Are Ryanair still taking on FOs?

[boundarylayer99]

I submitted my details to CAE a few months back and have heard nothing, not even an email acknowledging the fact that I completed the form. Is there still anything happening? I am not really a newbie as I already have 4000 + hours.

[Flintstone]

They'll be checking your bank balance and credit rating ;)

[djanello]

AFAIK, yes they are. But they have become increasingly critical on who they invite to the interview. Also, enlisting via the website puts you in a database. Every once in a while they pull out a list of valid candidates that have filled everything in correctly and conform to certain specifications. If you're not on top of that list, for whatever reason, they don't see your information. Hence you're never contacted. And the database of applicants is HUGE.

[jimbojetdriver]

Hi boundarylayer99, djanello is correct with what he said! Unfortunately though with 4000+ hours as an FO, RYR won't be interested in you at all. At the moment they are only taking on either DEC's or inexperienced cadets and recruitment for both has slowed down considerably as of late.

[burl]

As far as i am aware, the guys on the july type are the last this year, all others were called today and told that the other courses were cancelled until next april/may. It seems not even Ryanair are recession proof :=

[Stelios1984]

Well I passed assessment in May and haven't received a call. Hopefully I won't! Would be interested to see if anyone has been called though?

I would be surprised though, new aircraft are being delivered regularly, they have ambitious growth plans and new bases planned. Stopping T/R courses would halt all that.

[jimbojetdriver]

Stelios 1984, you wouldn't have got a call today if you haven't been given a official start date yet, if what burl says is incorrect your still probably looking at February next at least! A few friends of mine passed assessment late March early April and have all been given provisional dates in January. Theres a massive waiting list for TR's at the moment especially with them no longer using Stockholm!

I'm very interested to here if what burl has said is true, but to be honest I wouldn't be at all surprised. Expansion has not been like predicted at all this year and know with possible base closures in the UK things aren't looking great. Like what burl said "not even Ryanair are recession proof":uhoh:

[Swinglow]

I have a confirmed start date in oct, haven't heard anything yet....

[burl]

100% accurate that they have called people today that were due to do there type rating in October and november have been told that they have been canceled until april next year. Also was told that they may have to( but hasnt been decided yet) do the sim check over again because the cadets will have been so long out of flying.

[Superpilot]

Sim checks again!

That'll be another £250 then?

[g1344304]

My november type rating (october induction) at EMT has been postponed by 1 week so I am lucky. I know 2 guys who were starting in november have had theirs cancelled/long term postponed but not sure what their dates and training centre were.

[TheGlide]

Burl I think is a very irresponsible post! there are people waiting to do type ratings who may not have been contacted and for you to come out with that sort of post before people know is the lowest of the low.

[burl]

To the TheGlide, i was one off the lucky ones and have only recently completed my type, tho was made aware yesterday others havent been so lucky. This is a thread by its own name "Are Ryanair still taking on FO's" and the answer seems to be, no they are not, the next influx will be next year, recession permitting is suppose. The lowest of the low, i dont think so sunshine...informative, yes.:D

[EK4457]

The glide,

bit confused. Surely it is better to let cadets know ASAP rather than sit there fat dumb and happy?

I'd rather get the info from FR themselves, but they don't care. burl is at least giving people a heads up.

Hardly the lowest of the low

EK

[spudgunjon]

Anybody to back up/oppose what Burl has said?

Anybody directly affected by this who has received a call willing to shed a bit more light? It all seems a little bit of speculative conjecture at present with conflicting stories being posted.

I've also seen something on PPJN that could be relating to this...

[blackred1443]

no job security as your a contractor, airline has announced serious losses, more aircraft arriving that ideally they want to stop, airline run by a guy with no respect for our profession, seriously dodgy tactics being employed by the airline to stop you flying once you get some hours under your belt, unpaid leave forced on you,masses of hiring going on...why,is it because they make money on type rating......and all this for 35k euro.anyone else think this may not be such a wonderful idea:confused:

[CommandB]

Guys, I was in your position a few years ago.
From the chat in the crew rooms right now, FR have stopped recruitment until November time as this year we have already taken on 220 cadets, a little less than last year for obvious reasons. However there are a few internal issues going on right now which need to be solved first - which im sure some of you on here can guess!!

Also one final point, DO NOT believe everything you read on here, blackred1443's post is a prime example. Id be happy to dissect his post to ruins if you have any questions....!

[MVE]

blackred1443, you are wasting your time mate, these idiots will not take any advice that hints at NOT joining Ryan...
They believe that this outfit is some magic institution that pays well when charging them for everything from water on board to parking their cars, that not providing them with insurance or a pension is sensible when they are 'self' employed, that paying over the odds for a type rating is ok when they have to pay for 'selection' :ugh:

The mind boggles :mad:

CommandB, would you be happy to shoot down the latest rumour that they are now going to charge for command assessments? What numpty would pay to be assessed for a command? Surely that would be a sign that your unfit for command in any descent organisation!

[CommandB]

MVE, I will certainly answer your question sir.
Ryanair have stated that due to ongoing issues internally they are CONSIDERING applying a fee for your command upgrade. This has not been introduced so dont get confused. This is NOT happening yet and is probably a tactic regarding the ongoing recognition issues. However I do know that in the UK currently all CU have ceased while the issue of recognition is ongoing.
MVE I do not wish to argue with you and I hope I have answered your question. By taking the aggressive tone in your previous post regarding calling FR pilots/cadets "idiots" just makes you look bad. Why resort to immature name calling when they have done nothing to you...?! I suggest if you have nothing better to do than call people names then dont post.

Oh by the way - we dont pay for our water on board!
As I said - DONT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON HERE! (good and bad!)

[MVE]

CommandB point taken on the water issue, so Ryanair at least go some way to taking responsibility for the duty of care they are required to show you by EU employement law then ;-)

How about sick pay? can any contract pilot expect sick pay?
Life or license insurance?
Medical insurance (how about for their families?)?
Choice of holiday time?
Any conmplaints procedure if you think you are treated unfairly?

Perhaps calling the WANNABIES that are interested in joining your outfit idiots is a bit harsh when I should have said naive? inexperienced? desperate? blinkered?

I'm not interested in an argument either but perhaps what is needed is a more reasoned response from the likes of yourself also.

What frustrates me about the Ryanair t's and c's nonsense is that wannabees seem to think Ryan is some kind of magic airline that can pay well while given you zero extras that the rest of us get as standard. Admitedlly recently it comes down to the fact that they are the only airline recruiting (or were) but why is that? Anything to do with the fact that 'cadets' are grossly underpaid during training? That they overcharge for a TR to make more money out of you/them? That they can change t's and c's on a whim and there is sod all you can do about it? How about forcing unpaid leave? What am I saying there is no 'paid' leave for contractors?

And the final question....Is the Brookfield contract even legal? what other airline do you work for as a brookfield contract pilot? if the answer is no other then you are not self employed and therefore claiming lower tax liabilities illegally....so no argument, how about just straight forward honesty so the wannabies reading this thread might see more than ' they are the only ones recruiting'

[blackred1443]

sorry which part of my post in inaccurate command b...do tell.anyone that pays for a type rating right now with the terms offered needs mental health care.its completely ridiculous to even consider joining.what part of it could possibly appeal to anyone. not to mention how people fail to see how the ryanair offer is pathetic, with absolutely no guarantee of anything other than the fact you will get screwed.its very obvious why ryanair keep running these course, its because they make a fortune on charging for the type rating....there are no jobs at the end.ryanair are overcrewed,why else was unpaid leave forced on people last winter.probably not because they were short of pilots:ugh:

how people cannot see this for what it is is just beyond me.you may as well stick the 35grand on a horse at least you would have some hope of a return on your money

i always believed that part of our profession required people to be able to get to the bottom of things, to be able to find the root cause/reason behind something.see through the bull.now is the time for newbies to demonstrate this quality for the sake of their own financial futures

[MVE]

Sadly the generation we are talking about here (for the most not all granted!) are not willing to work there way up and cannot see the wood for the trees. They believe that paying for a type rating and then only being offered a contract is not such a bad thing, experience will show them otherwise!

If the cash for the training is unsecured and they can default then what's to worry about? if it's secured against a parents property then let's hope the parents have more common sense and stop funding this airline which is based on false economy.

It's easy for those of us in jobs to lecture those not but try to use the brains that got you through the useless atpl exams....Ryanair is not an employer it's an exploiter!

