BA288 Emergency at Phoenix

[firstchoice7e7]

news from another site that BA288 has deployed its slides after a possible fire on board....

anyone know more?

[positionand hold]

My wife on board - just had a call. Yes, slides deployed (that's how she exited).

Now in terminal and told to "rebook", whatever that means....

No other news on any injuries or reasons, but she is certainly a bit shaken up.

[11Fan]

Smoke in cabin forces evacuation of flight leaving Phoenix - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoenixmetro/central/story/Smoke-in-cabin-forces-evacuation-of-flight/aCzM-F7YykGiIUrkcdvsWg.cspx)

Other Local TV Stations:

12 News - arizona daily news - arizona headline news - phoenix news - local news (http://www.azcentral.com/12news/)

AZTV7/Cable 13, Phoenix, Prescott, AZ, News, Weather, Gas Prices - AZTV7/CABLE 13 HOMEPAGE (http://www.arizonasown.com/)

Edited to add: positionand hold, glad your wife is OK.

[SuanLum]

According to BBC
BBC NEWS | Americas | BA evacuates fume-filled US jet (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8145686.stm)
and Sky TV earlier plane hadn't taken off so no emergency landing,still unpleasant for those pax concerned I imagine.

[positionand hold]

Just for a little accuracy (for the benefit of Sky News/AP), the flight was about to depart Phoenix NOT land. "Hundreds" would have been the 300 or so pax on board, I guess....

It had left the gate but had not reached the holding point (and it's a very short taxi). Very acrid smoke was coming from the rear of the passenger cabin (galley, maybe??) and some young children were carried forward because of this smoke. I understand the smoke had something of a peroxide-type smell.

It seemed a little while before the decision was taken to deploy the slides (though perhaps it was not) and some main deck passengers were directed to the upper deck slides because it was taking a while to clear the main deck forward door areas (the Y class cabin at least appeared completely full or almost so).

The latest local news says no actual fire was detected by fire crews. Usual grazes etc, from the slides, but nothing serious as far as I know.

[411A]

Yes, 300 or so, passengers.
It would appear that an air conditioning pack overheated and/or an APU problem, sent rather dense smoke throughout the cabin...the outside temperature was 110F, at the time.
'Tis rather warm at this time of year in PHX.:}
The airplane will be there for awhile...all the door slides were deployed, it appeared.

[TiiberiusKirk]

Doesn't look like the plane had moved more than a few feet if at all from the loading tunnel.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46043000/jpg/_46043292_ba_plane226.jpg

[lomapaseo]

Wow they deployed the upper deck chute. That's got to be scary for a passenger to look down. I wonder if they actually used them.

I'm not sure if I'm really scared of heights but I don't like loosing my natural horizon. So being on top of a 747 fuselage using the crew escape ropes (sic) would not be my cup of tea either.

[bigjames]

i understand that a fire on a fully fueled aircraft is a very scary thing but was it really necessary given the jetbridge was still in place?

is there an SOP in such circumstances?

[M.Mouse]

...but was it really necessary given the jetbridge was still in place

The airbridge was not in place.

[BOAC]

bigjames - I assume you mean was the 'evacuation' really necessary? Ask yourself what is the quickest way to get 300 odd people off a (possibly) burning aircraft? Single airbridge door or multiple slides? That is assuming the airbridge is still connected rather than just 'in place' as you put it.

[Huck]

i understand that a fire on a fully fueled aircraft is a very scary thing but was it really necessary given the jetbridge was still in place?



This is what was going through the captain's mind (see the bit 52 seconds in):

Ykvpx5EvLwQ

[eastern wiseguy]

Fire service took their time there!! (CAL120)

[TiiberiusKirk]

The picture in post 7 appears to be of an different incident... the apparently collapsed MLG and the #4 engine sat on the ground being the give away.That pic in post #7 was from BBC, This one from sky news, the same other than dusk/dark:

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jul/Week2/15335769.jpg

[Cubbie]

From the bbc website looks like some passenger panic,- calling for the doors to be opened, Kudos to the cabin crew in keeping them under control. Have seen a similar scenario whereby a tail pipe fire,which was fairly dramatic but essentially quite a harmless momentary event, caused someone in the cabin to shout "Fire" and then mass panic broke out, some pax actually opened the doors and deployed the slides while the aircraft was still pushing back- not good!

[TheTsunami]

Ordered an evacuation last year on my 737 due to smoke everywhere in the aircraft during taxi in. I had the airbridge connected as it was so close. No one got injured, all 110 pa and crew got out in a mere 2 minutes. If I had to do it again, i'd use the slides!
Full mayday, fire department arrived within minutes, no evidence of fire was found after inspection. Later was revealed an electric failure had caused the air/gnd system to fail. No cooling of the airconditioningpacks on the ground. They heat up pretty quick apparently, burning old oil and dust. This burning oil gives an acrid smell, which sets you on the wrong track.
Curious what caused this.
I'm happy everyone got out!

Cheers, T.:ok:

[RobertS975]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/phxplane/flying/baem3.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/phxplane/flying/baem5.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/phxplane/flying/baem6.jpg


Just out of curiosity, what does it take to get this plane airworthy again? Do the slides get replaced completely or somehow repacked?

[positionand hold]

As I said last night, my wife was on board, so I can correct some inaccuracies here. I had not previously realised just how easily some posters will jump to inaccurate conclusions until I was in this position to know exactly what actually happened!

The aircraft is G-CIVB and, as far as I can see, all of the pictures above are of the actual aircraft.

The initial smell was noticeable before push-back commenced

Push-back started, but after a few yards it stopped and the aircraft was moved forward again, almost to the jetway, but it was not immediately reconnected (as far as I know)

Worryingly, there was ZERO PA at any time (or it was so quiet as to be inaudible) - the pax were just talking to each other. I thought there were two or three different "Evac" recordings which the crew just press a button to select and for it to play automatically??

Some passengers took it upon themselves to walk forward with young children because of the smell and smoke (even thought the aircraft was moving and no crew told them to sit down)

My wife was in row 36 and there was most certainly NO panic anywhere around her

Pax simply sat and waited for instructions, whilst obviously becoming more and more aware and concerned about the acrid smell - this lasted about 10 minutes

If you know the config, you will know my wife was two rows in front of door 3R (I think door 3 anyway, but it may have been 2R).

The only reason she knew to evac, was because two crew were at this door, they held back the pax until the slides were fully deployed, then started the evac. It took three minutes to clear the aircraft (I don't know how the few WCHR pax were taken off).

There was still NO PA at all, though of course the crew were shouting a bit to keep the pax moving

A significant number of pax grabbed their wheelie bags, etc from the overhead bins and came down the slides with them....!!

The pax were assembled in the open on the ramp, though not a significant distance from the aircraft (about 25 - 30 yards back) and stayed there for about FIFTEEN TO TWENTY MINUTES - long enough for ground staff to locate, carry out and distribute bottles of water for everyone.....

They were standing on the ramp as the fire trucks began to arrive

Eventually, they were ushered back into the terminal (an endless walk), where the inevitable other side of these events began - the endless standing around waiting to hear about bags, carry-on bags, re-booking, avoiding TV cameras in your face, etc.

Very late last night (AZ time) the flight was shown as rescheduled to 16.00 today, but now it is shown as cancelled.

So now we're off to the airport to join a no doubt lengthy queue, locate the checked-in bags (or file a PIR...) and try to get her re-booked - it could be a long and frustrating day and she is not really looking forward to repeating the push-back experience anyway!!

[Rainboe]

I flew 747 with BA for 18 years. It evidently happened during start check on pushback. The pushback was halted, probably after a phone call from the cabin. Unfortunately, the flight deck is totally remote from what is going on in the cabin, so it would have taken time to assess exactly what was going on, call out assistance, stop the push and ask the ground staff what they can see outside, and arrange for a tow back to the gate if not immediately serious. The lack of immediate PA does not mean they were sitting doing nothing! Had it developed into a more serious situation, the cabin crew would have immediately stopped the push with a call to the flight deck, and they are authorised to commence an emergency evacuation independently in a catastrophicly serious situation only, such as cabin fire and flames.

The crew are loathe to commence an emergency evacuation without a serious requirement- they always cause injury to individuals and broken bones are frequent. From what I can assess from reports, it was carried out correctly to a 'T'. I think maybe the situation overtook a planned disembarkation at the jetty, which would have been slow, despite the developing emergency. It is vital in a non-catastrophic situation that the handling of the problem is controlled and the response is measured.

The slides all need replacing. It is likely 2 will be replaced (for the crew) and the aeroplane will not fly back to base with passengers.

[rheum101]

Positionandhold - first and foremost - happy to hear that your wife is OK. I'm sure the rebook, recheck, restart is frustrating.

I have two questions for you from your "firsthand" knowledge:

1. What was the "smoke state" in the cabin?
- was visibility impaired: 5m / 1m?
- where did it get to in terms of breathe-ability: choking?

2. Do you ( &/ your wife) think the correct decision was taken this time?
- and was this done too late / too soon?

And a comment:

Lack of PA announcements seems to be a recurring theme at PPRUNE. I am not sure that there is much science on this and clearly it is not a good thing to issue "don't panic" noise. Surely something on lines of "The captain is aware of a potential problem and is currently investigating - please be prepared to follow instructions from cabin crew..." would be better. If only to avoid "news vacuum induced panic".

-r101

[Rainboe]

I understand there was no 'news-vacuum induced' panic or otherwise! I would guess the passengers could visibly see the crew were dealing with the situation and preparing for something. I don't think it correct to ask an opinion on the incident from someone who was not there!

I applaud anyone who went down the upper deck slide! Unless you have stood at the top of one and seen how high it is- it is seriously high and steep- you have no idea! I had a similar feeling standing at the top of the Stuka at Wet n' Wild in Florida (I chickened out!).

The pilots would not use escape ropes at all. But I would rather use one of those than the slide, but the standard exit is from the cabin.

[radeng]

How did the ground staff handle the accomadation problem? My experience of the BA ground staff at Phoenix is that they don't leave until the flight has really gone, and stay well over their alloted hours if there's a problem. Be interested to know what they amanged - BBC news said they were arranging hotels. That would be one hell of a job at thet time of night at a weekend.

I use that flight quite requently: fortunately, I have friends in Phoenix with whom I could stay in such an eventuality....

[merlinxx]

SOP followed, evac done correctly:ok: What's the problem, you want drama with all interrupted ops or what:ugh:

[CR2]

I've been down the U/D slide a few times (for fun). My previous outfit would "advertise" inhouse when they were to be changed out due timex-ed. All were invited for a ride (advertised in advance so we could wear jeans... nylon/polyester etc trousers will leave you showing the color of your underwear to all and sundry :} )

As Rainboe stated.. a Stuka dive. Lean forward and grab your knees/ankles otherwise you'll go a** over t*t backwards... :ouch:

[visibility3miles]

I applaud anyone who went down the upper deck slide! Unless you have stood at the top of one and seen how high it is- it is seriously high and steep- you have no idea!

Asking as SLF here -- I've read that broken/twisted ankles can happen easily when using emergency chutes. I recall that they used to ask pax who reached the ground early to help slow others to avoid further problems. Perhaps I'm too oblivious to the safety lecture these days, but I don't remember hearing that for a while.

Running in terror versus being a brave hero helping others is always a chance event, depending on the situation.

My husband is afraid of heights, and might be seized by fear when faced with sliding from the upper deck if given a chance to think about it. (No offense intended to him -- he's fine normally and has no fear of flying.)

What do you do if someone gets paralyzed with fear? Shove them? Rush them out so fast they have no chance to think? Say reassuring words and pretend it's a playground slide?

I recall from safety briefings that you're supposed to kick off your shoes first. Is this to keep them from catching and spinning you around, or, if wearing heels, to avoid gouging (and perhaps deflating) the slide?

If ever faced with sliding down an emergency exit, I hope I would treat it like a fun ride in an amusement park, and let fear kick in later.

[OldBristolFreighter]

My concern would be the report that folks were taking their bags down the slides.
I was on a BA shorthaul last week and there was the usual seriously large/heavy “cabin bags”. (One bag required 2 people to lift it, and it filled the locker). Get one of those stuck in the exit row and you’ve trouble.

[Rainboe]

People are welcome to 'freeze' with terror- just remember there is a large group of people in rather a hurry right behind them! They will not 'freeze' for long! Shoes should be removed to prevent damage to the slide and unpredictable reaction to the slide surface. The cabin crew will be shouting at able bodied men to support others coming down after them, but there is a deceleration surface on the slide and speed is reduced just as you reach the bottom. The depressing thing is to see that people once again took handbaggage down with them despite the fact that it may cost others their lives in delaying evacuation for those following.

Years ago we had smoke pouring outside from an aircon pack on the gate. We immediately called for disembarkation by the jetty. The problem with blowing the slides on the jetty is all the equipment outside.

These procedures are very well trained in the simulator and analysed after for logic and common sense in decisions taken. The result is BA crews, as we all are, are very well versed in these procedures. It appears that this was all carried out rapidly, superbly and efficiently, and without panic. Are the Pprune 'experts' now going to come out with unfounded criticism? My own thoughts are 'bloody well done! Unexpected, at a bad time, and executed faultlessly.'

[visibility3miles]

Rainboe -- Thank you for your reply.
Yes, well done by all.

[eagle21]

It would be interesting to know whether the safety demo had been played already or it washalfway trough.

BA cabin crew SEP standards are very high and I am glad to see they did a good job:ok:

[positionand hold]

The BA staff were extremely polite and patient, in spite of some provocative comments - I hear a woman complaining nobody knew when the "replacement aircraft" would be arriving and this was one hour after the incident. People are clearly conditioned to complain and real quick!

Several BA staff stayed all night and I saw them still there at 11.30 local this morning (and they were still charming). My wife got re-booked via IAH without too much trouble then, at the CO gate for the PHX-IAH flight she was upgraded.....

I can't comment on the hotels, because we did not need one. My wife is on a flight now, so I do not know the exact visibility, but I had the impression the issue was much more of an extremely acrid smell and some loss of vis, rather than the need to grope your way to the nearest door.

G-CIVB is now parked way, way down at the extreme western end of PHX, with all doors closed and no slides visible (and not a lot appearing to be going on either).

I'm grateful none of those really experienced and mature FD crew came on to chew me off about SOPs, etc. Yes, it was a non-event if you were not there and was handled reasonably well (though I would stop short of awarding kudos to the cabin crew, based on my wife's experience in her area of the cabin). Not so funny at the time though, when you had little idea what was developing and at what point the crew were going to be seen to be doing something about it.

[Rainboe]

That last paragraph is a bit naughty. You were not there. You have no reason to criticise, not knowing what the crew were involved in doing at the time. Everybody seems to have gotten off sharpish and with incredibly few injuries considering this was a full emergency evacuation. All of them will be interrogated and exactly what and when happened. I cannot see that the result will be bad. The evidence of the training is there- we have also had the 777 sudden crash at LHR where once again a classic emergency evacuation was extremely competently handled. Don't defile what has probably once again been a competent evacuation with unfounded slurs or criticism.

Local airport staff always see the last departure away safely. They know if anything goes wrong, they stay to sort out the fallout, whatever the time. In the fog this spring, our traffic officer at Stansted stayed on duty, without sleep, for 26 hours sorting out a grounded aircraft and passengers, then sorted arrangements for the following day's flight before crashing out. They know it comes with the job. Getting hotels for 350 people is always a nightmare. They go through the list, suddenly rates become exorbitent, and then coach arrangements must be made.

[Smell the Coffee]

I was not present at the scene but as a BA crewmember, we are trained to deploy slides ONLY if commanded by the Captain over the PA system OR, by activating the evacuation alarm signal located at each door in a CATASTROPHIC situation.

The photos and videos I have seen suggest the situation may not have been considered catastrophic; this might explain the apparent reluctance on the part of the crew to deploy slides without any signal from the Captain, or by the activation of the alarm by another crewmember at another door. If you are going to activate the evacuation alarm and open a door/deploy the slide, you better have a good reason for doing so.

Every incident/event is unique and brings up problems which even the most thorough emergency manuals cannot alone provide solutions for; it is thus up to the crew to collectively think and react quickly without jumping the gun and making the situation worse.

[yotty]

Probably just an over-heated re-circ fan .. I suspect it'll all come out in the wash ..:ok:

[oldtora]

Here are the stupid, heavy cabin bags again. := How many times must we remind the companies that they should NOT allow the pax to bring those stupid, heavy cabin bags onboard. The gate agents MUST stop them at the jet way, and NOT allow them onboard. Who would want to be mindlessly brained from behind by a heavy carry on dropped by an idiot? A child could be seriously injured by those stupid bags. Maybe the companies should just remove the big overhead compartments and forbid all the carry on bags. :cool:

[anartificialhorizon]

Second full, successful evacuation of a BA aircraft (first, BA038 at LHR) without major incident in 18 months.

Well done to the crews involved. Think BA SEP dept can see the fruits of their labour and is testament to their training and BA's procedures.

:D

[Captain Airclues]

It isn't just heavy bags that passengers take with them. Several years ago, during an evacuation at Barbados, several passengers were injured by broken glass at the bottom of the slides. Many of the passengers had taken their duty free booze with them.

Dave

[Tandemrotor]

positionand hold
Worryingly, there was ZERO PA at any time (or it was so quiet as to be inaudible) - the pax were just talking to each other.

Just wondering if your wife is absolutely certain there was no PA?

How did she first become aware they were actually 'evacuating'???

And was there any kind of audible alarm?

[promani]

It seems that the FAs did a great job in this evac. Not sure if I would like to evac down the upper deck slide. Well done :).

[Dream Buster]

Is it known yet whether the cause was oil or electrical?

If oil - see Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome (http://www.aerotoxic.org) for the likely health effects.

Good luck to all involved.

DB:ok:

[411A]

Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome

Hmmm, I see these folks beat their somewhat obtuse drum at every opportunity, whether it makes sense, considering the circumstances....or not.:rolleyes:

[CR2]

Chemtrails. Blame the CIA. And the French of course :}

[positionand hold]

Tandemrotor

My wife is pretty sensible and well travelled, so I am comfortable to accept her assertion as I described it (i.e. either there was no PA or it was inaudible). She was seated in row 36, so not in a remote corner, or whatever, in terms of being able to hear any PA. She mentioned no other form of audible alarm. Thanks to the very helpful BA ground staff at PHX, she's back in the UK now, so I cannot easily ask her.

I think I already mentioned she only knew an evac was happening because she was two rows ahead of Door 3 (or 2) Right and so could see it starting.

Rheum101 made a valid comment that some kind of "holding" PA may have been better than nothing at all, though of course I recognise this could actually generate panic in other areas of the aircraft where passengers may not actually be aware of any issues.

I don't think I was knocking the BA SOPs or CC - hey, everybody got off thank goodness and pretty quickly (once it started, that is).

However, I'm quite surprised nobody has picked up on the fifteen or twenty minutes all the passengers spent standing around out on the ramp comparatively close to the aircraft, watching the fire crews arrive and investigate?? They were there long enough for ground staff to rustle up and start distributing cases of bottled water and this will certainly have taken quite a few minutes, for sure! This did not sound very bright to me, in light of the likely blast area of that (obviously profoundly worse) China Airlines flight 120 incident.

I'm not certain if the air-side stand number corresponds with the in-terminal gate number but, if you are familiar with KPHX and terminal gate number B25 (the one normally used by BA), you will know the BA pax could not have strayed very far from the aircraft without risking infringing the nearby taxiways C and R. Taxiway R is an important route to 25R, used by many of the regional US Air Terminal Four departures at this time of the evening (and I note this area is noted as non-vis from the tower).

[frangatang]

Oh and just where are you going to rustle up 300+ bottles of water at that time of night, in 30 mins??

[RevMan2]

Everyone (apart from positionandhold and including rainboe, which DOES surprise me...) appears to be missing the core issue:

Lack of clear information.

As in "If they didn't hear it, you didn't say it"

In a situation like this, early on in the piece a crew member HAS to say something along the lines of

"We have a problem with the cabin ventilation, there's no danger, we're checking and we'll let you know what's happening"

I've experienced the whole bandwidth - from waiting AN HOUR after you've watched them tow the aircraft away from the terminal before being informed of a delay to a running commentary of which screw they were tightening at that very instant (Not quite, but not far off...)
Somewhere in between would be good, and if I can smell smoke in the cabin and people are moving away from the source, I want to to know NOW.

If Mrs P&H didn't hear cabin PAs, then - to all intents and purposes - there weren't any.

[411A]

Oh and just where are you going to rustle up 300+ bottles of water at that time of night, in 30 mins??

Well, IF you knew anything about the PHX airport, you might not ask such an obtuse question.

[Captain Airclues]

frangatan

I think that you might have misunderstood positionand holds statement;

They were there long enough for ground staff to rustle up and start distributing cases of bottled water and this will certainly have taken quite a few minutes, for sure!

The ground staff did manage to locate 300 bottles of water.

Dave

[simfly]

positionandhold, the proximity of other stands and taxiways wouldn't so much have been an issue, I'm sure ATC would have stopped everything.
Re the standing around on the ramp etc, people are quick to criticise, but don't think of the situation practically... How do they get staff there asap to look after pax when they may be busy and hard to reach immediately. Where do they get the bottles of water from for that amount of people. If the staff have no information (as BA may not know what to do immediately) then they would be lying to pax if they told them something etc etc.. put yourself on the other side. If I were paxing and ended up in a similar situation, I know I'd just have to be patient, and glad that I got out of the aircraft in the first place!

[apaddyinuk]

She was seated in row 36

That actually would have put her at doors 4 directly in front of the galley with a toilet and galley unit blocking her from the crew. IMHO, she was perhaps in the best place as she probably would have been one of the first off assuming she remembered that her nearest exit was behind her!

It is BA procedure that when an evacuation is initiated that the "evac alarm" be sounded however this would only be a brief alarm as the crew are instructed to immediately silence the horn at their respective door in order for the passengers to be able to hear their commands! It is a loud alarm that sounds much like your typical domestic fire alarm but with a lot of people shouting it would be possible not to hear it!

As for no PA's, well I can assure you that there were probably plenty of "ding dongs" going on in the galley in the minutes prior to the evacuation being called as crew and flight deck discussed the situation via the interphones.

Once again to the crew...You did us proud!!! :D


Positionand Hold......also big :D:D:D to your wife for getting back onboard and completing the journey! I suppose its a bit like riding a horse, when you first fall off you just have to get back up and keep going!

[RevMan2]

As for no PA's, well I can assure you that there were probably plenty of "ding dongs" going on in the galley in the minutes prior to the evacuation being called as crew and flight deck discussed the situation via the interphones.

Exactly.

