know I would have to send them to an international school, and at my level in the airline, there would be very little financial help and I would see half of my salary go to my kids' school plus the rent on a house for such a family.

In that case, a $6000 pcm salary suddenly does not sound too impressive. Especially if my wife was not working.

This is a risk I took knowing I was ex-pat in this part of the world. I have a very long list of contacts who could get me a job back in blighty in a second if it were still 2006/7. Right now? Nothing. Nada. M'OL won't even take me!

[Mikehotel152]

There are very few jobs in the world that pay well and are fun. If it is your job to keep an airliner full of human lives safe, don't expect to be doing aeros downroute.

Conversely, most jobs that vary on a day-to-day basis are not very well paid. That's certainly true of flying, where a pilot who does a bit of para-dropping, some ferry flying, the odd turbo-prop charter flight, and tests microlights from a pretty grass strip, is not going to be earning much.

Try being a lawyer. A more dull, repetitive, red-tape spoiled job can't be found this side of a government owned stationery factory. :p That said, some people love it. But don't expect to earn enough to buy your own little aeroplane, because you won't, unless you spend all your money on flying, want an early divorce and kids who refer to you as 'Mummy's friend'.

When I changed career from law to aviation, every friend of mine was jealous. And I can assure you all, I wouldn't do any of their jobs for love nor money.

[GearDownFlaps]

Im sorry Jabbe, but your post is very silly indeed.
You are shown as being 25 years old and intimate you went to university .This means that effecitively you have propbably been flying airliners for a max of three years give or take .
I am not meaning to be derogatory in any way but I would summise that you professional life has been very limited .
I am 40 yrs old and working as an instructor , a job I love . I have been in the armed forces served for many years as a copper , worked in bars shops and abroad.
I can say with a a high degree of certainty that if you were to come out of your airliner and do anyone of these jobs for a short period of time , you would quickly learn what a nice life you have and that maybe your job isnt too bad after all , ask your cabin crew where they would prefer to be , or maybe you should do a few shifts as cabin crew dealing with members of the public and see for yourself the colour of the grass .
You are one of a few pilots I have either heard of or know personally who are young and say they think airliner flying isnt what it should be . All are from integrated courses and had financial assistance through their training from parents . They jumped blindly into the job with no experience of life itself , Uni doesnt count . One of my friends has done the honourable thing and used his degree for other purposes , as you youself may wish to do . He freely admits his mistake .
What you should not be doing is putting people off doing what they have dreamed of just because you made an ill informed career decision .
If I sat in an airliner bored stupid for 6 hours day in and day out , I can draw on the fact that Im not getting threatened , abused ,assaulted ,spat on etc on a day to day basis , I am not sitting in a tent in the chuffing sandpit sweating my cods off away from home 9 months of the year , I dont have peopel bleating at me left right and centre because the price tag was wrong on a 5 quid shirt , I will then think hey maybe this aint so bad .
Like I said I am an instructor and love it for all those out there wishing to be CPL's go for it its great fun , I get paid naff all but it beats the crap out of picking up drunk axxholes and dealing with people who lack the basic social skills to exist within a civilised community

:ok:

[Re-Heat]

Yeah, but when you realize that you can't pay off your loans; the grass can be brown on the other side and still look good when you don't have any yourself!
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know plenty of top JD/MBAs and the like who are also unable to pay off their loans in the present market.

[Norrington]

Well we are all different.. some might not find it boring to get up in the middle of the night to fly on auto pilot for over 3 hours and then get back after just seeing the destination airport. Well.. but I do. I like the short flights, the landings and especially the few times you can do a visual approach. (I have to admit that the thought of flying a float plane or similar instead have crossed my mind a couple of times.) But I can endure the boring time, if it pays off well in terms of coming home to your family, friends and have a creative hobby. But right now I don't have this luxury. But I hope to get it in the next up turn.

But why compare flying with a boring office desk job? There are plenty of other jobs out there that are more creative and fun and I don't think many pilots would settle for anything less.

Just get clear in your mind why you want to do this. I agree with the author that the love of flying isn't a reason enough, especially if you are planning to fly the big jets where you hardly touch the controls, and to get to the jets you have to work hard, sacrifice a lot and this pay to fly programs will for sure not stop.. and you can do a lot of fun with this money instead.

[cjd_a320]

Pilots are poorly paid/ underpaid as I found out when I had to switch from the aviation world to a financial one....

Trouble is, when your doning "rose tinted" aviation goggles you just never see the -ve's. I was the same years ago..

[350Z]

I'm always curious...what are the amazingly better options that are available outside of flying? Which career would any disgruntled pilot prefer to pursue?

For me, doctor= LOTS of studying, LOTS of money to train, LITTLE reward/appreciation, POOR working environment etc etc. This is a job that you really have to WANT (as with flying but more so imo).

Solicitor, pah I would rather not shuffle paper and write letters all day but each to their own.

My only alternate career aspiration is trading financial instruments and we all know how that industry is doing right now.

...You pays your money and takes you choice, life isn't a rehearsal but be sure YOU are happy in any decision you make.

[122.85]

Would agree with that 350Z.

I am under no illusion that it is not all roses out there but for me its something I have always wanted to do and am now in a position where I can do all my training without going into debt. I look at it as the money I spend on training is not an investment I will get back and if I even got a job I would be paid less than now (there is more to life than money) but I don't want to look back in many years time and wish I had gone for it. I am really enjoying the training and flying, the challenge is something I have missed in my current job.

Everyone has their own reasons to go down CPL / ATPL route and as long as they realise and understand that nothing is gauranteed then they should do what is best for them.

I say good luck to all of you and wish you the best!

[potkettleblack]

I love my job but more importantly I enjoy the money that it offers me and the lifestyle which it affords me to partake in. The day that this drops to an unacceptable level I am out of here and you can kiss your nice sunrises goodbye.

Frankly the guys that are willing to fly for free for the love of it are the ones that will happily kiss away any terms and conditions that this industry has remaining. Perhaps they will only finally get the message when it comes to retirement day and look at their bank balances.

[Happy Wanderer]

GDF, so, so true...... :ok:

HW

[JB007]

but it beats the crap out of picking up drunk axxholes and dealing with people who lack the basic social skills to exist within a civilised community

Well you will live in Blackpool!!!!!!!!

This thread is tosh really, I enjoy industry leading terms and conditions and to be honest, not by a choice of mine but by a merger of two awesome companies. This is a job that's no different to any other but in my opinion, on a scale that is just enormous - and by that I mean you'll get out of it what you put in, but the rewards are something else...I do not consider myself poorly paid by any stretch, I certainly don't work hard and going to work is just a pleasure, I'm just starting 6 rostered days off, worked 2 of them earn't an extra £1000 and am planning a weekend in Palma for me and the missus - and for this reason, I totally echo potkettleblack's comments, I love the lifestyle I can afford because of it...I work to live

To get throught the ATPL training LET ALONE get a GOOD job (you want a reward for the effort/expense/lack of earnings right? - I do not include the donkeys who join CTC or any other pay to fly schemes in this) you've really got to want to do this...you've got to want to test yourself, and push yourself and work hard and be a professional more than you'll ever really know until you're put in that 'first awkward' position with Captains/Senior Cabin Crew/Passengers...

Any doubts at all, it simply isn't for you...save everyone's time and your money and go find another profession.

[ONEWORLD_86]

Everyone is allowed their two pennys worth.

Personally I couldn't think of anything better......Happy as larry!:ok:

[Guttn]

Between the smalltime bashing and "I`m more a pilot than you" BS there is some good advice for the newbies.

1. Can`t pay off loans as a professional pilot. WTF!??! Yes, pilot education is now a high-cost one, and necessary to become... a pilot. There are several ways of doing so though. What other loans (luxuries) need to be paid off? A self-funded typerating on a medium jet perhaps? Nice car? High-end place to live? C`mon, you won`t be a senior Capt for awhile, and your paycheck reflects exactly that. My point being; yes you can live off a pilot paycheck, but pace yourself.

2. A lot of pilots who have been in the industry awhile start complaining about mundane things. Keep in mind they are complaining about details, as opposed to a more normal lifestyle where workers complain about the big picture.

3. Not what it appeared to be? Things never are. Some win, some lose. Some are fortunate and get a good flying job right away, some have to put in the hours to get somewhere, and some just call it a day early on. It takes all kinds.

4. Admitting mistakes is something a pilot doesn`t like to do, and tries not to do:E. A bad career move etc takes a man to admit to. And should by no means be bashed by saying that this is not for him (though I sense that in this case it has to do mostly with money issues).