Stack shelves, paint houses, empty bins, mow lawns, become an accountant, work in an office but don't fund Mickey Mouth's airline for him!!!:ugh:

[blackred1443]

couldnt agree more with you.sorry if im preaching though,this is basic common sense.i finished my training during last downturn.i had to wait my turn,just sit it out.same now these guys have to do the same.this isnt a career with a quick fix.it takes time.do whatever it takes to keep your head above water and wait for the oppurtunities to arise the likes of ezy, charter companies,netjet etc they will all hire again.not so sure about ba but thats for another day:}

but please stop this race for the bottom by paying into all this ridiculous insult ryr and crookfield offer.ITS A SCAM

[CommandB]

MVE, Blackred1443,

I agree with some points you have made. You are quite correct BRK pilots do not get sick pay, loss of licence...etc. But personally I already have that covered so its not as big-a-deal for me however I can understand the implications for others.
I disagree with underpaid. During my line training a few years ago I was taking home NET around £2000 - £2400 easily. That has only gone upwards...! And my Ts and Cs have not changed at all. Maybe me and the other F/Os i know are lucky!! I am not claiming that I can speak for the whole pilot workforce, I understand some guys have a bad experience however im sure this happens in every airline. Infact I know it does.

"CommandB point taken on the water issue, so Ryanair at least go some way to taking responsibility for the duty of care they are required to show you by EU employement law then ;-)" ----> :ok: We get milk too...! haha

Guys, like I said at the start - I see your POV and there are good and not so good things about BRK, I understand every single pilot will have slightly different views on this. However for me the GOOD vastly outweighs the bad so we can bicker on here or just accept we have differing views.

Just to answer the question, again, from the beginning. Ryanair are not recruiting at this time!

[boyo975]

CommandB... It depends what you're comparing it with, stacking shelves at Tesco, then it's VERY well payed!. I was earning over £3k+ net as a junior F/O on a 737 10 YEARS ago. And I was payed to do the TR!

Apologies for the thread creep.

[CommandB]

Yep, you are completely correct. However unfortunately for us, times have changed. T's and C's 10 years ago are null and void in todays market or so it seems. I personally think 2.5 grand for a few hours work a month is pretty good when your fresh out of your FTO! Line training is only 2months at max so 5 grand in two months. Basically what you get stacking shelves in tescos for the year! Plus it keeps going up and up!! The downside to the BRK contract is that you do not have a set salary, but I have not found this to be much of a problem. I get paid enough to pay for everything I need + alot more I can assure you!
Yes its a bit frustrating having to pay for the TR and a few years ago it was around 10K LESS than it is now. Thats not very good but id rather be here in my position now - training loan about to be completely paid off, TR loan already paid off, than on the dole or stacking shelves!
Each to their own I guess....!

[N739FC]

CommandB

Wish I had know they weren't recruiting, I was called for an assessment on the 25 June. I was not successful, but then none of us were (8 in total).

Regardless of how I performed, I can only assume that at least one of us should have been up to standard and now only conclude that even Chesley Sullenberger himself wouldn't have been succesful as there were no
vacancies.

Does anyone know if there has been any assessment days since mine? If they never intended on offering us contracts they should have cancelled the assessment as including travel, 3 hours sim prep, hotel and the assessment fee itself, it was a very expensive day.

[smiler68]

I think Command B is the only person on this thread that has any clue what he is talking about. We are getting first hand experience from someone who is actually flying the LINE for RYR here so I think he knows what he is talking about, do you not agree blackred1443 and MVE?? Do you actually fly for RYR yourself? Thought not.
It doesn't sound all that bad at all to me and I cannot wait to get started on my TR later in the year. The afforementioned names above need to lay off all the newly qualified pilots out there, after all, it wasn't their fault that the world went and decided to screw itself just as they got out of training was it? And don't be ridiculous when you say everyone should go get a job painting or stacking shelves instead, if you were in the same position where the only option was to front up 30k ( or 32,725euros for you nit pickers as i'm sure afforementioned are) to fly for the biggest LCC in Europe, of course you would take it, if you wouldn't you're obviously not committed enough to aviation in order to try and do everything humanly possible to get into that RHS. In which case, I feel for the airlines you work for.

[EK4457]

N739FC,

sorry to tell you but this has been the case for nearly a year now.

Every fATPL person I know who has graduated in the last 18 months has had an FR assessment in EMA. Thats around 15-20 pilots. Some are pilots who have won awards for their flying.

None successful.

Perhaps FR demand RAF fast jet standard applicants. Or perhaps they are charging for assesments when they have no jobs.

EK

[smiler68]

EK4457,
This hasn't been the case for almost a year, I think only in the past couple of months has recruitment for RYR really slowed. I have been hearing of succesfull applicants up until about may this year, albeit they have passed selection, but haven't as yet been given a confirmed start date for TR, which looks most likely now that this won't be until april earliest next year. A lot of it probably also comes down to which FTO you did your training at, as RYR I know like to select from a handful of FTO's that they know produce a high calibre of cadets.

[StudentHenry]

anyone that pays for a type rating right now with the terms offered needs mental health care

Oh come on! How many times has that issue been debated on pprune?! Please find me an airline that, in 2009, will employ a pilot and not charge them for their first Type Rating! Whether the pilot pays direct or gets a reduced salary and/or 3 year bond, the pilot bears the real cost of the TR. There may be exceptions to this generalisation, but are they recruiting?

They believe that paying for a type rating and then only being offered a contract is not such a bad thing

It's 2009, not 1969. Times change, drastically. How come all the Captains and First Officers from whom I have garnered advice (including people from inside and outside Ryanair, from those recently retired from BA, those running big Airlines, and those recently qualified and flying for locos) think that Ryanair is the best option for a job in the current circumstances? It only seems to be people on pprune who castigate Ryanair candidates.

Every fATPL person I know who has graduated in the last 18 months has had an FR assessment in EMA. Thats around 15-20 pilots. Some are pilots who have won awards for their flying.

None successful

The inside line is that about 1 in 10 are historically successful. My sim partner had a mare on the day, but I've seen him fly very well in the past. It's like any exam, you have to perform very well. I was lucky I had a good day at the office.

Running the assessment days almost certainly isn't a money maker when you consider the cost of running the simulator, the time of the interviewers etc. It was fairly common knowledge 6 months ago that the spate of recruitment was coming to an end in the Spring. I was successful at about that time. I suppose recruitment has slowed and now stopped because of the looming winter and the fact that the TR courses are full until the end of the year.

It depends what you're comparing it with, stacking shelves at Tesco, then it's VERY well payed

I've heard from guys on the line at Ryanair that they (on Brookfield contracts) averaged 75 hours per month in their first year and there was no decrease on hours after they reached 500 on type. That's about £40,000 before tax if you squeeze in 800 hours in that first year. Obviously, the policy on hours will vary across the company and will depend on where you're based and whether they like you, but I've not see any evidence from within Ryanair that you'll get the TR and your 500 hours and then be put out to pasture.

These are just my thoughts on the matter. I am not saying you'll feel loved at Ryanair, but it's not all bad. :)

[mikehammer]

Running the assessment days almost certainly isn't a money maker when you consider the cost of running the simulator, the time of the interviewers etc

No, but it does offset their costs somewhat. When you start charging a fee for something which used to be expected to be free, don't be surprised when the cynics spot the flaws in the spin.

[BigNumber]

Surely if BRK pilots are not guaranteed a minimum number of hours in their contracts then recruitment can continue without reserve?

If I were FR, I would be seeking an infinite number of BRK Cadets, all paying generously for their TR. (And still they would come!!)

Once recruited, 5-10 hours per month would be the new order of the day! The passengers will continue to enjoy heavily subsidised seats courtesy of the Cadet in the Co's seat!

Perhaps MOL has greater integrity than I gave him credit for?! I'd be keeping the tills ringing!

[MVE]

smiler68, it doesn't sound that bad to you because you know no better and you will take any offer no matter how bad, sadly the attitude you describe as committed is what mickey mouth uses to exploit you. We'll speek agin in 10 years or maybe 2 and see if you have the same opinion.

Best of luck to all those looking for work in these tough times and for the record I missed out on a fully paid cadetship/atpl course because of Sept 11th so I need no lessons on hard times. I worked 7 days a week scraping hours instructing and doing all the jobs described above. All I'm saying is go into it with your eyes open and not just your wallets!!!

[BigNumber]

"All I'm saying is go into it with your eyes open and not just your wallets!!!"

Credit is getting much harder to secure. It's poetic justice that just as hard times gave rise to these dreadful 'pay your dowry' schemes it will also see their demise.

(Assuming the bank of Mum and Dad is not willing to pay!)

Enough; I'm off down 'Bar Med' anyone coming?