Plenty of "ding dongs"

Which makes people think that something must be up, but - not having a ding-dong dictionary to hand - were unable to determine exactly what.

Very clear communication....

[Smell the Coffee]

RevMan2

There may well be lessons to learn from this event - but as you weren't there on the scene, and all we have to go on is secondary information which may/may not bear any resemblance to what actually happened - it's a tad early to start accusing the crew of failing to communicate properly what was or wasn't going on.

[Icare9]

If you bothered to read the thread properly, THERE is a first hand account as relayed by position & hold. It's a report as she saw it, not as is all too usual on here by posters who throw up every conceivable (and at times some pretty bizarre ideas) as to what really occurred.
People just seem more anxious about getting their comment into a thread instead of ensuring it is contributing to the thread and not detracting.
Whilst there appeared to be a slow start, once the evacuation commenced, it was all handled very professionally, with credit due to all aboard and the ground crew. What appears to be in need of improvement is for better communication, which no doubt will be addressed by the appropriate authorities. It should also address the continued mindless reaction of some pax to bring their luggage when ordered to evacuate, as happened previously in the Hudson ditching.
Let's just be glad that all got off safely.

[FullWings]

I think you have to be careful about prioritizing passenger communications when there are all sorts of other things happening.

Thinking about what might have been going on the flight deck: ATC need to be notified and kept in the loop, the CSD and possibly other crew members close to the action would be on the interphone, the pushback crew/engineer would need to be told what to do. System status would need monitoring, checklists could need to be actioned. When it started looking like an evacuation might be necessary, I'm sure there was some serious discussion and an agreement reached as it is NOT something you order lightly, especially in something the size of a 747.

Yes, in the ideal world, there would be a calm voice explaining what was happening all the time. I suspect that in this incident they were just too busy or regarded it as low priority. After all, if the situation warrants an evacuation you'll get one; if it doesn't, you won't.

One of our trainers had someone do a PA in the sim. recently after an engine fire on takeoff: very good PR and reassuring to the passengers... Apart from the fact they started it at 300' before shutting down the engine! You can go too far to try and please 'the cabin' - I think most people would rather get out intact than have a running commentary if they had to choose between the two...

[cactusbusdrvr]

One thing we do not lack in PHX is bottle water. There would have been a commissary truck loaded with water nearby. Go into any 7-11 or Circle K in Phoenix and buy a beverage. You will see 64 oz sizes for sale for a reason. We can drink 2 litres of fluid and never have to pee in 45 degree (c) heat.

One issue with B 25 is, since it is an international gate, it is very secure from the ramp. It would have taken 15 minutes or so to get ICE (customs) personnel to give permission to open up the rampside to get the people up the stairs into the terminal. Also, it is still over 40 degrees at departure time. The ramp surface is very hot, the low overnight in PHX this time of year is 31C (88 F). I am amazed that there were so few injuries, it shows the slides really do work well.

I bid every northern or coastal city I can in the summer. Off to YYZ tomorrow.

[williamd]

I posted the message below on the Flyertalk forum. I believe it fills in a few blanks.


I was on this flight along with my wife and 2 sons (aged 14 and 11). I was searching the web to see if I could find a story on what was the cause of the fumes/smoke and came across this thread. I have found the comments and opinions very interesting so I thought I would take the opportunity to relay our experience. Hopefully this will answer some of the questions you all have, and no doubt raise others.

We checked in online 24 hours before the flight and got seats in 45D-G. I wanted to get seats in the first economy section (row 28-36) but could not get 4 together in the centre (sidenote - I know BA pre-allocate groups with children and EC members of a certain level can check in earlier but I can never workout why so many seats seem to be gone before check in opens).

On the day of the flight we arrived at the airport about 130 mins before departure time and proceeded to the BA check in desks. The check in line for world traveller was practically empty but the "fast bag drop" queue had about a dozen or so people in front of us. It took about 10 mins to drop the bags and we were informed that the flight was delayed about 25 mins but we would still arrive in Heathrow on time. We went and grabbed a bite to eat then went through security and got to the gate (B25 if I recall) around 7pm. There seemed to be quite a number of TSA staff in the vicinity of the gate, certainly more than I ever recall seeing at any gate in the US before). There were also some police dotted around. My wife commented that something seemed to be going on.

General boarding began around 7.15pm and being near the back our row was in the first group called. Going down the jetway there were a number of people in plain clothes with gold "law enforcement" type badges around their necks, and some TSA staff, including 1 with a sniffer dog (I estimate there were half a dozen or so of these plain clothes people on the jetway). Some passengers were stopped and questioned however we proceeded directly to the plane and our seats. On settling down the first thing I noticed was that it was quite hot on the plane and the AC was obviously not on. About 20-30 mins later the captain announced that the door was closed and we would be on our way in a couple of mins. I believe at this point all passengers were seated and the seat belt check had been done. We pushed back and the engines were turned on.

When the AC came on I turned to my wife and joked that it smelt as if someone had a bad case of diahorrea (sp?) as the smell coming through the AC was unpleasant. She had a cold and at that point could not smell anything. Within a minute or so the smell had became considerably worse and I could see a number of other passengers begin to look around the cabin and at the crew who were by now going up the ailses, sniffing and looking slightly concerned. A few minutes later the smell had increased to the point where people were beginning to cough, babies were crying and it was pretty apparent that something was wrong. By this time I was breathing into my pillow and advised my wife and children to do the same, however my wife was having difficulty breathing and she was beginning to panic. A number of people by this time had undone their seatbelts and had began to stand up. Some even moved forward in the cabin towards the front of the plane. The cabin crew from what I could see did not ask them to re-take their seats.

The following all happened within about 2-3 minutes:

The captain came on the PA and announced that they had detected an unusual odor in the cabin and that he would be shutting down the engines and we would be getting towed back to the stand and said cabin crew doors to manual. I am pretty sure at that point the AC seemed to go off but cannot be certain. Some people were still having breathing issues and a PA announcement advised passengers to use the headrest covers to breathe into. By now even more people had stood up and some were removing items from overhead bins and seatback pockets. Again some moved towards the front of the aircraft. I am not sure if it was a PA announcement but some crew member was telling people to re-take their seats. On the left ailse (looking from the rear) a guy came into the rear cabin and shouted "nobody come this way there is a fire". This created a bit of a panic amongst the passengers and most by now had stood up and were trying to get out of their seats. The captain then came on and announced " cabin crew doors to automatic" and a few seconds later "emergency evacuation, emergency evacuation, right hand side of the aircraft only". An alarm was going off and there was a whooshing sound. I grabbed my family and we headed to the exit at the rear (we had already grabbed our hand luggage when the announcement about going back to the stand was made). There was a lot of pushing and people were yelling and screaming, I looked forward and saw that only a few people were at the next exit (forward of our seats) so I directed my family to that one. Our way to the exit was held up by someone leaning back into their seat reaching into the seatback. My wife asked them what they were doing and they said they were getting a book. I yelled at them to get out the f*&%ing way. We got to the exit and the crew were yelling "jump, jump". I made sure my wife and kids were away then I jumped onto the slide. When I reached the bottom I got my family and we made our way as fast as possible away from the plane as far as possible. Some passengers were standing near the aircraft taking pictures and I shouted at one to stop being so f&%*ing stupid that the plane might be on fire.

We got about 100 yards from the plane but a runway was nearby and the other gates had planes at them so we couldn't go any further. Sirens were going on all around and lights could be seen tearing down both sides of the runway. Police arrived and they asked us to move back nearer the main crowd. I questioned why we should move back towards an aircraft that may be on fire but was told that we were standing on a live taxiway and were too near the runway. We reluctantly moved back to the edges of the crowd.

I would estimate that it appeared to take no more than 3 mins to get everybody off the plane.

Cabin crew and firemen were now coming around asking if anybody was injured or required treatment. I asked why no transport was being sent to get us out the way but no-one could answer. My wife had a couple of burns on her hand from the slide and I had burnt my elbow, otherwise we were fine.

About 20 mins later we were asked to walk back into the terminal via a door under the gate. We walked throught immigration (I joked to someone that surely we wouldn't need to fill in the waiver and customs forms again) and we walked through the bag reclaim and customs then eventually into the main terminal where we were greeted with TV camera's!

The rest was just what you would expect, chaos, with most BA groundstaff having left already. About 11pm we checked into the Crown Plaza hotel compliments of BA. We had been told that there was no information on when checked baggage would be available as the chutes were in the way of the hold access and the fire department were not allowing access. Hand luggage had been brought to the bag reclaim about 10.30pm. Speaking to a woman at the hotel who had been on the plane she said the she was seated in row 33 and that smoke had been coming out from behind her son's seat.
No flames were seen.

We had been advised to call 1-800-airways in the morning. I called about 8am and was advised we were being rebooked on UA370 to Denver the BA218 to London. My final destination was Edinburgh and I was informed that the only flights to EDI available were from London City! (£115 BA owe me for a taxi fare).

Sorry for the long winded report but I wanted to try and relay the events in as much detail as possible. A few observations:

Something was definitely going on before we boarded, with all the TSA and other badged guys and sniffer dogs about. I have travelled extensively to the US and never seen this before.

When it was apparent that the smell was not normal it took too long in my opinion before it was decided to return to the gate (about 10 mins in my estimation). People were having difficulty breathing, not bad enough to pass out, but in a confined space like a plane it was a dangerous and volatile situation.

I read the report from the passenger in row 43 who stated that a passenger opened a door on the left side of the plane - I have no idea if this happened however she appears to be stating that this was at least a 30 secs to a minute before the rest of the doors were opened. All I can say is I never heard any commotion or such like. She states that there was no official announcement - as I stated an emergency evacuation was ordered by the captain.

I am not sure of the procedures but I am sure the captain ordered doors to manual when announcing we would be going back to the stand. Then doors to automatic seconds before announcing the evac.

I am still surprised that there seemed to be no emergency procedures in place when the plane was emptied, we were all milling on the tarmac for what seemed ages. All I could think of was fire-fuel, bad combination, although I also assumed there would be some sort of safety system to stop any fire spreading to the fuel.

When we went back into the terminal we were all just hanging around the BA check in area. I cannot believe that BA/Sky Harbour don't have some sort of disaster procedure, or at least a big room where all passengers could be addressed.

Hope this fills in some of the blanks and explains why some people had hand baggage with them. (Once it was announced we were going back to the stand a lot of people near me grabbed their stuff). I am pretty sure the smell was not too bad in some parts of the plane so this may explain why some people had left their bags onboard).

It is very easy to say from outside what you would have done in this situation, all I can say is I believe I remained fairly calm although I was very concerned when the guy shouted there's a fire. Everybody reacts differently in a crisis. There was definitely a level of panic in the rear of the plane around us. Someone commented earlier in the thread that as no one had been treated for breathing difficulties there should have been no panic. All I can say is the fumes were catching in my throat and I had to breathe into my pillow. Others, including my wife, had tears from the fumes and were coughing quite badly.

All in all it was a very scary situation. The crew looked very scared and when the captain announced the evacuation there was a high level of tension in his voice.

Hopefully we will never have to go through it again!!

[HotDog]

Hopefully we will never have to go through it again!!

If you do, hopefully you'll leave your carry on baggage behind when ordered to evacuate.:rolleyes:

[williamd]

Appreciate your concern, sarcastic or otherwise.

FYI when we were advised that we were going back to the stand we gathered up our bags that were to hand. When the emergency evac was declared our stuff was already in hand and I didn't think it was wise to start looking for somewhere to dump it. All we had were a couple of small backpacks.

I am not a pilot (which I assume you worked out) but have flown over 300,000 miles so would describe myself as a frequent flyer, not some sort of idiot. There were a lot of scared people on this plane and the crew took far too long to come to a decision. Wouldn't it be more sensible to comment on that?

[eng123]

williamd, You said you were looking for information as to what happened. It sounds to me as though one of the engines has probably suffered an internal bearing failure and engine oil has found it's way via the pneumatic ducts into the air conditioning system so resulting in smoke and fumes in the cabin.

[BryceM]

Come on. First priority is to get passengers and crew to safety. 'Notify ATC'? give me a break.

This incident seems to me to be in the grand tradition of failed communication between the cabin and the flight deck, with the result that the pilots were unaware of the seriousness of the situation (ie that the fumes were serious enough to warrant an evacuation, rather than return to stand).

The point of this sort of incident is not that it ended reasonably well, but that the same actions would have had a very poor outcome if there had been fire as well as fumes. Several minutes of delay, poor communications and indecision could have resulted in a body count.

Evacuation of a 747 is not to be taken lightly, as you say. But it should be done decisively, positively and in a timely fashion. Lucky this time...

[jimjim1]

Thing about the bags is that for many people it may represent an enormous difficulty to replace the contents. I don't mean cameras, or a bit of money. However, all credit/bank cards, all money, passport, driving license, mobile phone, contacts book... Everything except say a few paper hankies, some mints and $3.50 in change. It has been my practise when travelling to put all critical material in my carry on bag and to look after it very carefully.

Perhaps the airlines should advise passengers to ensure that they have such items in a moneybelt or similar? The prospect of being trapped in an airport in some random country, without any resouces at all, at some random time of the day or night, without any clue as to what help might be offered is quite scary to me. Of course death is quite scary too! I can appreciate why some passengers are tempted to take their stuff. I feel *certain* that no airline will look more favourably on any passenger who altruistically abandoned their stuff, against another passenger who is fully equipped with their critical kit.

It is the old "tragedy of the commons". It will make *no* practical difference to *me* if I take my stuff so I may as well. Of course if 199 other people take their stuff and I have to wait behind them then it *will* make a difference to me, however I cannot do anything about them so I may as well look after No. 1.

[Graybeard]

Like I wrote on the other evac thread, an advertised $10K penalty for carrying a hand carry item down an evac slide would give perspective of value.

In a panic evac, things can get snagged in doorways, etc., wasting precious seconds.

GB

[bigjames]

thanks for taking the time and effort to find this site and post a detailed first hand account that does indeed answer many questions about this event. (ie PA or no PA etc).
while i agree 100% about the handcarry on evac i think it is a bit petty going after this new contributor for that one issue after his input!
(not aimed at you GB)

[concernedsaffa]

Both accounts agree that passengers were left standing within 100 yards of a 747 loaded with fuel for 20 minutes, but none of the responses from the flying pros have addressed this issue. So here is a straight question to all the in-the-know flying personnel: what is the safe distance at which you would stand to watch a potentially burning, fueled-up 747?

[llondel]

Both accounts agree that passengers were left standing within 100 yards of a 747 loaded with fuel for 20 minutes, but none of the responses from the flying pros have addressed this issue.

Someone mentioned that it's an issue with customs and immigration not allowing them back in, so it's beyond the authority of the aircraft crew.

Given how close to the terminal it was, I suspect a serious fire would have had much wider consequences anyway.

[williamd]

I have tried to provide a detailed version of what transpired, as best as I can recall, with some input from my wife, from my position in the rear cabin.

I have read twice now, apparently from different sources, that some people got off the plane without hearing the emergency evacuation command. This leads me to believe that a cabin crew member, on seeing smoke presumably, did indeed open the door before the evac order was given from the cockpit. This may in fact have been what led to the evac being called.

I would be very interested in hearing professional opinions on this incident, especially in relation to the procedures that should have been followed in comparison to the way it played out. Also if anyone else was on the plane it would be very interesting to hear their comments/version.

Please leave aside comments on hand baggage. Fortunately taking hand baggage off the plane did not cause any major issues in this instance. I fully appreciate it could have, but I believe I have explained clearly why some people had their bags with them.

[DartHerald]

Having been through a high speed rejected take off and subsequent emergency exit down the slides from a DC10, I can sympathise greatly with the people contributing here who were on the a/c or whose family were onboard.

It is one thing to have SOP's for such situations, it is another to deal with the practicalities and numerous varied circumstances inter-twining with individual crew and passenger reaction.

This sounds a very unpleasent incident to have gone through for both crew and passengers alike which was accentuated by the uncertainty of what was happening, i.e. why was there the smell/smoke and therefore how to deal with it. Hopefully lessons will be learned but I suspect that no training manual will ever be able to deal with all possible scenarios and therefore common sense will often be a major attribute.

Finally I would add my concerns regarding being so close to the aircraft once evacuated. In my own incident we were all left standing near the aircraft at the end of the runway with no-one telling us what to do or where to go. This is perhaps something the airfield operator should be responsible for as they are in the best position to control all movements around the affected area?

[FullWings]

BryceM,
Come on. First priority is to get passengers and crew to safety. 'Notify ATC'? give me a break.
Well, how else are the airport fire services going to know about your problem? If you hadn't yet made the decision to evacuate, a quick PAN call to ATC might save lives if you did catch on fire later on. If you were evacuating, a 5-sec MAYDAY would be useful, too.

This incident seems to me to be in the grand tradition of failed communication between the cabin and the flight deck, with the result that the pilots were unaware of the seriousness of the situation (ie that the fumes were serious enough to warrant an evacuation, rather than return to stand).
Going by the above personal account, it appears that there was plenty of communication going on, including a PA by the Captain. During the return to stand, information was received that led to an evacuation command.

The point of this sort of incident is not that it ended reasonably well, but that the same actions would have had a very poor outcome if there had been fire as well as fumes. Several minutes of delay, poor communications and indecision could have resulted in a body count.
If there *had* been a fire in the cabin, I'm sure an evacuation would have been initiated very quickly indeed, possibly independently by the cabin crew. I don't think their desire to remain on board a burning aircraft is any greater than that of the passengers? As (by all indications) there wasn't, there was some thinking time available.

Whenever an evacuation is commanded, you know there is a high risk of serious injuries, even deaths occurring. This has to be balanced against against your perception of how bad the situation might become on board. For smoke/fumes that appears to be coming from the AC, switching off packs/bleeds/engines/apu might be all you need to do to stabilise the situation. If it doesn't work you can boot everyone off but always in the back of your mind are the non-reversible and potentially injurous qualities of evacuation procedures. Believe me, if we jumped out of aircraft every time someone smelt something funny, we'd never get airborne.

[Rainboe]

Right, an evacuation would NOT take place without the alarm going off. A procedure is to evacuate using public address followed by activation of the alarm. The alarm horn is cancelled by the crew to prevent panic and so shouted commands can be heard. The 747 cabin is large. The crew are by the doors. It is not inconceivable most people simply couldn´t hear it.

Once outside, what was the danger? It appears the problem was caused by acrid smoke, probably within the aircon system. I have had such an incident myself, which was kept low grade, evac by the door and up the jetty. The situation was being monitored internally and externally. There was less risk keeping people nearby than getting them spread out over all the apron and lost. Unless visible signs of fire are present, there is no risk. Had any flames appeared, people would have moved away. It was contained. It seems to me, the situation was extremely well handled. You do not initiate a full evacuation lightly- it must be carefully controlled from the flight deck relying on all sources of information, internal and external.

Once again , we have a well handled situation being sniped at by instant self appointed 'experts' here. Right now a very comprehensive review is being undertaken by BA management who are experts in this sort of event. They will cover all aspects. By all means ask, but don´t come out with self dreamt up theories and criticisms on why things happened as they did. I have been through all this training which was executed here. They did what they did well.

[williamd]

With all due respect to the poster above, there is no point in comparing the incident you were involved with and this incident. I was there and can say that even though I never saw smoke the impression was something was burning. The smell got considerably worse over a 10 min period before it was decided to return to the stand. During this time passengers were increasingly finding it difficult to breathe.

If the plane had reached the jetway and the front door was opened can you imagine the carnage if people had then spotted smoke! No point in announcing over the PA "don't worry chaps, it's just an AC problem and there is nothing to be concerned about". That may be the SOP but in a real life crisis people's survival instincts kick in. Far better to get people off in the chutes than attempt to put 300 panicking passengers through 1 door at the front.

[Potential]

I was on BA288 on the night of the evacuation so I can clear up some of the uncertainties and expand on what P&H and WD have said. I have a CPL, I’m about to start my IR and I’ve previously worked as cabin crew so I’m in quite a good position to comment on the incident.



It seemed a little while before the decision was taken to deploy the slides

I'd agree with this. By the time we evacuated the smell had got pretty bad and it was very irritating to the throat, nose and eyes. Many people including myself had started to cough and choke and understandably people with young children were getting very concerned.


It had left the gate but had not reached the holding point (and it's a very short taxi). Very acrid smoke was coming from the rear of the passenger cabin (galley, maybe??) and some young children were carried forward because of this smoke. I understand the smoke had something of a peroxide-type smell.

Most of this is correct. I had noticed the odd smell before we pushed back, but it got increasingly worse after push back. A few mins into the taxi one of the flight crew came onto the PA and said that they were heading back to the terminal because they were getting a bad smell. I was a bit surprised by this comment as it implied that they were unaware that the whole aircraft was equally affected by the smell. I was part of a large group that was spread all over the aircraft in every class so I can confirm this. Since everyone was getting the smell, I assume that the gas was circulating through the air conditioning system. As we taxied back one of the crew suggested over the PA that we use the headrest covers to cover our mouth.

The smell got increasingly worse and there was some blue flashing, which I initially I thought was a camera flash, but one of my colleagues later confirmed that it was sparks. Immediately after the sparking, smoke started to rise up from around 34ABC, just to my left and one row behind. I later spoke to a couple who were supposed to sit on these seats and they told me that they were moved because the IFEs were inop so this may be a significant factor.


all the door slides were deployed, it appeared.

This is incorrect. All of the photos and videos show the right hand side of the aircraft, where it is true that all the slides deployed correctly. However none of the slides on the left were successfully deployed.

When the smoke started, I immediately made my way to the left overwing exit. When I reached it, the door was opened, but there was no crew in sight and the slide was not deployed, so it is possible that it had been opened by another pax and was not set to automatic. I looked around for the manual inflation, but I couldn’t find it. Eventually a crewmember appeared, but she also couldn’t get the slide inflated. In the end I exited out of the right overwing. There was a man with an artificial leg using this exit who was having some difficulty so I spent over a minute standing on the walkway above the wing and I was one of the last pax to get off the plane.

Later when we walked into the terminal, I noticed that on the left hand side, only one slide had deployed (possibly L1), but it was not inflated. There was some ground equipment and the air bridge to the left, but I don’t think they were that close that they would have impeded the use of the left slides.


i understand that a fire on a fully fueled aircraft is a very scary thing but was it really necessary given the jetbridge was still in place?
We had taxied out and back to the stand, but the bridge was not in place. I think the situation was serious enough to warrant a quicker evacuation than would have been possible by reconnecting the air bridge. There may have been more panic if the only way out was through one door and everyone was pushing forward to get out the same way.


1. What was the "smoke state" in the cabin?
- was visibility impaired: 5m / 1m?
- where did it get to in terms of breathe-ability: choking?

2. Do you ( &/ your wife) think the correct decision was taken this time?
- and was this done too late / too soon?
1) Initially there was just the acrid smell, which was very uncomfortable and made breathing difficult. It was sore on the throat, nose and eyes and caused coughing and choking. Visibility was only slightly impaired by the smoke, as we evacuated soon after the smoke began appearing and it was not that thick. I’m told by one of my colleagues that while I was trying to inflate the left overwing slide, one of the cabin crew deployed a BCF in the area where the smoke was coming from, which reduced the amount of smoke that was being produced.

2) I would have liked to see us getting out quicker. I don’t think it was necessary for us to wait until we got back to the terminal before we evacuated. The situation was serious enough to warrant an evacuation earlier. Furthermore there was never an actual evacuation command given by the crew, as I was moving towards the exit to try to inflate the slide, many people were still sitting in their seats with their seatbelts on.


How did the ground staff handle the accomadation problem?

They got there eventually, but they were understaffed and it was a very slow process. My group of nearly 20 were initially told that we couldn’t all get a room. It was a case of computer says no, but when we persuaded them to try again, computer finally said yes. The evacuation was just before 8pm local time and it was 2am by the time we reached the hotel.

I missed a connection from Heathrow and in the morning when I turned up for attempt two at getting to the UK, the staff at Phoenix refused to try rebooking me on another BA flight beyond Heathrow. Luckily we travelled through Denver on the way to Heathrow and a very lovely woman there was more helpful. She got me on standby for the first flight to my destination with a confirmed seat on the next, as well as a very generous amount of food/drink vouchers for use at Denver Airport and I was also upgraded for the Trans-Atlantic flight.


My concern would be the report that folks were taking their bags down the slides.

Though I didn’t personally see anybody go down the slides with bags, it was evident from the amount of luggage out on the apron that many had taken their bags. Some of the cabin crew could have been a bit more vocal with their commands. The crewmember at the door I eventually used was not saying a word. In another part of the cabin some of my colleagues, who are also former cabin crew, were directing pax during the evacuation and they stopped a number of people from taking their bags.



I'm quite surprised nobody has picked up on the fifteen or twenty minutes all the passengers spent standing around out on the ramp comparatively close to the aircraft, watching the fire crews arrive and investigate??

This did concern me, more so how close we were rather than how long we waited though.


"emergency evacuation, emergency evacuation, right hand side of the aircraft only"

This was not audible in the part of the cabin where I was and of all the others in my group that I've asked, none of them heard this either.

[Lauderdale]

Potential

Many thanks for your post - informative, factual and written from a professional perspective, one of the best on this site for sure.

So having read your post it leaves me with the one key question:

Furthermore there was never an actual evacuation command given by the crew, as I was moving towards the exit to try to inflate the slide, many people were still sitting in their seats with their seatbelts on.

Which door was opened first and by whom? And was this the trigger for all the events that followed?

[williamd]

To "Potential" above.

There was a group of about 12 or so guys and 2/3 girls who I saw at Phoenix before boarding, all with flight cases. I guessed they were trainee pilots.

I was in the rear cabin, seated at 45E, and there was deifnitely an evacuation ordered and it sounded to me to be the captain although it could have been another member of the crew. There was an alarm, a "nnnnnn-nnnnnnn-nnnnnnnn" sound.

[angels]

My thoughts entirely Lauderdale!

william - think you should edit your post.

[Potential]

If WD and Lauderdale could please remove the speculation about my name and destination from their posts, I'd much appreciate that.

[williamd]

removed by poster

[Graybeard]

This reminds me of the Air Canada DC-9 about 30 years ago. A fire started in the aft lav, and in the 20 or so minutes it took to get on the ground and evacuated, 22 people were dead. From the burning interior materials, all had fatal levels of cyanide in their blood.

Blood tests of those on the flight would be worthwhile.

If the IFE, In Fright Entertainment, box under 34ABC were shorted and cooking, it's possible that killed the PA to several sections of the cabin. IFE is an afterthought in airliner design, and is often retrofitted with the latest and greatest to match the competition. Since it is classed as nonessential equipment, it doesn't get the same level of safety analysis as the avionics downstairs and in the cockpit. Not to mention SR111.

The PA is at least at the safety level of Essential. It's even live when the plane is down to running on batteries. It's possible in this case there wasn't enough isolation between the PA and the IFE.

When I first got peripherally involved with IFE a dozen years ago, I was shocked to learn they pipe 115vac to every seat group, and those seat boxes get very hot. It never should have taken that level of waste heat to deliver 100 milliwatts of audio to 3 seats. The stuff on BA should be more efficient than that, but apparently not.

GB

[williamd]

No problem, done. Sorry for any inconvenience.

I got the right guy then.

Interesting to hear your story, luckily we never saw any sparks or smoke, if we had my wife would have totally freaked. I did see one of your colleagues come into the rear cabin and shout "don't come in here there is a fire" (or words to that effect).

As a trained professional what was your mind state at the point of seeing smoke?

My brother is a captain with Airtours/My Travel (Now TC) and he told me he once had sparks in the cockpit and had to put goggles on and call a mayday. Said it was very terrifying despite all the training/sims. I haven't had a chance to speak to him since I got back but I will discuss it with him asap.

[ankh]

You probably want to change the above to refer to only one SSSSSSSS person and only one whose name starts with ZZZZZZZ in your class. Sheesh. What is the device that wasn't working, emitted blue sparks, and had caused people to be moved from their seats earlier? You used a three letter acronym above

[Potential]

Which door was opened first and by whom? And was this the trigger for all the events that followed?

I don't know which door was opened first. It appears from William's post that the rear cabin may have heard an evacuation call so it is possible that the cabin crew also heard this over the interphone or were alerted by some other means not evident to passengers who are unaware of BAs emergency procedures.

I was in the rear cabin, seated at 45E, and there was deifnitely an evacuation ordered and it sounded to me to be the captain although it could have been another member of the crew. There was an alarm, a "nnnnnn-nnnnnnn-nnnnnnnn" sound.

This PA was not heard by myself or any of my colleagues. About the the only part of the cabin that we didn't have someone sitting in was the rear cabin so it is possible that the whole PA system was affected forward of where the sparking/smoke was. On thinking back I may have heard the alarm, but I assumed this to be a smoke alarm.


As a trained professional what was your mind state at the point of seeing smoke?
My immediate reaction was to get a fire extinguisher, but since I was not familiar with the locations or the operation of the equipment on BA 747s, I thought I would try to get one of the doors opened and help people out instead. I was never overly panicked as I was happy that we were on the ground. If we had been in the air, it could have been much more serious, especially if we were mid-Atlantic.

I think that overall it was a good experience to be involved in a successful evacuation with only minor injuries. Later on at the hotel, I spoke to the only passenger who was hospitalised and he was going to be fine.


What is the device that wasn't working, emitted blue sparks, and had caused people to be moved from their seats earlier?
IFE stands for in-flight entertainment, in other words the TV screen.

[williamd]

Potential -

I have read another person's report who stated that the door on the left was opened by a passenger and that the door on the right over the wing was the first to be opened. Some people appear to have got out before the evac announcement and the alarm went off, it appears for maybe up to 1 min before the other chutes were deployed. Do you think that happened?

[Potential]

That seems like a plausible explanation William. That would explain why the left door was opened with no slide when I reached it. If it had been opened by a pax then they would not have known to check if the slide was set to automatic. If the pilots had deemed that the ground equipment on the left was too close, it may have been possible for them to disable the manual inflation too, but I'm not sure about this. This would explain why the ccm that came to the door could also not get the slide inflated. However, it seems that, like me, she was unaware that the pilots had said the evacuation was only to be on the right side and it doesn't explain why there wasn't already a crewmember at the door. By the time she arrived, I think the right overwing was already opened.

[RatherBeFlying]

If an IFE was making smoke and fumes, would the CC have a way to remove the power?

Maybe even there should be an accessible breaker on the seat:=

[Charlie Pop]

Yes. The IFE power can be removed by the cabin crew.

[overstress]

The incident will be fully investigated and the result, with recommendations, published for all to see. Then even the passengers who were on board, who think they know what happened, will find out what actually happened.

The crew has been debriefed and the investigation has already begun.

[AnthonyGA]

Passengers are just as good at thinking as crew members are.

[Potential]

Overstress, I'm well aware that there will be a full investigation. I would like to think that all the pax would be included in this process, but I'm not sure if this will be the case. In order to build up a complete understanding of events onboard everyone who was present should be debriefed.

[williamd]

I assume by the comments above that the investigation findings will be made public. Any idea of a timescale?

With regards to your comment about the passengers, I personally do not proclaim to know what happened. I just wanted to relay my experience to help fill in the blanks on the speculation and conjecture.

[DartHerald]

What would perhaps be useful is for not only the crew to be debriefed but some of the pax as well.

The CAA, airlines and crews could well benefit from such input as what an airline THINKS might happen in such a situation is not the same as the passengers think.

The 'them & us' attitude of some crew might improve if constructive comments such as some of those provided by actual pasengers were taken onboard?

Just a thought like :ok:

[TheTsunami]

WD,

prelim reports sometimes don't take that long (months), but the final report could easily take a year. In my case (ref 737 earlier in this thread) it's stil under investigation.

Good luck waiting and I relate to your brother and you and your family. Smoke on board, real smoke, is something you do not want to relive twice!

Greetz,

Tsunami

[overstress]

Passengers will be contacted and interviewed, I'm sure.

Yes, passengers are as good at thinking as anyone else, but that isn't the point.

Many passengers see things and do not understand their meaning, equally, there are some who are trained.

I am a 747 pilot, if I had been in that cabin I wouldn't have known much either, and I may not have heard the evac alarm if it was cancelled quickly.

It's a long way from the flight deck to the alleges smoke source, it takes a while to assimilate the info being passed by interphone and come to a sensible decision.

BA's current safety training is concentrating on evacuation drills, I have just done it, a full exercise in the cabin mockup is undertaken with debrief afterwards.

[sudden twang]

This is a very interesting topic .

Thanks to potential/williamd for their first hand accounts .

A couple of points from a flight crew perspective .

As has been stated the decision to evacuate cannot be taken lightly the cabin crew have for sensible reasons strict criteria as to when they can individually initiate an evacuation themselves.

Passengers unilaterally initiating an evacuation themselves could have disastrous consequences ( engines running / exhausts / wheel fire are just a few ).

Communication between flight and cabin crew is vital the captain cannot possibly know the exact extent of the threat immediately in a rapidly deteriorating situation .

When distractions are present hearing is one the first senses to be lost also PA speakers are mounted below the overhead storage ( mostly ) so people standing in the cabin are less likely to hear PAs especially if there is noise in the cabin. Williamds' evidence would support a PA was made and that the flight crew were conducting a logical decision making process whlst balancing the risk of injury during an unnecessary evacuation . Its a judgement call and it seems to me to have gone just about right.

Ironically the present refresher for 747 BA flight crew involves uncontrolled smoke in the cabin leading to an evacuation but from the downwind position in low visibilty procs. rather than during taxi out . I'll put it into my lesson plan from now on .

We can all be experts after the event and this incident will no doubt hone SOPs in a time critical environment .

It's great everyone got away with only minor injuries / inconvenience ( although not inconsiderable )

[Madbob]

I'm an ex-military pilot so forgive my lack of knowledge in the civvy AT world but as a fairly frequent flyer still as SLF I have a fairly straight forward question to ask.

