China ATS delays

[*Lancer*]

Quick question for those in the know...

After travelling in China recently I was perplexed by the seemingly common problem of having all the passengers boarded, to be told of an ATC delay of three hours or so due to airspace/weather etc. Everywhere else in the world has either an ATS that could cope, or would hold boarding until such time that the problem cleared. Singapore is the only other place I know of that imposes ridiculous delays on departures, and that is only due to traffic sequencing over the Bay of Bengal.

So, why is China so different?

[Midnight Oil]

Hi Lancer, from his/her profile I see that “cxa340so” has formulated a stereotypical opinion from the jump seat of an A340. Let me give what I hope is a more balanced opinion from someone who has been operating into China since 1991 on an almost daily basis…

I feel China ATC have done quite well considering their circumstances. Consider Beijing to use the example given. When you stand anywhere on Beijing airport, almost every man made structure you see did not exist 15 years ago, with the exception of the original terminal with its 2 satellite piers over on the western side. The road to the airport from the city was the little 2-lane road to the east that you can glimpse from the airport freeway. This gives an indication of how circumstances in aviation in China have changed in the last 15 years.

The situation with Air Traffic Control is similar. 15 years ago only Beijing and Shanghai used basic radar for controlling arrivals. En-route control was procedural, using position reports. Approach control to most airports was also done procedurally and on a common frequency (130.0), which made for very, very congested radio frequencies. Terminal control radar, ATIS, STAR’s, SID’s etc did not exist or where not available for use. The standard of English for controllers, engineers, ground staff etc was marginal. Most airports were joint civil/military so it was not unusual to be slotted between MIG’s for your non-precision approach to land. I am not telling war stories here, just saying how it was - you have to know where China has come from to understand where it is now.

What a change 15 years makes! China has modern aviation infrastructure and ATC equipment that puts most so-called “first world” countries to shame. In that time there has been a huge increase in air traffic density. I defy anyone to suggest any other country that could have pulled it off in that time. I point out the Heathrow Terminal 5 or Sydney second airport sagas as counter examples.

That is not to say there are not problems, as the delays out of Shanghai you experienced demonstrate. Most air traffic from South East Asia to ports in Eastern China is sent on a single, bidirectional airway up the east coast. There are only so many aircraft that can physically fit into this “pipeline” at any one time. So there will inevitably be delays, particularly if there are military exercises or the forces are put on a higher alert status. Scarce airspace will then be taken away for military use (often at very short notice).

So why not put in another airway? That is coming, but it takes time. There are many military bases scattered along this stretch of coast and much of the airspace is “owned” by the military so it takes time to wrest control of airspace for civil use. More airways cannot be added to the east of the coast for obvious political reasons, but that that will change. There are similar problems all over the country.

Regarding boarding and then being delayed – the pilots may know that delays are being incurred but probably not for how long. You will find that ATC themselves have no idea when airspace is to be closed or reopened. I have had company aircraft ahead of me incur a 2 hour delay while I had only 10 minutes. I have been given a 2 hour delay and then cleared to push after 20 minutes. In my experience it is better to have everyone on board so as to be ready to go when things start moving again. In ports where there is a shortage of parking space such as Hangzhou, you may be required to board passengers and be towed elsewhere as the aerobridge is needed for arrivals.


I hope this goes some way to explaining your delays. The problems are related to a huge increase in aviation infrastructure and air traffic in a relatively short time, along with an airspace system dominated by the needs of the military. The accusations by “cxa340so” of “incompetence, poor training and lack of communication” are unfair and poorly thought out. China is just scrambling to catch up with a massive growth spurt and considering where they have come from I think they are not doing a bad job in the circumstances.

[mephisto88]

Having operated in and out of China since the late 80's, I would have answered the first post with a simple explanation of:

INCOMPETANT :ugh:
INTRANSIGENT :ugh::ugh:
& INEFFICIENT :ugh::ugh::ugh:

However, I then read the comment from cxa340so and thought - how very very true!

I subsequently read midnights very thorough view from the other side, and with his well balanced description, I could not fail to agree with his extremely well put points. You must be sir, IMHO, a contender for sainthood and must possess patience beyond the norm. A genuine hats off, perhaps I should take some lessons.

Unfortunately, I am unable to put up with such consistant cr@p from their ATC without feeling obliged to frequently point out the error of their ways, or, offer alternative courses of action. Futile gestures I know, I concede they normally change nothing, other than to let them know, that I know, they really aren't very good. I know they are hampered by lateral blinkers and government/military restrictions, but really, how hard is it?

Admittedly, their rate of improvement is quantum, but when you have started from as low a position as you can get, their current standards, or lack thereof, still leaves them an awfully long way to go.

As a somewhat facetious example, it never fails to give me a laugh watching the face of the other pilot on his first flight to ZXXX, when having overcome all the arrival obstacles as so truly pointed out by a340so, we have beaten their obstructive plans to prevent us landing, that we now taxi around the airport, are 100 metres from our parking bay (which is now in full sight), and what are we are given? .....yes - a "follow me" car for the last 50m to the bay. The incredulous look on the other guys face, that just says "WTF!" is so priceless, it makes my day just a little less onerous than it otherwise would be. Gotta get your laughs where you can these days :ok: .
If anyone does actually know the real reason, I'd be interested to know, as it sure as hell isn't to stop us from getting lost in that last 50m, even the Chinese arent that stupid.

I stand by my view of them being Incompetant, Inefficient, Intransigent and lacking almost all of the lateral thought processes that most ATC systems in the world have had to have to endure and overcome their own quite significant problems.
Overall, they come under the heading of "Could do better".
But will they? - in the near future, I very much doubt it.

To all who are required to foray into such no-mans land, fingers crossed and good luck to you all.

[Buttie Box]

At the danger of being branded racist, please consider the following:

I've visited SE Asia for some time now and most of the complaints I find are concerned with a change in mental attitude that, once understood, explain most of the scenarios listed above. Your average Chinese citizen is encouraged from birth to be a compliant team member - everything else stems from there. I call it, "The Ant Farm." Examples are many, from posthumously criticising a suicidee for being selfish in taking his own life, to the collective praise dished out by senior management, using word like team and family. Just look at the Chinese horoscopes compared to western (?) ones. The latter is mostly concerned with love, money and change management; the former is invariably linked to status and relationships at work, especially with this "Boss" person.

To take a rather fatuous extreme example to illustrate my point further, imagine a garage mechanic who is qualified on front left car wheels. This is excellent if you have a problem with your car's left front wheel, but what if it's the right front wheel? Can the mechanic extrapolate from left to right, or might he get into trouble, fear he may lose his job and income if he steps over the line and guesses?

The problem comes when flexible, individual decision making is required. A recent newspaper article stated China's concern at management trainees who were assessed in 5 areas. Consistent failings were found in 2 areas: creativity and initiative, or ability to think outside the box and take responsibility. A good example of this is when you have a problem, say, with another hotel guest who insists on having his TV volume up high at 4 in the morning. Rather than confront the miscreant, you will be offered a change of room. In their minds, you don't have a problem, you are the problem and if you go away so does the problem. HK has one of if not the best public transport systems in the world but I would hate to be physically disabled trying to get from A to B.

Now, to thread: I think we're all agreed that ATC is one of those professions that demands both creativity and initiative...

I think I've said enough.

BB

[Basil]

You want to try Baku, Azerbaijan or even trying to get fuel at short notice at night in Moscow. :{

[Sue Ridgepipe]

If anyone does actually know the real reason, I'd be interested to know, as it sure as hell isn't to stop us from getting lost in that last 50m, even the Chinese arent that stupid.
No they aren't stupid, especially when it comes to $$$$$$$$$$, which is my guess as to why we are forced to use this often futile service.

[*Lancer*]

Certainly there's a cultural difference between Western and Asian thinking, but there are plenty of other countries in Asia that don't have the same issues with traffic management that China does.

The flip side of Western 'creativity and innovation' can be experienced if you're a foreigner flying into the United States -- with their own version of 'English' and radio procedures. :ugh:

[gengis]

A part of the reason for the ATC delays (at least for en-route clearances) is because there are a lot of airways that are designated only for domestic flights which are not released for International traffic. These other airways are NOT depicted in the Jepessen charts, so you can be forgiven for assuming (incorrectly) that areas which appear to be open unused airspace should be empty when in fact they are full of domestic traffic. If you can, get a hold of the domestic airways charts from a local Chinese domestic carrier, and you'll see what i mean.

There are at least twice the number of airways within the country than would appear on the Jep charts.

PS - They're not all as daft as some make them out to be. In fact, some of them use this "duality" to their advantage. On more than one occasion, i've caught them descending a foreign flight only to assign his original flight level to a domestic guy. And since the coms was in Chinese to the domestic guy & English to the foreign traffic, the guy never even caught on that a number had been done on him...!