5. The grass will always appear to be greener elsewhere. Always. But it can only get green up to a certain point. This is not infinite. Windowshopping can be fun (meaning looking and comparing your job with others), but keep in mind what makes you happy.

6. Pilots will almost always say that they fly the best airplanes no matter what. It`s built in our nature to want to appear best. Better than you, better than anyone.

Catch my drift? People have different perceptions and expectations. My best career advice would be; whatever floats your boat. Apply to the companies who will give you a combination of the flying you like (be it instructing, bush, turbopros or jets) and ok terms and conditions. Good luck.

[Delta Oscar Charlie]

I used to work as a senior manager(entertainment) getting paid €85k pa. Sounds great but when you break down the hours I had to put in its pretty ****. So I decided to use my savings to travel a bit and then do my CPL (boyhood dream). I should be finished by Christmas. I don't think things will improve in 2010 so my plan is to go back to work(all organised) and do my MECIR.. come 2011 I will have no debts( except for my mortgage :ouch:) and my licences completed and hope to have my ATPL's then also

The way I see it, if it works out that I can get into the business at that point fantastic, if it doesn't work out I still have my current career which can be quiet enjoyable and I'm pretty good at & I gave my dream a go (realising it to some extent as I will be a certified commercial pilot ) and will keep flying as a hobby.

I realise that not all wannabes have this option and I guess my point is, if you do have the option then go for it, you don't want to be an old timer sitting at home wondering why you didn't try. Remember you'll be dead long enough

Safe flying :ok:

[G SXTY]

Guess what - working as a professional pilot is a job. And just like any other profession, there are some great jobs out there, and some that are not so great. Some companies pay well and offer excellent lifestyles and terms and conditions - others don't. It's not a profession that will suit everyone, and that doesn't make anyone 'less of a man'.

Much will depend on who you end up working for, and your perspective (i.e. previous life and work-experience). In my (limited) experience, the very few individuals who are unhappy and moan about their lot as a pilot are the ones who have never done anything else - they have nothing to compare the job to. I have worked in a steel mill, been stuck in a portacabin dealing with lorry drivers all day, and spent 10 years in boring office jobs in London. Flying beats them all hands down.

Not that my lifestyle is anything like JB007's (lucky man). Regional lo-co, short haul, intense multi-sector days where I struggle to find time to eat or even go to the loo. 5 days on, 2 off, finish on a late, start on an early. It's not well paid for the money I have spent, but I still love it and always look forward to going to work. And as for 'watching the autopilot all day' - yeah, right. If you like excitement, try flying a Q400 on the autopilot and taking your eyes off it for 10 seconds. It'll bite you quicker than you can say; "Goodness, this thing's a bit of a handful."

The question you as wannabes have to ask yourselves is - and be brutally honest; "Do I really love flying? Do I love it enough to put up with all the hurdles and grief on the way to getting the licence, and do I love it enough to endure the downsides of the job once I make it to the right hand seat?" If the answer is yes (and if you're like me, you'll actually miss the job when you go on holiday) then a great career is possible. If you fancy flying as a career because of the money, or the kudus, or to pull the hosties, - or anything other than a passionate love of flying - then you're deluding yourself and it's really not for you.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I cannot echo that enough.

The good days have well and truly gone people. There is zero glamour, no respect, few benefits and you're always only a medical or sim check away from disaster. You will have to go to bed at 8pm you will have to get out of it at 4am. You will be away and you will be bored and your wife will be narky at yet another social event your roster stops you attending or yet another Christmas Eve spent working instead of tucking the children up into bed.

There is no escape. The Charters, the Long Hauls the Execjets are all working harder and racing with the Lowcos in a race to the bottom. This summer sees FO's on Boeings and Airbus in the UK working for £1,000 a month pay on 6 months summer work experience with no prospect of a job at the end of it following paying for their type rating. There is probably lower still to go.

British Airways (BA FFSK!) pilots have already agreed a CUT in their wages and lifestyle.

Historically airlines go bust after the recession is over. As everyone in the world is telling you this is the worst recession since WW2 what do you think will happen in 2010 and 2011 when the recession is over? Worst airline collapses since WW2 would be a logical conclusion.

I love this job. I think the pay and lifestyle are marvelous. I wouldn't begrudge a single Wannabe the chance to achieve the same. I fear though that it just isn't doable at the moment and for every Wannabe that makes it there will be a half dozen that are just burning £20 notes as fast as they can strike the match.


Sorry,

WWW

[MIKECR]

Pah!....trying doing my old job - 12 years of Her Majestys Constabulary...that'll soon show you what roster's and disturbed family life is like. 17 hours shifts at times(longest - 26 hours. Beat that at your local chinese sweat shop!!), no weekends off for 2 months, no sleep for 2 weeks because you've just done 6 different starts(9am, 6am, 7am, 5pm, 10pm, 2pm,) in less than a fortnight. One xmas off in 8 years!!!, dont even think about getting New Year off! If your lucky(really lucky!) you might just get the same holidays as your wife. As for how management treat you....well I think you get the idea..!

And some of you guys moan because you have to work xmas eve or miss the odd family event...heaven forbid finishing on a late and starting on an early!:rolleyes:

Sorry...couldnt resist...some of you have it real bad;)!

[Kelly Hopper]

I think you have some wires crossed there?
The problem is we do love flying which is why we do it. Do we love the career though? Two entirely different questions!

I have worked for a loco working all the hours/days you could work and I have to say I began to hate aviation. It simply left me with no time to do anything else at all in life. Flying 4 or 5 sector days, everyday with 30 mins turnarounds, defective a/c, bad pay, no benefits, no pension, nothing but abuse from management. How many of us want a life like like?
I got out of that and into a more enjoyable lifestyle but still with many problems that are hard to deal with and still makes me question what I am doing.
I would give it all up tomorrow but for two things:
1) and this has to come first, I'm a realist. I need an income.
2) I still enjoy my flying.

In view of this I continue with a career that could be, should be, and was once fantastic. Sadly I cannot describe my career in those terms.
Two best days in commercial aviation??? Getting your licence and retirement day!
But where is the pension????

[larzabell]

to all those people who seem to have a negative view of this career, and to those who say that there are many other careers to consider which are just as stimulating with similar benefits -

please enlighten me? I am interested to know your opinions.

[350Z]

BBC Director General- pay- £834,000

Cushy number as well. :ok:

Seriously though wtf do they actually do to warrant such a wage!

[scott5988]

HI,

Im 20 years old, have a ppl, and would kill to be in your shoes, im working my tits off to fund my ATPL. I cant afford to do it in one, i have to do my G/S come back and work for 6 months and save and go back, do CPL, and it goes on. You fancy swapping jobs? how do you fancy 55 hrs a week on a ****ty buliding site as an electrican? dont mean to be rude but get a grip! :ugh:

[smith]

Wish I had spent the £70k-ish it cost me on something more beneficial.

[CABUS]

Well done Scott, you keep powering on buddy and things will all come true one day. It is sad that there are some people that dont enjoy their job however, in this industry as soon as you start not enjoying it and wishing you were somewhere else you become complacent and generally not very good. Unfortunalty this industry is full of people who enjoy moaning for a living and some enjoy it more than actually flying. I worked hard for a 7 years saving the spond and it all worked out so keep going and you will appreciate even more when you finally get there!!

I also totally agree with GSXTY's last para, WELL SAID!!!! You have got to LOVE the flying and those guys who moan and are in the job to wear the uniform, chat up the CCrew and wear sunnies all day long then can really jog on and let some serious guys such as Scott and some friends of mine take your position. Sorry for the rant but I am fed up with seeing guys moan when there are pleanty of other chaps out there who would dream of doing the job and I really reckon some of them would do it to a higher standard.

CABUS:ok:

[Coto]

I do 3 to 4 flights a month, usually 3.

15 to 20 days per month.

Good pay( at least to my standards)

Comparing to my friends, some earn more than me, some have more challenging jobs....but none as my lifestyle(All the days offs, and enough money to enjoy them)
They always miss one thing: the money or the time.

For me being a pilot is the only job i found that allow me the lifestyle i have.

So my advice: maybe try and apply to another company, but dont leave this job.

[cjd_a320]

People seem to forget that last quarter commercial pilots was one fastest-growing sectors for claims of jobseekers’ allowance... Second only to the to financial's, according to the UK Office for National Statistics.

National Statistics Online - Product - Labour Market Statistics (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=1944)

If people want to pay 70K plus to end up at the job centre by being deluded its their choice...

Suddenly, being an electrican or public sector worker doesn't seem as bad....?

[ELLONNAGUN]

jhon travolta !!!!!!!????????a millioner but a captain:ok:???????

[2098]

G-SXTY, WWW & 007 are all spot on.

I mean what do some people expect? A million pounds pa working 2 on 8 off with a stop over in barbados?:confused:

So far I have spent over 70k lost out on over 40k in earnings just to end up swimming in a hold pool. Lucky me I have a decent job (20K) to keep me busy in the mean time. But I long to be going to work to do something that I actually enjoy and am passionate about.

Earning potential in this game is good, try earning over 40k or even 30k out in the real world........and try earning that without being bored for 40hrs per week.

Some people are just not cut out to be modern airline pilots.

Happy landings :)

[Scott Duch]

Its really hard reading all this and working at the same time.....revising for hours and hours on end to try and succed in school as much as i can. I do exam paper after exam paper in maths, physics, chemistry and geography and then pop on here for a break and then read this.....it does put me off.....then i look at my wall and see the 777 flightdeck poster and then think where i could be in 10 years and my head is back in the books, thats what dreaming of a pilot does for me.

I'm fully aware of what the industry is like, i planned to go straight into flight training and now i've applied for uni and got a place for aeronautical engineering.....that enough to show my dedication to becoming a pilot?

Im always trying to push myself to tackle my weaknesses in questions for my subjects and try every type of exam question available to me and then i read some of the stuff on here are its really off putting.....making me think will i ever get into that right hand seat?

I have a weekend job and now week job (which really don't enjoy) trying to get as much hours as possble to save up towards my ATPL and i'm not going to be doing it for another 5/6 years.

I really hope i do make it one day and battle through these somewhat negitive times.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Every now and again I do this

It bloody well is worth it.


Sipping coffee as dawn breaks over the land below, bursting through the status, greasing it on a dark dirty night. All this is rewarding. Working with people who aren't ar5eholes - priceless.


WWW

[mona lot]

Sorry for the rant but I am fed up with seeing guys moan when there are pleanty of other chaps out there who would dream of doing the job and I really reckon some of them would do it to a higher standard.

****ing brilliant,:D:D:D:D. Did your FTO tell you this?:ugh:

We all know every airline is crying out for 200 hour pilots to replace their current gash crews with their high standards and £80 0000 loans?
:ok:

Thanks for making me laugh:ok:

[cjd_a320]

I really hope i do make it one day and battle through these somewhat negitive times

During a deflation cash is the most valuble of all assets. Deflation also takes years and years to work its way through its cycle.

So at your age scot you can take 10 years out, save your assets, but enjoy life and reassess things then.

You'll be in a far strong position than the rest of the crowd going forward...

[cjd_a320]

=WWW: a decade ago I was a wannabe

Very different stage of the cycle now for wannabes.....

= CABUS: pleanty of other chaps out there who would dream of doing the job and I really reckon some of them would do it to a higher standard

There is plenty of excess capacity for future wage destruction as we proceed through the deflationary cycle...

[TheBeak]

Wish I had spent the £70k-ish it cost me on something more beneficial.


I wish I had too - that puts it as simply as it needs to be.

[G SXTY]

At the risk of repeating myself, I have met guys in training who were in it for the ray bans and the chance to impress girlies. I'd be amazed if some of them even made it to an airline, let alone managed a career out of it. I have also met professional pilots who have done nothing else in their lives and would frankly benefit from a spell in the real world. They are a small minority, however. The vast majority of pilots I've met - from students to 30 year captains - are as passionate about flying as I am. Hell, I fly with one chap who has 23,000hrs and started flying before I was born - and who goes home to fly an Extra 300 at the weekends.

And that's my point - you need that passion. It's what keeps you motivated, whether you're a teenager doing GCSEs and dreaming of a far-off career, a student studying mind-numbing ATPL subjects, or a 200hr CPL holder wondering how the hell you'll ever get a job. And you'll certainly need it once you do find work - trust me, there are more downsides to commercial flying than I'd ever imagined, and I thought I'd done my homework. And before we get into a 'my job's worse than yours' contest, I know how lucky I am, but I can't think of many other careers where your competence is tested every six months and failure can mean suspension or dismissal.

I respect people who decide this game isn't for them, because I've been there and nearly made that decision myself - the pros and cons were always very finely balanced. In the end though, it was a love of flying that got me here, and is what keeps me motivated now. I had a horrible journey to work yesterday; nearly two hours to do 50 miles, followed by a mad dash to the crew room to print off the paperwork, then join a long queue to get felt up by 'security'. And then it all changed. Someone gave me the controls of a £20 million bus, we sat at the holding point for nearly half an hour, and I got to plane-spot and build hours and get paid for it. Then we went flying, and I managed a decent approach and landing onto a short, wet runway, in a gusting crosswind that a few months ago would have seen me handing control to the other bloke. And I was as happy as a pig in you-know-what.

For me it boils down to a very simple question - how much do you love flying?

[tropicalfridge]

When supply outstrips demand for jobs should the experienced guy (which I'm not) tell it how it is at risk of sounding like they are trying to scare off the newguys, afterall we are all competing for the jobs at the moment, and there are only a few months difference between someone with 500hrs on a jet and someone with 300hrs straight out of flight school. Or is it more a case of helping to stop them getting into crippling debt when probability is against them? Perhaps a bit of both if people are being honest.

Whether people started the course for the 'the right reasons' or not isn't really relevant once they are £40-70k down the line. I think most Pilots enjoy the flying side whether their first taste of it was on an integrated course, or uncle bobs flying club down the road. If they don't, then there are plenty of opportunities to bow out during training and plenty of reasons in the current climate.

I did a while in commercial flying, then went back to instructing for various reasons. If I was thinking about going through training now I'd probably hold off doing the ground school, if I'd done the ground school I would hold off the flying training as long as the ground school time limit allowed. But I certainly wouldn't ditch my plans entirely, and I wouldn't waste any money on an FI course without a job agreed before hand.

[TurboJ]

and there are only a few months difference between someone with 500hrs on a jet and someone with 300hrs straight out of flight school.

Quite a naive comment, me thinks. It took me three jobs and 5yrs and I'm still just short of 500hrs jet time.

Jabbejokker - maybe this flying lark is not for you - I flew a visual approach into Nice yesterday, no autopilot, flight director, autothrottle; scenery was amazing and I was being paid for it. - Awesome -

I then had to do the walkround, sunning myself in 27deg blistering heat, getting off on all the playboy biz jets and VIP Airbus' on the remote stands; not to mention the departure, turning at 500ft over the sea, climbing through the overhead, looking out towards Nice, Monaco and the mountains - best office in the world :cool:

Of course the industry has issues - find me an industry that doesn't have its own issues and stresses but be gratetful you have a job -

If you don't like it go and find your ideal job and free the seat up for someone who appreciates it. :mad:

[kingofkabul]

I think those pilots who moan about working conditions, work hours etc should try a real job for a while - they will race back.

By the way by "real job" I don't mean 9-5, a lot of people in my position would kill for a 9-5. I don't actually know of any of my grad friends who have the luxury of working just 40 hours a week.

To give you an idea of other options out there, I work in an intense commercial enviroment in the city. My work hours are typically 9-9, 5 days a week. The longest I have worked is a 23 hour day, followed by 4 hours of sleep, then a 12 hour day on top. (and we don't have the luxury of planned rosters, you don't know how you daya will pan out until it is over).

On top of that you have to deal with intense commercial pressure, messed-up office politics, and the fact that in the 12 months you have been here 20% of your colleagues have been fired for not making the grade. And you could be next.

Oh yes, and the pay per hour is crap. This is after studying hard for 3 years in an intense university course (and no, I did not study at Wigan Polytechnic!)

I tell my friends at work I am saving up to be a pilot and they all envy me, even if the pay is not as great and you get treated like a child. Still, it is a dream job, not what is used to be, but can you think of anything else you would rather do? 80 hours of flying a month for an average starting salary of £25k, probably averaging £60k a year over the course of a career? I would think that is worth the investment in the flying course, maybe not today, but in the next 5 years definitely.

The grass is pretty brown on this side.

[CABUS]

****ing brilliant,:D:D:D:D. Did your FTO tell you this?:ugh:

This has got to be one of my favourite direct replies ever! However, we actually were discussing this around the pool the other day, chin up!

We all know every airline is crying out for 200 hour pilots to replace their current gash crews with their high standards and £80 0000 loans?
Brilliant!:ok: Nothing more I can really say to that other than I hope for your sake you have got a chip the same size on the other shoulder!

For those who love flying and are working hard to get started in this great career, keep going its well worth it. As previously mentioned you get to spend your days at work watching the world go by flying aircraft into some cool airports and some busy airports and doing some great flying, see some fantastic weather and sometimes some fantastic beaches and intersting bars (senior frogs) Its a career that has a huge amount to offer! Just from time to time you have to fly with guys who mona lot for 11hrs a day!