As SLF I try and sit next, or at least close, to an emergency exit. I pay attention to the briefing and try to be "aware" as to what's going on around me.

Many on these exits are not "manned" by a member of the cabin crew and the pax (me) is briefed how to open the door/window.

My philosophy has been to lead rather than to follow - it's in my training so if faced with the situation in Phoenix I would like to say that I would have made it 100% clear to the cabin crew that there was a problem. And faced with in-decision/in-action on their part I would have no hesitation when fumes/smoke (or whatever) made breathing/seeing difficult in opening said exit on my own initiative.

The question is, is the cabin crew permitted to initiate an evacuation without being instructed by the flight deck? If so, what are the circumstances and what would be the repercussions for the crew by senior management for doing so in a case like this? Would they be praised or hung out to dry? Not an easy decision I'd admit but I'd prefer to have a switched-on crew down the back, able to make whatever decision needed - and justify it afterwards - rather than "sheep". Judging by the eyewitness accounts it can't have been very pleasant for the pax.

MB

[Uncle_Jay]

You guys criticize the 'fly-by media' (if I may borrow and mangle a phrase) constantly for publishing half-truths and conjecture, but now we have 5 in-house pages of it and counting. If we in-the-know can't hold our tongues how can we expect the TV stations to do better ?

Where to get 300 bottles of water, indeed. Inquiring minds...

[williamd]

I have a burn/abrasion on my elbow I believe caused by the slide. Not particularly painful but in a spot that makes it irritating as every time I lean on my elbow it annoys. I was actually shown on the local news getting my elbow taped and it is now on youtube. Must have 14 mins 55 secs of fame left.
My wife has a sizable burn blister on her hand, still present after almost 4 days later. She says she has had worse from ironing.

[Flap62]

Madbob,

Excellent to know there are such strong leaders not afraid to take matters into their own hands. Next time you have any doubts just crack on and self-evacuate. It will be interesting to see what you look like when you've been spat out the back of a running RB211. Don't know why airlines bother teaching expensive SEP modules when the passengers can do it better themselves.

Oh, and paranoid - if it was one of your mates who shouted out about a fire on board, give them a slap from me. The last thing needed at a time like that are panic merchants. Even if there is a fire, when is shouing about it going to do anything else than make the situation worse when the crew are trying to deal with it?

[Human Factor]

I assume by the comments above that the investigation findings will be made public. Any idea of a timescale?

The AAIB will no doubt publish a report in due course. It normally takes three or four months. Keep a look out HERE (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/index.cfm).

My philosophy has been to lead rather than to follow - it's in my training so if faced with the situation in Phoenix I would like to say that I would have made it 100% clear to the cabin crew that there was a problem. And faced with in-decision/in-action on their part I would have no hesitation when fumes/smoke (or whatever) made breathing/seeing difficult in opening said exit on my own initiative.

Well, I'd hesitate and make damned sure I wasn't about to send my initiative into the vicinity of a running engine first. The evacuation alarm will (hopefully) not be triggered until the engines are shut down. For example, if smoke was being generated by an electical fault, isolating that fault could stop the smoke. You deploying a slide into a running engine would make matters significantly worse. Your philosophy should be to wait until people with more information than you about the situation make a considered decision. Boeing 747s are not evacuated lightly. Part of the decision making process involves considering that there is a significant chance that passengers may be killed or seriously injured during the evacuation itself. Thankfully it didn't happen in this case.

The question is, is the cabin crew permitted to initiate an evacuation without being instructed by the flight deck? If so, what are the circumstances and what would be the repercussions for the crew by senior management for doing so in a case like this? Would they be praised or hung out to dry?

Within BA, the crew can open the exits without instruction in a "catastrophic" emergency. In practice, this is essentially when the pilots have been incapacitated. In this incident, it would not have been permitted and there would undoubtedly be significant repercussions were it to have occurred.

[apaddyinuk]

Potential

I am a little bit concerned by your description of both your and your groups interaction in all of this. Can you confirm that you were directly helping the BA cabin crew or where you taking a cavalier approach by taking the situation into your own control? I appreciate you are learning to be a commercial pilot but remember...YOU ARE JUST LEARNING and you clearly have yet to undergo your CRM training, or if not...maybe you need to take it again.
I am concerned that you were tempted to go and get a BCF yourself. What would that have achieved if you could not see flames? Do you have any idea how much panic your colleague may have caused by entering the rear cabin and shouting "dont come in here there is a fire" etc etc. Why could you all not just leave the highly trained and far more experienced BA crew continue with what they were doing? Please clear up this little grey areas if you can.

Williamd,
Interesting first hand account. As for the TSA/Security people prior to when you boarded. BA is one of the only remaining european airlines serving PHX (Not sure but I think LH have or are pulling out) and always attracts the huge number of TSA staff as it is sort of a training flight for them. So in answer to your suspicions...no, they was probably nothing going on, they were just looking for something to do. If you think PHX was bad you should see MIA on occasion.
You were wrong to get your luggage, to turn around and swear at a passenger for getting their book was simple hypocriscy. When you went back on stand you could have been on the aircraft for ages (regardless of a situation or not) so there was really no need to join the mob who got up and clamoured for their luggage but at the same time, I suppose its an easy mistake to make.

Often in situations like this the worst cause of injury are the passengers. I would imagine that no communication was made to the cabin as if it had done it would have created hysteria which in itself could have caused serious injury. From what I can read into this it would appear that the crew called an evacuation at the correct time.

I too have heard that a passenger did indeed open an exit on the left which was not manned (BA have a policy that when an aircraft is on stand each pair of doors needs to only be manned by one crew member so that the other crew member may be freed up for duties or in this case I would imagine they were info running)was opened by a passenger despite the pleads from the crew member on the otherside not to do it. This is scary as that person may have little consideration for their own safety but the sad fact is that by opening that door others may have followed into a hazard! I am amazed with all the pushing and shoving that takes place that no one fell out of the gaping whole as the door was not armed (therefore no manual inflation handle visible as it is attached to the girt bar which is only fixed when in automatic).

All in all it would appear that the BA crew did an exceptional job in a rapidly changing situation. I wouldnt be surprised if we learn that the only reason an evacuation was called was simply because someone did open a door when they shouldnt have and this would have given the captain the impression that the situation was deteriorating rapidly. But that is mere speculation on my part.

As for inaudible PAs, its possible and very much so on the 747. Not ideal, infact kind of scary but I would ask those sitting in D zone (the area where Potential was sitting) if they heard any boarding PA's?

The fact that you were kept in such a closely knit space on the ground beside the aircraft is a bit scary and far from ideal.I seriously hope that this is addressed by the PHX airport authorities as passengers should have been lead at least 100ms upwind of the aircraft in any situation (unless there is a brick wall in the way)!

As for Potential and Williamd, just a bit of constructive criticism, dont take it personally, especially considering I was not there! LOL. Anyway, it is too late now. Fair play to you for in general remaining calm and not being afraid to get back onboard and complete the journey!

[bunkrest]

Madbob - In answer to your question and as former c crew - yes the cabin crew can initiate an evacuation without command from the flight crew.

However and this is a big however the situation has to clearly warrant it - heavy smoke in the cabin, fuselage breaks, fire etc etc. I remember one of the sep trainers once saying that if you need to ask "should I?" then you shouldn't. This appears to be a definate "should I" situation, very unclear and rapidly changing.

If you did iniaite an evac without good reason then yes, you would be in trouble - the last thing you want onboard is a crewmember who reaches for the door at the least sign of a problem.

In my experience I've only had a couple of 'near squeaks' where evacuation was a possibility. Once coming in from BKK with a hydraulic problem (can't elaborate because my tec knowlede is next to nil!) but the upshot was the fire crew would meet the A/C on the ground and there was a possibility of light smoke entering the cabin - we were briefed not to evac unless the situation deteriorated markedly, the call being ours.

As it transpired no smoke, no fire, no evacuation and one very relieved crew member!

[Potential]

I am a trained CCM and so are 4 of the others who were with me. As I said, I decided to leave the BCF to one of the operating crew and they thanked some of my colleagues for their constructive help in shouting relevant commands to other pax.

I'm not sure who initially made the call "fire, fire, fire" but I would say that whoever did it made the correct decision. The SEP training that I received taught us in that the first instance, the best thing to do is to make the crew that are around you aware of the fire and the fastest way to do this is to shout fire. That way someone else who is near an interphone can inform the flight deck and someone else can bring the necessary fire fighting equipment if it is not immediately to hand at the site of the fire.

I believe it was one of my colleagues that went back and told the passengers further back not to come forward and again he was praised for this by the crew.

[bunkrest]

"the best thing to do is to make the crew that are around you aware of the fire and the fastest way to do this is to shout fire."

Please tell me you are joking......

[Flap62]

OK Mr trained cabin crew Potential. try this scenario.

Your mates runs in and shouts fire - panic ensues and a crush develops at the door as the passengers rush to get away. In the crush 8 people are killed. The subsequent investigation discovers that the cause of the smoke was an overheating fan bearing which had already been shut down as part of the flight deck crew's reaction to the situation. There never was a fire - only smoke.

Who is going to thank your friend then?

[Someone_Else]

bunkrest... Please tell me you are joking......

I'm sorry, I may have mis-understood your post.

Isn't it obvious. As somone who has received numerous fire training packages at different work premises, alerting those around you that there is a fire is the number one priority and shouting is a quick method of doing so!

Why should this be any different on a plane? It's the cabin crews primary responsibilty to hear this and take appropriate action, including reducing any "panic" that might ensue.

Please tell us that you are joking???

[sudden twang]

Potential

Some fairly direct comments here it's nice to see that you remain pragmatic and calm.

Shouting " fire" IMHO would probably cause more probs than it would solve .

The real issue is that , as has been pionted out, action by passengers could easily create more danger . What if the fumes had been from a main gear wheel bearing on the left hand side ? the fumes could well go into the pack inlets causing smoke /fumes in the cabin . Opening a door on the left hand side could allow flames fumes directly into the cabin .

Bottom line ,if the cabin crew are not initiating an evac with their trained procs. neither should the passengers .

It is v important the captain keeps all parties in the loop but NOT when he/she is in the middle of dealing with the situation .

[Flap62]

Someone else

1. Because there was no indication of fire at this stage. Smoke - yes, sparks - possibly, but that is very different to fire.

2. Because your fire training may have equiped you with basic knowledge to equip you to cope with reaction to fire in the average workplace. You can generally exit these workplaces by doors or fire escapes. Aircraft are not like these. That is why they have highly trained crew to assist people through potentially hazardous situations and yes, an emergency evac is a hazardous situation.

3. Because shouting fire will increase the stress levels hugely and people do not perform well when over aroused. They need calm direction, not some partly trained half wit with hero complex trying to use his limited knowledge who only succeeds in making things worse.

[bunkrest]

Below is a description of the event posted on youtube alongside some footage of the evacuation.

I've highlighted a section of interest to those that seem to think shouting "fire" though a cabin load of jittery pax is an effective option....

The video being being utilized was captured by me on the tarmac. The odor of the smoke quickly took your breathe away and burned the lungs. The odor quickly become more potent and the instant feeling of being a trapped animal rushed over me. The captain came over the PA and announced we would be heading back to the gate due to this intense odor. Moments later, directly across from where I was standing, passengers began to scream and yell, "FIRE!" At this point, what appeared to be chaos broke out in the cabin and a passenger rushed the emergency exit door and opened it while a flight attendant yelled not to. The passenger exited and at that instant the captain announced that we were to go to manual exit and the flight attendants quickly began opening the exit doors to get the passengers out as quickly as possible. The BA staff did a great job to get everyone out of the plane and onto the tarmac.