[Midnight Oil]

Yes, there is a reason for the “follow me” vehicle. I assume you are talking about Pudong. It is because the section of apron where you park cannot be seen from the tower. I guess when an apron control tower is built on the eastern side of airport then some pilots will cease to be “incredulous” at the sight…

[Captain TOGA]

The media's recent airline industry focus recounts what are now all-
too-familiar stories of congestion, rolling delays, air rage and strained
customer relations. Perhaps most disturbing, from the standpoint of
solving any of these problems, the media also report the industry's
penchant for laying blame elsewhere. While environmental and external
influences undoubtedly contribute to a lag in air traffic control
capacity growth, the airline industry has itself to blame for the majority of
today's "system" delays and resulting passenger anxiety and backlash.
Boiled down to basics, the media focus offers vignettes on the
extent to which post-deregulation airline industry profit optimization has
consistently hammered customer comfort, business consumers' wallets and
employee motivation, in the hopes of engorging option holders' (e.g.
executives') paper wealth.
To be sure, airline deregulation and the optimization it enabled
has offered leisure customers bargains and business customers network
growth, to and from hubs. The high price of this change, however, has been an
increase in customer and employee anxiety from higher load factors,
compounded by reduced aircraft size and related service demands, the
commoditization of coach service and substantial real-dollar air fare
increases for business consumers.
Add to this continuing job insecurity among many front-line
employees, due to more than a decade of outsourcing, downsizing and,
more recently, domestic and international code-sharing and alliance-related concerns. Not that CAAis faultless. Sure, it's embarrassing in 2009 to see
vacuum tube failures strangle the ATC system. Greater airports would be
nice to have, as well. But let's face it, the congestion problem is
largely of the industry's own making, the result of a consistent
strategic push outside the capacity envelope.

[propje]

Simple answer to all of this. The military controls the airspace and do whatever they want at any time of the day........

[Captain Dart]

Yes, Colonel Wong wants to fly his MiG 17 copy for twenty minutes and half the country's commercial airspace shuts down.

[hongkongfooey]

I guess my rose coloured " they're doing the best they can " glasses got thrown out the nav bag when we watched a local chinese carrier ( bound for HK, same as us ) sceduled departure time 10 mins after ours, push back before our departure time after we were told " delay undetermined " ( a favourite with Chinese ATC ) , when asked why, the 2nd most favourite reply " Flow control ". I would be much happier if they told the truth and said " gweilo delay control ".
That and being told by numerous Chinese Captains that it is not unusual for ATC to ask if anyone would like to depart before us, after we have asked for a pushback.
Yes, I know, rumours, conspiracy theory etc, its probably just the Chinese guys I've spoken to trying to make their own race look bad....hang on, what the :confused:
Of course, unless you are fluent in Putonghua, you would never know how often this happens.
My other favourite is how we ( mostly ) fly around 6-10,000 below optimum levels until there is bad turbulence and then guess where all the local carriers want to be ? and guess where we end up :ugh:

[DernierVirage]

cxa340so - if that's what you think about Asia and China, jsut pack up and get out. What a loser....

[hongkongfooey]

Well thought out and constructive 2nd post Dernier, maybe you could come up with some actual facts that prove a340 is a loser, and not telling how it is, albeit bluntly.
Good luck with that :hmm:

[ArthurBorges]

So much to say.

Beijing airport...find it difficult to give you arrival procedure before 1 minute at the arrival fix,(or you are given an arrival procedure and...a totally different arrival going in the total opposite direction!!) they can not advise your runway until your on the approach, and then they will change your runway up to 4 times.cxa340so, I teach at an university here. Every semester, I get my schedule and textbooks on the eve of my first class. A summer or two ago, a Kiwi colleague booked his ticket through our boss, who was also arranging his visa renewals. That boss handed him his ticket and passport with updated visas no earlier than 2130LT on the eve of his departure. That's China: you wait till all of the jigsaw puzzle pieces are in optimal position before you wiggle the last few into place so you can commit and get it right on your first try. Obviously, this wracks nerves and requires a 24/7 standby mindset backed up by a laidback attitude.


The first thing you learn after moving to Asia, is that Chinese can not do anything right, besides copy expensive brands... cxa340so, the locally trendy term for that is Shanzhai: it's about learning through imitation until you reach proficiency sufficient to give you scope for personal creativity. Shanzhai is how you got out of 4WD and learned to walk on two feet. It's how you learned the alphabet before moving on to prose and poetry of your own. In the 1960s, we were trashing Japs for that. We thought they all were all look-alikes too. It passed.

Midnight Oil, I subscribe entirely to your contribution. I am domestic SLF several times a year and all I could complain of was the pickled vegetables in the breakfast trays. I've since surrendered in and now eat them without sulking.

...IncompetEnt, Inefficient, Intransigent and lacking almost all of the lateral thought processes that most ATC systems...have to endure and overcome their own quite significant problems.
mephisto88, the Chinese are not lateral thinkers, they are quantum thinkers: We'll catch up eventually. After all, since Bohr and Heisenberg, we have been graced with Francesco Varela's quantum biology. IT now has quantum processing, I hear.

The problem comes when flexible, individual decision making is required...

Rather than confront the miscreant, you will be offered a change of room. In their minds, you don't have a problem, you are the problem and if you go away so does the problem.Buttiebox, determining who is the source of the problem is subjective.

And this too is quantic: the attitude is that, if you change the position of a single piece on the chessboard, you are changing the whole game, so you think twice and thrice before acting. This is a family-oriented society. Some 3,000 (arguably 5,000 or 8,000) years of history's civil wars, droughts, floods, earthquakes and whatever have drilled it into their DNA that when the schlitz hits the fan, the only people who will go to the wall to save all four of your cheeks are family, friends and "connections". Western "rugged individualism" strikes them as falling somewhere between childish ego fixation and utter lunacy.

On your other issue, well, your turn of phrase shows you're learning. You're expected to be able to know how to suck it in after age 4 or so. On the other hand, everybody foreign and native alike has their quirks, so the first line of approach is to settle directly with the whiner. Complaining about noise in China is like complaining about paid parking in Manhattan or the scent of apple pie in front of the Lincoln Memorial. The nice part is that here they don't make you feel weird about you and your pet problem.

Yes, Lancer, everything has a flipside or two. There are culture bumps wherever you go.

.Yes, Colonel Wong wants to fly his MiG 17 copy for twenty minutes and half the country's commercial airspace shuts down.
Captain Dart, I guess you mean the licence-built version of the MiG-17 known as the Shenyang Jianji 5 "Fresco": the last was retired in 1995 (Source: Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/plaaf-equip.htm)).

There are however some 500 J-7 Fishbeds (MiG-21) in service (ibid.).

Since then the native-built if Lavi-like J-10 and Sukhoi 27 Flanker buzz around here and there every other now and then.

China is 5,026 km wide E/W and somewhat less N/S (Geography of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_China)) : the Flanker's combat radius is 1,340 km but heck, let's make it 3,530 at altitude instead of measly sea level (Combat radius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_radius)). So yes, that's about "half" the country. More if you throw in external fuel tanks perhaps. Not sure if there are any real mission profiles for that -- my guess is they find fuel capacity more useful as loitering time, but 3,530 is 3,530. Loitering time would exceed 20 minutes though.

Given the array of US troops and materiel in the region, the Central Military Commission has deployed its people and widgets for optimum response to massive incursions from the Korean Peninsula and Taiwan, so the Beijing and the Eastern seaboard is where airline captains are most likely to feel occasionally unwelcome and get upset.

If you like the 17 however, I know where you can see one parked as a kiddie display right next to the Yellow River. It has a cool radome too. However, there is a stunning airforce museum about 60km north of Beijing that used to be an air defence base. The exhibition area starts out as a semi-circular tunnel dug into solid mountainside. Featured aircraft include a B-29 clone called the Tupolev 4 fitted out with an AWACS radome.


I would be much happier if they told the truth and said "gweilo delay control".

My other favourite is how we ( mostly ) fly around 6-10,000 below optimum levels until there is bad turbulence and then guess...where we end up
Hongkongfooey, it won't happen. I like straight answers too but forget it. These folks would walk miles in 50°C sunshine to avoid embarrassing anyone including themselves. And you.

The other piece of essential Survival Chinese is guanxi: mutual backscratching or, more technically, it's social capital. Get to know the ATCs. Drink with them (you folks still have oxygen cylinders in the cockpit and they still leak, right?). Read up on nepotism too: contrary to popular myth, there is a stack of Western sociological studies that show it is both socially and economically efficient. The locals here have known that for several millennia and have an operating manual all their own for "invisible hand of the market".

Hope this helps.

Have a great day.

[inciter]

Typical Chinese ATC clearance: "delay undetermined due flow control". If there was any flow control you would get a departure slot or ETD.

"you wait till all of the jigsaw puzzle pieces are in optimal position before you wiggle the last few into place so you can commit and get it right on your first try"

Very good Arthur but while they are wiggling their pieces we are burning gas at the rate of about 50-100 kgs per minute!

Being stuck 6000-10000ft below optimum level together with the approach controllers obvious confusion as you enter their airspace, cost airlines between 500-1000kg of gas per arrival.

Beijing was ranked 21st busiest airport by movements last year so it is not that busy. I suggest they sent their controllers to the States and Europe for a couple of years and maybe then they would do a better job copying them than most other things they copy.

First rule to fixing a problem you must admit you have one. Unfortunately the Chinese are incapable of that, so don't expect any improvements in the near future.