[StudentHenry]

Surely if BRK pilots are not guaranteed a minimum number of hours in their contracts then recruitment can continue without reserve?

Yeah, but it seems that cadets at FR are getting around 800 hours a year with no decrease after 500 hours.

We know that there are few jobs out there and the economy is unlikely to pick up until 2011 when hundreds of qualified pilots will be applying for the trickle of jobs when recuitment resumes.

I was thinking about the net position after 2 years :-

Option 1: Flying Instructor, if you can find one in the slowdown.
Potential income over 2 years (including 2 winters): £17K.
Net income after paying for FIR: £10K +/-.
Total hours: 1250 SEP +/-.
Other issues: Don't pay to keep current. Very employable, but mainly to TP operators. May have to move to find an FI position. You won't feel loved.

Option 2: Ordinary Job, if you can find one. Have you tried?!
Potential income over 2 years: £30-40K.
Total hours: 250 SEP +/-.
Other issues: Must pay to keep current. Employable in good times. Will wish you were flying.

Option 3: Ryanair.
Potential income over 2 years including wait for TR to start: £60K +/-.
Net income after paying for TR: £30K +/-.
Total hours: 250 SEP; 1200 +/- on type.
Other issues: Nearly in a position to unfreeze ATPL. Very employable to all airlines. Probably have to live abroad. You won't feel loved.

Okay, so these are rough figures and generalised, but even if the income and hours are not always achieved, I think they demonstrate that paying to join FR isn't the end of the world. In many ways it's a heck of a lot better than trying to get an ordinary job, which isn't easy because of the recession.

[CommandB]

EK4457 "Every fATPL person I know who has graduated in the last 18 months has had an FR assessment in EMA. Thats around 15-20 pilots. Some are pilots who have won awards for their flying. None successful"

Either you know very low standard pilots or this is completely false. I personally know 3 guys who had interviews in Sept/October last year and were on the first few TRs this year. Infact one sat his Supernumaries with me a few week ago and is now doing his line training! So your lying my friend.

N739FC, No you've misunderstood me. Perhaps it was my phrasing of the last few posts. They have now stopped recruiting. If you had / have an interview (coming up) that is STILL valid. If you are successful you will be told your start date is around Nov time, im guessing. However if you try to apply now, you cant. Just because you went to assessment and no one got in, well without trying to offend you - none of you reached the minimum standard. Thats life im afraid. Maybe you all had a bad day.
What with the industry as it is now with the massive influx of pilots, they can afford to be very picky.
So just to clarify once again if you have had an interview or have one booked, coming up - it is still valid you can still "get in" you just wont start until the end of the year. But all recruitment, if you havnt applied yet, is closed. Hope that clears it up!

[Zyox]

CommandB: Appreciate all the input you've been having, a rare thing around here when everyone loves to jump on the anti-RYR bandwaggon. Just one question though... burl mentioned the postponement of TR courses with cancellation of all this years ones and it's looking like end of 2010 or beginning of 2011 for all those cadets selected from spring onwards. I ask because I've now heard this word of mouth twice and on here but you say people are starting in Nov/Dec, or at least being told that still. Know anything about that?

[Swinglow]

@Zyox I have a TR coming up in Oct so clearly not all courses are cancelled.

@EK4457 I talked to the recruitment lady at bfsaa (one of two recruitment agencys working with RYR) and according to her about 50% of all the applicants manage to get an assessement and only 5-8% get an TR offer.

@blackred1443 and MVE I believe that the topic was "Are Ryanair still taking on FOs?" and not "If you buy a TR you are an idiot"

[Zyox]

@Swinglow This is what I'm trying to find out :/ I've been hearing all 2009 courses postponed like as burl posted. Very much hope is a rumour but like I said... trying to find out :) So unfortunately it's not "clear" at all.

[Swinglow]

@Zyox Have you heard this somewhere else then on PPrune? As we all know not everything you read here is thrue. Remember the rumour a few weeks ago about being laid of after 500h!

[Zyox]

@Swinglow I have. And that's what's prompted asking.

[CommandB]

Zyox, Not a problem. I know how frustrating it can be trying to get a sensible answer on here! But that moan is for another day :}
Word in the crewrooms are that cadets are still on for starting in October time and Swinglow confirms this as he/she is starting in October. :ok: Best of luck to you all.

[Zyox]

Thanks CommandB. Hopefully that's the case. Cheers muchly for the reply :ok:

[intercooler]

I have my TR in October as well, and I have heard nothing from RYR about any delays for me.

I guess the courses that were recently postponed until March-April 2010 were originally planned for late 2009. So, still hoping for October.... :)

[MrHorgy]

I think Command B is the only person on this thread that has any clue what he is talking about. We are getting first hand experience from someone who is actually flying the LINE for RYR here so I think he knows what he is talking about, do you not agree blackred1443 and MVE?? Do you actually fly for RYR yourself? Thought not.

I gave up posting on Pprune a long time ago. I'm a senior FO at Ryanair, I have over 1400hrs now, up from my 200 I had when I joined 18 months ago. Pprune is a venting station for anger against persons that have done better than others. The arguments wheeled out against RYR and O'Leary are the same bleatings they were 2 years ago.

My advice - sound out some REAL RYR employees if you can, and ask them yourselves.

Regarding training, I have been quoted a figure of 120 cadets for this years intake, and there are some base training at the moment. Type rating courses are being delayed now until next year. Forgive me, but is this not sound logic? Would you rather pay your 30,000E and then get no flying, when your based on a contract that pays you PER HOUR? It's not rocket science.

Horgy

[MVE]

Horgy welcome back. It's not a case of doing better than others if you work for RYR, you cannot be so dilluded that you actually think that. RYR is now the ars@hole of the industry, be it for terms and conditions or customer service. Whther you want to admit it or not you and your colleagues are driving down T's and C's for the rest of the industry.

Don't mistake honest banter and discussion for sour grapes. :ugh:
You are very welcome to RYR but nothing that REAL RYR empolyees have said on this thread has convinced me to stop encouraging others to think twice before paying for a TR at 30,000 euro's!!! for a job with no security as a contractor. Yes as a CONTRACTOR, no guarantee of a job or hours or sick pay etc.

Get over yourself fella. You are encouraging people to spend way over the odds on a TR to work as a contract employee with no rights or say. It's not rocket science!

[blackred1443]

for what its worth i have never worked for ryr, but i fail to see how this is in anyway relevant.i've never worked for RBS that doesnt mean that i dont understand how fred godwin cocked it up nor have i never been the manager of manchester united doesnt mean i dont know anything about the team.so why just because i have never worked for ryr does that mean that i am wrong in what i am saying.the reason being im 7 years at this and have over 4000 hrs jet, while im far from the voice of experience i would like to think i have built up sufficient experience to spot a scam when i see it.ryr type rating scheme is a scam lets be honest here...the only thing they guarantee is that your 35 grand lighter at the end of it.no promise of a permanent job,no promise of a permenant base, no promises just bull£$%^.these are the facts, and there unfortunately now we're seeing a race to the bottom in this industry being led by ryr.i've worked hard at this and i deeply resent it.to be honest the most troubling thing is all these brand new guys with their brand new licenses think they in some way know it all and that someone like me is blowing smoke out of my backside.when infact they know next to nothing.the great thing about this industry is as soon as you start to disregard the advice of people who are more experienced you tend to get bitten in the backside

if all ye guys want to give o leary 35grand then be my guest but when you get well and truly shafted with forced unpaid leave,short notice base changes, or laid off indefinately because they are great over crewed or your too expensive(because remember they make a cracking profit on the type rating),having to buy your own water,no crew food,paying for your lpc,setting up your own company and all the dodgy tax dealing with crookfield then dont say ye werent warned.

i hope im wrong and i wish ye all the best because you need a great portion of luck to get ahead as a pilot, but please dont make yourselves look arrogant by dismissing the opinion of those who have been in the game longer than you.i dont know everything but im long enough around to know i never want to work for that posionous midget o leary.

[MrHorgy]

Every airline has their faults. Pilots will never be happy, the grass will always be greener.

Pilots are the most unadaptable people at times, some of the guys i've spoken to think it's almost criminal they have to take an empty bottle of water to work and fill it up. Times are changing, and people have to adapt with them. I don't see any problem with filling my bottle up. Plus it saves money. Plus the water is colder. Plus it saves X amount of waste on bottles.

Even if O'Leary implemented all the changes BALPA want, pilots would still want more. In summary, if we we're all given company women/men at our disposal, pilots would moan their breasts weren't big enough!

