Foreign Students Training in Oz.

[DUXNUTZ]

Seems all is not well with the foreign student infatuation at Bankstown.

Foreign students seek flight school refunds | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25743751-23349,00.html)

[D-J]

Seems like another case of foregin students paying big bickies up front to get a student visa & then spending a lot of time down at the pub or out at the night clubs. Then at 'graduation' time expecting to be passed because they've spent the $$ :zzz:

if they were performing & flight school wasn't upto the mark, it begs the question why they didn't start making noise after even 6 months :ugh:

[das Uber Soldat]

Its been going on for years, I've seen it at almost every big school in ysbk. These idiots come over from India and assume our society works exactly the same dodgy way theirs does.

So they pay their money, get drunk, get arrested, roll their cars, spend no time studying at all and hence display a predictably horrific standard in an Aircraft and then demand a CPL so they can return for their 'real' training back in India. Why? Well I paid my money dammit so I am owed my license!

I hope they get bankrupted in the Supreme court and have to paddle home.

:)

[glenb]

Declaring my hand. I am part owner in a flying school, and yes we do have some overseas students. It is a relatively small part of our business, but nevertheless important. The overseas students are no different than local students. I would suggest that the percentage of overseas that play up is probably no different to the local students. Perhaps the flight training industry needs to do some sort of screening prior to accepting enrolments, perhaps we need to address these issues much earlier on in their training and do something about it, perhaps we should be more selective in the agents we use to recruit students. Many of them give potential students unrealistic expectations. Finally, if we want to train students from overseas perhaps we should be more culturally sensitive and recognise that not everyone in the world perceives things the same as we do.

I am not suggesting that the students are right and the school wrong, or vice versa. We dont know enough of the facts to comment.

[WIKI44]

@ das uber soldat - Thank you for painting every international student with the same brush. You display some incredible ignorance in your post. Some international students may behave as you have mentioned, but then again so do some local students.

I have also seen first-hand the complicity of instructors in perpetuating the problem. Part of the instructors job is to instill discipline, professionalism and make the students aware of the great responsibility of being a pilot - along with the enjoyment and sense of achievement it can entail. Being an instructor does not consist of just rocking up for a booking and going for a bit of a fly. There is a LOT of work that needs to be done on the ground, and very few instructors make the effort of getting that done. The ones who do put in the work, generally end up moulding competent students. It seems like as long as the hours are ticking over, some instructors don't complain.

This is not to mention the flight training organizations, who, once having identified incompetent or unmotivated students, are generally not inclined to refunding remaining credit and asking the student to leave. By the way, the contracts demanding advance payment of fees are not drafted by the students, but rather by flight training organizations. Many international students are ignorant of the fact that there is absolutely no legal requirement or visa condition for having to pay large sums of money in advance. Flight training organizations prey on this ignorance.

I assume you have worked at one or more flight training organizations. Would you agree that the FTOs you have worked for were consistently able to deliver the product that they advertised? What do you make of all the talk of "airline training" that the FTOs keep advertising?

I have met students who complain and bitch like the ones mentioned in the article, and some of them have a very poor attitude towards their studies, leading lifestyles that are not compatible with the goals they are trying to achieve. Some of those who complain, however, do have a valid argument. Without facts it is impossible to form any conclusions, and it displays a great deal of prejudice on your part having such opinions.

Remember back to your PMI course. There is a lot an instructor can do to help his students succeed.

I think there are a lot of things which can be improved, and that includes students, instructors and FTOs taking responsibility

@glenb. I totally agree with you. You obviously have experience with students -international or otherwise, and have spent time thinking about the issue.

wiki

[BKFI]

In the case of this particular school, unfortunatley, the students claims are largely correct. I know of a few students there who turn up day in day out and are not allocated any lessons. One student has just achieved a GFPT after two years on a full time course! I believe the official booking process is 2 ab-initio lessons per week for each full time Intl student...

I think most people here know the going ons at that place, but its a shame that is our image as a country for international training that suffers.

[YoDawg]

its a shame that is our image as a country for international training that suffers

You've been listening to the media too much. They've filled your head with rot. Do you really care if they burn an aussie flag in Bombay? Our image hasn't suffered a jot. When they sort out all their own issues of poverty, public education, institutionalised caste-based racism, over-population, health-care, rampant nepotism, crime, terrorism, etc... then they can start complaining about decent places like Aus.