Cabus:ok:

[Caudillo]

TurboJ, I find your post is pretty much in keeping with many others who take the opposite view from Jabbejokker.

First there's an explanation of something you enjoy in the job, you mention enjoying doing the visual into Nice.

Secondly comes the advice to be humble, "be grateful you have a job".

And last, the resentment and indignation (paraphasing here..) - sod off if you don't like what we do, and let someone else in who's more like us.

Jabbejokker doesn't think this is what's for him, what suits him. That's fair enough wouldn't you say? If you offered somebody something you eat or drink that they didn't like and they declined it, you wouldn't take offense and tell them to get lost would you?

If I were to reply in a similar manner, perhaps suggesting that your trip to Nice was pretty much nothing more than you could've got from a computer game then walking round a car park for a couple of minutes, that wouldn't be very flattering would it?

That the best office in the world would've been one where your punters ended up going, to then enjoy a 35 hour working week, paid lunches, two weeks guaranteed holiday at the height of summer - enjoying watching you soar off into the azure, eating cack out of a foil packet, a privilege you have to fight to keep, doing 50% more work than they, in a high altitude, dry and carcinogenic environment - and that all summer, because surprise, there's no leave when you want it - and no, there's nothing we can do about it.

Perhaps that you're the one who's grateful he has a job because it's frightening to think what an out of work pilot would do, or have to do to retrain. Perhaps that even though you're not naked, JJ is pointing out that the Emperors clothes aren't as fine as he might think had he looked in other shops. Perhaps that if you're happy in a job that is largely unstimulating, although occasionally not so, doing things by rote with personal initiative limited to how many times you take a piss on the turnround or whether you take mercy on the poor sod next to you and not brief him for the 10th time this week on his home airfield - then perhaps you're the limited one and don't like it that Jabbejokker might have highlighted some uncomfortable truths?

[potkettleblack]

That is class!

Alas we have 3 camps.

1) The realists. Largely enjoy the job but realise that bills have to be paid and demand a certain quality of life. Will only put up with so much cr*p before moving onto pastures new.

2) The aeros*xuals. Anything aviation related sets their world on fire. Can be found hanging around flying clubs or lurking at the edge of carparks adjoining airfields on their days off listening into a scanner. Will happily fly for free and believe that the auto pilot and an ILS is the work of the devil.

3) The wannabes. Too inexperienced at this stage to determine whether they will hop into group 1 or 2 after securing their first job. Will never listen to the likes of The Realists.

[TurboJ]

Jabbejokker doesn't think this is what's for him, what suits him. That's fair enough wouldn't you say?

No - I would say his post was pretty abusive and in need of some moderation - so he/she may have had a bad day but the use of expletives in expressing his dislike for his job on a public forum is rather sad and somewhat unprofessional.

If I were to reply in a similar manner, perhaps suggesting that your trip to Nice was pretty much nothing more than you could've got from a computer game then walking round a car park for a couple of minutes, that wouldn't be very flattering would it?

If thats how you view it, great - I don't see how such a jolly can be represented on Microsoft Flight Sim though. ???

Perhaps that you're the one who's grateful he has a job because it's frightening to think what an out of work pilot would do, or have to do to retrain.

Absolutely - Completely grateful I have a job - Tell the family of four who live near me who lost their jobs with Excel - Dad was a Captain, Mum and Daughter a hostie and son an F/O - yep - completely grateful. - or the six pilots were lost their jobs the day I left my last company.

Perhaps that if you're happy in a job that is largely unstimulating, although occasionally not so, doing things by rote with personal initiative limited to how many times you take a piss on the turnround or whether you take mercy on the poor sod next to you and not brief him for the 10th time this week on his home airfield - then perhaps you're the limited one and don't like it that Jabbejokker might have highlighted some uncomfortable truths?

So if you don't like it leave - simple. If you don't like crew food, don't eat it. Simple - If you don't want to brief for your home field, use the words 'standard brief' !

As I have posted in other threads, I have worked in different jobs, in all weathers, serving an ungrateful master, at great cost to my own personal safety, where the politics and issues are more than whether the company serves you breakfast ! :eek:

For all the people who moan about flying and the issues in their company, I have yet to hear what alternative careers these people have in mind? :ugh:

[TurboJ]

Pkb - Lmao