I accept, in some cases, Ryanair customer service leaves a lot to be desired. But so does BA, and Virgin, and Thomas Cook, and <insert airline name here>. No-one is infallible.

I second COMMANDB's comment regarding the employment situation as it stands. There is no-one else recruiting. If there was, you would pay for your rating, either outright, or in the form of a reduced salary. As it is, I have successfully offset my Type Rating cost, and every single cost involved with Ryanair I have incurred against my tax bill.

In summary, I work 5/4. The planes don't break. I clear £4,000 a month. I fly brand new simulators. My roster doesn't get changed at late notice. I have an open channel of dialogue to my base captain, head of operations, the flight safety office, and much more. More importantly, I enjoy my job.

I see the message you are trying to convey - think twice before embarking on significant investment in an airline, that involves a large expenditure. That is advice I heartily endorse. All i'm saying is that RYR really isn't as bad as everyone says it is. As CommandB says, if you wish to question a specific T&C or point regarding the operation, i'm happy to give you my response, as long as you won't shout me down as being in bed with our management. The people (not necessarily you) who peddle this anti-Ryanair drivel just bang on about generalised statements and refuse to accept any other point of view. And that is exactly why I got fed up of posting on pprune.

Horgy

[MrHorgy]

Blackred -

I suppose you'd heartily endorse my friend's experience at ThomsonFly then. Told subject to training he'd have a job at the end, shelled out his money, went to Jerez and was told there was no job when he finished.

Ryanair is just an easy target for what is happening industry wide, it's just not as well publicised.

And yes, I am "referred to" as Senior, in the sense I have 1 years experience at Ryanair. Whether I would regard myself as senior is another kettle of fish. In a nutshell, I have 3 bars instead of 2.

Horgy

[MVE]

Horgy, a well reasoned and valid response. The only thing you have said that I find difficult to accept is the issue regarding your tax issue, the whole tax situation that Ryan encourages is a con. They save a small/large fortune in tax and contributions themselves by having you contract as self-employed.

It's there to make you think you are earning well but have you deducted all your expenses, paid for insurance, in short reduce that 4000 by all the benefits that the rest of the industry take for granted.

Have you taken any legal advice on this tax situation? Because whilst it would be bad enough for RYR to lay some of you off because they can if they need to, but what about the double wammy of facing a huge tax bill from an Inland Revenue wising up and no job?

Enough from me..best of luck all.:ok:

[g1344304]

Heres my experience: Offered a TR in October after passing assessment in early 2009. 2 Friends offered TRs in November after completing the assessment also in early 2009, 2 of my friends also failed.

A few days ago my 2 friends were contacted and told their TRs were cancelled/indefinitely postponed (most likely until april 2010). I brick it when I hear this and 5 minutes later I see an email from RYR HR pop up on my screen so I really brick it. My TR was still going ahead in Oct but was delayed by 1 week, I have also heard of an earlier TR still going ahead in Oct.

No one out there is saying RYR is the best job in the world but it beats scrapping around as an FI or in Mcdonalds (which I have tried). paying for interview, parking pass, uniform, insurance etc is something we all consider. We know the score, RYR pay me to fly plane, they have no commitment to me, nor I with them (3 months notice to BRK sux tho). They do not guarentee anything but everyone I know with them are flying lots of hours and happy as a pig in muck. Its not forever but its a good start when times are tough.

[Backofthenet]

I passed my assessment which took place in May. My TR is scheduled for Nov. I have heard nothing about postponement for my date - this is backed by my colleagues on the same TR.

Taking each day as it comes :hmm:

BOTN

[EI 214]

I passed my assessment in East Midlands at the end of March and was offered a TR in late November (was origionally told August :*). Unfortunatley I got the dreaded phone call saying its now delayed until April at the earliest. Was also told that the interviews are only valid for 1 year. There was a mention of sim sessions to keep the interview valid but it was very vague and had to be confirmed. There certainly was no mention of having to repeat the sim cx to me. Can anyone confirm if they've been told otherwise regarding the sim cx??

[GBB]

Mr Horgy,

You been demoted by Mr pressman, hehe :}

[CommandB]

Pressman,
I think you are looking in too deep. What mrHorgy means is he has 3 stripes...

Also those who where at FR before they got rid of the "SFO" title and havnt gone for command (there are a few around) still carry the SFO title on voyage reports.

[blackred1443]

:ugh:give me strength

[LAX]

Things change very quickly in RYR. Sadly for those at the bottom of the ladder the company has decided to play politics and freeze all command upgrades/promotions for those based in the uk. This effectively means around 1 third of all FO's in the company are frozen out of the command upgrade process. No moves at the top mean no new slots at the bottom, however, if you are a direct entry 737 skipper its wounderful news.

I dont see this situation changing until BALPA/DUBLIN stop bashing horns.

It sucks, but good luck to you all:ok:

[quant]

Yes they are....

Ryanair, the World’s favourite airline, today (21st July) announced a 40% capacity cutback in its Stansted Winter Schedule starting in October ’09. Ryanair operated 40 aircraft from Stansted this summer but will reduce this to 24 aircraft (a 40% reduction) this winter with a 30% reduction in the number of weekly flights and a loss of 2.5m passengers at Stansted between October and March 2010.

Ryanair - News : Ryanair Cuts Stansted Winter Capacity by 40% (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=jul&story=gen-en-210709)

[quant]

They will definetly need your money now more than ever:

Ryanair is to cut 670 flights a week, close ten routes and reduce frequency on a further 30 routes in the biggest winter shake-up for the airline so far.

Ryanair to put scheduled routes on ice over winter - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6722585.ece)

Plenty of jobs around :sad:

[Mikehotel152]

but will reduce this to 24 aircraft (a 40% reduction)

Wasn't it 26 aircraft last winter?

Anyway, this is hardly a surprise. Everyone is expecting this Winter to be worse than last. Maybe they are being forced to remove the aircraft from the line for base training. :E

[quant]

Anyway, this is hardly a surprise. Everyone is expecting this Winter to be worse than last. Maybe they are being forced to remove the aircraft from the line for base training. :E

hehe :)

Mikehotel152 = M o'Leary? :E

[Mikehotel152]

Ha ha ha. Play fair! What I wouldn't do for his millions...

:p

[RYR_and_proud]

T7C

As far as I know yes, RYR has frozen recruitment for cadets. I think interviews may be still ongoing for the people who were already given an interview date but they will be over soon! The exact same thing happened around the same time last year, all recruitment was frozen until January and I'm pretty sure thats whats happening this year!

I honestly can't see anymore TR's going ahead this year either, AFAIK the last confirmed TR this year starts next week. It has already been said on this thread that the November course and onwards have been cancelled, but to any of the guys on the October course reading this don't get your hopes up. You guys are yet to receive any contracts and are somewhat on reserve, if things pick up and new bases are scheduled to open then it will go ahead, if not (more than likely) then you will be joining the long queue of cadets waiting next spring! I hope for your sake it does go ahead because if it doesn't, the assesment will have to be retaken, and thats certainly something I would not fancy doing after not flying in almost a year!

Regards,

[LAX]

My advice to you newbees is keep your 30K for the type rating, sit tight, wait until the market picks up and go elsewhere. Why put yourself under financial pressure for Ryanair in the current economic climate - a company forcasting to make 2-300 million euro this financial year.

The sooner you boys and girls wake up and realise that Mickys low fares are subsidised using your own personal credit, the better for all at the top and bottom of the pilot proffession.

[smiler68]

RYR AND PROUD....Do you fly for RYR?

[RYR_and_proud]

Smiler 68

Yes I do fly for RYR and I know exactly why you are asking. I know it can be very hard to trust anything that has been said on these forums but whether you or anyone else believes me is entirely your choice, I honestly couldn't care less!

I presume from some of your earlier posts that you are one of the cadets on the October course, the best advice I can give you is to sit tight, cross your fingers and hope for the best! Also, If you want I can PM you a few links to some excellent websites in order to help you get a head start on the TR!

Honestly I can understand why you are going to be frustrated, you and your colleagues have been waiting for this since around February and have already had your start dates postponed once(yes you'd be very surprised with what I know) but we are about to head into one of the worst winters aviation has seen in a long time and nobody knows what the future has in store!

I do sincerely hope that your course goes ahead, I still remember when I was about to start and the shear excitement I felt on the lead up to the TR, I would have been sick at the thought of being told that I was getting postponed! So I really wouldn't wish that upon you at all!

You will know within probably the next 6 weeks or so whether or not it's going ahead, this will be around the time that your contracts are issued so if you get them I reckon you should be okay! Until then though best of luck with whatever your doing and I hope it works out for you!

Regards,

[Swinglow]

Thanks for the head's up RYR and proud!

As Im scheduled for oct this is certainly not good news.. If I may ask, where did you hear this? Just a flight deck rumour or anything more solid?

[LAX]

RYR n proud.

Is this an MOL love in?

Obviously not been in the company long enough?

Had any unpaid leave lately?

How about promotions, upgrades and transfers cancelled?

This is not rumor = fact in the uk.

Excitement - really?

Guys n girls save your 30k. It will go along way in other companys.

[Callsign Kilo]

LAX makes valid points to a certain extent.

I have been on line with FR for over a year now. One thing that sorely disappoints me is seeing people unprepared to own up to the realities of life as a pilot in Ryanair. You have to go in to the job with eyes wide open. Too many people let themselves down on this front.

My TR course consisted of a great number of individuals who believed FR was the answer to all their wants and desires. They had an overinflated opinion of how much money they would make, how long it would take them to command, what base they would fly from and how they would be treated in general. It is these people who now are moaning to anyone who listens. They become part of the 'doom and gloom' rumour mill and feed all the FR haters with the ammunition which they crave.

I have often said 'Ryanair aren't perfect.' I have also said if you are realistic about the company, it isn't bad either. I'm not going to start a 'what's good and what ain't so good' thread - you can check my others posts on the subject should you want to? All I am going to say is that any newbee needs to own up to the fact that you could be treated in the same way as anyone else here. Unpaid leave happens when you don't want it to or least expect it, command upgrades get cancelled, one month you will fly 95 hours, the other month 45 hours, you may be based where you don't want to be, you may think you are getting as transfer and suddenly you aren't. Be prepared for it. It happens - not to every one, no way - but it happens.

So far I have been luckey. Things have went well enough. It hasn't been without its hardships but I was aware that the hardships were there beforehand. I know what path I'd like to take in the company and in all honestly it is a reality. There may be a few spanners thrown in the works along the way, you may as well plan for these rather than approach it with the 'it won't happen to me' attitude.

I'm sure some 'haters' will come back and laugh now. That I willingly signed up to all this. In all honesty I maintain that I don't regret it. I will fight my corner without ever becoming disillusional. FR works for me because I work within its pitfalls. I would prefer not to, but that's life. I maintain a pragmatic approach to it all. The airline business doesn't belong to idealists' and Ryanair certainly isn't for everyone.

Enough of my opinions. And remember they are just opinions and everyone is entitled to them. (Saving myself from death by pprune).

[RYR_and_proud]

LAX

Why is it that whenever anybody comes on here and sticks up for RYR or even show that they like them somewhat, they are accused of all sorts! It's sickening to be honest having to read some of the comments posted on here about us, and its the reason why this site is unfortunately getting such a bad name!

If you must know, I've been in this company 2 years now and I've loved every minute of it!

Yes I have had my unpaid leave recently and do you know what, it was great!!! I got the exact month that I requested off and spent 3 weeks of it visiting various ski resorts around the alps (highly recommend Chamonix) and spent the last week at home with my family! To be honest I cannot wait for my next month off!

Recent upgrade to F/O(3 stripes) went fine thank you for asking, just informed BRK about reaching 1500hrs and they took it from there - no problems whatsoever!! I've only transferred base once, and that too went without a hitch!

Regarding the UK, to be honest it doesn't bother me. I really don't feel that this is the right time to be trying to gain recognition and I have no interest in ever joining BALPA! Maybe a few years down the line when things have improved I might see this differently, but right now, I only have sympathy for the guys in the UK that don't want recognition and were dragged into this mess by others!

To quote you " Excitement - really?" All I can say is yes, and I really don't know what type of person would not get excited at the thoughts of starting any TR! This is exactly the reason why most of us even bother starting out in the first place, to get into the RHS of any jet! And with RYR it just so happens that most of there planes are brand new/ very young and ultra-modern! How couldn't you get excited?

When I look back, that 30K spent on the TR was probably the best choice I ever made, but thats just me! I'm not going to tell anyone what they should do with there money and its there choice in the end!

In relation to Callsign Kilos post any newbee out there should pay great attention to it! I have been able to paint a lovely picture of my time in RYR but thats just me, everyone calls me a lucky b*st*rd and I suppose when I think about it I am! Some F/O's with the same hours as me have had totally different experiences with the company and can't wait to leave. But most of these like CK said went in with their eyes wide shut!

Regards,

[jimmyjetplane]

Hi,

Sounds like you already know the answer to your question but are looking for some reassurance?!

There are plenty of candidates ahead of you waiting for TR dates.I would say the chances of you having a start date this year are zero.

If I were you I would wait to do your MCC.Even after a couple of months of doing the course, I would suggest it will start to become a distant memory!Currency is everything in this proffession,so better to do it as close to a confirmed start date as possible.Remember if you are offered a place,you should have a choice of dates,especially in these uncertain times! :=

Jimmyjetplane

[LAX]

ryr n proud

I am not bad mouthing the company. The job, flying, aircraft, training etc etc are great, the politics played by the management is rediculus. In return for loyalty its threats, threats, threats - you know it.

I agree balpas timing couldnt be worse and i dont agree with it either. But what is going on in the uk should concern you - what about your command upgrade, promotion or if you need to transfer bases for maybe a personal reason.

The point i am making to wanabees as an insider is right now is that with the politics being played out internally save your 30k, dont put yourself under financial pressure for RYR, sit tight and wait until the economy recovers and the job market starts to move.

[blackred1443]

:Eryanair is great.thats why so many experienced guys with jobs are desperate to join.unpaid leave,run by a tyrant,no permenant contracts,no permenant bases,employed by crookfield,no crew food, no tea no coffee,pay for your own lpc/opc,no pension,pay for your own uniform,airline continuously erodes your terms,no command upgrades in uk,live the dream:}

ps almost forgot,35k euro for all this.cheap at twice the price.can i join too please mr o leary sir?

[smiler68]

Blackred1443- I think you're missing the point, the title of this thread is 'Are Ryanair still taking on FO's', not 'Let's all have a moan about ryanair'. Blind as well as ignorant are we? You must be one hell of a touch typist ;)

[blackred1443]

i'm merely listing ryrs terms, now if you choose to see it as moaning my smiling friend then so be it.why would anyone want to moan about ryr,its truly a fantastic looking deal on paper.the blind/ignorant thing is quite amusing though, you have made me laugh today.pot and kettle and all that!:ok:

[MrHorgy]

Ok this is what makes me really angry - Blackred is incorrect.

Ryanair pilots are provided with a £5000 lump sum to cover sim travel, carparking, medical, licence and uniform costs. Those on Brookfield contracts are told BEFORE they sign the contract that their hourly rate is increased slightly to cover these expenses. I'd much rather get my 75.5 E an hour rather than say 65 and not have to pay for anything. I don't even drink the precious tea and coffee people harp on about until they are blue in the face.

There IS a pension at Ryanair. I am PERMANENTLY based where I choose to be - if I had a problem I would walk next door and ask the director of flight ops in person. After all, that's what he's there for.

Also, (I am willing to be corrected) my typerating was 28750E, including my base check. Other operators will charge a similar amount for a similar rating.

Oh, and one last note to pressman - I have no 15kt crosswind limit. That is applied to pilots with two stripes - it is not a function of hours on type. If you want the Ops Manual reference, I shall provide it.

Horgy

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Prostitutes defending their pimp.

WWW

[BongleBear]

at least prostitutes have jobs

[TheBeak]

MrHorgy, you talk like people are offered a choice as to whether they would like a Ryanair contract or a Brookfield contract.

my typerating was 28750E, including my base check

It's now 33000E I believe.

Other operators will charge a similar amount for a similar rating.


I am sure they do but proper ones don't make you pay at all. A reduced intial salary or bond is perfectly acceptable but paying like this is a disgrace, but anyway......

There IS a pension at Ryanair

On the Brookfield contract which is the only way for starters now? No I didn't think so.

Ryanair pilots are provided with a £5000 lump sum to cover sim travel, carparking, medical, licence and uniform costs. Those on Brookfield contracts are told BEFORE they sign the contract that their hourly rate is increased slightly to cover these expenses. I'd much rather get my 75.5 E an hour rather than say 65 and not have to pay for anything.

I'd rather have the £5K - a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.

You see it all depends on what spin you put on things.

Seriously, if Ryanair is the only way - do something else. Ryanairs style of recruitment is not sustainable, people are going to end out being VERY out of pocket, out of a job and without a leg to stand on.