Mr Pindoria said students were forced to sit under a gum tree on plastic chairs

Looxury. Back home in Bombay they'd have to fight 500,000,000 others for that shady spot under a tree. Give 'em back their money so they can hit the road.

[PlankBlender]

they charged me $35,000 to get to 36 hours over 14 months

Wow, ab initio in a Chieftain, noice :}:ok:

and eventually stopped attending the school.

That's a little silly if you've paid a significant amount up front.. :rolleyes:

Slow news day obviously, a pathetic attempt by some underworked journo to jump on the 'Indians get systematically beaten up and ripped off in Oz' bandwagon. Shame on you for promulgating this sensationalist rubbish. I hope someone will hold you responsible when the violence escalates and more people get hurt. :=

[das Uber Soldat]

@ das uber soldat - Thank you for painting every international student with the same brush. You display some incredible ignorance in your post. Some international students may behave as you have mentioned, but then again so do some local students.
Thanks for assuming I was referring to all Indian students. The very point that shoots these idiots down is that their peers often sail smoothly through their course because they put some effort in. But there is no question that in 99% of cases, the ones that take 3 years to do a GFPT and the like simply come out here for a holiday. They honestly expect that if they pay the money, they are owed the license.
I have also seen first-hand the complicity of instructors in perpetuating the problem. Part of the instructors job is to instill discipline, professionalism and make the students aware of the great responsibility of being a pilot - along with the enjoyment and sense of achievement it can entail. Being an instructor does not consist of just rocking up for a booking and going for a bit of a fly. There is a LOT of work that needs to be done on the ground, and very few instructors make the effort of getting that done. The ones who do put in the work, generally end up moulding competent students. It seems like as long as the hours are ticking over, some instructors don't complain.
Thank you for painting every instructor with the same brush. You display some incredible ignorance in your post. Some Instructors may behave as you have mentioned, but then again…..

This is not to mention the flight training organizations, who, once having identified incompetent or unmotivated students, are generally not inclined to refunding remaining credit and asking the student to leave. By the way, the contracts demanding advance payment of fees are not drafted by the students, but rather by flight training organizations. Many international students are ignorant of the fact that there is absolutely no legal requirement or visa condition for having to pay large sums of money in advance. Flight training organizations prey on this ignorance.

I assume you have worked at one or more flight training organizations. Would you agree that the FTOs you have worked for were consistently able to deliver the product that they advertised? What do you make of all the talk of "airline training" that the FTOs keep advertising?
Assumption correct. I don’t know what ‘airline training’ is supposed to mean, but if you’re saying that students come out here expecting to be trained as an airline captain then I don’t agree that this is a commonly held belief. Are FTOs able to consistently deliver what they promise? Well what they promise at my school is a CPL and various bits in a set period of time depending on student performance. Every student that I’m aware of that’s put in an effort, taken the concept of being a pilot seriously and actually shown up has gone through the course in a fair amount of time, call it 12 months roughly. You can’t help someone if they’re not motivated to learn.

I have met students who complain and bitch like the ones mentioned in the article, and some of them have a very poor attitude towards their studies, leading lifestyles that are not compatible with the goals they are trying to achieve. Some of those who complain, however, do have a valid argument. Without facts it is impossible to form any conclusions, and it displays a great deal of prejudice on your part having such opinions.
ok ? I think it sounds more like you’re trying to fish to see where I work.

Remember back to your PMI course. There is a lot an instructor can do to help his students succeed.
Could you be any more patronizing? There is a lot an instructor can do, but with many students who come over here from India, learning to fly was Mum and Dads idea, not little Vinesh, they’re away from their parents and rigid discipline back home, they can drink, they can do what they like more or less and so they will. Faced with that kind of scenario, often its simply impossible to get these kids to put the work in. Laying the blame with the instructor in these situations is ridiculous. Doing so would display a great deal of prejudice on your part.

I think there are a lot of things which can be improved, and that includes students, instructors and FTOs taking responsibility
Sure, all parties have room for improvement.

@glenb. I totally agree with you. You obviously have experience with students -international or otherwise, and have spent time thinking about the issue.

wiki

Ultimately we don’t have all the facts but what I’m sick of is the media harping on about these hard done students, when often they couldn’t have cared less when they were training, and now that its home time and they haven’t been gifted their license, they stamp their feet and demand whats owed to them. It’s a 2 party deal this flight training business and both sides have to put the effort in.