[Potential]

As I said before, I don't actually know who shouted fire initially, I think I heard more than one voice shout it. I did not personally see any fire, but there definitely was sparks and smoke, so it is not out of the question that there was also flames. Either way, it was obviously an electrical fault and it is likely that fire would have followed if the situation was not dealt with promptly. I dug out my old SEP manual and I quote "in the case of electrical fire there is likely to be a smell of burning followed by smoke prior to the appearance of any flames."

I assume that on hearing this passengers shout, the cabin crew isolated the electrical supply to the seats and I know that they also discharged a BCF in the affected area. Their reaction may not have been so swift if they had not immediately been informed by the passengers call, though the use of the word 'fire', may possibly have been more correctly replaced by 'smoke' or 'sparks.'

My colleague who went down the back did so to stop people running from the back into the area where the sparks/smoke/possible fire was. This had been happening for some time since the smell had started to get bad. It was mainly people with young children who were running around. I assume that they were moving in the hope that they could find somewhere in the aircraft that was not affected by the smell or that they were expecting everyone to exit through L1 and they understandably wanted to be one of the first. My friend simply stopped any more people coming forward into the affected area, which also kept the area clear for the crew to deal with it. He wasn't simply running about like a mad man shouting "fire, fire, fire", but he was giving people sensible instructions which were helpful to the situation.

I do understand people's comments about the words "fire" possibly causing panic, but at the same time the main focus is to extinguish the fire as soon as possible. I would say that a delayed response leading to an uncontrollable fire would cause significantly more panic.

It is all very easy for the armchair experts to criticise our actions and on reflection maybe some things could have been done differently. However, the bottom line regarding this incident is that everyone got out safely which is the main goal in an emergency. If people want to have a sensible grown up discussion about SEPs then I'm willing to contribute, but I'm not interested in getting into a slagging match. I will definitely be interested to see the recommendations that come out of the investigation into this incident.

[RatherBeFlying]

It's past time to shut down and evacuate.

Quite simply, if I'm choking, I'm going.

I expect the Phoenix litigation lawyers will be making serious money on the delay. Likely there will be claims for impairment of respiratory function. Any jury will be unimpressed by the need to adhere to procedures if they feel these procedures impede timely decision making.

The pax reports lead me to suspect that the degree of distress in the cabin was not adequately made known to the cockpit.

I have been in buildings on fire on four occasions -- fortunately all minor. A little whiff of smoke fully justifies immediate evacuation as it can become a much bigger problem in next to no time at all.

We are seeing a conflict of perspectives. The crews are able boded and located next to an exit and are biased against a quick decision to evacuate by balancing of risk, procedures, hierarchy and job security. Most SLFs are obstructed by their fellows (many not the brightest and hanging on to bulky items) and often have children or infirm loved ones to worry about as well as their own skin.

[M.Mouse]

I do not wish to participate in the debate amongst all you armchair experts explaining how a rapidly evolving and dynamic situation should have been handled, especially as many, not all, have absolutely no perception of how difficult it is for the flight crew to know just exactly how bad things are in the cabin, how much time it takes to shut down any engines that may have been started, how much time it takes to communicate with ATC and ground crew and possibly ground staff to inform them of the problem and the initial desire to return to stand before being informed of the escalating seriousness of the problem. Therefore, I shall wait and see what the report reveals despite hearing first hand from one of the pilots what happened from his perspective.

What I do wish to comment upon, though, is the appalling (in my opinion) way in which IFE/and seat power is wired on the B744s of my experience. Anybody with any experience of wiring, electrical loads and good wiring practice would be very, very surprised at what is allowed. I was unaware of the different rules, which someone mentioned earlier, which apply to non-essential wiring aboard aeroplanes. I accept that power can be isolated and fire suppressed but the acrid fumes from electrical fires have to be experienced to truly understand how noxious and unpleasant they are.

Edited for an errant apostrophe!

[very old flyer]

Well, a better outcome than Saudia Flight 163 on August 19, 1980 when after landing the L-1011-200 safely with a fire on board, NOBODY gave the order to evacuate, and ALL 287 pax and 14 crew died.
Check Wikipedia.

[Joetom]

MM,

Sounds like your post has much information, tks.

The IFE systems add much weight, wires can be thin and well pulled and heat can cause problems, good job they were on the ground.

However the evac was started, appears it went ok.

[IanWorthington]

Stupid, heavy cabin bags again
Here are the stupid, heavy cabin bags again. := How many times must we remind the companies that they should NOT allow the pax to bring those stupid, heavy cabin bags onboard. The gate agents MUST stop them at the jet way, and NOT allow them onboard. Who would want to be mindlessly brained from behind by a heavy carry on dropped by an idiot? A child could be seriously injured by those stupid bags. Maybe the companies should just remove the big overhead compartments and forbid all the carry on bags. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif


Whilst I certainly do not condone passengers taking on board bags they cannot lift, it must be recognised as the own-goal it is. If airlines were liable for damage contents, and reintroduced higher limits it would not be necessary for passengers to transport heavy and fragile items in the cabin.

For light releif on this subject, check out YouTube - United Breaks Guitars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo)

i

[CargoOne]

As it could be expected, there are many posts on this forum commending cabin crew performance. However, what is a bit unusual, we have as much as several first hand withnesses here, and when I'm reading them, I'm failing to see anything which suggests good or exceptonal performance of CC.

Don't you think we have a case where evacuation was successfull despite CC performance?

[ballyboley]

I see the aircraft is still sitting on an airbridge way at the other end of the airport, from what I could see it looks OK apart from the APU inspection doors were open. Does anyone know how long it has to stay there for or what will happen to it?

[SLF3b]

I was on a BA 777 that had an emergency evacuation.

One of things that struck me afterwards was how peoples recollection of an incident can differ substantially even when they are in close proximity. As an example, how serious you thought the incident was depended on whether you were facing forward or back and which side of the aircraft you were on. Discussing it afterwards, in the row I was in the guy by the left hand window thought we were going to die, the guy next to me thought we were in big trouble and I (right hand window) thought I was going to be late for a meeting. All rational opinions based on what we experienced.

My colleague and I went out the same door, one behind the other. He recalls a stewardess shouting 'go, go, go' or something similar at the door. I have no recollection of seeing or hearing her.

Each of the posters above is relating what they recall - but recollection of events at times of high stress is not perfect and different people will have had very different experiences.

Oh - and if I saw smoke and sparks under my seat I think it highly likely that I would shout 'fire'. I need to get someone's attention, and fast.

[sb_sfo]

sudden twang- a couple things

PA speakers are mounted below the overhead storage ( mostly ) so people standing in the cabin are less likely to hear PAs especially if there is noise in the cabin

1) the 74's I'm familiar with have the PA speakers mounted in the ceiling. Yours may be different, but I doubt it.

the fumes could well go into the pack inlets causing smoke /fumes in the cabin

2) The pack inlet air comes from engine bleed air- the NACA ducts that you see on the lower fuse are ram air inlets- that air cools the heat exchangers, and doesn't enter the cabin. Unlikely that smoke/fumes from a wheel bearing fire are going to enter the cabin that way.

Air cycle machine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_cycle_machine)

[Dream Buster]

sb_sfo,

Addendum to Annex 5 TOX/2006/21
COMMITTEE ON TOXICITY OF CHEMICALS IN FOOD CONSUMER PRODUCTS AND THE ENVIRONMENT (COT)
DISCUSSION PAPER ON THE CABIN AIR ENVIRONMENT, ILL-HEALTH IN AIRCRAFT CREWS AND THE POSSIBLE RELATIONSHIP TO SMOKE/FUME EVENTS IN AIRCRAFT
[This discussion document has been prepared by the COT secretariat to assist the COT in its discussions. It does not represent a formal view of the COT]
1. Members will wish to see recent data submitted in respect of generic information for aircraft air conditioning systems including diagrams specific for the B757 appended to this covering note.
Secretariat June 2006

Good link to air cycle machines & Wikepedia. Here is a paper from 2006 which makes reference to possible ill health from breathing oil smoke / fumes.

How can it be that tobacco smoke is now well accepted as being lethal and yet ill health from breathing oil smoke in a confined space is still, four years later - only possible?

It would appear that the smoke in this incident was electrical though - does anybody know for sure yet?

Thanks.

DB :oh:

[Andyismyname]

Very Old Flyer, check your facts about the Saudia L-1011 accident. My understanding is that the aircraft was still pressurised after landing, and as the engines were still running, with the pressurisation system landing elevation set for Jeddah, not Riyahd, no-one could have opened the doors until the pressure slowly bled off, in about 10 minutes. All perished.

So, in circumstances other than Saudia's, regardless of how much we cabin crew are paid, a properly trained CAA or FAA certified minimum number of crew can evacuate an aircraft.

[williamd]

apaddyinuk

Williamd, Interesting first hand account. As for the TSA/Security people prior to when you boarded. BA is one of the only remaining european airlines serving PHX (Not sure but I think LH have or are pulling out) and always attracts the huge number of TSA staff as it is sort of a training flight for them. So in answer to your suspicions...no, they was probably nothing going on, they were just looking for something to do. If you think PHX was bad you should see MIA on occasion.

You were wrong to get your luggage, to turn around and swear at a passenger for getting their book was simple hypocriscy. When you went back on stand you could have been on the aircraft for ages (regardless of a situation or not) so there was really no need to join the mob who got up and clamoured for their luggage but at the same time, I suppose its an easy mistake to make.

Can I make it clear (thats why this is in bold), I did not "clamour" for my luggage. When we were told we were returning to stand I told my family to gather up our stuff, which was all in front of us under the seats, as we would be departing the plane via the jetway and as we would almost certainly be spending the night in Phoenix I didn't see the point in leaving passports, cash etc on the plane, especially as there was no panic at this point (a level of anxiety yes). Shortly after that someone shouted fire and then the evac was called. As we already had bags in hand I didn't see the point in spending time putting them back!!

The person who was looking for a book was standing in the ailse, leaning back in to a seat (not the ailse seat), blocking the way of people who were trying to get off a plane when an emergency evacuation had been called. I am pretty sure you wouldn't have been too chuffed about their farting about either.

Of course, you weren't there.

Hate to criticise a fellow irishman (well 50% on my part) but thought I needed to make this clear.

[DingerX]

Non-essential communications are rarely good in incidents like this. The people who know things and can do things are to busy finding those things out and acting on them to keep everyone in the loop. So if you get the information that you need to survive, the rest is gravy.

While untrained passengers can behave unexpectedly, their behavior mostly falls into a predictable range. If the cabin crew is faced with a situation where passengers start self-evacuating, they either have a nutcase on board, or they have demonstrably lost control of the cabin.

[williamd]

DingerX

I wouldn't go as far to say they lost control of the cabin (it was getting close though as more and more people were up and about as the fumes got worse) but if a passenger did indeed open a door then perhaps they had lost control at that area.

Either way, my own opinion is that it took too long for them to decide to return to the stand. If they had immediately decided to return when the fumes were first detected then I don't think things would have reached the stage they did. Of course, if passengers were disembarking through the jetway then smoke appeared in the cabin it could have got quite nasty.

However you look at it, it was a pretty scary incident and one which I hope to never be involved in again.

[ACL1011]

How can it be that tobacco smoke is now well accepted as being lethal and yet ill health from breathing oil smoke in a confined space is still, four years later - only possible?

One of my degrees is in toxicology. Although I am not a toxicologist, I do recall from first-hand experience in counselling patients on possible pregnancy outcomes to exposure to work fumes etc. how difficult it is to link these types of exposures to outcomes. Unlike medications, where dose is known, it is difficult to estimate exposure to airbourne toxins. A single exposure, such as the one described in this thread, would be almost impossible to link to a long-term outcome.* Even in cases of chronic exposure, because the outcome is relatively rare and could take years to develop, unless you have a large number of people exposed, it would be difficult to make a definitive link.

Because of the shear proportion of the population that smoke (i.e., large number of people exposed), epidemiologists were able to definitively* link cigarette smoking with outcomes such as lung cancer.

* As definitively as we can link anything--I work with stats so for me to use word tells you there is VERY strong evidence for the link. I am always leary of making a definitive statement!

[sudden twang]

sb sfo

Nonetheless fumes from outside the a/c do enter the cabin that is certain from exactly where doesn't alter the point I was making ie opening a door without knowledge of outside hazards that may or not be visible could exacerbate the situation .

Indeed there are speakers in the ceiling of the 436 dunno if there are any below the bins I assumed there were but if there aren't , there should be .

[Paradise Lost]

Just been talking to a colleague who also "slid" out of BA228, who corroborates "Potential"s description of events almost identically. He is a Boeing captain (returning from the sim), and said that the acrid smell (IHO) smelled like hot Skydrol and caused a burning in the throat and coughing.
He did not hear an order to evacuate on the PA either!

[williamd]

Is it possible to make an announcement in a specific cabin as there was definitely an emergency evacuation called in the rear most cabin?

[Smilin_Ed]

Is it possible to make an announcement in a specific cabin as there was definitely an emergency evacuation called in the rear most cabin?

As someone else mentioned, it could be that due to the electrical system problem, a part of the PA system could have been inoperative. That would account for some passengers hearing announcements and others not.

[gas path]

...except that there was no problem with the electrical system or the PA system!

[Naughtius Maximus]

Excellent Madbob

Trained to act......but not to think! Class

Mind you, I would be amongst the first to 'negociate' with any :mad:wit taking the slides with a cabin bag.

[Smilin_Ed]

...except that there was no problem with the electrical system or the PA system!

OK, I'll bite. What was the problem?

[Naughtius Maximus]

The management of a dynamic scenario does not always require a complete understanding of the primary cause of the situation. If you can diagnose it and completely deal with it then fine but most are hybrid and complex. The Skip is interested in risk alleviation and he/she did a good job imho here. That is of course perceived risk alleviation in an intensely time limited environment.

We often learn collectively from post incident inquiries but need to use our judgement in 'live' situations.

There is little more frustrating than a 9 month inquest eventually finding that we were slightly too/insufficently risk averse at the time when we only had a very short time to assess and deal with a problem.:ugh:

[saffron]

My brother and his wife were on this flight,he is an airline Captain & told me the evacuation was a complete shambles from beginning to end.(Obviously those congratulating themselves on a job well done are BA people).BA need to look very carefully at this incident and learn some hard lessons.Things were not helped by the poor behaviour of many passengers who insisted on taking everthing but the kitchen sink down the slides with them,one passenger threw his large case down the slide which hit a preceding passenger in the back injuring him.Ten minutes after evacuation announced pax still evacuating!Hardly a job well done.

[williamd]

Having been on the flight I can say with some confidence that as far as I could see all passengers were off within a few minutes.

The criticism I would have is that the FC took too long to decide to return to the stand after the fumes were detected. In the cabin I was in (rear) I would say the evac was handled as well as could be expected in the circumstances.

The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins? Why was everybody just led into the terminal building and told to go to the BA desk (shouldn't everyone be put into a central, controlled area, a conference room or similar)?

[lomapaseo]

My brother and his wife were on this flight,he is an airline Captain & told me the evacuation was a complete shambles from beginning to end.(Obviously those congratulating themselves on a job well done are BA people).BA need to look very carefully at this incident and learn some hard lessons.Things were not helped by the poor behaviour of many passengers who insisted on taking everthing but the kitchen sink down the slides with them,one passenger threw his large case down the slide which hit a preceding passenger in the back injuring him.Ten minutes after evacuation announced pax still evacuating!Hardly a job well done.

I don't meam to completely dispute the above, but just to add another view.

It's impossible for the Cabin Crew to control an orderly evacuation. The most they can do is to provide the means by which the passengers can evacuate within a minimum time frame. Some passengers use this means while others don't. So there is the good and the room for lessons learned by the crew (I doubt that the next group of evacuating passengers will have learned anything new)

It makes me think of the Titanic movie where one of the ship officers fires a pistol over the heads of the more non complying passengers

[Tootles the Taxi]

The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins?

The staff are however exceptionally good at collecting excess baggage fees for return travel after the lowering of the recent weight restictions(even selling you a handy tote bag for $25 to put all your excess gear in and carry on as cabin baggage (two pieces, no weight restriction)), and then selecting you for a special security check thus ensuring the delight of an additional half hour with PHX TSA. The idea of 300 odd pax milling around on the apron with large aircraft taxying around and no plan does not surprise me (have been using PHX for the past 12 years on a regular basis).

[positionand hold]

I posted the second post on this thread, added a couple more, then just read with interest the ongoing conversations. I was initially dismayed to read William's first post, because it appeared to contradict the information I had provided earlier. However, Potential's later posts (I think he was seated in the same zone as my wife) appeared to support what I had said.

I had heard about the group of Pilots in Training who were on the flight (of whom I assume Potential was one). I have a PPL, although with no objective other than enjoying my leisure flying (in Arizona as often as possible). However, like Potential, I reckon it does give me a better understanding of how I would react to such a situation. Why is it that a disappointing number of long-term commercial pilots have such a sour view of PPLs ("spam cans", etc., etc...). Did they all wake up day and found they could fly a B737, or did they actually start by flying a C152?? (OK, or maybe some of them moved over from Mil flying).

It is interesting to read the recent post about the airline captain who was also on the flight and who also does not appear to have a high opinion of the evac procedures he witnessed.

Did any passengers hear anything at all from BA yet?? My wife has not and this seems seems a little disappointing so many days after the event (all the passengers were invited to completed a form with their contact details).

[oldtora]

The big heavy carry-on cases are no good. Post # 130 on this page tells how some idiot on the slide hit someone else in the back with a heavy case. The companies can easily stop the heavy carry-ons at the gate. Best to Remove the big overhead compartments and put a smaller shelf for coats, as in the old 707 and DC-8. :=:=:=

[Madbob]

Oldtora,

The carriers will never do that as it would force every passenger to check in bags for the hold when the trend now is on-line check-in and persuade SLF to travel light (to save lbs/kgs and therefor fuel) and to avoid (as much as is possible) reliance on old style check-in desks, baggage handlers and queues. This trend is to minimise ground handling overheads not to maximise cabin safety!

There's no $$$ in safety.......especially when airlines are in a market where every cent counts!

MB

[kiwi grey]

Takes me back to a wonderful bit of industrial action taken by TAA cabin crew in Australia in the early 1980s. They put every carry-on bag through the size guage and on the scales: anything too big or too heavy, they tagged and sent down to the hold. Oh, and they enforced the one carry-on bag per passenger rule as well. :}

You can imagine the chaos at the boarding gates.

And no, of course it wasn't "industrial action", they were just helping the companies safety record by enforcing the safety rules.:D

IIRC, whatever their beef was, TAA caved in within a few days.

I have no idea what the dispute was about, or where the rights and wrongs lay, but as an example of playing the company rules against itself, it was brilliant.

[williamd]

Did any passengers hear anything at all from BA yet?? My wife has not and this seems seems a little disappointing so many days after the event (all the passengers were invited to completed a form with their contact details).

I have heard nothing. Like you I find that a bit surprising. I would have thought talking to passengers whould have been part of the investigation procedure. Of course I am sure someone on here will be able to confirm or otherwise.

[williamd]

I posted the second post on this thread, added a couple more, then just read with interest the ongoing conversations. I was initially dismayed to read William's first post, because it appeared to contradict the information I had provided earlier. However, Potential's later posts (I think he was seated in the same zone as my wife) appeared to support what I had said

The account I provided is accurate for the cabin I was in (rear).

[rottenray]

Quote:
The major problem was the complete lack of an emergency plan by PHX airport/BA, i.e. why was everybody left on the tarmac for about 20 mins?
The staff are however exceptionally good at collecting excess baggage fees for return travel after the lowering of the recent weight restictions(even selling you a handy tote bag for $25 to put all your excess gear in and carry on as cabin baggage (two pieces, no weight restriction)), and then selecting you for a special security check thus ensuring the delight of an additional half hour with PHX TSA. The idea of 300 odd pax milling around on the apron with large aircraft taxying around and no plan does not surprise me (have been using PHX for the past 12 years on a regular basis).

As a former Phoenix resident, and frequent flier out of Sky Harbor, I can put a "yowsah" behind the comment of that airport being generally disorganized.

It's not that the folk who work there don't give a poop, it's that there are just to few of them.

There are lots of vendors coming in all the time to replenish "vital" supplies like every popular brand of bottled water and ice cream flavor, but if you need real help, like having landed and discovered that all the wheels and tires have been removed from your car parked in long-term, well, good luck.

Virtual ghost town.

On the other hand, BA does a fair number of flights from Barry Goldwater, and I would have assumed that they would have been a bit more prepared.

Looks like this downsizing stuff is bad for everyone, not just pilots and cabin crew.

That's not a knock - I have ultimate respect for both, as they work in conjunction with each other to keep my big bloated butt safe and comfortable.

What's to be done?


.

[Potential]

Did any passengers hear anything at all from BA yet??


I've not heard anything from BA, but I know that the Americans have passed the investigation over to the UK AAIB. For anybody that is interested, I have a copy of a pdf questionnaire that passengers can submit to the investigation.

[williamd]

I would like a copy of the questionnaire if possible.

[Potential]

William, I'll need an email address from you. I sent you a PM last week.

[rhinestonecowgirl]

I was a passenger on this flight. I'm waiting for a copy of the report from the AAIB. Has anyone ever been in touch with BA/heard from them??

[Potential]

It could be months or even years before the AAIB report is published.


I was at a party which John Monks was at recently and I started chatting to him about the accident, but then someone tore him away for a photo and I never got to speak to him again for the full story. I've had no official contact with BA.

[Potential]

I never noticed it at the time, but the AAIB's report into this incident was published in June 2010 and is available here: Air Accidents Investigation: Boeing 747-436, G-CIVB (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/june_2010/boeing_747_436__g_civb.cfm)

I was surprised to read that: A detailed investigation was carried out over a four day period by the operator, in conjunction with the aircraft manufacturer, and no source of the fumes/smoke could be found. The aircraft was ferried back to the operator’s main base where further examination and testing was carried out, but still no source or explanation of the fumes/smoke was found.


I would have thought that the seats where the sparks/smoke was coming from would have been a good place to look for an explanation. Apparently they couldn't find anything though and the aircraft returned to service 10 days after the incident.

The cockpit voice recordings were accidentally recorded over during the subsequent maintenance activities so were not available to the investigation team. The only reccomendations from the report are that BA and the CAA review their procedures and training regarding CVR preservation.

[cwatters]

Report is interesting reading. Flight deck on oxygen masks, a pan call to ATC and cabin crew discharging fire extinguishers. Clearly not just normal start up smells.