Arthur, keep smoking what you are smoking and maybe join a teachers' forum.
This is a Forum for AVIATION PROFESSIONALS as the banner at the top clearly states.

[BusyB]

Bit harsh inciter, I quite liked Arthur's piece:ok:

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Ahhh, China ATC what a joke.......just like that other third world airport JFK :}

[Captain Dart]

Arthur, I 'dips me lid' in respect for your thorough posting, especially in response to my tongue-in-cheek comment! I have visited the air museum near Beijing and am familiar with the Shenyang.

[Dragon69]

ArthurBorges,

You remind so much of our beloved 828a. Learn a few words of Mandarin and you think you know everything that is Chinese , but the truth is you know very little. :yuk:

cxa340so, the locally trendy term for that is Shanzhai: it's about learning through imitation until you reach proficiency sufficient to give you scope for personal creativity. Shanzhai is how you got out of 4WD and learned to walk on two feet. It's how you learned the alphabet before moving on to prose and poetry of your own. In the 1960s, we were trashing Japs for that. We thought they all were all look-alikes too. It passed.For one the Japs were technologically advanced much before the '60s, you do know how formidable they were during WWII right???? :confused::confused::confused: The japs were never branded as copiers, they were known for being innovative in making things smaller and more efficient. Get your facts straight!

Secondly, when you learn to walk or learn the alphabet, you do so not by imitation but by being TAUGHT properly! You go on to write poetry because you were taught the important fundamentals. Learning by imitation doesn't give you the fundamentals needed to progress! To think otherwise makes a mockery of the education system...and you said you're a professor right :ugh::ugh::ugh:

mephisto88, the Chinese are not lateral thinkers, they are quantum thinkers: We'll catch up eventually.
There is no denying that ATC in Beijing is dangerously inefficient! If they were quantum thinkers like you say they are, then surely putting aside old cultural ways of thinking, and asking to be taught properly from the west shouldn't be a problem now should it!

[gengis]

There is no denying that ATC in Beijing is dangerously inefficient!

Inefficient - without question. "Dangerous"? That's debatable, unless you can point me to an example of any recent mid-airs or crashes attributed to ATC in China?


asking to be taught properly from the west shouldn't be a problem now should it!

From your (and my) point of view - yes. But as mentioned in an earlier post, they're not as daft as they're so often made out to be. This "gweilo" delay factor is a glaring case in point. There are numerous occasions where i have caught them using English to the foreign guy & very deliberately Chinese to the domestic guy, and in the process - by a cheeky use of offsets - swapped the levels of both guys, with the foreign traffic having had his level robbed from him without being none the wiser. This i have personally come across on many an occasion (and yes, i am fluent in Mandarin - else i too would have been in the dark). And the reason they succeeded in this was because of this use of "duality" in language to their advantage - the obvious solution being that they adhere strictly to the use of only English. To this degree, being "taught from the west" may be barking up the wrong tree - they're certainly not oblivious to things as might appear to you & I, and they might want the status quo to remain.

[hongkongfooey]

Yes, there is a reason for the “follow me” vehicle. I assume you are talking about Pudong.

That does'nt explain the other dozen single runway airports in China that have follow me cars to guide you 50 metres

[gengis]

That does'nt explain the other dozen single runway airports in China that have follow me cars to guide you 50 metres

HKFooey, i'd be very tempted to say it's got to do with the "service" charge for providing the car?!?

[hongkongfooey]

I'd say you are on the money Gengis :ok:

Another 1 hour delay yesterday due " flow control " funny how the dozen or so Chinese a/c that departed in that hour ahead of us were not subject to the same " flow control ", yeh, funny as a :mad:ing fart in a lift :{
Mind you, on the positive side, the controlling when we got back to HK was equally, if not more 5hit, than up north :ugh:

[bigjames]

hkfooey, are they that bad here? half of the hk atc seem to be native english speakers, and it all seems pretty regimented. far as i can see, standard approaches and waypoints apply to cx as much as china eastern and other carriers. although i'm not sure how many of you were in the vicinity earlier this week when approaching AF was yelled at for not establishing ILS to 25R as instructed.... "You can't do that!" funny...

[hongkongfooey]

Big Jimbo, it depends on who is on shift, you get to recognise the voices after a while and work out when you are going to be 220IAS with 60 track miles to run, whist zig zgging across the sky, some of them are'nt even capable of leaving you on the STAR/SID, whats the frigging point of having STARS that add 100 track miles to your trip when they have to extend them more ????????
But I have to say one of my favourites is flying abeam the field( SIERA ), and landing behind aircraft that were 200 miles SE when you were looking down at the runway.......hilarious.

[gengis]

Bigjames

half of the hk atc seem to be native english speakers

I take it that this is your pre-requisite of the criteria for what makes good ATC then?

[ArthurBorges]

You remind so much of our beloved 828a. Learn a few words of Mandarin and you think you know everything that is Chinese , but the truth is you know very little.Yep. I know a few words of Mandarin and little else -- not even 828a.


The (J)aps were never branded as copiers, they were known for being innovative in making things smaller and more efficient. Get your facts straight!In 1950s Brooklyn of my birth, Japanese products had a different reputation. For general entertainment, when Japanese automakers decided to crash the Swedish market in the early 1970s, the advertising strategy was slogans like "We know our cars aren't as good as Swedish cars, but you can have a new Japanese car for the price of a used Swedish one." It took them about three years to establish the reputation you speak of and claim 20% of the Swedish market.

Your facts are surely also true but subject to the constraints of your date and place of birth.

Secondly, when you learn to walk or learn the alphabet, you do so not by imitation but by being TAUGHT properly! Theorists argue that kids need to reinvent the letters they copy off the blackboard before they can reproduce them successfully; others argue they copy until they simply get the muscular reflexes right, freeing their minds to move on to personalize cursive with flourishes and other distinctive features. For my part, I think that makes for brilliant dissertations but it's a storm in a teacup. I may be wrong. We can however agree that competent teaching facilitates the process, whether it happens your way, mine, or somebody else's.

Interestingly, research reports that language learning begins in utero: make special efforts to surround pregnant women with soothing music and gentle language at least until delivery -- I'm not too far off topic here: it's Chinese tradition too.

Learning by imitation doesn't give you the fundamentals needed to progress! To think otherwise makes a mockery of the education system...and you said you're a professor rightWell, I have to kick in the airbrakes here: imitation and mimicking are fundamental. Progress follows.

I do mock education systems East and West for overemphasizing imitation, but I don't have enough beer on tap to go into that now.

Um, I said "I teach at an university." Professors are divinities that walk on air and water alike, with tenure and other attributes. I am but a contract instructor. My chair is a one-year ejection seat with as many ejection handles on it as I have bosses. That makes at least four. For details see: Arthur Michael Borges * French-English, Swedish-English, English-English Translation * Analytical, Non-Ethnocentric & Punctual with Strong Writing/Editing Skills * Translator Profile at TranslatorsCafe.com - Directory of Translators, Interpreters and (http://arthur.translatorscafe.com) (sorry about this long URL -- not my idea!)

...surely putting aside old cultural ways of thinking, and asking to be taught properly from the west shouldn't be a problem now should it!Dragon69, a friend of mine bought a clapper in Hong Kong. It's a musical instrument. He took it home and gave it to his two-year old, thus instantly turning it into a baby toy. This is what we do. We see something new & foreign and adopt it only if we see a role for it within our existing worldview.

What rubs me the wrong way is the assumption that you have to go West to "learn properly" when you have "old cultural ways of thinking." If the Vietnamese had done that in the 1960s, they would never have achieved reunification, now would they?

To move beyond us vs. them thinking, we all need to listen as well as we can teach "properly". Is that so foreign a thought?

Agreed: your input shows that Chinese ATC have lots to learn too.

...while they are wiggling their pieces we are burning gas at the rate of about 50-100 kgs per minute!

Being stuck 6000-10000ft below optimum level together with the approach controllers obvious confusion...cost airlines between 500-1000kg of gas per arrival.Inciter, thank you for the detailed response on fuel consumption. It would have more impact if I knew the price of the gas your a/c burns, but my posting was intended to give readers some insight into the mindset here. My own experience is that once I understand why a fool is acting like one, I can take her/his behaviour in my stride more easily and this has to be good for my blood pressure. Maybe for yours too.

First rule to fixing a problem you must admit you have one. Um, in China, that's the SECOND rule. The first is NEVER to embarrass anyone. Our frankness simply does not work here. Direct confrontation mayyyyyy secure a tactical victory, but be sure payback time is on the agenda. Sooner or later. And it will cost more than the benefit of the tactical victory. In case of an issue with somebody, find a go-between and work through him or her. If you feel like exploding, make an excuse and remove yourself from the situation; come back to it when you've cooled off. Been there, done that. Didn't enjoy payback time one bit.

Yesssss, I see how, when you're entering airspace with pax and been in the cockpit for 11 or 12 hours minus a brief break, this may not be easy and there is no go-between but it might help during layovers and, given time and a modicum of good faith, might carry over in your cockpit mindset. Again, understanding why someone is behaving oddly helps you step back and relax about it, which is good for blood pressure, adrenalin levels and such.

Arthur, keep smoking what you are smoking and maybe join a teachers' forum.
This is a Forum for AVIATION PROFESSIONALS as the banner at the top clearly states.Inciter, I smoke four packs a day of pure tobacco. You're right about the banner too. I'm not sure why I'm not into teachers' forums but I did moderate and administer forums at the second largest translators' website. Does that help?

I did USD 150,000+ of pro bono translations for an NGO subsidiary of a major European airline over seven years, was born under the landing pattern of LGA, became cadet 2/Lt in the Civil Air Patrol, now live between CGO and 18 ICBMs targeting the USA and count seven years in China: Do you feel I can contribute here now and then?

Captain Dart, I don't know how many tongues I have in my pair of cheeks: thanx for spotting all of them. Immune to hats as I am, I can only bow in deference.

BusyB, You are a snowflake bright enough to twinkle up a rainbow in the sunshine of a breakfast sky.

Happy Skies & Landings to One & All!

[ArthurBorges]

Ahhh, China ATC what a joke.......just like that other third world airport JFK http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifNow that tickles a rib or two of mine!

[bigjames]

@HKfooey, HAHA obviously you got lost on your way to tango delta then and allowed those other guys to jump in ahead of you on the TD340! :):rolleyes:

@gengis, not at all. just responding to someone's point that in china the level of english is poor. i'm not necessairily in the tyler brule camp on that one!

[hongkongfooey]

Ahhh, China ATC what a joke.......just like that other third world airport JFK http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Ab Fab, I'm sure you are joking but interestingly JFK has ( or had in 2008 ) more aicraft movements than Beijing, is over 6 decades old and is very close to another 2 extremely busy airports ( Newark which is also busier than Beijing, and Laguardia ),not to mention Teterboro.
Beijing has none of these constraints.

Inciter, thank you for the detailed response on fuel consumption. It would have more impact if I knew the price of the gas your a/c burns,

Art, depends on what price our " third world management " have hedged the fuel at :}, but to give you an idea, I would estimate that nearly every time I fly in China I am forced to waste between 2-500 kgs of fuel ( 250-650 litres of fuel ), I would be surprised if the fuel was any less than 1USD/litre. That is also 400-1000kgs of CO2 going into the atmosphere that really does'nt need to :rolleyes:
We have some 30 a/c flying in and out of china every day, 2-3 times a day :hmm:

[broadband circuit]

Hongkongfooey 2-500kg of fuel produces 400-1000kg of CO2. Really You are front office material

Rule 3, I assume you are mocking him because you think that he is creating an extra 2-500kg out of nothing.

If so, permit me to mock you, and suggest that you do yourself a favour, and search for the periodic table of elements on the internet. You might work out that 2-500kg of fuel will produce 6-1500 kg of CO2.

[LapSap]

JFK has ( or had in 2008 ) more aicraft movements than Beijing, is over 6 decades old

Isn't that the point though hkf? JFK controllers have had 60 years to fine tune their procedures as traffic gradually increased over the decades to just slightly more than Beijing has achieved in about a 6th of the time?
If you threw 400,000 movements at JFK in 1950, it would probably have seemed a mess too.

And yes Rule 3, I believe the ratio is about 3.16 tonnes of CO2 for every tonne of fuel burnt.

[hongkongfooey]

Sorry, did'nt account for all the rocket scientisit/nuclear physicists on PPRUNE :rolleyes: I just remember reading somewhere that 1kg of burnt fuel = 2 kg of CO2, whatever.
Rule 3 :mad: off back to the sandpit forum would ya.

Lapsap, no thats not the point, the point is JFK is an old airport that is trying to cope with more traffic than Beijing, which is a new airport, and JFK is surrounded by other busy airports which means a hell of a lot of traffic in a very small area of airspace, is that simple enough for you :confused:

China ATC is rubbish and they waste 1000s of tons of fossil fuel a year, sorry if that offends you, its just the facts mate.

[throw a dyce]

HKF,
Are the delays resulting in extra fuel burn,caused by non optimum levels,waiting at the holding point,or just holding for approach.:confused:
Say for an average sector are you delayed more than 20 minutes in the air due to holding.
My experience of that region was that HKATC tried to place many of the strange flow restrictions imposed by the Mainland,on start up restrictions,to minimise fuel burn.
Not picking a fight,just curious from an ATCO who used to work there,and back in a heavily flow restricted UK.:)

[Rule3]

Thank you to those who enlightened me, I have withdrawn the post.:ok:

[hongkongfooey]

Hi throw a dice
don't tend to get much holding, unless there is a TS within 20 miles :rolleyes:, we do occasionally get orbits after they have tried their best to slow us down to get the local airlines in front of us ( this is up north, not HK ), but to be honest that might happen once a month.

Most of the fuel is wasted by flying around at 23-25,000 when we should be at 35-39000, this does happen regularly, I would say easily more than 50% of the time. Admittedly, once you are lucky enough to get in the air, its usually reasonably painless, except when the PLA decide to go flying and you get a 90 degree heading change for 5 minutes, or a local airline wants to climb through your level, same same.
Also the routing is, well, rooted :} It is not unusual for a 500 mile ( for example ) as the crow flies trip to be 6-700 miles including a SID and a STAR. If I drew our routes on a map for you, you would swear I was pi55ed :eek:
The other, more minor fuel wastage is sitting on the ground for 1-2 hours extra with the APU grinding away.
As an aside, both HK and China let you load the pax, disconnect the bridge, before telling you there is a 1-3 hr delay due " flow control " or the other favourite " delay undetermined " or " no departure time ", as you can imagine this pleases the pax no end and of course it is always our fault.
cheers

[Thunderbird4]

Kind of off the topic but for those interested... here's the calculation that the offsetters website uses:

One gallon of jet fuel produces 21 pounds of CO2; one barrel produces 886 pounds. The standard calculation is that each passenger kilometre on a fully laden airliner emits 150g of carbon dioxide (short haul flights use a figure of 180g). So for each passenger, the flight from HK to YVR is 10200km x 0.00015 tons = 1.53 tons.

[throw a dyce]

HKF,
Thanks for that.
In this neck of the woods airlines are happy to accept lower levels,as a way of getting airborne.The low cost airlines have a tight schedule to keep.Often the higher levels are just not available especially with the North Atlantic flow on.
In HK the delay on the ground is what I was referring to about strange flow control by the Mainland.It seemed to vary from day to day,and often imposed without warning.
Clearance delivery in HK spent so much time trying to sort out this mess,that often you couldn't really give an idea of the delay.For example Mainland slapped a one per 20 min flow rate on me once,only one level available,and I've got 4 wanting start all at the same time.Sorry number 4 but you've got 1 hr delay.That's 150nm in trail separation.WHY? Don't know never will.:ugh:

In the UK it's between 5 and 10nm and lots of levels with RVSM.

I have always said a CFMU is needed there with companies getting slot times.Not the best system but a vast improvement on what you've got.
I have also heard that the Mainland use the same numbers as us,but swap the nm for minutes.I don't think things will change in a hurry,unless the powers that be have a look at other ATC systems.But then that would be losing face.:)

[Less is More]

Clearance delivery in HK spent so much time trying to sort out this messExcuse me, I thought Airways Controllers were doing that! and Clearance delivery is only a messenger.:confused:

[hongkongfooey]

I don't think things will change in a hurry,unless the powers that be have a look at other ATC systems

As somebody pointed out Dyce, the first part of fixing a problem is admitting you have one, this is not likely to happen in my lifetime here :ugh:

I appreciate that a lot of the problems with delays on the ground in HK are due to our friends up north, 10 min spacing ?? what the hell ?? thats 70nm ( @ GS of 7nm/min ), yeh have heard that one plenty of times, more than I care to remember.
But once we are arriving into HK, in HK airspace, they can't blame that on our northern cousins, and arriving in HK is definitely becoming more hit and miss
Cheers

[On the beach]

There used to be an unwritten policy on Air Ch1n@ many moons ago that all ATCOs travelling with them got upgraded to First Class. Don't know if it still applies but when you're down at 25,000ft have a look up and see if you can see any smiling faces in the first three rows of any Air Ch1n@ above you!!! If you can then the likelyhood is they will be landing before you. Purely by chance, you understand!!

On the beach :ok:

[galaxy flyer]

AVIATION PROFESSIONALS might just try a wee bit harder to understand the environment they "swim" in better rather than knocking 'em around. OTOH, don't get me started about UUWW!

GF

[PBY]

Generally speaking, I agree with most of the posts on this forum. But what concerns flying low, I find Chinese pilots actually prefer to fly very low as they view it as much healthier. This is, of course, valid for domestic carriers, because in long haul you would probably not make it to your destination. They don't seem to care about fuel consumption, as they are not pushed by airlines to save fuel, as is the case in western airlines. Very often it is impossible to save any fuel due to ATC. There seem to be a plenty of money to burn. But I have quite often witnessed guys refusing higher levels and staying happily 8 levels below. I seem to be the only one I know (ha,ha), who constantly tries to get higher level. It is true, that quite often higher level is not available. But I am trying to make the point, that Chinese domestic pilots most of the time don't try to get higher level. They will even blame it on being too heavy to climb to a level lets say around 350 (not exact in meters) when they fly A320 or B737