[Fonz121]

I also believe that it's probably been brought about more by the school then the students.
All they want to do is get the numbers in, take their money and worry about how to deal with the vast numbers of students later. Full time students should be flying once a day (weather permitting).

They're all a bunch of crooks at the BK sausage factories. They treat the students and intructors like sh*t and get away with it because the Instructors don't have a whole lot of options (especially at the moment) and the foreign students have usually paid a significant amount upfront. Not to mention sending foreign students "solo" to get command time with an instructor in the right seat to make sure they don't prang it (which was at another BK sausage factory, not aerospace just for the record).

They will probably have their VETAB approval revoked soon if they're not careful.

[jatayu]

There is another group of people who probably are more to blame than students or FTO's. The agents that promise the world to the students (/parents) are probably the root cause of this discontent. Their selling involves a trust network, so the parents and students do not end up doing the due diligence they should. They would match a student with an FTO with no concern about hopes, aspirations or capabilities - just a fat commission.

A few of the posters here seem to have an unfortunate view about foreign/indian students. Maybe it is the perception that their path has been easy - parents are paying, compared to our guys here. This is not a profession in which these views would take you very far. Who has been able to choose the nationalities of people they work with, bosses, or even pax?

[das Uber Soldat]

Its not about choosing who you fly with. I have no problem flying with Indian students, or any students, as long as they value the opportunity they have been given and actually put some work in. Some of the best, most hardworking and professional students i've had have been Indian.

I only complain about those who do nothing, then stamp around like the world owes them something. This isn't India, it doesn't work that way.

[WIKI44]

@das uber soldat - Perhaps I did misunderstand or misinterpret your post. I can see that I sounded patronizing, but it was not my intention. My apologies.

I, like you, have no sympathy for those who put in little work, achieve a poor standard, and still believe they are owed a licence. That scenario might or might not be the case here. These guys should be given the chance to prove their case.


"I hope they get bankrupted in the Supreme court and have to paddle home"

I instead hope a thorough investigation takes place and that justice prevails!

wiki

[das Uber Soldat]

Sorry for the sarcastic reply on my part Wiki.

I agree, the courts will decide this, they have the facts.

[tubby one]

das Uber - regretably not. if you believe that the court is interested in revealing the truth you will sadly be most disappointed. the court action will determine who is most 'inside' the law as it applies, if the truth is revealed it will be more by chance than anything else. if you can get hold of 'just culture' by simon dekker - it will take you to a whole new understanding:confused:

[das Uber Soldat]

An Ice Hockey film is going to help me uncover the hidious conspiracy that the illuminati control our court system and have the evil agenda to never let the truth be known of 9 indian students vs a tiny flying school that may ultimately decide the fate of us all?

[BKFI]

Foreign students take aim at flying school (http://www.smh.com.au/national/foreign-students-take-aim-at-flying-school-20090710-dg32.html)

[das Uber Soldat]

Last week the students' first legal attempt to recover their fees failed in the NSW Supreme Court. They were told that their statutory demand was the incorrect legal avenue for seeking a refund


The students haven't exactly hired the sharpest legal aid in the business. The requirements in issueing a statutory demand are that there is absolutely no possibility of contest. So now they have to do it all again, except traditionally in a proceding such as this, they will have to pay the named parties costs.

Intelligence fail. :ok:

[OhForSure]

das: please do continue, I'm enjoying every word of this! :ok:

And, in my most humble opinion, the general consensus here is entirely accurate. These types of students call in sick on an absurdly regular basis, make every excuse under the sun to not go flying and do absolutely zero studying. Then they demand to be able to fly solo, or be put up for a test when their flying abilities are abysmal.

In my opinion, it's a cultural disparity. At an entirely different school at YSBK, I witnessed an Indian CPL licensed pilot fly worse than my dog could. And there is absolutely no exaggeration there on my part. He was in Aus to do his multi-rating, gave up after 2 flights and told the CFI he just wanted him to sign the documents, give him the rating, and the school could keep the money and he'd go home to fly for Air India. "That's the way we do things in India", he said.

Wow.

-PS- I must state, that this story doesn't portray all Indian students, some of them are brilliant, even better than many local students... unfortunately they're in the vast minority. I hope this situation can be resolved for both parties.