WWW has summed it up nicely.

[blackred1443]

and prostitutes do get unpaid leave though....this could go on forever

ryr are exploiting people, and will continue to do so.this isnt an opinion its a fact.i work for a loco.i didnt pay for my rating,i dont have to fork out for my sim,im allowed be in a union with fear of death,im allowed drink as much tea and coffee as i can, i dont have to pay for my uniform, i get feed everyday at work though the quality isnt fantastic,im permenant thank god
this is all fact.you can dress it up whatever way you want but mol is exploiting the desperation of new cpl/meirs or the bank of mummy and daddy.

if ryr was that fantastic then why isnt it viewed as a career airline?
why is mol so terrified of balpa/ialpa?
and why oh why do people not leave ezy,ba,thomasccok,thomson or all the other reasonable carriers for ryr.....?because its crap

because its only the choice of the desperate.no reflection on the newbies.this is just a fact
mr horgy im at a loss at to why you want to defend it.ryr hasnt got the name it has for no reason.im not commenting on you its ryr.

[Mikehotel152]

If WWW's last comment likening pilots who work for Ryanair to prostitutes had been made on a different thread by someone who wasn't a moderator it would have been deleted as being vulgar.

Can we please limit this thread to comments relevant to the question posed by the original poster, rather than Ryanair bashing. Everyone knows the Ryanair/Brookfield deal isn't wonderful; and, yes, we all want to be employed on fantastic terms and conditions; the continuing carping just makes the anti-Ryanair posse look bitter, twisted, and about as charming as MOL himself.

Please change the record. The energy you chaps put into hating Ryanair is probably contributing to global warming!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No, the comment was specifically about Ryanair pilots being like prostitutes defending their pimp.

It's the pimp/prostitute relationship NOT the prostitution that was the point.

Take this discussion out of my playground if you want me to ignore it.

WWW

[MrHorgy]

Beak,

Where are these magical jobs where you don't pay for ratings? I applied for over 300 posts and got flat rejections from most. Even airlines who I knew were having problems filing cadetships from the Integrated pool wouldn't look at me, probably because I was "dirty" from being a modular student. I find the idea that people who apply to Ryanair are desperate highly offensive.

People miss the point. A reduced salary IS paying for your rating. Bonding is more acceptable, but if it means being paid £7,000 less a year for 4 years then how exactly am I losing out? You pay your money one way or another.

Fair enough on the TR front, I don't set the rules or the prices - but that's still less than Sigmar/Thomas Cook want for their program, and that doesn't come with a job offer (implied or not) at the end, yet no-one bashes them!

People STILL bang on about what they see as important - the availability of **** crew food on the company, a free tea or coffee here and there, and not paying for your uniform. This is chickenfeed. I'm more interested in roster stability, aircraft that don't break leaving me stuck down route, no deep night flying, and excellent and well implemented SOP's. Note the above statements apply to BRK or RYR contracts.

Why people don't see RYR as a career airline is anyones business and depends who you talk to. Most of the pilots i've flown with have been there a good few years, a lot of ex-KLM/Buzz guys, and some who flew the 200. O'Leary isn't scared of BALPA either, we won't get recognition this time around like before, and he'll sit in his padded chair laughing at us - AGAIN.

I'm quite happy to quote specific T&C's, or my experience to those on this thread who want to have meaningful discussion or want advice on what RYR is like, to the extent I can on a public forum. All I see is bash bash bash though in generalities from those who don't work for us and are cushy at other airlines. After all, when they are recruiting, i'm no doubt sure you'll be sucking cadets for every last drop.

Horgy

WWW - I'm surprised at your comment. I will defend RYR because they gave me a job, and continue to employ me when times are hard. If you think i'm prostituting myself then keep it to yourself.

[LH2]

It's the pimp/prostitute relationship NOT the prostitution that was the point.

Well, it's a terrible analogy, because in countries not as prudish as the UK where prostitution is an occupation like any other, prostitutes sometimes hire bodyguards for protection/image purposes, so your pimp/prostitute relationship either does not apply or is reversed.

It would have been better if you had said "office workers defending their dept. supervisor", or "flight instructors defending their CFI".

As for RYR I neither know nor care. :cool:

[blackred1443]

again its not blind hatred of ryr.as ryr destroys their employees terms it impacts on my job.as my employers tries to compete.so everyone that signs up to and puts up with the crap oleary and crookfield offer it has a direct impact on my job. the same job i pay balpa to try to protect its terms.

this isnt people having a moan or whinge about ryr.there are very valid reasons why ryr is slagged off.they are destroying the industry.they have started a race to the bottom.thats what newbees considering ryr need to be aware of. they gain short term with a few jet hours but lose long term as they are contributing to destroying the terms of the profession they want to join through desperation or the bank of mummy and daddy

[WallyWumpus]

Beak,

You are not technically wrong, the headline price payable is 33k, but after you reclaim the VAT (19%) you are only 28k(ish) out of pocket.

Wally.

[Deano777]

Only £28k? Is that all?

[Rhodes13]

blackred, easy offering 6 month 1000 pound a month contracts, flexwings or whatever its called, summer only commands. BMI offering pay to fly, BA starting openskies with terms much much lower than the incumbents. The likes of the charter operators offering pay to fly for the summer??

None of those are bringing this career to what it is today? It's all RYR's fault is it, lets all ignore the fact that RYR was NOT the first to do pay for type ratings.

I agree some of what it does isn't good but it does so within the rules of the land and within what people are willing to except. Frankly at the moment what choice do we have? Mass strikes? BALPA when they allowed Openskies to go ahead? Go to other airlines when they are reducing staff numbers?

[blackred1443]

i could be wrong but did ryr not start charging for type rating on the 200 in 2001, that would make them the first.or am i wrong.

most of what you mention ie the ezy scheme, or bmi pay to fly are all in response to what ryr has done.i could be wrong but im pretty sure ryr were the first to introduce most of these in this part of the world

[Rhodes13]

blackred wrong again.. pay for type rating were alive and well in the 90's and 80's so would you like to revisit that asertion? And how is BMI pay to fly retaliation to RYR seeing as according to the companies they offer different prodcuts at different price points, same with the charter market.

Easy also see themselves as being different to RYR so I'm failing to see how this was driven by RYR. For the record RYR doesn't offer 6 month contracts or summer only commands so they were not in fact started by RYR, perhaps you should be writing a post about how easy are reducing the industry terms along with BMI (who incidently renegged on a contracted pay rise earlier in the year)? :hmm:

Perhaps the answer you are looking for is that the accountants are in charge and will screw us all over with what ever means they can. But it's easier to blame the boys and girls at RYR because collectively we fail to see that the biggest problem with our industry. We are easy targets for the green fascists (taxes) and that CEO's etc are beholden to one thing only and that is profits at the expense of everything else!

[blackred1443]

well i stand corrected. im interested to know which jet operators started charging for type ratings in this part of the world.as for ryr not offer summer only command your quite correct again...instead they issue unpaid leave for the winter or am i wrong on this too.:}.

or should i say they enforce unpaid leave.look simple fact of the matter is ryrs terms are poor at best probably closer to appauling.they set the trend.

[MVE]

What job security does RYR offer these new contract pilots in the current environement?

The answer to the original question is NO, count yourself lucky.:ok:

[TheBeak]

Well, it's a terrible analogy, because in countries not as prudish as the UK where prostitution is an occupation like any other, prostitutes sometimes hire bodyguards for protection/image purposes, so your pimp/prostitute relationship either does not apply or is reversed.


That's a subjective opinion and I think it is a great analogy. As for what I think was sticking up for actual prostitution, that is absurd. Perhaps go and post on the Professional Prostitutes Rumour Network.

For what it is worth, as far as pay to fly schemes go, Ryanairs is by far and away the very best in terms of paying for a TR and line training in the rawest sense. Views on here are not personal, they are against a dreadfully unjust process which involves people working very hard and having to pay for the pleasure. To the people who have explored every avenue over perhaps 3 years and found Ryanair to be the only option it is perhaps justifiable and even sensible:eek: but to the weak individuals that come straight out of Oxford and the likes, and straight into Ryanair - you clearly have no faith in your own ability and you clearly have no self worth. You are destroying this profession and this industry.

[Reluctant737]

Job security at RYR is disgraceful. It must be as the only company making a huge profit (announced yesterday) this quarter when the competition are clutching at straws... It's easy to open your mouth, but let's look at the facts, they're the only ones obviously doing 'something' right...

[blackred1443]

the thing with ryr is just when you think the have finally sunk as far as they can go,they surprise you by sinking even further.then an even more amazing thing happen they get a load of newbees (sponsored by darling daddy) daft enough to sign up to the sh*& they offer.

and then they whinged about terms in the job being eroded......well dont bloody work for ryr then.

[Mikehotel152]

Only £28k? Is that all?

No, that's Euros, not Sterling.

If you can fly, fly. If you cant get out and leave it to the capable.

Isn't that what Ryanair cadets are doing: flying, building hours and experience. What alternative do you suggest? 'Capable'? Are Ryanair pilots somehow incapable; technically inferior or poorly trained? What a daft thing to suggest.

and then they whinged about terms in the job being eroded

Er, no, that's you whinging. None of the Ryanair pilots I personally know bother to read pprune because almost all the opinions on here regarding the reality of life within the company are so distorted by chinese whispering.

What job security does RYR offer these new contract pilots in the current environement?

The answer is 'none' because they're employed by Brookfield. It's probably a dodgy tax scam and the sooner the authorities put a stop to it, the better. In the meantime, I imagine Ryanair pilots join with their eyes open, knowing what they're getting into.

Where are these magical jobs where you don't pay for ratings?

A legitimate question and nobody seems keen to provide an answer.

Let's say a person has always dreamed of being a professional pilot and has worked hard to save the money to afford a career change. This perfectly decent person started training a few years back before there was a recession. They're now qualified and are faced with unemployment for 2-3 years until the market picks up sufficiently for airlines to consider 250 hour pilots or spending a further £30k in order to join Ryanair.

What are these pilots suppose to do? Are they supposed to go on the dole rather than take a reasonably well-paid job with Ryanair?

[WallyWumpus]

TheBeak and EI,

I don't understand your views, and I mean that in a genuine and non-critical way.

I wanted to be a pilot. I saved up the money, trained and then joined RYR paying for my type rating. There is no part of the deal that came as any surprise either before, during or after the training - this includes all of the little things often spoken of here such as ID's, uniform, pension, leave etc.

In years gone by I worked in IT (as appears to be the case with many late starting professional pilots), and for some of those years I contracted. This meant I had to buy my own clothes, pension, had no job security and was very much the "disposable hired help". All of this was obvious to me before I went into it and I made an individual choice to go ahead anyway.

I am a big believer in free market forces, and all I see is RYR exporing the same. There are comments made about RYR that I do not agree with, and there are things said about RYR which I honestly just don't understand, and your comments fall into the latter, and not first, category. There are no lies, smoke, nor mirrors in the RYR world, and I believe that the vast majority of my colleagues knew what they were signing up for. I consider myself to be a reasonably well-educated, mature and thoughtful person. Before committing my hard-earned money to OAA and eventually RYR I considered my options and went ahead with the course of action that seemed best for me. I love my job, and am happy with my choices.

I realise that the following might lead me down a path to dissatisfaction, and I may regret opening up the debate, but I am honestly open to persuasion towards your views if you are both willing to open up and share the logic behind your views. Where is it that you think I have gone wrong?


Wally.

[zerotohero]

People will probably fire back at you with "its people like you lowering T&C's for the rest of us and blah blah!"

its not people like him,, its the airline big wigs! they know people will pay now rather than bond so its a safer bet for them in a tough market to risk expanding still, the positive side of that is its safer for them to create MORE JOBS! cant argue thats a good thing

there will always be someone willing to do your job cheaper in any job you do because there are more workers than jobs in pretty much every field so why not take advantage of that! they would be daft not too! i took up flying to make money not friends and i am sure the airline share holders want money too, they will probably already have friends just as i do.

Ryanair might look like the bad guys,, but lets stand back and look at the fact that there one of the very very few operators making money still and hireing people,,, most others are failing because they have a flawed business model in todays market! adapt or die. (BA ANYONE!)

its as simple as two shops opposite offering the same product,, one is slightly cheaper than the other, which shop are you going to go for? there are two pilots wanting a job, one wants a free type rating and uniform and id and the other is happy to pay for his for a few years while still young enough to live at home or in a cheap apartment before buying a house and stuff a few years down the line ones training debts are paid, the airline will choose the latter as its safer for there bottom line and you know the guy is gonna work hard as he has his own financial interests in the company too and wont just bugger off to greener grass when offered, but if he does its no loss to them, in comes the next guy.

if you like the idea submit an application to ryanair if you meet requirements, if you dont,, apply elsewhere and pray that one day before its too late you get a shot at a job.

[TheBeak]

My point is this, people paying to fly, in the form of 33K for whatever it is you guys and girls get, is lowering Ryanairs operating costs. Hugely. Pilots, per hour, are a big cost in the equation of operating an airliner......at least they were. This inturn is making it increadibly difficult for other airlines to compete. Eventually they will all have to go a similar way. The result? Lower salaries and ever more impossible financial hill infront of anyone suitable to commence pilot training.

I agree it becomes justifyable to pay for the TR and job with Ryanair perhaps after a very good year oor two of looking without luck in finding ANY flying job. To come straight out of flight school and apply straight away to Ryanair is selling yourself and the rest of us short. But it's done now and wont be reversed. So we shall except it. People will always do it, it's it the way people have become.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I maintain its prostitutes and pimps. The relationship is clear and its fine and both parties are happy.

When the prostitute starts defending the actions of the pimp. Then I reach for my sick bag.


Many if not most airline pilots are often heard wondering why Ryanair pilots just don't grow a spine and join a union. I wouldn't like to comment. For Wannabes the RYR contract with Brookfield is the only game in town and thus the best game in town.

Best of luck,


WWW

[vitolino]

hello, i am planning to start my MCC in september, but then i heard that ryanair is not recruiting anymore, then I also heard that they will start interviewing again in october/december... does anyone know anything about recruitment dates? I dont want to do my MCC in september and then get an assessment maybe in april 2010... also, please, does anyone know something about MCC courses organized by ryanair? thanks

[McBruce]

WWW, you draw parallels but the very same is drawn for EZY with the CTC flexi crew, use them for 6 months and dispose of them as soon as they're entitled to some pay. The important note here is its not just RYR destroying this industry perhaps a time will come when the experienced guys will make a stance for our future colleagues, just like EZY/BMI guys said no to that ATP crowd.

[WallyWumpus]

I am not sure that I have read a significant number of posts "defending" RYR, although I am sure there are some exceptions to that.

The vast majority of posters seem to argue that RYR is a transparent, known quantity that people go into with their eyes open.

If I had chosen to be a doctor (although I am not bright enough) I would have had to fund a 5 year course. If I had wanted to be a lawyer (also not bright enough) it would have cost me a 3 year course. The only difference I can see is that these two careers would likely have led to full-time, and not contract employment, but as I said in an earlier post, I am personally used to contracting and have no problem with it.

At the risk of repeating myself - why are so many people unhappy with "market forces" dictating the declining T&C's of today, when we are happy with the same effects it has on other aspects of our lives? I think some of the answer lies in the stage of life of the opinion holder, and I'd like to draw a simplistic example from the housing market. I have friends who are first time buyers and who are absoulutely delighted house prices are falling. Equally, I know people whose children have left home, who are approaching retirement and who are sick with the fact their plans to trade down, take property profit as a pension are now looking unworkable. Both if these groups have a valid position, although they are at odds with each other.

My point (I think!) is this: I am not an economics graduate, my opinions are formed from a school education and susbsequent life experience. There is no evidence that the labour market is driven by gorups of employees 'growing spines' or joining unions, that world went away with the great work of the mighty Thatcher in the 80's. It is a different world today, and supply and demand rules. The self-sponsored Type Rating will stay around longer than pay to fly schemes, and they will be here for some time to come.

For my kicker I will say this - I am a graduate of the RYR scheme, and as I have said before I am happy. There is one over-riding consideration I must keep in mind when I write posts like this, and that is to be honest to myself even if it upsets you the reader. The key question I keep asking myself is - if I were MOL would I be doing it any different - and the answer is no.

Wally.

[blackred1443]

can you tell me what it is that makes you happy to work in ryr?what are the perks of your employer?

my problem with ryr is simply.im on a permenant contract with a loco, most new ryr employees are on a crookfield deal.so come this winter when leary decides due to seasonal variation he need less drivers he hands out lots of unpaid leave.now how does my employer compete with this.so the people that sign up to these it does have a direct effect on my job.it becomes less secure.

i dont quite understand why people take the crap oleary offers.these brookfield contracts werent designed to be good for the employee.its all to o learys advantage.

as for the tea and coffee thing and crew food, to be honest its the point of the matter.can you imagine your general office person turning up for work being told were going to lock you in a room for 12 hours and you can only eat food the you have prepared the nite before.its not humane

or yes you can use the carpark but it will cost you,your uniform...ya you have to pay for that,no we dont do pensions sorry,you will never be permanent,unpaid leave when ever we feel like giving it.im sure thats wonderful with a family and a mortgage to pay for.i read a post where someone said they loved theirs they went skiing, thats probably not the point, now is it.can you imagine 'ya sorry love the house is being repossessed but the good news is we're off to the alps'

im not saying that my employer is wonderful, far from it, but what i do feel is like a respected adult when i go to work.when i look at the ryr deal, i cant think of one reason why i'd want to work for them...its just not a career is it?

and everytime someone signs up to put up with their s:mad: its another nail in the coffin of a career we all worked so hard for.can you imagine doctors or lawyer putting up with this.or am i wrong again.

still waiting to find out who started these pay to fly type ratings in this part of the world in the 80s and 90s that i was so wrong about

[Rhodes13]

blackred try airberlin, as one of my former employers so wonderfully told me. Bought himself a jet type rating and was given a job with them. And more specifically in the Uk I seem to recall that BMI was offering type ratings back in the early 90's.

'Paying for type ratings is not new either; it was very common in the late '80s and early '90s when I was first looking at obtaining a commercial flying job. And even those lucky BA Cadets of yore effectively paid for their training and ratings through a reduced salary, just like the CTC cadets do now.' Quote was posted by scroggs in 2004 link here http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-141180.html

One only has to look to the mainland to see that the practise has been going on for years.

Question for you, how is it that the charter outfits through Alteon etc offering pay to fly and easy with summer only commands six months work on 1000 a month is acceptable but what RYR is doing is not? Or how about the thousands of contract jobs going in Asia or the Middle East of Africa are those not the same as what RYR is offering? Are you complaining about them as well?

As to why people take the deal, do you think its because its possibly the only deal on offer at the moment? Some of us do have to pay the bills you know! You seem suprised that a company and indeed any company looks after itself and its shareholders above all else please tell me this is not news to you?

[Stelios1984]

"mcc before interview

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hello, i am planning to start my MCC in september, but then i heard that ryanair is not recruiting anymore, then I also heard that they will start interviewing again in october/december... does anyone know anything about recruitment dates? I dont want to do my MCC in september and then get an assessment maybe in april 2010... also, please, does anyone know something about MCC courses organized by ryanair? thanks"

DON'T YOU GUYS SEE? - all this bickering is missing a legitimate question.. all of the people on here moaning about Ryanair are wasting their time. The SAD people are the so-called experienced pilots with all the time on their hands to go on a wannabe forum and moan about them.

While i'm here though, I would like to add that even though you pay all this money to train as a cadet for Ryanair, you are entitled to claim it all back through tax relief, quite rightly so too. So put that in your pipe and smoke it...

[Bealzebub]

While i'm here though, I would like to add that even though you pay all this money to train as a cadet for Ryanair, you are entitled to claim it all back through tax relief, quite rightly so too. So put that in your pipe and smoke it...

Really! Do explain how?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Yeah please do explain. I can't wait to hear this one. Claiming back your expenses incurred from being raped by Ryanair? You would need to be shagging Alastair Darling my poor deluded friend.


Many if not most airline pilots are often heard wondering why Ryanair pilots just don't grow a spine and join a union

And until they do, they will continue to destroy what is left of this profession and drag the rest of us down with them. Cue howls of derision from FR contracters.........

[Stelios1984]

Actually there is an agreement in place with Irish Inland Revenue whereby, as you are effectively your “own company”, you are able to claim €500 offset against tax in your paypacket each taxable month. Not to mention claiming other things such as mileage etc. etc. All legitimate and as in place already.

I don’t really need to go into too much more detail as clearly, you sad gits who come on the wannabe forum to slag off Ryanair, aren’t bothered!

[blackred1443]

whats sad about it,your on here too.are we all sad together.what else do you do on an airport standby other that whinge about ryr and listen to fairytales about claiming back expenses from brian comens government that helps o leary:}

[ford cortina]

Okay stellios, care to give us the link to the Irish Inland Revenue's web page that describes this deal? I cannot find it anywhere:eek:

[Reluctant737]

Stelios is correct. Every UK based colleague of mine (including moi) has reclaimed in this way. Common knowledge in the company.

'nuff sed.

[Bealzebub]

'nuff sed. Do you mean as in wink wink, tap the side of your nose!

Is this reluctance to clarify, based on HMRC IR 35 by any chance?

If so, it is not a secret and HMRC are very aware of the claims that have been made.

[MVE]

Roll on an HMRC investigation and hopefully putting a stop to this crap!:mad:

[MVE]

'contractors'.....mmmmm:confused::suspect:

[Stelios1984]

Actually this is perfectly ok... the long and short is, it is best for both parties. Brookfield enforce the fact that you pay tax in Ireland, in return for being able to claim this money back.

Looking at it another way... if you weren't allowed to do this it could be classed as illegal. You set-up as your own "company" and as a company you should be entitled to claim back expenses/tax on things like this, fuel etc. Think of this method as a compromise therefore.

Sorry guys, but it's quite enjoyable to see you squirm! Something decent to come out about a Ryanair course has got you all in a spin!

[jimmyjetplane]

Has anyone ever been able to claim tax back after paying for a type rating?If so how and on what grounds?

I am asking for factual confirmation of this, not speculation, rumour or bull s*** round about answers please.

[someday somehow]

http://http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=jul&story=fin-en-310709

Does this mean recruitment will restart? There can't be enough in the holding pool for 55 new aircraft?

[LAX]

Good news boys n girls. UK base freeze lifted from 1st Sept 09.

FO promotions to Commander/SFI will restart making some room for those starting out.

A word of caution, the Pilot turnover rate is virtually ZERO through all ranks and those having to borrow 30K think long and hard about what your getting into,desperate as you may be for a job this is a company forcasting a reasonable profit - in a downturn.

[heli_port]

Yes they are, they'll need your cheque book now more than ever ;) Ryanair is to switch or close nine of the 10 routes it currently operates from Manchester Airport, blaming the airport's refusal to lower its charges. BBC NEWS | Business | Ryanair closing Manchester routes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8205445.stm)

[mason]

How do you figure that.
You pay CAE for the training €27500 then Ryanair ask CAE for the money?

Do please explain ?

[MVE]

CAE charge for TR - Actual/Normal charge for TR = Ryanair income.:ok:

[woofly31]

With the lifting of the UK base freeze does this mean new entry FO's may get a UK base and not posted to a European one. Or does it just apply for people waiting to get back to the Uk from abroad? How many acft will be based at LBA if any?:ok:

[mason]

MVE you obviously dont understand how ryanair cadets pay for there type rating.
They pay the training company direct.

[potkettleblack]

Yes but do you think that FR "give" the business to CAE for free or could you conceive that an introduction fee might just be paid across.

[LAX]

2 Aircraft at LBA.

Now that the uk bases are unfrozen positions become available all the time due to promotions and transfers. Timing is everything.

Only exception is capt positions at STN, there is a waiting list of approx 1 year for transfer.

[Airsey]

Thanks for the useful information and insight you are giving us LAX. Much appreciated.

[MVE]

Mason don't be so naive, next you'll be telling me that Brookfield and RYR are seperate companies and RYR pay the Brookfield pilots the same as real pilots? :ok: and don't profit out of them at all.....;);)

[mason]

MVE when you have evidence il listen to it .
I dont listen to speculation.

[stepdown]

Mason, it is entirely logical that Ryanair get a kickback for the TR. Ryanair themselves determine the price for the TR and they were responsible for the latest price increase rather that CAE.

If you look at the evidence, it is mostly Ryanair F/O's that are instructing. They are paid by Ryanair (or Brookfield) and so all Ryanair do is hire the sims from CAE. Now Ryanair would be quite foolish to allow CAE pocket €33k odd for the hire of the sims and a few weeks of ground school.

Secondly, Base training is carried out by Ryanair which is part of the TR. Obviously this is also a substantial cost which Ryanair are fully reimbursed for. I've no ideal how much money they make out of running TR courses but from what I've been told CAE make very little out of it.

[MVE]

Mason, best of luck with the job search but you will need to take your head out of the sand to spot the opportunities :ok:

[mason]

MVE cheers for the best wishes.
But I already have a job thanks :ok:.

Now back to the original title of the thread.

[McBruce]

The cost you pay covers the safety training at RYR's EMT facilities and base training. Your payment to the training provider, CAE/SAS covers this, so money swaps between the provider and the airline.