PAX get angry at YPPH [Archive]

Knackers

10th Jul 2009, 02:19

From WAtoday.com.au:

Police called in after passengers groundedNatasha Povey
July 10, 2009 - 9:35AM
Police have been called in to quell angry crowds forced to wait more than seven hours for a flight at Perth Domestic Airport.

Around 100 people were reported swelling around the Qantas flight desk after QF 648, which was due to depart at 12.10am today, had still not left by 6.30am.

The flight has now been cancelled. After affected passengers refused to go home, they were reportedly placed on a Virgin Blue flight at 10am to Melbourne via Sydney.

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Were you affected? Call 9220 1560 or email: [email protected]

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The Qantas Airbus A330-200 aircraft landed safely from Sydney last night and was due to refuel and fly to Melbourne.

John, a passenger on the plane, said the flight was finally cancelled after the plane sat on the tarmac for the whole night.

"(Qantas) kept changing the time - departing at 1.00, 1.20, 2.00, 2.15 and when we asked them what was going on, they said it was out of their hands," he told WAtoday.com.au.

"One family had spent $28,000 to take their kids skiing at Mt Buller, but that ain't gonna happen.

"So there were some pretty upset people."

He said Qantas handled the situation poorly, with very little communication to passengers explaining the situation.

"There were 10, 20, 50, then 80 people at the (customer services) desk," John said.

"Some were yelling, and then the police were called and diffused it."

Passengers had been told the plane, which was struck by lightning on its approach to Perth, had been deemed unsafe to fly.

After waiting for the flight all night, passengers were this morning instructed to collect their baggage and go home.

A statement from Qantas confirmed the plane was struck by lightning shortly before arriving in Perth last night.

"Following a strike, a series of mandatory inspections are required before the aircraft can be cleared to resume service. These are currently being carried out by our engineers," Qantas spokesman Joe Aston said.

"We apologise for the inconvenience to our customers but our priority is always safety before schedule."

packrat

10th Jul 2009, 02:42

The people in Perth have a right to get angry.
The domestic airport is crap and way over capacity.
A decision to upgrade the facility should have been made ten years ago.
Its appalling.
Perthians have also had to endure the maintenance problems associated with the 747-300.
The poor groundstaff at the airport are incredibly under resourced and under enormous stress daily.
It can get ugly..and often does.
Again the focus is on costs not customers

aveng

10th Jul 2009, 03:02

Not surprised that the lightning inspection wasn't done last night. Big storm in Perth last night with lots of lightning - not the time to be up in the cherry picker! I'm wondering why the DMM on duty didn't "can it" earlier (due to the weather). Cherry pickers are bloody good lightning rods.:confused:

The Green Goblin

10th Jul 2009, 03:11

I would have canned the flight in the bus if I were the crew too :)

Never can be too careful with a bit of the nasty stuff around :cool:

Minimbah

10th Jul 2009, 03:56

Article on ABC New Web Site Here - AFP calms stranded Qantas passengers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/10/2622261.htm)

Interesting pro Qantas comments from the public at the end of the article.

M

Ultralights

10th Jul 2009, 04:29

$28,000 to go skiing at Buller!! :eek: i would be pissed too!

Bootstrap1

10th Jul 2009, 04:47

QF have excess aircraft at the Jetbase most days at the moment. Surely some up and coming management could have made a decision to send a spare 330 to perth to save the company from another grilling from the state of WA

Capt Kremin

10th Jul 2009, 05:11

If the A330 can't leave Sydney before 6.00am due to the curfew, then it wouldn't get in to Perth much before 8.30 am anyway. So what is the point?

Ex FSO GRIFFO

10th Jul 2009, 05:12

6PR reporting that pax will be loaded onto a VIRGIN acft - apparently on cross hire (?) - for an afternoon departure - possibly around 2.30pm local or so....

Howard Hughes

10th Jul 2009, 05:28

Riot? Saw the footage on TV this morning of what looked like people standing in an orderly queue. Is Perth that sleepy that this is what qualifies as a riot?;)

tipsy2

10th Jul 2009, 07:18

Those pathetic "Airline" and "Airport" programs have allot to answer for.

What do these 'passengers' want, get on an aircraft that has been struck by lightning before it is checked and deemed safe. Do they expect an airline to have spare aircraft lying around at every port just in case. Do they expect there to be reserve crews sitting around at every airport as well.

Me, me, me, me, that seems to be all we ever hear from passengers expecting a champagne service but only want to pay $29 or so.

That strange sound you hear as the automatic doors open at the entrance to the terminal is not the door mechanism, it's an electronic sucker, sucking out the passengers brains as they enter.:E

greenslopes

10th Jul 2009, 07:24

Did you see the advertisement at the bottom of "the Australian" today where Virgin suggests the only word missing from Qantas' advertising is 'cancelled'!

Boob, Boom

ROH111

10th Jul 2009, 07:25

Boob?

:ugh:

mdt001

10th Jul 2009, 07:40

It doesnt matter why the a/c went tech. Pax have the right to be told truthfully what delays to expect.

teresa green

10th Jul 2009, 07:43

Load the whingers on board, tell them the A/C is unserviceable, but due to their complaining we will go anyway, however there is a few questions we need to ask first. (1) can you swim, (2) if we have to find a alternate airport are you prepared to share rooms, (3) due to electrical problems there will be no hot meals served, still want to go??? didn't think so. Just another example of society breakdown. It has always been widely accepted in past years that these things happen, nobodys fault, but in past years PAX may grumble but still accept the situation, now somehow you have to find a stray aircraft that is not doing anything at that moment to take these precious people to their destination immediately, as a previous posting said so correctly, ME ME ME! Bollocks!

prairiegirl

10th Jul 2009, 09:13

i'm guessing teresa would be changing her tune about all the breakdowns in our society right about 3:30am.:ooh:

divingduck

10th Jul 2009, 09:21

I hope that some of the comments posted here were tongue in cheek otherwise it shows just why the pax were revolting!
Midnight departure and then told eventually at 6.30am to take your bags and bugger off!??!
I couldn't care less if the flight was a dollar, you inform your paying customers immediately of any delays and their expected duration.
Jesus, I would be spitting chips after a 6+ hour delay only to be told to go home at the end of it.

Sp teresa and tipsy, I hope you were joking, those are the people that pay your salaries you are slagging off.
Perhaps we should let market forces decide and put you guys out of our misery?

Black Hands

10th Jul 2009, 09:36

Info from the Townsville refueller...
An alternative aircraft swap was suggested approximately 15 mins following the aircraft arrival, and not considered viable due crewing availability and restrictions.
Inital rescheduled departure time was 0330hrs local time. QANTAS Engineers completed post lightning strike inspections, tests and damage assessment at approximately 0400hrs.
Damage was determined beyond serviceable limits in consultation with structural engineers in Sydney at 0430hrs. Flight cancelled...
I take my hat off to the engineers out in the elements last night endeavoring to ensure a safe departure, and minimise schedule interruption.. You can't win them all fella's...

topend3

10th Jul 2009, 09:42

Many, such as packrat, fail to understand that the Qantas terminal is Qantas' responsibility to maintain and upgrade. The mods currently underway shall improve the existing situation greatly. Seems the situation here was not the terminal but the way in which the delay was handled.

Pedota

10th Jul 2009, 11:24

I am certain everyone at QF in Perth and elsewhere did their level best to sort the situation in the best way possible and as quickly as they could. It goes without saying good people really try to do the right thing even though events might be compounding around them.

Teresa Green and Tipsy2 referred to the “me me me” passengers . . . and Teresa Green said they were only paying $29. Maybe you are right in terms of the fare Teresa Green . . . but QF does present itself as a ‘full service’ airline which carries with it a number of assumptions. I would agree with you both if they were flying on a ‘low cost carrier’ . . . but QF is definitely not one of those.

There have been several recent threads in this forum focussing on the relative merits of ‘full service’ and ‘low cost’ airlines. While many ‘full service’ airlines recover very well from unexpected situations every day because of fleet flexibility, it is stories like the one in Perth that get the headlines.

The net effect is that customers and readers are left wondering why they don’t just buy a really cheap fare and run the risk of a messy disruption.

Another example - my frequent ‘premium flyer’ wife always buys fully flexible (ie expensive) fares so she can change flights at the last minute. This was not possible on QF yesterday . . . she was booked on a 4:30pm flight from Sydney to Melbourne and arrived at the airport at 2:15pm (not rush hour). There were no seats on any earlier flights (any class) and her flight was slightly delayed (20 minutes).

Given our recent positive experience with Tiger, she walked in the door muttering something about why is she paying for flexibility when she could have paid $39 instead.

I understand there was probably a good reason for the backlog in Sydney (cancelled flight or some such thing) and the people involved almost certainly worked their butts off trying to get the passengers away. And I agree that most of the time flights can be changed at late notice.

But there does seem to be an emerging theme of airline customers asking value for money questions . . . my wife joined the queue yesterday.

I hasten to add that an example of one proves nothing . . . and maybe yesterday was an aberration for QF in Perth and Sydney. But the Perth passengers and their families (and many readers of the newspapers) may well be asking the same questions.

Food for thought.

Cheers

Pedota

teresa green

10th Jul 2009, 11:41

Diving duck, after 49 years in the business, and having been stranded in airports all over the world for various reasons, more often than not with little info, and the same thing happening when I was working at the sharp end, with sudden engineering problems, never once have I heard the Wallopers had to be called because of the behaviour of the boarding PAX. Sh$t happens, the engineers did their best to get her airborne, but could not, being PER there was no available A/C to do the job, being the red eye makes it even worse, but it happened when TAA and Ansett did the work on more than one occasion, but abusing the ground staff was not a option, and not considered by most PAX, but then, people had manners, they were disapointed yes, probably angry as well, but very seldom abusive, and simply accepted the situation as it was. As I said, just another example of society breakdown and no, it was not tongue in cheek.

teresa green

10th Jul 2009, 12:09

Diving Duck, happens all around the world every day, angry pax, WX problems, engineering problems, you have been there, so have I, on many occasions, and with 35 years with TAA let me assure you, there were many times the Red Eye did not get away. Yes the PAX waited hopefully in the terminal, so did we, were they angry and tired, yes, did they abuse the ground staff, no, did we have ever have to call the Wallopers because of PAX behaviour, unthinkable, thats the difference, people had manners then, they don't now, they seem incapable of thinking beyond their own needs. The engineers did their best, but could not in all honesty sign the A/C out, being PER, you cannot drag one out of the hanger, or have a crew rearing to go, sh%t happens, far better to be a day late, then part of a smoking black hole,try telling that to these idiots whose abuse was so bad that the cops were called, as I said, just another example of society breakdown.

rob_ginger

10th Jul 2009, 12:11

I've done a lot of flying with Qantas (thankfully I haven't had to travel much for work in the last 10 years), and as SLF I can tell you that I get REALLY PISSED OFF when treated like a mushroom and told nothing. I must say that I don't approve of people abusing ground staff, but I can understand that being kept in the dark from midnight to 6:30 am (if previous comments in this thread are correct) would make anyone, including myself, angry. Remember, these are paying passengers here. There are many times when I have been sitting in departure "lounge" waiting to board and the inbound aircraft hasn't arrived - it's obvious that the departure will be delayed, but no announcement is made. Why not ? Maybe you don't understand what a difference a bit of information makes. On the other hand, I boarded a 747 in Kai Tak (a long time ago now !), and the captain came on and announced IMMEDIATELY that there was a problem with an engine warning light. He explained that it would be quicker to hold us all on the aircraft rather than unload/reload while the problem was looked at. In the end it took an hour and a half to fix the problem, and we received several updates on what was happening while we sat there. Everyone (well, everyone I was talking to nearby) was quite happy to sit there because we had been TOLD what was going on. It seems to me that the ground staff are much less informative than flight crew. Is that because the flight crew are "empowered" (I was going to say have more balls, but that would be PIC) ? Or are the poor ground staff kept in the dark just like the pax ?

Van Gough

10th Jul 2009, 12:29

but QF does present itself as a ‘full service’ airline which carries with it a number of assumptions

Strange..I always thought QF was a full price airline with low cost service?????

teresa green

10th Jul 2009, 12:32

Perdota, I don't know anything about 29 dollars, I did not mention it. My daughter was booked on that A/C. She works in the industry, never has she seen such abuse in a airport ever. The more the ground staff tried to tell them about the delay the more abusive and violent they became, as the night went on, it became worse, especially as some bogans had hidden grog (how the hell did they get that thru security)? it became a frightening situation, with some women choosing to stay in the toilet area, now I defy any of you to tell me that is ok? It is of great concern to all of you who work in the industry, if that is going to be acceptable behaviour everytime a A/C breaks down in the future, if it is, God help us all.

allthecoolnamesarego

10th Jul 2009, 12:51

Tipsy

Those pathetic "Airline" and "Airport" programs have allot to answer for.
:}:ok:

A cow
A dog
A little
A lot

Why is this so hard for people to get right??

Pedota

10th Jul 2009, 13:04

With the greatest respect to you Teresa Green, I stand corrected . . . it was Tipsy2 who said:

“Me, me, me, me, that seems to be all we ever hear from passengers expecting a champagne service but only want to pay $29 or so”.

Your latter post did support this sentiment – but not the $29 fare.

And by the way, it is Pedota and not Perdota – mythology will reveal a significant difference, although I thank you for the Shakespearian reference.

Kindest regards

Pedota

YPJT

10th Jul 2009, 13:11

What sort of nongs are running Q? Clearly they need some training in the appreciation process that would have led them to the decision that no one had the balls to make hours earlier.

Boomerang_Butt

10th Jul 2009, 14:11

Unfortunately, there was a lot more going on last night (I assume as the post was made this morning-Friday) that you are discussing events on Thursday night/Friday early am.

I don't know what effect it might have had on this situation, but from about 8pm to midnight Syd/Mel time, brown things hit the whirly things in Sydney and an ATC shutdown/restriction put the kybosh on most flights to and from. So as of this morning both QF and DJ (as well as the others) had numerous crews & aircraft sitting on tarmacs when they were meant to be elsewhere. I would guess getting things back on track on the east coast meant there was nothing extra to be sent west.

Of course the pax are understandably frustrated; there were many in Melbourne who were told a flight was going ahead with exemption from the curfew, only to be told right before departure that the flight was canned. But I did not see any unruly behaviour, only people lining up at the desk to get their hotel vouchers.

What it is about delays in Perth that turn people into chimps? I know it's not everyone but even in the last few months, I've seen some appalling behaviour towards the airport staff. Sometimes the ground staff have nothing to tell. I've seen them heckled for making announcements along the lines of 'we have no new information, boarding is still expected at xx o'clock" Cue swearing & name calling from pax.

It makes me ashamed to be from Perth sometimes! Teresa is right, people never used to act like this. While airlines hold some responsibility for the way they manage delays, pax need to realise they are responsible for their own reactions, and it is NOT an excuse to act like animals.

si8877

10th Jul 2009, 14:24

Its discusting how the passengers think they have the right to abuse the ground staff/flight attendants...Would I come into your workplace and start abusing you? As far as I am concerned I dont get paid enough to put up with that crap.
And as for the complaining passenger questioning why he flew qf anyway? You would be the first to look upon the crew for help if something were to happen!

YPJT

10th Jul 2009, 14:32

Its discusting how the passengers think they have the right to abuse the ground staff/flight attendants
Couldn't agree more but that is the result of cheap airfares. It allows the lower classes and socially inept to move about more frequently.

mostlytossas

10th Jul 2009, 14:43

I agree with that. Catching an aircraft today is like catching a bus. The fares are simular as is the leg room and inflight entertainment (nil) on LCC"s and not much better on Qantas. The food no better than a Roadhouse stop,and often worse.
So what do you expect will happen when passengers get tired and grumpy.
Not saying it is right,but that's how it is I'm afraid.

Managers Perspective

10th Jul 2009, 21:03

It seems that some are missing the point here when they infer that QF didn't have the balls to make the call.

From what I read here it seems that the engineers braved the conditions and completed the lighning strike inspections, BUT THE AIRCRAFT WAS DAMAGED BEYOND LIMITS.

Nobody can make the call beyond how long the inspection is going to take, when it is complete then you can make a call on the rectification time.

See the text below.

Inital rescheduled departure time time was 0330hrs local time. QANTAS Engineers completed post lightning strike inspections, tests and damage assessment at approximately 0400hrs.
Damage was determined beyond serviceable limits in consultation with structural engineers in Sydney at 0430hrs. Flight cancelled...
I take my hat off to the engineers out in the elements last night endeavoring to ensure a safe departure, and minimise schedule interruption.. You can't win them all fella's...

lowerlobe

10th Jul 2009, 22:23

Couldn't agree more but that is the result of cheap airfares. It allows the lower classes and socially inept to move about more frequently.
It doesnt matter why the a/c went tech. Pax have the right to be told truthfully what delays to expect.
Both true...but unless you were actually there and know what was said and who said it we are guessing....

We are relying on press reports and second hand statements.....
Another example - my frequent ‘premium flyer’ wife always buys fully flexible (ie expensive) fares so she can change flights at the last minute. This was not possible on QF yesterday . . . she was booked on a 4:30pm flight from Sydney to Melbourne and arrived at the airport at 2:15pm (not rush hour). There were no seats on any earlier flights (any class) and her flight was slightly delayed (20 minutes).

Given our recent positive experience with Tiger, she walked in the door muttering something about why is she paying for flexibility when she could have paid $39 instead.
Perhaps if your wife booked earlier she might have been able to book a seat on an earlier flight....

It's amazing how many people think that operating an airline is like running a car pool service....

They think that if the tyres are OK and the engine starts then off you go....No problems...why should aircraft be any different....

The main issue here is not that the aircraft was damaged by lightning and subsequently delayed and I'm sure that the engineers did their best...but were the lines of communication kept open....

If you let people know what is happening then most problems are stopped before they get out of hand.

The other issue is that the way the company is run.Managers are scared to make decisions lest they are held accountable....look at what has just happened to a certain ex manager in the US....

If you are too busy looking over your shoulder when you call the shots then you won't be making the best decisions.....

tipsy2

10th Jul 2009, 22:26

allthecoolnamesarego asks me

Why is this so hard for people to get right??

Because I am a cat, not an English Professor:ok:

allthecoolnamesarego

10th Jul 2009, 22:44

Tipsy:ok::D

Arnold E

10th Jul 2009, 23:57

Managers Perspective
If you are a QF manager, then god 'elp Q. Whilst it is true that the length of time for the inspection and its outcome could not be predicted accurately, this does not mean that contingency planning cannot be started until the outcome is known. within a few minutes of the aircraft going u/s other arrangements should have already been planned and that plan activated. In other words, by 04:31 everybody should have known what was happening:rolleyes:

meguro

11th Jul 2009, 00:06

Qantas Crew :"We're sorry for this delay, we needed to return to the gate for technical reasons, we will advise more details shortly."

Me" Hmmmmmmm......I am guessing a Qantas moment is coming"

Qantas Captain "Ladies and Gents, we have had a brake problem on the taxi to the runway and we expect to have it fixed an be underway shortly"

30 minutes later...

Qantas Captain "Ladies and Gents we now expect to be delayed further and we will actually be changing the brake assembly"

Me, to my surrounding passengers " We will not be flying tonight, it is a matter of time before we unload and go to the hotel"

Passenger's reply "But they just said we will be getting underway"

Me, "No we won't, no chance, curfew, parts etc"

45 minutes later.

Qantas Crew. " unfortunately we are going to have to disembark, you will be advised further by ground staff"

24 hours later another aircraft arrived to pick us up.

My point is, why, why, why do Qantas staff mislead passengers?

One factor I notice is, if they can delay facing the passengers until the next shift takes over they'll do it every time!

Capt Claret

11th Jul 2009, 01:18

In my experience to date.
Aircraft breaks, I ask engineer how long do you think?
Engineer says y mins/hours, I double this and advise ground staff.
Ground staff say, "I can't tell them that, I'll tell them half an hour and we'll see what happens".
Half an hour later ground staff says, "is it fixed, are you ready to go".
I say, "no, I told you (2 x y) mins/hours". Ground staff then lament, "but I've told them half an hour and they're all getting antsy".
:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I can only recall once that this time estimation method didn't hold true , only last week as it happens, when the engineer said 1 hour, and we were ready in just over 30 mins.

It is my perception, that ground staff set them selves up for a headache by trying to sugar coat the sad facts. In their support however, if they say, it'll be 2 hours and the aircraft is subsequently ready in half the time, many of the pax are missing because they find something useful to do with two hours.

Human nature I guess.

ampclamp

11th Jul 2009, 02:12

Good post CC.Sometimes you just cant win.
When I u/s a jet I think of a sensible time to fix and double it.There are nearly always peripheral issues to slow the process down. Stores,lack of bits in port, online maintenance doc's (pain and suffering in many cases) manpower / licence coverage, EA issuance, finding other problems as you carry out maintenance etc...

As for info passed onto pax I am surprisd sometimes at the flt crews honesty and detail they go into.I cant recall a PA where they've fed them nonsense.
What happens in the terminal I am not fully across but it seems to be practice to see dispatch times creep back in increments rather than the full monty up front.Its tough for them for a number of reasons.

I suspect as you say its about trying to keep the pax together when things are ready to go.They will wander off to bars, restaurants, wherever to pass the time (understandably) , some dont come back and then the porters go bag hunting to unload the luggage :ugh:

I'm not in perth so cant comment directly but lightning strikes take a long time to chk and you dont know its serviceable until the last inspection has been done.Perth being as remote as you can get in the western world is always a problem with replacement aircraft.The plane shuffling no doubt is a shocker.Crewing issues etc.Tough job.

I do believe, as others have posted, that there have been societal changes.A culture of complaint and entitlement (warranted or not ) where nothing is my fault and I deserve better and I deserve it now.

ROH111

11th Jul 2009, 02:31

Ahhh Monday's experts.

This post is about angry pax in Perth. Society is becoming very me me me, it is everywhere.

BUT as always, pprune should be renamed. This time to "QB".. the first opportunity that you guys see, you go about Qantas Bashin'.

The one's standing up for QF are clearly the one's in.. but as is basic maths, there are more out than there are in.. hence the toppled nature of the arguments.

Anyhow, back to it.

aveng

11th Jul 2009, 02:46

It makes me ashamed to be from Perth sometimes! Teresa is right, people never used to act like this. While airlines hold some responsibility for the way they manage delays, pax need to realise they are responsible for their own reactions, and it is NOT an excuse to act like animals.

There is an explanation to some of the behavior in Perth -

C.U.B. = cashed up bogans.

You'd be surprised how many fly in fly out miners from interstate are on these midnight flights - usually fully juiced on sherbets!

Boomerang_Butt

11th Jul 2009, 03:53

Aveng, I didn't want to be the one to say it.... :E

Guess from the lack of mention of the problems on the east coast that no one thinks it might possibly have been relevant...? E.g no reserve cabin crew coverage, no extra aircraft, no ability to depart flights to Melbourne/Sydney, more than just 1 disrupted flight, many of those pax inconvenienced before the Perth flight had a problem... etc etc etc... all would have had a flow-on effect as to QF's (and DJ's & JQ's) ability to manage severe delays on the night in question.

With regard to contigency plans being set in motion asap... all due respect, a certain amount of time has to pass before things are done like calling hotels, arranging vouchers etc... if this was done every time as soon as a delay started, it'd be a huge waste of time & resources as most delays do not end in situations as described above. I think in 4 years of flying I've only ever had 3 delays end up as canx flights. So to take essential ground staff from the desk and send them arranging hotels 1 hour in may make sense to the pax, but it doesn't make sense from a terminal/admin point of view. (Not saying this is right this is just how it is) As Murphy's law says as soon as you pack them off after 2 hours the problem will be fixed. So, not too smart to send people to hotels every time you cop a 2-4hour delay.

Agree with Claret that if you tell people a delay will be xx time, guaranteed half the pax will run off to the bar (especially in Perth). Sometimes if you think a delay is only going to be an hour or two, better to keep everyone in one spot ready to go. Lost count of the number of times we had to roam the terminal trying to find disappeared pax only to eventually offload bags when they failed to re-show, causing more delay than the original problem. One operator in Perth had the idea to collect phone numbers so pax could be called back if departure became earlier than anticipated. Unfortunately, some pax would still be having too much fun at the pub and not bother to come back.... Not sure what QF ground crew are trained too do, but the practise of taking a 'fix time' & doubling it is great if you get it done sooner, then everyone thinks you're a hero :}

assasin8

11th Jul 2009, 11:52

Ah, the "RuNe" experts are at it again (I've left the "PP" bit out as this forum doesn't deserve it!)...

Before anyone makes a judgement call, ask yourself if you were there and do you have all the facts? Now, by "facts", I don't mean the crap that's dished out by the media (we all know just how good they are at reporting aviation related stories!).

Sh!t happens! Aircraft components do break down... Engineers do an excellent job at fixing things, but can't always predict EXACTLY how long it will take, especially when more damage is discovered than what was originally thought... The whole process takes time and it can roll on... Frustrating, yes, but it's a fact!

Airlines don't have spare aircraft and crew just hanging around at every port just waiting for unforeseen circumstances! If passengers were prepared to pay extra for their tickets, then I'm sure "backup" could be everywhere... But they're not!

So, let's all grow up, start acting like adults and leave the attitude and "expert commentary" at home.:cool:

westausatc

11th Jul 2009, 13:50

I agree with Teresa et al about the whole 'me, me, me' societal thing.

However, Q (and all others in the aviation industry) are in the position of providing a service. If the people that Q gets to pay for a seat are from a 'me, me ,me' society, then Q have to adjust to that. We can lament it all we want on this website (trust me, my kids have heard 'you just need to harden up' more times than they have had hot dinners!) but at the end of the day, Q is in business to serve the society it is a part of. If that means that they need to pass on information more quickly (even if it incurs the wrath of the guests), then that is what they need to do.

From my perspective in the industry, there seems to be a reluctance to pass on information about the delays/problems that are going to happen/are happening. All of this is done as it is easier and it 'helps' to save face in the short term. If this is not changed, people will soon get jack of the lack of service (given the 'me, me, me' of our society) and decide to travel to different locations by different means. This will certainly be a loss to all of us and something we should be striving to avoid.

Pedota

11th Jul 2009, 13:56

ROH111 – You are absolutely right. I wasn’t there and I don’t know the facts. And as I said in an earlier post, I am sure everyone did their best to resolve the matter the best way they could given a compounding situation. That said, I don’t believe I am one of those Qantas Bashin’, as you put it. I too stand up for Qantas – it’s a great airline and I for one am very keen to keep it just that way. Indeed, that is my point.

That said, in my opinion customers are asking about the ‘value’ of paying for a ‘full service’ airline v’s a ‘low cost’ carrier.

Lowerlobe – Yes, if my wife knew exactly what time her commitments were going to finish she would have booked a flight to suit that time. One of the reasons she (and numerous others) pay premium fares with a ‘full service’ airline is to have the flexibility of making changes at the last minute. This is how business customers operate. I respect your right to disagree with this, but in my opinion the airline that can meet that expectation will win. Otherwise customers will simply ‘lock in’ to the $39 with a ‘low cost’ carrier and wait until the prescribed time.

Assasin8 – so, I could not agree more that . . . “Aircraft components do break down... Engineers do an excellent job at fixing things, but can't always predict EXACTLY how long it will take, especially when more damage is discovered than what was originally thought... The whole process takes time and it can roll on... Frustrating, yes, but it's a fact!”

However, from a customer’s point of view the difference is how well the airline recovers from such a situation.

If ‘full service’ airlines don’t have “spare aircraft and crew just hanging around at every port just waiting for unforeseen circumstances” (ie fleet and crew flexibility to recover from scheduling problems), what then is the value of a ‘full service’ airline over a ‘low cost’ airline?

Some passengers do indeed pay extra to ‘full service’ airlines with the expectation that there will be something of value return – and I can assure you it is not the food served in flight. And the bulk of them that I know don’t check in any baggage either.

I don’t for a moment condone ‘mob rules’ behaviour in any situation like what may have happened in Perth the other evening. But to simply pass it off as ‘bogan’ behaviour is also misleading. Don’t you sense there might be an emerging theme that customers are expecting what they have paid for?

Cheers to all

Pedota

Long Bay Mauler

12th Jul 2009, 02:02

The facts of the matter are that:

1. The Perth engineers declared the aircraft unserviceable early on as they had to do their inspections.As these take time and given the inclement weather,the powers that be should have recognised an impending PR disaster loomimg.

2. The decision making by those in Sydney Ops of whether the damage was within limits or not,should have led someone to the conclusion to cancel the flight early on.

Those who have been involved in lightning strike inspections know that it takes a long enough time to inspect the aircraft in good conditions e.g. a hangar with good lighting. Those guys in Perth that night were inspecting the aircraft from nose to tail in squally rain and wind, on a cherry picker at 2 o'clock in the morning,with further prospect of a lightning storm being in the area.The aircraft would have been swaying like a bucking bronco with droplets of water covering the skin thus further distorting the inspection process.

So can you honestly believe that a proper decsion can be made quickly in those conditions,added with every man and his dog asking "is it fixed yet",and given the terrible weather conditions that were apparently in the area.

For me,I dont think so.It was Sydneys decision to cancel the flight,and not Perths I believe.

Hopefully a lesson will be learnt(but I doubt it) that in really bad,ongoing weather,that sometimes it is easier to just cancel the flight,let the crew get to the hotel to restart the clock,and start again in 10 hours.Hopefully then Qantas will be commended for decisive decision making,and not what we saw the other night on the news.

Arnold E

12th Jul 2009, 02:02

It amazes me how some of you PP's talk about the people that pay your wages. Maybe there is the odd bogan, but as a class, they are not the biggest percentage. Perhaps we could talk about some of the bogan "professional" pilots that get angry when you find a fault on an aircraft (that has obviously been there for some time) and the bogan winge's that
"I wont get back on time, I'm prepared to say it was alright when I left here". No sonny, book a hotel for the night. GRumble grumble winge winge..... words like useless engineers heard, dispite the fact that it is their ar#e that we may be saving along with some of the aformentioned passengers. Fact is there are good and bad in every situation, but generally pax are ok if treated with some respect.:ugh:

kotoyebe

12th Jul 2009, 09:45

One of the reasons she (and numerous others) pay premium fares with a ‘full service’ airline is to have the flexibility of making changes at the last minute. This is how business customers operate.

Has it ever occurred to all those "very important business men/women" that even full service airlines charging premium fares can sometimes have multiple flights full? And that sometimes the airlines can't bow to every whim of the VIB instantaneously?

Sure, QF builds padding into the schedule so that it can charge those fares for people to change easily, but sometimes sh*t happens. That's how (the airline) business operates.

Arnold E

12th Jul 2009, 10:30

Kotoebe
Hicksville Alabama, sounds about right:ugh:

Eastwest Loco

12th Jul 2009, 12:25

You are never going to please all of the people all of the time - however - Mrs Loco (who works for Autorent Hertz here in DPO) was awaiting QF2057 yesterday 11 July with 2 inbound rentals.

WX was atrrocious with a screaming Northerly and very poor vis.

The groundies did their best to keep passengers updated, but were getting no info from anyone within QF.

The Dash diverted to LST and the first they knew about it was when one of the passengers texted the person waiting for them in DPO.

This is a poor performance from Ops. Possibly even the crew who no doubt had their hands full, but a quick squawk on company frequency would have at least allowed for some more planning.

Maybe the QF frontliners at PER would have benefited from being kept in the loop too. That may have stopped or lessened some of the bogan meltdown.

Too much updating and relaying of news and updates is never enough.

They need to know the situation and that in itself informs them that someone has remembered their plight.

Maybe there are just not enough staff left to do this.

Best all

EWL

argus.moon

13th Jul 2009, 10:18

In a word---its zero
No communication with Groundstaff
No communication with Pilots
No communication with Cabin Crew.
In short they communicate with no one.
They sit in poorly lit cubicles like groundhogs.
For them the world outside does not exist .
AJ has a big job to change the silo culture where nobody shares nuthin' with no one

Wonderworld

14th Jul 2009, 05:37

ZEEBEE

14th Jul 2009, 09:24

With apologies to the "Wizard of Id' (no, not you Darren)

Ground staff
Sire, Sire ...the passengers are revolting!!!

Skipper.
They sure are,

Captain.Que

16th Jul 2009, 22:09

Perth ground staff lash Qantas inaction

Steve Creedy, Aviation writer | July 17, 2009

QANTAS has come under attack for failing to support staff left to deal with angry passengers delayed by a lightning strike in Perth last week.
The Australian Services Union says staff are still furious they were left without enough up-to-date information to pass on to passengers stranded when an Airbus A330 was struck by lightning on approach to Perth airport last Friday.
The aircraft, which was due to operate the red-eye service to Melbourne early last Friday, was initially grounded for an inspection but was further delayed when the strike proved more serious than first thought.
Passengers became increasingly angry because they were not being told what was happening and staff were forced to radio for police help when the situation turned ugly.
The union says staff were left exposed, powerless and intimidated by angry people and it was just a matter of good luck that there was no physical violence.
This view was disputed by Qantas, which said it believed staff were supported on the night by duty managers and operations staff.
The airline said it had established an informal working group to investigate the incident and it was confident it could address some of the issues arising from the event.
"With the benefit of hindsight, we're implementing a review because we think we can actually implement some structures to prevent situations unfolding as they did," spokesman David Epstein said.
But ASU assistant branch secretary Pat Branson said her members were angry that they were continually forced to bear the brunt of customer anger about problems at Perth only to watch the airline do nothing about it.
She said the latest incident was the straw that broke the camel's back. The union took the unusual move of publishing the Perth manager's phone number and urging customers to ring him personally to complain.
"Staff are still angry about it and the sad thing from their point of view is that it comes on top of a lot of stuff in Perth where Qantas is not taking any notice of what's happening on the ground," she said.
"They are furious."
Perth airport has been a thorn in Qantas's side and a source of consumer complaints for years.
Two years ago, the airline announced it would spend $50 million on its terminal to ease unpleasant congestion during peak periods, including the installation of QuickCheck kiosks, new security screening, an expansion to the departure lounge and a boost to its baggage systems.
But Ms Branson said passengers were still miffed that not enough had been done to solve problems at Perth and the facility was still subject to constant queues.
"It's a mess," she said. "The facilities at the Perth domestic airport are the worst I've seen in Australia and they are more crowded."
ASU assistant national secretary Linda White said the incident highlighted continuing problems at airports with staff safety and the fact management had no plans to handle violence at terminals, even after this year's brawl at Sydney airport, which resulted in one man's death.
Ms White said the company had mishandled the Perth incident by leaving customer service staff to cop the brunt of it.
"They were supposed to be calm and keep the peace, but its pretty damn difficult when you've got no information coming through from anybody," she said.
She also described the airline's failure to publicly defend its staff as appalling.
"All we get is lame duck excuses basically," she said. "They don't really care; it's acceptable risk."
Mr Epstein acknowledged some staff were angry but said the airline's discussions indicated they were most upset by the presence of electronic media during the event.
He said the airline was moving to address this and would also look at having earlier trigger points for action at Perth.