[Zap Brannigan]

Gotta say I agree with most of what has been said.

This definitely shouldn't be taken as a dig at Indian students- there are a lot of very good students that I have had the pleasure of teaching over the years. These students are hard working, motivated and keen to learn. Unfortunately it's the younger and less mature students that usually struggle.

Often this is the first time these kids have been away from home after what has probably been a very sheltered life. So when they get here and are able to live away from the direct supervision from their parents, flying often takes a back seat to having fun.

Of course the schools will have no interest in trying to 'carry' them through their training (at least the good schools) and hence these students under achieve. And of course when questioned about the time taken and cost for their training the students will tell their parents a very different version of the truth which inevitably blames the school.

I hope these students will one day learn to take responsibiliity for their own shortcomings. It's all part of this 'someone else's fault' attitude that is so prevalent in this day and age. My 2c.

[WIKI44]

The second article mentions the following:

"A SYDNEY flying school was using unqualified trainers to teach large numbers of Indian students in a "critical" breach of standards, the State Government's education watchdog says."

"...the use of trainers who do not have the qualifications required by the Australian Quality Training Framework was considered to be a critical non-compliance that required action."

What sort of qualifications are they referring to? I don't think any organization would be stupid enough to hire instructors without the appropriate licences and ratings.

I'm guessing the article is instead referring to some other specific training required by employees of registered training organizations (RTOs). I remember vaguely, that during my training, all the instructors in my school underwent a week long cert. iv course. I seem to remember that none of them enjoyed it very much!

I'd be interested in specifics anyone can provide. Cheers!

wiki

[HardCorePawn]

flying often takes a back seat to having fun.

Eh?? I thought they were the same thing!! :}

Maybe I haven't been at it long enough for the fun to wear off ;)

[KRUSTY 34]

Gotta' agree with you there HardCore'.

I've been at it for 25years, and I still think it's the most fun you can have with your clothe's on!:E

[Foyl]

IMHO I think that there's a responsibility on the part of the training organisation to set clear goals, and a responsibility of the trainee to meet those goals - wherever they come from. And if they don't, then the CPL wannabee needs to be shown the door and given a refund of the remaining $. Preferably at the point where it's clear it's not going to work, rather than when the $ run out.

Apologies if you do, again it's just that I haven't seen much discussion on that point here. Would be nice to see some positive discussion on what your organisation does in these situations or what you've seen work... anybody?

Of course, that is kinda dependent on the organisation having the appropriate qualifications in the first place!

[HardCorePawn]

Over this side of the ditch... after the initial "goldrush" on Student Loans and CPL courses left a lot of 'wannabes' with massive loans, half completed licenses/diplomas and whinging parents... they changed the rules.

Basically, a school is allocated a certain number of "funded" positions, that I am led to believe is, at least partly, based on the success of the previous year(s).

This puts some of the onus back on the individual training establishments to vet the candidates (tests, interviews etc) and ensure they have a reasonable chance of success. Otherwise their allocated positions get reduced which means less "easy" $$$$

As I see it, the foreign students are effectively self-funded, so there is no real onus on the training establishments to do this... and they can just take anyone with enough cash, regardless of their ability and likelihood of success.

I know here in NZ, the foreign students need to get a student visa to undertake flight training. Is it the same in AU? If so, maybe the government could look at limiting the number of student visas allocated to a particular school, again based on previous performance. In this way, the schools would have to be a bit more careful who they take... and might take a bit more interest in the progress of the students.

Additionally, the interview and testing process would hopefully weed out the "slackers"... so you're left with the ones who are actually going to make an effort.

It is after all, a two way street...

[das Uber Soldat]

Thats actually a pretty solid plan. I find it hard to be a bunch of kiwi socialists came up with that one :}

[HardCorePawn]

Well... I was going to say that after proof-reading my post, it sounds entirely too logical to actually be implemented by any government :oh:

But of course they came up with the student loan funded cap AFTER their kids had all gone through the system and benefited from it :P

This letter (http://www.beehive.govt.nz/node/18006) is dated October 2003... apparently Mr Maharey's daughter was on the fully funded Student Loan CPL course in 2002 :rolleyes:

And I believe Dr Cullen had his daughter on the course prior to that...


Still, I doubt they'll cap the visa's anytime soon... too much $$$ to be had methinks... especially in these times :suspect: